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ArmySGT. 03-26-2014 07:51 PM

KFS Refit
 
So in 4th Edition the Morrow Project gets an equipment refit to go with the later start date of the War.

To that end, I feel the KFS should get the same treatment.

New tech for the Rich Five, their minions The 2000, then the secret police and armies of this police state.

From "Bullets & Bluegrass" we know the KFS fields the Thunderbolt fighter bomber, V-300 (and variants), M1 Abrams, M2 Bradleys (both minus fancy electronics or munitions), M102 howitzers for large caliber systems. The troops have Mini 14s for rifles, the CETME SAW, S&W M59 pistol. M2HBs and rifle grenades add punch and supporting fire power. The use M35 (2 1/2ton) trucks and M151 jeeps regularly plus extensive use of horse patrols. They can communicate via radio from the platoon level upward.

What is your take on making the KFS a credible threat to MP personnel except to the fact that there is hundreds of them, and loyal to the Rich Five too?

Gelrir 03-27-2014 01:39 PM

All that stuff sounds mighty credible still, unless the Morrow Project has turned a lot more heavily-armed in the 4th Edition.

The V300 always struck me as a "let's use this, since we have stats on the V150 already" solution. For a "let's stash an army in the early 21st Century" scenario, MRAP vehicles and HMMWV variants would probably be more "in-period" than V300s and M151 "mutts".

The production of M1 tanks, but with different armor, weapons, systems, engine and drive train always struck me as another "let's use an existing published description" problem. It's just "shaped" like an M1 tank at that point. In my opinion, an KFS tank would be the engine, transmission, drivetrain, tracks and suspension of whatever industrial tracked vehicle they use/produce, and simple armored hull and turret, mounting a main gun in a caliber that matches one of their artillery rounds. Building a fake 20th Century main battle tank for a century after they're needed seems a bit odd.

Of course, there might be some political, ceremonial need to make a tank that "looks" like an M1.

The KFS army is described in Bullets and Bluegrass as having seven 1300-man regiments, plus the air force, secret police, etc.. There've been long discussions about the "correct" size of the KFS military, how much manufacturing capacity they would have, etc. The Bullets and Bluegrass book suggests that the KFS is the only source for percussion primers in their trading zone.

--
Michael B.

ArmySGT. 03-27-2014 03:15 PM

If the Iowa tank plant and the Anniston Depot are under KFS control, the M1 makes sense as does the M2.

I figure the KFS and most anyone doing any fighting does so in the 18th to mid 19th century style. From the time after crops are planted up until crops need to be harvested. Agriculture being rather labor intensive. I would not doubt that any KFS units supplement their rations (in the corrupt KFS) by growing their own. KFS units might even place a premium on capturing pre-war farming equipment and healthy livestock.

Back to weapons. I think you're right on just using stock 1980's equipment without writing stats for something new. The M35 stats and the M151 stats are in "Liberation at Riverton".

I think that the KFS should be fielding M16s and M4s unless, those are worn out. If they are taking over M1 tanks, M2 IFVs, and M102 howitzers from former army and marine units then why don't they have the small arms too?

So yeah, KFS should have M16A2s. I think it was writers bias. Someone on staff really hates the M16. No reason that the Rich Five can't have the resources and machinery to produce more. If you can make a fusion plant, what is an M16?

I would have expected simpler vehicles even some WW2 and WW1 models, not even American ones at that. Those would be cheaper to make, cheaper to operate, simpler to repair, and easier to operate. The easier to operate would be a factor when you are intentionally limiting education to keep the masses controllable. To the point of fielding things like the Hetzer.

ArmySGT. 03-27-2014 04:32 PM

The Thunderbolt is a pretty good airplane, especially for what the KFS uses it for. I think there is a strong argument for spotter aircraft like the piper cub and a transport like the DC-3 too. In that vein, rotary wing aircraft too. The KFS has a lot of territory and the pilots of the Thunderbolts are politically connected. I don't see why there isn't a helo standing by in case one of the T-birds gets shot down.

Then the argument for more luxurious or capable aircraft for moving family members of the Rich Five or executives of the 2000 around KFS territory.

Project_Sardonicus 03-28-2014 04:59 PM

I think the M1 and Bradley seem unlikely, they're the product of a wealthy modern state with near limitless resources.
Where as in the dark future they're 30 and 70 tonnes of heavy metal taking lots of resources too build, gallons of petrol to move.
Like WW2 Tiger tanks they'd be sitting broken down or out fuel by the side of the road.

I'd think they'd be more likely to go along the route of Allied armour units.

Small fast, long range tanks like Shermans or T34s and a few heavily armed tank destroyers for heavier opponents.

It's probably easier to retool the factories that to carry on.

