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Recommissioned US Navy ships
I'm sure we already discussed that but here is what I found on the subject. With the war building up, several US ships which had been mouthballed sometimes for years are slowly put back into commission.
My take would be: 4 Essex-class Aircraft Carrier (Bennington, Hornet, Lexington and Oriskany). In fact I found 6 around but I consider that 2 are to be used for spare parts and 1 (Lexington) had just been decommissioned). 2 Des Moines-class Cruisers (Salem and Des Moines). The last being used for spare parts. 12 Forrest Sherman-class Destroyers (Very recently taken out of service) 4 FRAM modified destroyers 6 Terrebonne Parish-class LST (or similar ships) 3 GUPPY program submarines Several Asheville-class Corvettes Several PBR and PCF River Patrol Boats Brooke and Garcia-class frigates are up to you. For my part they had not been decommissioned. Same thing for the 3 Barbel-class submarines. I didn't include auxiliary ships as they are much more numerous To note, some of these types such as the FRAM, GUPPY and T.Parrish are still found in large numbers in foreign navies. I tend to have most FRAM being delivered to the carribeans where they end up fighting the Mexican ones. |
Very good. Do you have hull numbers and names for the destroyers? And how many Ashevilles do you figure are left?
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Hull numbers for the FRAM destroyers:
DD743 Southerland DD724 Laffey DD763 William C. Lawe DD850 Joseph P. Kennedy Jr. Then, I would count something like 10 to 12 Ashevilles but I'm not entirely sure. Some would be recovered from the civilian agencies they were transfered to and need extensive refit. Others could be recovered from countries where they were on lease (2 to be transferred to Greece, 2 from Colombia and 1 from Korea). The last would be found in the reserve fleet. As far as I know it is possible that only one had been destroyed by the mid-1990's |
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Sure moves toward refurbishment may have started, but as has been discussed previously, there's no justification for it prior to June/July 1997 - The bulk of Pact shipping is on the bottom before then and Nato rules the waves. There's more important things to spend precious war resources on than refitting ships which in the eyes of the politicians who hold the purse strings, is completely unnecessary. In all theatres the Pact in on the retreat in the first half of 1997 and victory can be smelt. It's only the Pact use of tactical nukes that allows them to tip the balance. |
Going into the 1995 start date...
There are 5 Essex-class carriers: AVT-61 Lexington was the Navy's training carrier (no armament and only air search and nav radars); CVA-31 Bon Homme Richard (4 5-inch/38 single mounts and air, surface and nav radars); CV-34 Oriskany (1 5-inch/38 single mount and air, surface and nav radars); CVS-12 Hornet (3 5-inch/38 singles) and CVS-20 Bennington (4 5-inch/38 singles), the CVS have full radar suites. With the exception of Lexington, the remaining Essex-class carriers can best be described as being in very poor material condition, it would actually be cheaper to build new ships than attempt to modernize these ships. And don't forget, during this time, they were too small to operate modern jet aircraft, they mostly likely could have carried a