I see.... I thought we were talking about my Nazis & kittens photo.

Nope, I don't see any major problems with either of them. The kitten is essentially just a historical photo and certainly contains nothing at all offensive (besides the fact they're SS soldiers).
The second is just plain weird, and again we have the context thing happening - there's no doubt at all these people are weird and don't in any way conform to the rest of society.

The marines on the other hand are respresentative of a wider and supposedly respected group. They, unlike the individuals in the milk photo who can't really be identified with any respected, mainstream group, should, nay, MUST be hold themselves to a MUCH higher standard.

But I'm sure I don't need to tell anyone else here any of that. It's all fairly standard and obvious I'd think.

It does in Australia. Many, many older Australians don't like seeing or talking to Japanese tourists even today. Quite a few Australian films have been made about Australia's battles with the Japanese during WWII, but very few about Australia's battles against the Axis forces in Europe. There's still a lot of bad feeling about what the Japanese did to our POWs. I'd say there is a much greater legacy of hate here in modern Australia over the Imperial Japanese forces compared to the forces of Nazi Germany.

Very, very true.
And here I am now, an ex Australian solider chasing the most beautiful woman on the planet, who just happens to be Japanese.... :s

I do see something wrong with USMC scout snipers using the exact same style of letters as the SS did for one reason in particular. Intent.
Forget all the other bullshit about people making a fuss about it, lets look at the intent of some scout snipers to use the EXACT same style of lettering as used by an organization that helped to make murder an industrial process.
What is the intent of certain USMC scout snipers to use the same style?

I do agree that there is too much made of the Nazis in many cases but in many other cases there are still people living now who have memories of the atrocities of WW2. It's all about having some empathy for your fellow human beings. If certain scout snipers don't have that quality, then what the hell are they in the USMC for considering it's stated aims and beliefs?

Yes, exactly. Well put. I used the same word at the bottom of post #14.

And when you catch her you'll 'put her to the sword', no doubt :D. Good luck, champ!

The fact that the Nazis receive much more attention than the Imperial Japanese throughout most of the West (with the sentiments of our Aussie and Kiwi cousins excepted and respected) in no way, shape, or form diminishes the crimes of the Nazis or the Japanese. I'm not sure why you bring up the Imperial Japanese, Waiting; typically, though, such a tactic is meant to ameleorate the crimes of the group or individual receiving the negative attention. "Johnny beat a puppy to death, and he doesn't get nearly as much crap as I get for having burned a kitten. I'm being mistreated," is the usual line of thinking.

The Nazis deserve every bit of bile humanity can heap upon them. Without a doubt, there are other groups who have committed heinous crimes on large scales. Whether the Imperial Japanese or any other group in history receives the negative attention they deserve is immaterial in assessing the Nazis. Their evil stands on its own (de)merits. I'd be happy to discuss the evil done by other groups and/or ideologies. Goodness knows such a vein is deep and rich. However, I reject out of hand any suggestion that the Nazis somehow must be given a go because the world isn't harsh enough on the Imperial Japanese, Stalin's Soviet Union, the Khmer Rouge, the Rwandese of the 1990's, the Mongols, or whoever. Evil is evil, and it does not get graded on a sliding scale.

Waiting, I'm glad you have a sense of humor about the photo. I seriously thought about exercising my prerogative as a moderator in this instance. Good on you!

I'm saddened that you don't seem to understand the impact of the photo at the top of this thread. I'm troubled that you're confusing the freedom of speech enjoyed by American citizens with the role and responsibilities of members of the US armed forces. I'm saddened by your apparent indifference to the potential impact of such an image on the USMC. The integrity of the Corps is struck a blow by the implication that an ideology alien to the American way of life has taken root in the USMC. This is no garden variety freedom of speech issue. The use of Nazi symbology begs the question of what this unit stands for. If the unit's use of Nazi symbols is tolerated by the Corps, then question of values gets applied to the Corps as a whole. I'm no Marine, but I love the Corps too much to be tolerant of a pack of thoughtless chuckleheads--elite thoughtless chuckleheads, but thoughtless chuckleheads nonetheless--who inspire doubt in the sacred connection between the USMC and the American way of life. We can talk all we want about the pros and cons of the use of the Confederate flag by civilians, but the military doesn't get the freedom of expression it defends.

+1. You expressed what I am thinking and feeling better than I could myself.

Speaking of a former US Army recruiter, and one that was doing said recruiting during the bad old days of the height of the Iraq war, in a sad way, I am not truly all that shocked by seeing this.