I think the M16 makes more sense, but how popular is a weapon that chews about hundreds of bullets in a sustained firefight. When industrial production is lessened and there isn't a resupply helicopter in the hanger. Perhaps a semi auto version with a smaller magazine.

Gelrir 03-28-2014 06:13 PM

The KFS is described as "not having had a war in a century"; I don't think they would feel the need for tank destroyers (for example) or even, perhaps, tanks.

An armored car should be more than enough to deal with the cap-and-ball musket neighbors; the Air Force can put the fear of death into Truckers and other visiting "trouble".

--
Michael B.

Gelrir 03-28-2014 06:19 PM

Some of the MRAP vehicles use the 5 or 10 ton "army truck" powertrain, wheels, and automotive systems. I would suspect the KFS might find the same plan to be attractive: pick some heavy truck in production within the KFS, and build an armored body to plonk down on the chassis. Sprinkle with machine guns to taste.

Armor thick enough to stop a .50 cal AP round is probably "tank" level armor in the 22nd Century, in any case (outside of Texas and northern Mexico).

--
Michael B.

kato13 03-28-2014 06:41 PM

I agree with most of what has been said, but I can see the KFS keeping a few Heavy vehicles ready to counter any Morrow Teams still out there.

Morrow Teams (and anyone they train in insurgency) will have many options for dealing with armored trucks, but far fewer to deal with Sherman/M48 level tanks.

Gelrir 03-28-2014 07:11 PM

It's not too clear from Bullets and Bluegrass how long the KFS has been grabbing MP teams and gear ... long enough to have copied fusion reactors, resistweave, and V150s (in the form of V300 armored cars). And of course they probably have known about the Project since before the Atomic War.

In the end, it's a call for the referee/PD to make.

--
Michael B.

RandyT0001 03-28-2014 07:22 PM

There will have to be some sort of adjustment for the 2017 setting because the armor school moved from Fort Knox to Fort Benning in 2010. The M1 tanks and Bradleys that the KFS copied for use against the MP have moved to Georgia.

ArmySGT. 03-28-2014 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelrir (Post 58919)
It's not too clear from Bullets and Bluegrass how long the KFS has been grabbing MP teams and gear ... long enough to have copied fusion reactors, resistweave, and V150s (in the form of V300 armored cars). And of course they probably have known about the Project since before the Atomic War.

In the end, it's a call for the referee/PD to make.

--
Michael B.


The KFS is founded by the Rich Five....... They are five families of industrialists that were part of the Council of Tomorrow.

They didn't steal those things and copy them. They were frozen in their own cryosleep capsules with that stuff and the "2000". Families (minions) loyal to the Rich Five.

ArmySGT. 03-28-2014 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyT0001 (Post 58922)
There will have to be some sort of adjustment for the 2017 setting because the armor school moved from Fort Knox to Fort Benning in 2010. The M1 tanks and Bradleys that the KFS copied for use against the MP have moved to Georgia.

There is plenty at Ft. Campbell and local National Guard units.

ArmySGT. 03-29-2014 06:04 PM

KFS river monitors? Like the converted LCMs in Viet Nam....

RandyT0001 03-29-2014 09:29 PM

The KFS does seem to rely on rivers and mountains for borders. The Tennessee and Ohio Rivers provide a substantial obstacle for any potential invader. The KFS probably monitors and maintains the few bridges and provides the ferries that cross both rivers. I think that the few monitors the KFS has on the rivers are going to be powered by steam. Steam power is sufficient for river travel, is easy to maintain at a lower technology level, and if it falls into 'enemy' hands it is not a technology that would provide said 'enemy' an advantage. Of course, having any significant river transport would require clearing the channel of snags and erecting some wing dams or dikes to coax the flow to a preferred, deeper water channel.

Project_Sardonicus 03-30-2014 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelrir (Post 58912)
Some of the MRAP vehicles use the 5 or 10 ton "army truck" powertrain, wheels, and automotive systems. I would suspect the KFS might find the same plan to be attractive: pick some heavy truck in production within the KFS, and build an armored body to plonk down on the chassis. Sprinkle with machine guns to taste.

Armor thick enough to stop a .50 cal AP round is probably "tank" level armor in the 22nd Century, in any case (outside of Texas and northern Mexico).

--
Michael B.

Wasn't both the M113 and the V100 powered by the same basic engine as a school bus. So it wouldn't be implausible for KFS to bascially reskin the same basic vehicle.

RandyT0001 03-30-2014 02:49 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I've been working on a River Commerce supplement to the MP. Totally un-official of course. I've included a two page sample as a pdf file. I work on it from time to time so I have no set deadline or specified completion date.

ArmySGT. 03-31-2014 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelrir (Post 58910)
The KFS is described as "not having had a war in a century"; I don't think they would feel the need for tank destroyers (for example) or even, perhaps, tanks.