AV-8B/SH-60F air group, but where would the spare aircraft come from? There are actually three Des Moines class heavy cruisers: CA-148 Newport News, CA-134 Des Moines and CA-139 Salem, the Newport News suffered a turret explosion in her number 2 turret during the Vietnam War. While the most modern of the three ships, the Newport News, it is doubtful that she would be recommissioned. So she would most likely be used as spare parts for her two sisters. There are actually two classes of Forrest Sherman destroyers. The ones most likely to be recommissioned are the ASW or "Davis" Class, these six ships gave up the w-inch mounts and one of the 5-inch mounts in order to mount a Mark 16 ASROC launcher. The remaining five ships gave up their 3-inch mounts and were refited with Mark 32 ASW torpedo tubes. Of the remaining three ships; DD-933 Barry is a hulk at the Washington Navy Yard and is used in official ceremonies. DD-938 Jonas Ingram was stripped of weapons and electronics and is a test hulk at the Philadelphia Naval Yard; the last, DD-945 Hull was stricken and was being scrapped. The FRAM conversion destroyers were all stricken or transferred to other navies, its doubtful that they would have been recommissioned, again due to poor material condition. Of the Brooke and Garcia-class figs, its more likely that the Brookes would have been recommissioned, due to their SAM launcher. And certainly the Knox-class would have been kept in service. As for the Garcias...they could have been reactivated, but the Knox-class was a better all around platform. Of the 17 Asheville-class patrol gunboats, 1 was discarded in 1984, 3 were stricken in 1977, 2 went to the Massachusetts Maritime Academy in 1976/78, 2 went to the EPA in 1977/78, and 5 were transferred to Columbia, Turkey and South Korea in 1971/2 in 1973 and 2 in 1983. Based on the timeline, they just wouldn't have been available for recommissing. According to the Naval Institute Guide to the USN, these ships were transferred as part of the Military Assistance Program, not leased, the USN couldn't recall them. Entering into the Twilight War, the USN still had 3 PB Mark IV, 17 PB Mk III, 2 PB Mk I in service, as well as 30 PBR Mk2 (Vietnam-era Swift boats) and 22 armored troop carriers (Vietnam-era riverine craft). The 6 "Terrebonne Parish" LSTs are survivors of a class built during the Korean War. They are all in the Suisun Bay National Defense Reserve Fleet along with the 3 "De Soto County" class. These ships haven't seen service since 1972. Like the rest of the Suisun Bay ships, their material condition is "very poor". Going into the 1990s, the only GUPPY-class sub still in service was SS-576 Darter, she was also the last US sub to use the old Mark37 torpedoes (the GUPPYs cannot use the Mk48 ADCAPS without extensive modification). The other two, SS-565 Wahoo is partially stripped and is a hulk and SS-566 Trout is in mothballs, both at the Philadelphia Naval Yard. Hope this helps! |
While some of the vessels are described as in poor material condition and easier to replace than upgrade, once the nukes have started flying, this attitude may have another think coming. If a ship could be made watertight and her engines made to get her underway, I get the feeling that lots of improvements would be made enroute to wherever she's headed with a couple of welding units, a portable machine shop, salvaged structural steel, and scrounged wiring, pipe, conduit, and electronics.