During the 2005/2008 period recruiting was so bad, we would enlist anyone who would pass muster in order to make numbers, and when you work in an area that is known for its Neo-Nazi organisations - and your superiors inform you the only way to get out of the 8 in the morning to midnight or later shifts Mon-Sat was to ignore those associations - provided that there was no legal issues - and put them in uniform, and we had similar issues in the gang areas of the larger cities.

Gang/Extremist infiltration of the US Armed forces is a known problem, and only since the economy went to the crapper have Recruiting been able to turn those sorts away.

Kinda sad it took the recession to allow better recruits to enter service instead of whatever we could drag out of the gutter.

The man who claims to have "outed" the photo gives his reasons why here:

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012...leblower-talks

Oh my god. :rolleyes: Leave it up to some holocaust extremist to blow everything out of proportion. The sig runes being a symbol of the holocaust? mmmmmmmmm I don't think so. He was in the cav and wore a stetson, ok so did Custer and a lot of dudes that tried to "extreminate" the natives. Hello pot this is kettle.:D I hate guys like this. They are right up there with with the Mothers of America and Al Sharpton. I wish Marine Corps told him to piss off and hung up the phone.

Sorry, but in my opinion, the Holocaust was rather extreme, and the SS sigils are pretty much up there as symbols of the systematic extermination of millions of people in a far closer manner than a stetson is with the extermination of the Native Americans.

I think you were right Waiting, it's time this thread was shut down before we go back over ground that has already caused offence.

No, I don't think it should be shut down. Talking about this is good. It explains reasoning from all sides. I don't see why someone should be offended. There's no degrading of anyone going on really. It's hot topic. It's big bockbuster shit. It always is.:argue:

I was hoping to keep this discussion going in a constructive direction but this is starting to get silly. WFS, your posts are starting to smack of Holocaust Denial. You are welcome to share your dissenting opinions here, but the Holocaust and wider Nazi attrocities and the participation of SS troops in both are backed by mountains- literally mountains- of evidence.

Let's get real and address this topic in a mature, responsible way, or this thread will be shut down.

Part of the problem I see with that article from the guy who blew the whistle on the thing is that he seems to want military careers to end over this. That, in my opinion, is silly. So they used a flag with SS on it. Did they violate any rules? Did they torture anyone? Did they needlessly kill people who shouldn't have been killed? No.

If the flag is a hot topic for too many, take the flag away or tell the unit to pick a new design. Careers shouldn't end of the display of a flag, even one with a runic SS on it. Will the Marines call bullshit? Most likely. But when political correctness is running the show, that's what the military has to do. Maybe the Commandant of the Marine Corps needs to address the troops and tell them to clean their nose, spit shine their shoes, and sharpen their gig lines for a while. Keep clean while all of the attention is directed on their every little action. Then, when (as usually happens) public opinion forgets about the military, they can go back to the old ways.

I almost hate to think what would happen if the public ever saw some of the symbols used by other special forces.

Careers shouldn't end over this act of poor judgment. However, some pee-pees should be slapped. The unit should be told that they have to get rid of all Nazi-inspired regalia. Ideally, the Corps will release a public statement by the unit leadership to the effect that they never intended for the American public or the people of the world to assume that they or any part of the USMC incorporates any of the values of Nazi Germany. Then we can move on.

As to the recruiting woes, I agree that we're faced with a real cultural problem. By bringing some of our society's undesirables into the fold for a single enlistment, we create problems for civil society down the road. Training with guns, and all that.

While I'm not willing to take on any of the baggage of the whistle-blower, I will say that association with the Holocaust is damning. Willing, I'll try to put the problem in personal terms in the hopes that you will understand why this particular act of free expression is such a problem for so many. The Nazis were hard-core racists. Racism was built into the ideology. My wife, being black and Asian, is about as far from the Nazi ideal as possible. American Neo-Nazis today, using the same scheme of symbols as the Marines in the photo, proudly proclaim their willingness to follow in the footsteps of the SS and murder their fellow Americans for being black, Asian, Hispanic, First Tribes, Arabic, or whatever. By Nazi standards, my children are mongrels. The Nazis would very happily throw my wife and children into the ovens. By their own admission, so would current American Neo-Nazis. I'm a blood traitor, so I'd get similar treatment. Now the USMC, which is supposed to be champion of the Constitution and the American way of life, appears to be tolerant of a nest of Neo-Nazis in its ranks. Do you see the problem? This isn't a matter of a white guy using the n-word in public. This is a question of values. What exactly do these Marines stand for? If the Corps doesn't deal with the problem expediently, then tens of millions of non-white and mixed-race Americans are obliged to ask whether it's their USMC or just the USMC of the Aryan-Americans and whoever among the white population they deem worthy of having a future.