An armored car should be more than enough to deal with the cap-and-ball musket neighbors; the Air Force can put the fear of death into Truckers and other visiting "trouble".

--
Michael B.


Probably not War in the traditional sense of two armies lining up on opposite sides. However, the KFS does have to contend with incursions by Krell, internal rebellions, and probably raids.

So something like the highly mobile indian wars of the late 19th centrury would be appropriate to think about.

Gelrir 03-31-2014 10:34 PM

Bullets and Bluegrass, pg. 8

"... it has been well over a hundred years since [the army] has had to fight anything even remotely resembling a war. Fighting starving bands of border raiders and river pirates or suppressing the odd slave revolt has given it an exaggerated view of its own prowess."

Five regiments guard the borders, and two (the 'praetorians') act as rapid reserve, capital defense, and insurance against military mutinies in the other regiments. The Secret Police do the special operations sneaky-pete stuff, and monitor the praetorians especially (at a guess).

The KFS is pretty well equipped to fend off border raiders, river pirates and revolting slaves. And the module recognizes the fact that the greatest threat of "internal rebellion" comes from the armed forces. They deliberately restrict the size and capabilities of the Army for that reason.

The 1st-3rd Editions of the rules, and the scenarios, didn't (if I recall) present any continent-spanning view of what Krell's followers are up to. Their listed "region" in the 3rd Edition covers Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Missouri -- so there's a short border area in common with the KFS. Maybe they're got things in common: the Morrow Project, at least.

Thus: while it's not mentioned in canon, any KFS - Krell conflict seems very likely. Both sides have spent 150 years building up their fighting forces. The Warriors of Krell aren't described as being supported by a large industrial base; they might covet the KFS's "stuff", and would hence be the most potent "border raiders".

Border raiders with the occasional anti-tank mine, LAW rocket, 20mm autocannon, or TOW missile launcher (all from Morrow sources) could do a lot to blunt the KFS technical advantages.

Plus: the Project's members get a mild philosophical twinge when they realize that the River War (between Krell and the KFS) wouldn't even have happened if the Project had never existed.

--
Michael B

stormlion1 03-31-2014 11:15 PM

Might be interesting for a Morrow Team to get stuck between the Krell and the KFS, or to attempt to start a shooting war between the two in an effort to weaken both sides. Useful if the Team wanted to put a kibosh into the KFS's expansion plans.

Gelrir 04-01-2014 12:29 AM

Start a war ... to rebuild America!

Maybe something a bit more precise would be better for all the Americans involved.

--
Michael B.

ArmySGT. 04-01-2014 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelrir (Post 58961)
Bullets and Bluegrass, pg. 8

"... it has been well over a hundred years since [the army] has had to fight anything even remotely resembling a war. Fighting starving bands of border raiders and river pirates or suppressing the odd slave revolt has given it an exaggerated view of its own prowess."

Five regiments guard the borders, and two (the 'praetorians') act as rapid reserve, capital defense, and insurance against military mutinies in the other regiments. The Secret Police do the special operations sneaky-pete stuff, and monitor the praetorians especially (at a guess).

The KFS is pretty well equipped to fend off border raiders, river pirates and revolting slaves. And the module recognizes the fact that the greatest threat of "internal rebellion" comes from the armed forces. They deliberately restrict the size and capabilities of the Army for that reason.

The 1st-3rd Editions of the rules, and the scenarios, didn't (if I recall) present any continent-spanning view of what Krell's followers are up to. Their listed "region" in the 3rd Edition covers Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Missouri -- so there's a short border area in common with the KFS. Maybe they're got things in common: the Morrow Project, at least.

Thus: while it's not mentioned in canon, any KFS - Krell conflict seems very likely. Both sides have spent 150 years building up their fighting forces. The Warriors of Krell aren't described as being supported by a large industrial base; they might covet the KFS's "stuff", and would hence be the most potent "border raiders".

Border raiders with the occasional anti-tank mine, LAW rocket, 20mm autocannon, or TOW missile launcher (all from Morrow sources) could do a lot to blunt the KFS technical advantages.

Plus: the Project's members get a mild philosophical twinge when they realize that the River War (between Krell and the KFS) wouldn't even have happened if the Project had never existed.

--
Michael B

Krell appears to be like the Mongolian Horde. The move from region to region plundering then return to their home base. Krell are in Washington State, (Operation Final Watch) with a ship and quite a few men. The Krell are on the periphery in Operation Lonestar but, play an insignificant role. Possibly planning a move on the Lonestar Republic if the Brotherhood wins or if the Army at Ft. Hood is weak. Everyone covets the oil and the ability to refine it. Of course, the Krell are also in Idaho (150 years in the past) for Prime Base.