Philadelphia Naval Yard seems to be within the devastation range of the western New Jersey oil refinery strikes, not to mention the aftermath of rioting and dog-eat-dog survival. Personnel, equipment, and materials stand little chance of making it through to carry on the fight. |
Here what I had in a file I call US ships at dock
Submarines SSN 575 Seawolf 30 March 1987 Scrapped 30 Sept 1997, Bremerton SSN 578 Skate 12 Sept 1986 Scrapped 6 March 1995, Bremerton SSN 579 Swordfish 2 June 1989 Scrapped 11 Sept 1995, Bremerton SS 580 Barbel 4 Dec 1989 Sold 4 March 1992 SS 582 Bonefish 28 Sept 1988 Sold 17 August 1989 SSN 583 Sargo 26 Feb 1988 Scrapped 5 April 1995, Bremerton SSN 584 Seadragon 12 June 1983 Scrapped 18 Sept 1995 SSN 585 Skipjack 19 April 1990 Pending scrapping, Bremerton SSN 586 Triton 29 March 1969 Pending scrapping, Bremerton SSN 587 Halibut 30 June 1976 Scrapped 9 Sept 1994, Bremerton SSN 588 Scamp 28 April 1988 Scrapped 30 Sept 1994, Bremerton SSN 590 Sculpin 3 Aug 1990 Pending scrapping, Bremerton SSN 591 Shark 16 Oct 1986 Scrapped 28 June 1996, Bremerton SSN 592 Snook 16 Oct 1986 Pending scrapping, Bremerton SSN 594 Permit 23 July 1991 Scrapped 20 May 1993, Bremerton SSN 595 Plunger 10 Feb 1989 Scrapped 8 March 1996, Bremerton SSN 596 Barb 20 Dec 1989 Scrapped 14 March 1996, Bremerton SSN 597 Tullibee 18 June 1988 Scrapped 1 April 1996, Bremerton SSN 598 G. Washington 24 Jan 1985 Scrapped 30 Sept 1998, Bremerton SSN 599 P. Henry 25 May 1984 Scrapped 31 Aug 1997, Bremerton SSBN 600 T. Roosevelt 28 Feb 1981 Scrapped 24 March 1995, Bremerton SSN 601 R.E. Lee 1 Dec 1983 Scrapped 30 Sept 1991, Bremerton SSBN 602 A. Lincoln 28 Feb 1981 Scrapped 10 May 1994, Bremerton SSN 603 Pollack 1 March 1989 Scrapped 17 Feb 1995, Bremerton SSN 604 Haddo 1 Oct 1990 Scrapped 30 June 1992, Bremerton SSN 605 Jack 2 Oct 1989 Scrapped 30 June 1992, Bremerton SSN 606 Tinosa 15 July 1991 Scrapped 15 Aug 1992, Bremerton SSN 607 Dace 27 Feb 1988 Scrapped 17 Jan 1997, Bremerton SSN 608 E. Allen 31 March 1983 Scrapped 30 July 1999, Bremerton SSN 609 S. Houston 1 March 1991 Scrapped 3 Feb 1992, Bremerton SSN 610 T.A. Edison 1 Dec 1983 Scrapped 1 Dec 1997, Bremerton SSN 611 J. Marshall 14 Feb 1991 Scrapped 29 March 1993, Bremerton SSN 612 Guardfish 15 July 1991 Scrapped 9 July 1992, Bremerton SSN 613 Flasher 18 July 1991 Scrapped 11 May 1994, Bremerton SSN 614 Greenling 1 Oct 1993 Scrapped 30 Sept 1994, Bremerton SSN 615 Gato 7 April 1995 Scrapped 1 Nov 1996, Bremerton SSBN 616 Lafayette 1 March 1991 Scrapped 25 Feb 1992, Bremerton SSBN 617 A. Hamilton 1 Oct 1992 Scrapped 28 Feb 1994, Bremerton SSN 618 T. Jefferson 24 Jan 1985 Scrapped 6 March 1998, Bremerton SSBN 619 A. Jackson 31 Aug 1989 Scrapped 30 Aug 1999, Bremerton SSBN 620 J. Adams 14 Sep 1988 Scrapped 12 Feb 1996, Bremerton SSN 621 Haddock 2 Apr 1992 Pending scrapping, Bremerton SSBN 622 J. Monroe 22 Feb 1990 Scrapped 10 Jan 1995, Bremerton SSBN 623 N. Hale 5/1986* Scrapped 5 April 1994, Bremerton SSBN 624 W. Wilson 11 Jan 1993 Scrapped 27 Oct 1998, Bremerton SSBN 625 H. Clay 12 Mar 1990 Scrapped 30 Sept 1997, Bremerton SSBN 627 J. Madison 11 Aug 1991 Scrapped 24 Oct 1997, Bremerton SSBN 628 Tecumseh 15 Feb 1993 Scrapped 1 April 1994, Bremerton SSBN 629 Daniel Boone 1 Oct 1993 Scrapped 4 Nov 1994, Bremerton SSBN 630 J. C. Calhoun 1 Oct 1993 Scrapped 18 Nov 1994, Bremerton SSBN 631 U. S. Grant 14 Feb 1992 Scrapped 29 March 1993, Bremerton SSBN 632 V. Steuben 7 Jul 1993 Pending scrapping, Bremerton SSBN 633 C. Pulaski 1 Oct 1993# Scrapped 21 Oct 1994, Bremerton SSBN 634 S. Jackson 10 Jun 1994 Scrapped 13 Oct 1995, Bremerton SSBN 636 N. Greene May 1986 Scrapped 20 Oct 2000, Bremerton SSN 637 Sturgeon 15 April 1994 Scrapped 11 Sep 1995, Bremerton |