I got that it was a joke. Just one in bad taste, and rife with logical fallacies that screamed to be pointed out.

Some people can't see the problem, and never will. No matter how succinctly or eloquently it's explained to them. For them, it's either a joke, an exaggeration (how the hell do you 'exaggerate' millions of corpses?), or just plain didn't happen (clue: Photoshop didn't exist in 1945; the pictures and testimony are real). Facts (and reality) conflict with their cherished notions of what they'd like the world to be.

I'm not going to rehash the arguments already made by posters who can and have done so more eloquently than I can.

but supposedly the runic SS logo has been in use by USMC scout snipers for some time now, have there never been any USMC scout snipers of Jewish descent?

Where did I say the Holocaust didn't happen? Sure it happened and there was personel from the SS formations involved, but that doesn't not make everyone or everything dealing with the SS about the Holocaust. Yes this guy was/is a Holocaust extremist. He eats, sleeps, and shits Holocaust. That is my point. I don't subscribe to the "its ok for these guys to do this, but not these guys over here" camp. Waffen SS were combat troops. It's the media that has lumped them all in the same block cheese and we have swallowed that misconception time and time again.

Well that's just too bad, because I thought it was funny, irregardless of the poor logic - which was the point of the humor.

Yes, I remember one from the 7th he was I guess a bad ass- a arrogant dickhead, but they said he was a machine. I never saw a black Marine in STA platoon, but I'm sure there is one out there. Asian I seen and latino too. The Marine Corps in general is white and latino heavy for whatever reason. The sig runes have nothing to do with racist beliefs for these men. It's more a bad ass thing. A killer elite if you will. Snipers install fear and apparently so does sig runes.

Really? For me the SS runes instill revulsion, not fear.

WTF, you and I might know what the Waffen SS was, and how they were distinct than the SS that ran the death camps, but the general public does not. Symbols often transcend their origins and, for better or for worse, the SS lightening bolt runes are inseparably linked to the Holocaust, mass murder, and genocide. If you don't understand this, or refuse to accept it, then there's no more that anyone here can say that will convice you of the foolishness and bad taste (...at best; rank racism/anti-semitism at worst) shown by these Marines who chose to use the SS runes as their unofficial symbol.

To those who keep asserting that the Marine scout snipers have been using this symbol "for years", once again, what are you basing this on?

Maybe it is a misconception, but it's the way the vast majority of the population of this planet we all live on perceive it to be. The true reality has little to do with it.

And because of that perception, the symbols associated with the Nazi regime MUST be treated carefully and NOT applied to units, entities and situations that don't want to be lumped into the same group of evil.

Anyone who can't, or refuses to see the truth of the situation is just asking for trouble.

Well, then the world needs to learn the truth, instead of jump on the bandwagon of misconcept. It could also be said for people that dispell the Holocaust. If it wasn't for self thought and studying we still think the colonization was a cute story with John Smith banging Pocahontas and Pilgrims and Indians eating a Thanksgiving turkey. If people keep drinking the coolade it will lead nowhere but down.

I know they used to use them before I was even in. A relative told me of this practice who was in during the early 90's. And this picture confirms that they still must be doing this years after my leaving the Marine Corps. So yeah, it's been there a while and no jews or other non ayrans have been gased or put into ovens. What has this do gooder whistle blower done............. nothing of value.

I bet alot of jihadists see western troops as racists or culturally insensitive to muslims. And I would bet a lot of western troops are with or without merit this very thing. But that doesn't mean everyone or symbol associated with this should be seen as such. The guilty by association belief doesn't always turn out so true. It just makes it easier for us to look at our on faces in mirror when we make snap decisions that need justification.

Well if nothing else this discussion has shown that some people think the use of the SS rune symbol by US Marines is a matter of concern and others do not. For those of us who think it's a concern, hearing that the SS runes have been used by some Marines for many years doesn't make us think "oh, well, if they've been using it for years it's all ok then, forget my previous objections". For me all it does is make me wonder how the hell it was allowed to continue for so long without someone with some authority putting a stop to it.