With a shift in the extraction of natural resources in the U.S. since third edition was published; coupled with the loss of major manufacturing in the Great Lakes region, encounter groups locations need a major re-write.

ArmySGT. 04-01-2014 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormlion1 (Post 58962)
Might be interesting for a Morrow Team to get stuck between the Krell and the KFS, or to attempt to start a shooting war between the two in an effort to weaken both sides. Useful if the Team wanted to put a kibosh into the KFS's expansion plans.

There is a chance to start a fight between Krell and Maxwell's Militia in "Operation at Riverton" as well as in "Operation Lucifer".

No Krell in "Operation Damocles" but there is ample reason to draw them in when Damocles begins broadcasting MP wakeup signals really loudly. Then there is ample recruits for the Krell in all the encampments of "Cons" throughout the Upper Peninsula that have every reason to hate the Finns and WANT to join Krell.

stormlion1 04-01-2014 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelrir (Post 58963)
Start a war ... to rebuild America!

Maybe something a bit more precise would be better for all the Americans involved.

--
Michael B.

150 years after a nuclear war the various factions aren't really the American ideal anymore. They probably don't even call themselves American anymore. There something different and will need to be broken so something better can be built up to replace it. Starting a war between the Krell and the KFS would get there attention on each other, wasting rescources and even keeping them contained from expansion into more free areas. Hopefully it will be a long war and attrition will bring the victor down low enough the Project or better yet internal problems can bring down the victor from within.

ArmySGT. 04-02-2014 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormlion1 (Post 58982)
150 years after a nuclear war the various factions aren't really the American ideal anymore. They probably don't even call themselves American anymore. There something different and will need to be broken so something better can be built up to replace it. Starting a war between the Krell and the KFS would get there attention on each other, wasting rescources and even keeping them contained from expansion into more free areas. Hopefully it will be a long war and attrition will bring the victor down low enough the Project or better yet internal problems can bring down the victor from within.

I see your point, however.

Such a war would be bad for the KFS and strengthen the Krell. The Krell don't have a country or a capital to take over. They are akin to the Mongolian Horde. The Krell sweep over an area and eat it clean, then move on.

There is the potential to lose more of civilization and something that could be built up and turned to more barbarism and loss.

Gelrir 04-02-2014 02:43 PM

And, ya know, kill a lot of people. "The Rich Five tyrannize 98% of their society; how many ordinary citizens can we kill before we're worse than the Rich Five?".

--
Michael B.

Gelrir 04-02-2014 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormlion1 (Post 58982)
150 years after a nuclear war the various factions aren't really the American ideal anymore. They probably don't even call themselves American anymore. There something different and will need to be broken so something better can be built up to replace it.

That's another big philosophical point for teams to ponder: if there aren't any people calling themselves Americans, should they inhabitants of North American be swept clear with fire and sword so that you can "Rebuild America"? I dunno that "breaking" everyone in North America to fit your goal is very nice.

Yes, maybe instigating a civil war among the Warriors of Krell or the subjects of the KFS would be a good thing -- they deserve better governments, most Morrow folks would agree. Destroying them en masse isn't the same as a beneficial revolution.

--
Michael B.

ArmySGT. 04-02-2014 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gelrir (Post 58993)
And, ya know, kill a lot of people. "The Rich Five tyrannize 98% of their society; how many ordinary citizens can we kill before we're worse than the Rich Five?".

--
Michael B.

Look. Sarcasm and snarky replies are not going to be appreciated by the community. If you don't like what we have to say, try to frame it in some constructive criticism.

Project_Sardonicus 04-10-2014 04:54 PM

I think as I've said before Krell and Kansas etc don't need to reinvent the wheel in so much as discover it. So they may be able to come up with short cuts technologically that will give quite a shock.

Take for example whatever sort of light tank, apc etc they decide to go for.

If they fit it with anti spalling pads inside, a very basic fire extinguishing system, lockers for ammo and some of those anti rocket bar systems that are all the rage in downtown Basra. Then now their v300 is not impregnable, but certainly able to survive a good few LAW hits.

ArmySGT. 04-11-2014 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus (Post 59112)
I think as I've said before Krell and Kansas etc don't need to reinvent the wheel in so much as discover it. So they may be able to come up with short cuts technologically that will give quite a shock.

Take for example whatever sort of light tank, apc etc they decide to go for.

If they fit it with anti spalling pads inside, a very basic fire extinguishing system, lockers for ammo and some of those anti rocket bar systems that are all the rage in downtown Basra. Then now their v300 is not impregnable, but certainly able to survive a good few LAW hits.

Krell? Probably not so much. Thought and innovation are discouraged. Molotovs and satchel bag bombs and some captured MP gear.