Surface Combatants
CVS 12 Hornet 26 Jun 1970 Sold 14 April 1993 CVS 20 Bennington 15 Jan 1970 Sold 12 Jan 1994 CVA 31 B.H. Richard 2 Jul 1971 Sold 4 Feb 1992 CV 34 Oriskany 15 May 1976 Sold 26 Jan 1993 CV 41 Midway 11 Apr 1992 Held for donation, Bremerton CV 43 Coral Sea 30 Apr 1991 Sold 30 Mar 1993 CV 60 Saratoga 30 Sep 1994 For disposal, Newport, RI CV 66 America 9 Aug 1996 For disposal, Philadelphia BB 62 New Jersey 8 Feb 1991 Museum 20 July 2000, Camden, NJ BB 63 Missouri 31 Mar 1992 Museum 4 May 1998, Pearl Harbor BB 64 Wisconsin 30 Sep 1991 Reserve/Museum, Norfolk CA 134 Des Moines 14 Jul 1961 Held for donation, Philadelphia CA 148 Newport News 27 Jun 1975 Sold 25 Feb 1993 CG 5 Oklahoma City 15 Dec 1979 Sunk as target, 25 March 1999 CGN 9 Long Beach 2 Jul 1994 Pending scrapping, Bremerton CG 10 Albany 29 Aug 1980 Sold 30 Oct 1990 CG 11 Chicago 1 Mar 1980 Sold 9 Dec 1991 CG 16 Leahy 1 Oct 1993 For disposal, Suisun Bay CG 17 H. E. Yarnell 29 Oct 1993 Sold 14 April 1995 CG 18 Worden 1 Oct 1993 Sunk as a target 17 June 2000 CG 19 Dale 23 Sep 1994 Sunk as a target 6 Apr 2000 CG 20 R. K. Turner 31 Mar 1995 Sunk as a target 9 Aug 1998 CG 21 Gridley 21 Jan 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay CG 22 England 21 Jan 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay CG 23 Halsey 28 Jan 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay CG 24 Reeves 12 Nov 1993 Sunk as a target 31 May 2001 CGN 25 Bainbridge 1 Aug 1995 Pending scrapping, Bremerton CG 26 Belknap 15 Feb 1995 Sunk as a target 24 Sept 1998 CG 27 J. Daniels 22 Jan 1994 Sold 10 Feb 1999 CG 28 Wainwright 10 Nov 1993 Sold 16 Dec 1994 CG 29 Jouett 28 Jan 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay CG 30 Horne 4 Feb 1995 For disposal, Suisun Bay CG 31 Sterett 24 Mar 1994 Held for donation, Suisun Bay CG 32 W. H. Standley 11 Feb 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay CG 33 Fox 15 Apr 1994 For disposal, Suisun Bay CG 34 Biddle 30 Nov 1993 Sold 14 April 1995 CGN 35 Truxtun 10 Oct 1994 Scrapped 16 Apr 1999, Bremerton DDG 2 C. F. Adams 20 Nov 1992 Held for donation, Philadelphia DDG 3 J. King 30 March 1990 Sold 10 Feb 1999 DDG 4 Lawrence 30 March 1990 Sold 15 Apr 1994 DDG 5 C. V. Ricketts 31 Oct 1989 Sold 15 Apr 1994 DDG 6 Barney 17 Dec 1990 Sold 15 April 1994 DDG 7 H. B. Wilson 2 Oct 1989 Sold 20 June 1994 DDG 8 L. McCormick 1 Oct 1991 Sold 20 June 1994 DDG 9 Towers 1 Oct 1990 Sold 20 June 1994 DDG 10 Sampson 24 Jun 1991 Sold 25 Jul 1995 DDG 11 Sellers 31 Oct 1989 Sold 25 Jul 1995 DDG 12 Robison 1 Oct 1991 Sold 20 Jun 1994 x DDG 13 Hoel 1 Oct 1990 Sold 20 Jun 1994 x DDG 14 Buchanan 1 Oct 1991 Sunk as a target 14 June 2000 DDG 17 Conyngham 29 Oct 1990 Sold 15 April 1994 DDG 19 Tattnall 18 Jan 1991 Sold 15 April 1994 DDG 21 Cochrane 1 Oct 1990 Sold 13 Jan 2001 DDG 22 B. Stoddert 20 Dec 1991 Sold 13 Jan 2001 DDG 32 J. P. Jones 15 Dec 1982 Sunk as a target 31 Jan 2001 DDG 34 Somers 19 Nov 1982 Sunk as target 22 July 1998 DDG 37 Farragut 31 Oct 1989 Sold 16 December 1994 DDG 38 Luce 1 April 1991 Sold 16 December 1994 DDG 39 