I (and I suspect a majority of members here) would clearly disagree with you that nothing of value has come out of this situation being dealt with. I think putting a stop to the use of the SS runes by USMC scout/snipers is of great value. And the use of the term "do-gooder" as a pejorative term has confused me for a long time. I admit that I'm a bit of a lefty and definitely what most Americans would term a 'liberal' so maybe that's why I almost always find that the actions of those termed 'do-gooder' by those of a more right-wing bent tend to be actions that I agree with. The part that confuses me is why you'd use those two words as a derogatory term? What is inherently wrong with trying to do good?

I don't know anything about that Dr Beorn guy other than what's written in the article that copeab posted a link to but even if he is some kind of Holocaust obsessive, I didn't find anything wrong with the statements the article quotes him as making. He specifically said he isn't calling for heads to roll or court martials to be instigated for those in the photo. He said the strongest measures he'd like to see taken against them were non-judicial punishment and some remedial education. Help me out here, what am I missing? Why are any of those statements unreasonable?

Yeah, good luck with that. Personally I'll content myself with not bashing my brains out on the brick wall of impossibility thanks.
That just goes to show it's an ingrained problem that's been going on far, far too long in the shadows. It doesn't make it right.

By itself it's just a couple of squiggles and there's nothing wrong with that. BUT it's got one hell of a load of baggage which isn't going to diminish for another few generations. THAT's where the problem lies. What people associate with the symbols isn't going to change in our lifetimes and, has been said time and time again both here in this forum and in the world generally, allowances must be made accordingly.

The difference between the Waffen SS and the Allgemeine (or General) SS is not clear cut. SS Division 3 Totenkopf was formed from concentration camp guards and its original commander Theodor Eicke was previously Head of the Concentration Camp Inspectorate. Also Waffen SS personel were sometimes posted to camp guard duty while convalesent or as a punishment.

Well I am not gonna disagree on the fact that people like to not consider the possiblity of what has been shoved down their throats their whole lives is not actually the truth. And yeah as long some guy like Mr. Do Gooder is around to preach his version of what is morally right, it won't go away.

Targan do you really believe that all that is gonna happen to these STA members is gonna be some reeducation "camp" or a NJP? I don't think so. Now that this dope has put this out in the media the Marine Corps will try to distance themselves as fast and as far as they can. They will fucking derail these guys. This clown that that ratted them out knows this too. He may try to look like he's such a noble hereo, but he is just a wolf in sheeps clothing none the less. And NJP's really aren't a good thing in record book. It's not like it's just parking ticket. Good intentions hhhhmmmmmm. Good intentions are what the road to hell is paved with.

I will not dispute that Waffen SS members at Camps. They were some, but that no way makes it accurate to make the entire Waffen SS as mad man hell bent immoral practices, like so many people believe.

That's true; and indeed towards the end of the war many surplus Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine personel was drafted en-masse into the Waffen SS.

The trouble is, that while people who have studied the subject know that truth is rarely simple, the Man on the Clapham Omnibus (or American equivalent), doesn't. Unfortunately in the current educational and intellectual climate he's unlikely to want to find out either.

My opinion though, is that the original photo-session is at best, an error of judgement.

Now there's even more people "on the bandwagon". I saw an article this morning that talked about a growing public outcry over a combat post in Afghanistan named "Aryan".

The Military Religious Freedom Front (MRFF) has started smearing the Army now, claiming they have soldiers from the U.S. and from Afghanistan that have complained about a combat post named Aryan. An official complaint was lodged against the military, who looked into the matter and released a statement saying that there was no ISAF combat base by that name. They did say that the Afghanis have a combat outpost named Arian, and went on to explain that the Afghanis also have a news outlet and an airlines named Arian. There are also Arian tribes in the general geographic region.

The MRFF has said that the military's response was "inadequate".

Of course, in the article, they mentioned several times about the "Marines that displayed a flag that appeared to be from the SS". Pretty safe to assume that every little misconception is going to be blown way out of proportion now.

Even when our military doesn't do anything, they still get blamed for being politically incorrect. Only this time, it's the Army and not the Marines.

I've thought this over for a few days and come to the opinion that this was very poor judgment on the part of the Marines involved. While I think that can be forgiven for enlisted/junior NCOs, it can't be tolerated in senior NCOs or officers. I'm not saying they should go to prison but I don't think their careers should last longer. Those in positions of leadership must show better judgment than was exercised here.

tangentially related: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/0...trage-021312w/

*faceplam*

Unless some soldier deliberately changed 'Arian' to 'Aryan' I'd tell the foundation to bugger off.