The KFS on the other hand, Yes. Especially the "Praetorians" and the Secret Police force. The regular army? Possibly not.

The KFS V-300s with the 90mm gun would just need the slat armor system and possibly a fire system to get there.

ArmySGT. 05-20-2014 07:26 PM

Since the Rich Five is the tech equal of the Project.

Where and in what way do you suppose they use cryosleep beds, fusion reactors, and megawatt lasers?

Do they freeze squads of the best and loyal warriors for time of war?

Do they withhold fusion power from even the Two Thousand?

Capt Gideon 05-20-2014 09:55 PM

No Abrams, more likely T-55
 
What electronics and transformers that aren't wiped out by EMP will be taken out by tin whiskers and similar traits that plague electronics. While the electronics in an Abrams might survive the nuclear exchange, they don't keep the spare parts and test equipment needed to maintain and repair the tank in hardened storage areas. And unlike the M48, M60, M103 tanks which could be operated without any electronics and even had manual operation for training the turret and elevating the gun, the M1 tank is nothing by an oversized paperweight without its electronics. The turret was said to be too heavy for manual operation and unlike the simple gasoline and diesel engines of earlier tanks, the gas turbine has a very sophisticated electronic fuel control and operating system. The M48, M60 & M103 all had optical sights in addition to the electronic and IR sights, not the Abrams, all the optics are electronic. The M1 is also a fuel hog. The gas turbine takes five times the fuel that the multi-fuel piston engine of the Leopard2A6. So where a Leopard2A6 would need one fuel truck to support it getting to an objective, the M1A2 would need 5 fuel trucks to reach the same objective. Not a big deal back in the 1970s when it was designed to fight a defensive war in Europe.

But if you wanted to equipped your own army to be awakened 30 years after the war in a more tolerant age you would want simple rugged designs that are easy to repair and maintain, plus that can be put into production with much greater ease. So starting in the 1970s when the USSR starts selling off old hardware You start buying T-54 and later T-55 tanks. Over 20,000 T-55 were produced just for the export market by USSR, not including what China and Warsaw Pact countries. JS-2K, JS-3M and T-10M heavy tanks along with ISU-152K/M Assault/Anti-Tank Guns were also heavily sold off in the 70s & 80s after modernizations. The T-54/55 series saw the widest array of variants based on the hull, including ARV, CEV, flame thrower tanks, mine sweepers, etc. To equipped a mixed armored Infantry division with two armored Battalions, one armored infantry battalion and three mechanized infantry battalions, with three artillery Battalions (one self propelled), one anti-aircraft battalion and support battalions. You are talking 90 heavy tanks, 285 medium tanks, 70 assault guns, 20 flame thrower tanks, 416 APC, 167 armored cars, 2164 M35 Trucks, 1076 M151 Jeeps, 26 bridge layers, 8 mine clearing tanks, and various other support vehicles. Besides given the type of opposition they were expecting to face, the Rich-5 would not have needed a large force of super tanks, just a large force of average tanks would do quit well. Now they may have a secret force of a 40 super tanks just in case they might need to crush a rebellion in their own ranks, but that might be a special version of the Merkav-4 MBT with the 120mm L55 smoothbore Gun, internal 60mm mortar in the roof, one 12.7mm MG and two 7.62mm MG with a crew of 4 and up to 6 passengers with combat gear in rear (rear access hatch). Even if there standard heavy tanks are captured, they should have a way to deal with it, a Pretorian guard if you will with Tech Level A gear (2015 + 100 years), while their main military is 1950s/early 60s era gear. Effective but nothing special.

Most everything dependent on electronics after the war that isn't knocked out by EMP, will simply fail do to lack of parts and lack of maintenance. It takes electronics to trouble shoot electronics on all but the simplest level. I have three cars, a 2011, a 1952 and a 1946. I take the 2011 in for all its maintenance and work, I don't even try to do work on it. The 1946 is my long term project and the 1952 is my fun pickup. I try and do as much of the work as I can and have a garage full of tools to work with. I even have rebuilt multimeters from back in the 1960s that work great and I can repair. The new ones are designed to be thrown away because it would cost as much to fix them as it would to buy a new one. Equipment designed and made prior to 1972 (the year electronic ignitions became standard) would have a much easier time being repaired and maintained then those of more modern design (1980 onward).

ArmySGT. 05-21-2014 04:31 PM

The Rich Five had themselves frozen along with a portion of their economic empires. Included are two thousand loyal families to operate all that stuff.

They are Tech Level A and can produce equipment at tech level A.

The Anniston Army Depot is in the Kentucky Free States Territory and the Iowa tank plant isn't too far away to send expeditions for the materials there.