MacDonough 23 Oct 1992 Sold 16 December 1994 DDG 40 Coontz 2 Oct 1989 Sold 15 April 1994 DDG 41 King 28 March 1991 Sold 15 Apr 1994 DDG 42 Mahan 15 June 1993 Sold 31 Aug 1995 DDG 43 Dahlgren 31 July 1992 Sold 15 Apr 1994 DDG 44 W. V. Pratt 30 Sept 1991 Sold 14 Sep 1995 DDG 45 Dewey 31 Aug 1990 Sold 15 Apr 1994 DDG 46 Preble 15 Nov 1991 Sold 15 Apr 1994 DDG 993 Kidd 12 March 1998 Held at FMS Philadelphia DD 937 Davis 20 Dec 1982 Sold 11 Dec 1992 DD 942 Bigelow 5 Nov 1982 Sold 11 Dec 1992 DD 943 Blandy 5 Nov 1982 Sold 11 Dec 1992 DD 944 Mullinix 11 Aug 1983 Sunk as a target 22 Aug 1992 FF 1054 Gray 30 Sep 1991 Sold 26 May 2000 FF 1055 Hepburn 20 Dec 1991 Sunk as a target 4 June 2002 FF 1060 Lang 12 Dec 1991 For disposal, Suisun Bay FF 1071 Badger 20 Dec 1991 Sunk as target 22 July 1998 FF 1072 Blakely 15 Nov 1991 Sold 29 Sept 1999 FF 1074 H. E. Holt 2 July 1992 Sunk as a target 10 July 2002 FF 1077 Ouellet 6 Aug 1993 Thai P. Naphalai 27 Nov 1996 FFT 1078 J. Hewes 30 June 1994 Held at FMS Philadelphia FFT 1079 Bowen 3 June 1994 Held at FMS Philadelphia FF 1080 Paul 14 Aug 1992 Held at FMS Philadelphia FF 1081 Aylwin 15 May 1992 Held at FMS Philadelphia FF 1094 Pharris 15 April 1992 Held at FMS Philadelphia FF 1096 Valdez 15 Dec 1991 Held at FMS Philadelphia |
Amphibious Ships
LPH 2 Iwo Jima 14 July 1993 Sold 18 Dec 1995 LPH 3 Okinawa 17 Dec 1992 Sunk as a target 5 June 2002 LKA 115 Mobile 4 Feb 1994 Out of Service 1 Nov 1996 LPD 1 Raleigh 13 Dec 1991 Sunk as a target 4 Dec 1994 LPD 2 Vancouver 27 March 1992 For disposal, Pearl Harbor LSD 28 Thomaston 5 Sept 1984 Sold 29 Sep 1995 LSD 29 Plymouth Rock 30 Sept 1983 Sold 25 Aug 1995 LSD 30 Fort Snelling 28 Sept 1984 Sold 25 Aug 1995 LSD 31 Point Defiance 30 Sept 1983 Sold 29 Sep 1995 LSD 35 Monticello 1 Oct 1985 Sold 29 Sep 1995 LST 1179 Newport 30 Sept 1992 Mexican Sonora 18 Jan 2001 LST 1180 Manitowo 30 June 1993 Taiwanese Chung Ho 10 July 1996 LST 1195 Barbour C 31 March 1992 Pending disposal, Pearl Harbor |
Coastal & Mine Craft
PHM 1 Pegasus 30 July 1993 PHM 2 Hercules 30 July 1993 PHM 3 Taurus 30 July 1993 PHM 4 Aquila 30 July 1993 PHM 5 Aries 30 July 1993 PHM 6 Gemini 30 July 1993 MSO 433 Engage 30 Dec 1991 MSO 437 Enhance 31 Dec 1991 MSO 438 Esteem 20 Sept 1991 MSO 439 Excel 30 Sept 1992 MSO 440 Exploit 16 Dec 1993 MSO 441 Exultant 30 June 1993 MSO 449 Impervious 12 Dec 1991 MSO 456 Inflict 30 March 1990 MSO 464 Pluck 29 Nov 1990 MSO 490 Leader 12 Dec 1991 MSO 509 Adroit 12 Dec 1991 MSO 511 Affray 31 Dec 1992 |
Auxiliaries
AD 15 Prairie 26 March 1993 Sold 6 April 1993 AD 18 Sierra 29 Oct 1993 Sold 25 Aug 1995 AD 19 Yosemite 27 Jan 1994 For disposal, Norfolk T-AGDS 2 Point Loma 1 Oct 1993 Sold 29 Sept 1995 T-AGFF 1 Glover 27 Aug 1992 Sold 15 Apr 1994 T-AGOS 4 Triumph 20 Jun 1994 T-AKR 10 Mercury 1 Apr 1993 Returned to owner 1 April 1993 AO 51 Ashtabula 30 Sep 1982 Sold 25 Oct 1995 T-AO 57 Marias 15 Aug 1982 Sold 18 Sept 1995 T-AO 106 Navasota 2 Oct 1991 Sold 25 Oct 1995 AR 6 Ajax 31 Dec 1986 Sold 23 May 1997 AS 11 Fulton 17 May 1991 Sold 17 Nov 1995 ASR 13 Kittiwake 30 Sep 1994 For disposal ASR 21 Pigeon 31 Aug 1992 Sold 29 Sept 1995 ATF 105 Moctobi 30 Sep 1985 Transferred to WI 29 Dec 1997 ATF 110 Quapaw 30 Aug 1985 Transferred to WI 29 Dec 1997 T-ATF 149 Atakapa 1 Oct 1981 Sunk as a target 25 Aug 2000 T-ATF 158 Mosopelea 1 Oct 1981 For disposal, Norfolk ATF 159 Paiute 7 Aug 1992 Transferred to WI 29 Dec 1997 ATF 160 Papago 28 Jul 1992 Transferred to WI 29 Dec 1997 AVT 59 Forrestal 10 Sep 1993 Held for donation, Newport, RI |