The Project and the Rich Five (former CoT members) were preparing for a war with the Soviet Union. Neither is going to equip themselves with Soviet equipment then just stand back and wait to be attacked be anyone and everyone.

The KFS doesn't really seem to actually use the M1 Abrams and M2 Bradleys they have. The send foot infantry, horse cavalry, or mechanized cavalry (V-300s) supported by 105mm arty towed by trucks.

Their heavy armor seems to be a heavy reserve.

Capt Gideon 05-21-2014 07:01 PM

KFS has three Tech Levels A, B & C
 
KFS is listed as having three tech levels. The way I interpret this is that the Ultra Elite and Elite levels of society and those that serve and protect them have access to Tech Level A, the Average citizenry has access to Tech level B and the Worker, Slave would be Tech Level C or lower. Basically the highest level needed for the work they are doing. Their military would not be fully trusted so the equipment it would have would be kept simple and rugged (AK-47, RPG-7, T-54/55, etc.) while the elite Guard made up of the most loyal troops would have Tech Level A gear (Landwarrior, Merkava 4 tanks, smart weapons). The Elite class of society may have personal servant & body guard robots and everyone in society is by chipped. The size and scope of the capital, the railroad system and aircraft capability are all open. They should at least have early jet technology (F-80, F-84, F-86, etc) but with no adversary would they need much more. Why build real expensive fighter when you have nothing to fight? Jets are easier to maintain and use cheaper fuel then piston engine aircraft so there is a reason to pursue that technology. This is how I have been approaching it, high enough to do the job, but basic enough given the type of opposition they would be facing. Just like with farming, just enough technology to maximize production, but not so much that it becomes hard to maintain or overtly complicated to operate.

ArmySGT. 05-23-2014 03:57 PM

Unless this is background for your own campaign (if so go for it) consider purchasing the Project files "Bullets and Bluegrass" and "Fallback!" directly from Timeline limited. Contained is the current status of the KFS and how it is equipped. CATALOG

It really appears that the KFS at the intial awakening of the Rich Five and their minions the Two Thousand was lightly armed and armored with the Mini-14 rifle, Ameli LMGs, M59 pistol, and the V-300. The artillery and heavy armor came from looting National Guard and active Units or absorbing their survivors. The P-47 Thunderbolt is a later addition once re-engineered from one or two taken from an aviation museum.

Seeing as all of this is 1970s tech and the 4th edition is getting a technological makeover, it stands to reason (IMHO) that the enemies of the Project should get one too.

This and there are gaps in capability and deployed systems by the KFS that can be addressed in this thread.

Seems like the KFS should have at minimum AN/PVS-5 goggles down to the squad leader level for night operations. AN/PVS-7s for the Praetorians. As an example where something is missing.

A real breakdown of the Military and Internal Security structures would be nice to know (Order of Battle) too.

ArmySGT. 05-23-2014 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt Gideon (Post 59714)
What electronics and transformers that aren't wiped out by EMP will be taken out by tin whiskers and similar traits that plague electronics. While the electronics in an Abrams might survive the nuclear exchange, they don't keep the spare parts and test equipment needed to maintain and repair the tank in hardened storage areas. And unlike the M48, M60, M103 tanks which could be operated without any electronics and even had manual operation for training the turret and elevating the gun, the M1 tank is nothing by an oversized paperweight without its electronics. The turret was said to be too heavy for manual operation and unlike the simple gasoline and diesel engines of earlier tanks, the gas turbine has a very sophisticated electronic fuel control and operating system. The M48, M60 & M103 all had optical sights in addition to the electronic and IR sights, not the Abrams, all the optics are electronic. The M1 is also a fuel hog. The gas turbine takes five times the fuel that the multi-fuel piston engine of the Leopard2A6. So where a Leopard2A6 would need one fuel truck to support it getting to an objective, the M1A2 would need 5 fuel trucks to reach the same objective. Not a big deal back in the 1970s when it was designed to fight a defensive war in Europe.

I think you will be rather surprised by how primitive the electronics in an M1 actually are. These are EMP hardened solid state electronics rooted in the 1970s. The DoD fully expected a nuclear battlefield and prepared the equipment for it. These will ride out a near miss and start right up. The newer digital electronic such as the Blue Force tracker and the SINCGARS radio could be affected if the antennas are not dismounted. If these are then their protected as the hull of the M1 and M2 act as a big faraday cage and conduct the EMP pulse to the earth.

welsh 05-23-2014 06:42 PM

I have to admit that I don't have Fallback or Bullets and Bluegrass, but then I am not sure how far one needs to follow Morrow Project Canon either. To me the game books are more tools than bible, useful for the story you tell.

If, as was discussed above, is to be taken as game canon, than it seems the KFS has 3 basic security challenges.

(1) external threats that usually don't amass to more than pirates, bandits and border challenges. Perhaps they engage in slave raiding, but since they haven't fought a real war in 100 years, I suspect that their heavy weapons are in disrepair. If they needed it, they would do the upkeep, but they probably don't and so, law of entropy, it falls apart.

(2) Slave revolts. One would need some kind of control mechanism to keep the slaves down, but at the same time, you don't want the slaves to get their hands on weapons too easily. So you would probably need some kind of auxiliary militia to stomp out any slave revolts as well as a reserve mobile force to attack.

(3) Coups- if their main fear is their own army, then they would coup-proof. Coup proofing occurs in a variety of ways but a praetorian guard is dangerous least the praetorians turn on the masters. I assume the Rich 5 is an oligopoly, which probably means they don't trust each other. Coup plotters often turn on each other in the less developing world (Liberia and Ethiopia are good cases). One could engage in surveillance of the military- but that is difficult and expensive. One could also factionalize the army, so that they balance against each other- but that risks nasty civil war.

An elite and loyal air arm would be a big plus, but it would depend on ground support. Air arms rarely launch coups (some exceptions in Ghana and Kenya). But armies do if they see they have the option.

If you are the Rich-5 and you are paranoid and worried about your army launching a coup, what kind of army would you create?

(1) One probably penetrated with loyalists.
(2) One that is probably fairly satisfied materially.
(3) One that is dependent on the rest of society and the political means.
(4) One that is divided into rival factions.
(5) One that is probably not overly well armed verses the others.

Heavy tanks and APCs that are gas guzzlers would not be so much a problem with regard to fuel if you have fusion reactors- but that is a much abused technology. I think the challenge is upkeep, electronics, wear and tear. I would also suspect that they would also need some kind of military education to train people to be pilots, engineers, technicians- a technologically efficient force, but not a professional force in the Huntington sense (a militarized civil society loyal to the political establishment), but a well-trained and educated one.

my 2 cents.

Capt Gideon 05-24-2014 12:37 AM

Rich 5 Army
 
I developed a Society that the Rich 5 developed into back in the 90s before I ever heard of the KFS. I took the concept of a society fashioned by corporate elitists and an old theory that the high quality people are at a disadvantage because the lower quality people reproduce faster. So drawing first on Sir Francis Galton, who gave use weather maps and eugenics, along with the statistical ideal of Regression toward the Mean, and then throwing in Ayn Rand mostly Atlas Shrugged with John Galt a picture of the society came together. The capital city would be named Atlas and the nation would be named Galtonia. I kept the slave society but used the French model with a number of slave rights, then introduced the concept that if a family had been workers (slaves) in good standing for three generations then the children could apply for military service. Upon completion of 4 years the in service was a freeman and after six his wife and children would be free. The service man could eventually serve long enough to free his parents as well. This encourage loyalty in the military because service meant freedom for the families. I saw the society having a caste system with limited ability to change ones status. I saw then using a developed rail system instead of a developed road network because a electrified rail system meant you can control the flow of people and goods while at the same time making it difficult to use against you when you control the power to the system.

Public education can also serve as a way of indoctrinating the youth of a society. The use of RFID chips by all members of society is another means of control. The very upper level of society may even have personal robots while the worker farmer may be using farm equipment from the 60s & 70s. There may well be universal health care, but the level and sophistication of the care will depend on the status in society.

The Rich 5 know of the Morrow Project and want to know more. Slavers may have bounties for project personnel and the Rich 5 may provide slavers with special high tech gear from time to time just to catch PC off guard.

Project_Sardonicus 05-24-2014 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmySGT. (Post 59126)
Krell? Probably not so much. Thought and innovation are discouraged. Molotovs and satchel bag bombs and some captured MP gear.

The KFS on the other hand, Yes. Especially the "Praetorians" and the Secret Police force. The regular army? Possibly not.

The KFS V-300s with the 90mm gun would just need the slat armor system and possibly a fire system to get there.

I think in terms of KFC in many ways like the SADF in the border wars of 70s-80s no political support intended, they were part of a horrid government.

But they do seemed to have mastered a modern form of Blitzkreig. For them the number one vehicle was the Rattel a big wheeled, armoured vehicle, with very long range, high speed and excellent cross country capability. At the expense of armour or until the Ingwe missile heavy armament.

Rather it was where it needed to be and in large numbers. With good recon it wasn't where enemy heavy tanks such as T55 were until they were in sufficent numbers to win.

The Rattel also had big windows, lots of doors and a few would have quick firing smoke launchers. So if facing an ambush, or a force of tanks it could quickly get the infantry out, screen the enemy with mortar smoke and then either run away from an ambush or charge down a tank at point blank range.

It's how a thin skinned vehicle with an ancient french 90mm took on a full size t55 and won again and again.