USCG Ships
WHEC 379 Unimak 29 Apr 1988 Returned to USN WMEC 76 Ute 26 May 1988 Returned to USN 26 May 1988 WMEC 153 Chilula 27 Jun 1991 Returned to USN for disposal WMEC 295 Evergreen 13 Jun 1990 Transferred to USN WPB 95308 C. Strait 21 Jan 1983 Training hulk, Cape May, NJ WPB 95310 C. Wash 1 Jun 1987 Returned USN 1987 WPB 95311 C. Hedge 7 Jan 1987 Returned USN 7 Jan 1987 WPB 95317 C. Jellison 12 Dec 1989 Returned USN WPB 82314 P. Thatcher 13 Mar 1992 Training hulk, Curtis Bay WLM 542 White Bush 16 Sep 1985 Sold 7 September 1995 WLR 259 Dogwood 11 Aug 1989 Memphis, Army Corps yard WLR 80310 Lantana 27 Oct 1991 Memphis, Army Corps yard WYTM 91 Mahoning 1 Oct 1984 New York Maritime College WYTM 99 Sauk 30 Apr 1985 New York Maritime College WYTM 85009 Messenger 1995 Sold 12/1998 WYTL 65613 Bitt 4 Oct 1982 NSF Clifford A. Barnes (date?) SBA 1 Atlantic Sentry 31 Dec 1991 US Army 31 Dec 1991 SBA 2 Caribbean Sentry 31 Dec 1991 US Army 31 Dec 1991 SBA 3 Gulf Sentry 31 Dec 1991 US Army 31 Dec 1991 SBA 4 Pacific Sentry 31 Dec 1991 US Army 31 Dec 1991 SBA 5 Windward Sentry 31 Dec 1991 US Army 31 Dec 1991 |
Other Agencies
NOAA R101 Oceanographer Sold To The Kirkland Yacht Club Marina Of Kirkland Washington R102 Discoverer in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Seattle R103 M. Baldridge in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Mami R663 Murre II in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Seattle S132 Surveyor in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Seattle S220 Fairweather in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Seattle S221 Rainier in Reserve with NOAA Pacific Fleet at Seattle S222 Mt. Mitchell Awaiting Sale, NOAA Pacific Fleet At Seattle S328 Pierce Transferred To the USS Intrepid Sea Air Space Museum in New York S331 Davidson Sold Commercial to an Oil Company in Alaska S591 Heck Awaiting Sale, NOAA Pacific Fleet At Seattle USNS/MARAD T-AGS-31 S.P. Lee Returned to USN on 1 Aug 1992 and Transferred to Mexico AP 198 State of Maine Converted to a Test hulk, docked at Mobile, AL Soviet Navy T-112 T-112 was a minesweeper of the Soviet Navy during World War II and the Cold War. She had originally been built as USS Agent (AM-139), an Admirable-class minesweeper, for the United States Navy during World War II, but never saw active service in the U.S. Navy. Upon completion she was transferred to the Soviet Union under Lend-Lease as T-112; she was never returned to the United States. The ship was renamed several times in Soviet service and was finally abandoned in January 1991. Her hulk was still extant as of 10 June 2007. ecause of the Cold War, the U.S. Navy was unaware of the ship's status and the vessel remained on the American Naval Vessel Register until she was struck on 1 January 1983. 1992 she was discovered in USSR and returned to Suisun Bay Reserve Fleet still sporting her Soviet markings |
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Ok, hypothetically if the US was to somehow decide that recommissioning ships was something they needed to do before the war turned nuclear, and they were able to scrape up the resources needed to do the job from whatever was left just getting the troops mobilised, equiped and shipped over to their respective battlefields, what's to say the opposition can't do the same?