But where possible heavy armour was spotted by recon units and ambushed by lighter infantry units. At first with rpgs and mines later with atgms.

It's a model I can see KFS adopting, certainly the v300 is perfectly suited for such warfare. One could picture a skilled group of Spartans in v300s with good recon giving a MARS1 quite a head ache.

I could also vision elite recon Spartan tank hunters riding around in jeeps or on horse back hunting lone morrow units. Before crippling them with shots from anti material rifles, shattering engine blocks and puncturing tyres.

Project_Sardonicus 05-24-2014 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by welsh (Post 59742)
I have to admit that I don't have Fallback or Bullets and Bluegrass, but then I am not sure how far one needs to follow Morrow Project Canon either. To me the game books are more tools than bible, useful for the story you tell.

If, as was discussed above, is to be taken as game canon, than it seems the KFS has 3 basic security challenges.

(1) external threats that usually don't amass to more than pirates, bandits and border challenges. Perhaps they engage in slave raiding, but since they haven't fought a real war in 100 years, I suspect that their heavy weapons are in disrepair. If they needed it, they would do the upkeep, but they probably don't and so, law of entropy, it falls apart.

(2) Slave revolts. One would need some kind of control mechanism to keep the slaves down, but at the same time, you don't want the slaves to get their hands on weapons too easily. So you would probably need some kind of auxiliary militia to stomp out any slave revolts as well as a reserve mobile force to attack.

(3) Coups- if their main fear is their own army, then they would coup-proof. Coup proofing occurs in a variety of ways but a praetorian guard is dangerous least the praetorians turn on the masters. I assume the Rich 5 is an oligopoly, which probably means they don't trust each other. Coup plotters often turn on each other in the less developing world (Liberia and Ethiopia are good cases). One could engage in surveillance of the military- but that is difficult and expensive. One could also factionalize the army, so that they balance against each other- but that risks nasty civil war.

An elite and loyal air arm would be a big plus, but it would depend on ground support. Air arms rarely launch coups (some exceptions in Ghana and Kenya). But armies do if they see they have the option.

If you are the Rich-5 and you are paranoid and worried about your army launching a coup, what kind of army would you create?

(1) One probably penetrated with loyalists.
(2) One that is probably fairly satisfied materially.
(3) One that is dependent on the rest of society and the political means.
(4) One that is divided into rival factions.
(5) One that is probably not overly well armed verses the others.

Heavy tanks and APCs that are gas guzzlers would not be so much a problem with regard to fuel if you have fusion reactors- but that is a much abused technology. I think the challenge is upkeep, electronics, wear and tear. I would also suspect that they would also need some kind of military education to train people to be pilots, engineers, technicians- a technologically efficient force, but not a professional force in the Huntington sense (a militarized civil society loyal to the political establishment), but a well-trained and educated one.

my 2 cents.

Interesting and the kind of problem that has puzzled far older societies from Spartacus's revolt to the Indian mutiny. So here's what I think most of them do, first of all you raise a warrior elite. After 30 years of loyal service or if they die or are crippled you give them a modest pension, a chunk of land to farm absolution from taxes, a fancy piece of paper with a title on it. If the alternative is serfdom and slavery they'll suicide bomb their grannies bridge club. Then ala Stalin move them to police or fight far away from their homeland so they don't get any pangs of conciense. Then finally give them a smart uniform, make them clean it alot and sing songs about how awesome their army is. You can even bring silly laws like only elite soldiers and the nobility can brew beer or eat beef or what ever.

So for surprisingly little investment you have a force of soldiers that won't run, won't turn on you and will kill anyone you tell them too.

A similar model produced everyone from the elite Ghurka units, the SS and the legions of Ancient Rome.

ArmySGT. 05-24-2014 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by welsh (Post 59742)
I have to admit that I don't have Fallback or Bullets and Bluegrass, but then I am not sure how far one needs to follow Morrow Project Canon either. To me the game books are more tools than bible, useful for the story you tell.

No one is going to burn you at the stake if you depart from Morrow Project Canon. That is for the T2k/T2K13 side of the house. :p

Mostly Canon is used as a baseline. Canon adds consistency to the storytelling, and gives everyone common ground to progress in polite debate.

Departures from canon and alternate timelines are interesting and welcome. However, you will notice those threads tend to stall, as one person is telling the story and everyone else is agreeing or disagreeing.

The other reason for the canon discussions is that those of us that have the module would dearly love to expand upon them and fill out the details.

Trust me just as you have a whole adventure plotline planned out, the PCs are about to meet the NPC that introduces the story hook............. Someone tries to pickpocket the fat guy, fails their agility roll, a fight breaks out, and the PCs leave the tavern. Ha.


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