Do we really want to see yet another series of sea battles this time using 40+ year old rustbuckets which end with the same result - a lot of pointless deaths and everything on the bottom? In my mind, it just doesn't make sense to refurbish much of anything especially since you completely unbalance the game world by doing so. It's no longer T2K, but "the US tromps all over everything" UNLESS you radically upscale and extend effective and widescale sea combat by invigorating ALL sides. |
There is also something else to consider when bringing mothballed ships back into service. Many of these ships date to WWII/Korea and are very manpower intensive, something that the modern navy has moved away from.
Another factor to consider is the time and cost of refitting these ships. The best example is, of course, the recommissioning of the four Iowa-class Battleships. The New Jersey (BB62) was commissioned 23 May 1943 and deactivated 30 June 1948. She was reactivated 21 Nov 1950 and deactivated 21 Aug 1957. She was reactivated on 6 April 1968 and deactivated again on 17 Dec 1969. She was reactivated again on 28 Dec 1982. She was refitted for each of her activations, losing her 20mm and most of her 40mm batteries for the Korean War, the remaining 40mm for the Vietnam War and then her final configuration (fitted with Tomahawk/Harpoon/Phalanx) for her "modern" deployment. Her cost for her latest refit was $332.7 million. The Iowa (BB61) was commissioned 22 Feb 1943 and deactivated 23 Mar 1949. She was reactivated 25 Aug 1951 and deactivated again on 24 Feb 1958. Her final activation took place on 28 April 1984. Her refit cost came to $348.7 million. The Missouri (BB63) was commissioned 11 June 1944 and she was deactivated on 26 Feb 1955. She was reactivated 10 May 1986. Her cost came to $473.3 million. The Wisconsin (BB64) was commissioned 16 Apr 1944 and she was deactivated 1 July 1948. She was reactivated again on 3 May 1951 and deactivated 8 Mar 1958. She was reactivated on 1 Aug 1986. Cost for her refit came to $503.1 million. As you can see, the longer the ship is out of commission, the more expensive her rebuild. Going with accelerated production with the Sino-Soviet War and tensions with the Soviet Union, I really don't see a lot of the older (WWII/Korea/Vietnam-era) mothballed warships being brought back into service. It really would be a case of not enough return on the investment, not to mention recruiting and training sailors on equipment that really is old enough to draw Social Security. |
Something else to remember is that right up until the Germans stepped over the Polish border in late 1996, NOBODY was looking at having to fight a European war, and likely were very keen to stay out of any conflict they absolutely did not need to be in.
Construction and refurbishment of warships could have been seen by potential adversaries as a prelude to attack and may have invited a pre-emptive strike of some kind. Given that, and the immense cost involved, it just doesn't seem probable a large scale buildup would even have been considered, let alone put into practise. This isn't to say a couple of new ships couldn't have been started - every nation is constantly updating vessels as a matter of course. However, activity outside this normal maintence of the fleet could be seen as very provocative in some circles. |
I agree with all your objections but one :"It's no longer T2K, but "the US tromps all over everything""
I'm not the one who chose to have CA139 Salem as flagship of the US fleet in the Persian Gulf. Then, as I agree with everything you say and as I consider that won't be an isolated case, I assume that more ship had been put back into service (again with v1.0, with v2.2 they had been scrapped). About naval battle involving 40+ year old ship that might not be so much the case. You simply forget that these ships have certainly not been put back on the sea to carry their original missions. They would probably carry out transport, landing, long range coastal patrol and escort missions for the transport ships (probably led by coast guards officers and manned by civilian sailors). I don't even consider that these ships still had their original weapons. By the way, you still had countries using ships that were 50+ years old in the early 2000's. |
Something else. When you read what you find in the USS Basilone website, you learn that she entered the FRAM program on July 1963 and work had been completed on April 1964. Therefore, in about 9 month and that is no minor modification taking place during peace time (even if it was the cold war). You can't make me believe that US naval industry in the early 1990's and in war time would no longer be that capable.
I tend to have older ships put back into commission while I divide the time to commission all ships ordered from 1994 to 1996 by two. IRL, the last Arleigh Burke destroyer to be commissioned by 1997 was DDG71 Ross. In T2K, iy would have at least been DDG82 Lassen and more porbably DDG84 Bulkeley. When it comes to the Nimitz-class, the last to be commissioned would be CVN75 Harry S Trumman. You can even expect to have a number of San Antonio being pressed into service before the nukes fall. http://www.uss-basilone-dde-dd824.org/history.shtml |
Are you playing Twilight 2000 or Harpoon?
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As I said Leg I agree with your points but the ships in question might not have been refited for the US Navy in the first place but, as an exemple, for China. Then, with the evolution of the war they are taken over by US Navy.
About Mothballed ships you are also right and a certain Kanimbla class perfectly illustrate your point as far as I know at least. |
China? There's something I hadn't thought about, but I'm not convinced. The Soviet-China war looks to be mainly a land affair, although the Soviets may have tried implementing a naval blockade of Chinese ports. I can't see that working too well though as there's a number of overland options for supply routes into China from it's neighbours, many of which could be very happy to help throw mud in the Soviets eyes. The Soviet navy may be big, but it's hard to blockade an entire continent. At best I think they'd concentrate on the Chinese ports meaning that while supplies could still get in, they'd take weeks longer.
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I sat down about 2 years ago with chico and Jason wiser and we spent a weekend on what ships would come back and why. I think Rae and Flamingo were on conferance calls at some time. I had alot of ships on the rolls ...this will be published under chico someday.
I drive by the NFR fleet here in hawaii once a week. I have talked to the Manager of the fleet. They say it will take about 3 months to come on line for most of the ships. Tuged over to ship yard. Manning is easy. About 30K to 40K sailors leave the US Navy a year. They have a 4 year contract as reserve, that gives me 120k to 160K men and women that could be back in uniform in a month. plus the old timers begging to get in. happens every war. |
...and then the war turns nuclear and NOBODY in the right mind will be found anywhere near a potential target...
I'm sure there would be plenty of volunteers in a conventional fight, but once the shit really hits the fan and areas the size of small countries start to glow in the dark, that supply of manpower will dwindle to a trickle. Desertions will be a massive problem and you can bet those who haven't yet been called up will be making it very hard for the military to find them for reactivation. Besides, when you're talking 40+ year old ships, there will be a need for retraining of crew. This could be condensed down to a third (perhaps less) of peacetime, but it's still a bottleneck to overcome with reactivating ships. And don't forget that if the US can reactivate ships and crews, there's little stopping the opposition from doing the exact same thing, perhaps even faster if they have less concern about training quality and small issues such as crew safety and comfort. Even if the ships could be reactivated in 3 months, crewed and put to sea, we have the small issue of canon stating that the last major fleet in being was put on the bottom in mid 1997. That to me says right there that the best of the reactivated ships are absolutely sunk and it's only the ships which were deemed unimportant or too much trouble/expensive that are still sitting in their probably radioactive storage areas post nuke. |
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I definitely agree with your point when things go nuclear and you might be right about things going too fast. Still its fun to have these old rusted bucket around.;) |
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There's simply no need to justify a US navy being stronger than it is in the books, as quite simply, that seriously unstablises the game world to the point of absurbity. Sure, those who are interested can play about with what ships were activated when, and how they reached their final watery graves, but the outcome must remain the same to keep the balance. The same principle applies to ground and air forces. Make any significant changes and it's no longer T2K but something entirely different. |
Once again.Its mine or who ever's game to make it! as you have said before its only a game what does reality have to do with it! If Mo wants more ships in his god bless him. if you want less god bless you. its only a game have fun. They do say Fleet right? That means Fleet. The united states had many numbered fleets...That means to me they operate at the task force level.like they do today. from our talks with the game designers they just did not have the raw numbers for all the ships and did not know what to do with them. They wanted a land centric game so they said the fleets are gone. so they made a simple decision for the game. no harm no foul. now that we know more about the ships (IE Internet) we flesh it out. if you want to use it cool. if not cool too. lets all just have fun. remember its just a game.
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Actually, I don't recall Mo ever saying anything about a fleet. He was I believe talking about individual ships in numbers insufficient to have a great impact on the balance of the world. He also brought up the existence of refurbished/recommissioned Soviet ships as well, as illustrated in Satellite Down, which would maintain the balance.
There's nothing to say some ships can't/weren't recommissioned, but care must be taken to avoid turning the whole thing into a one sided joke. |
Spruance Class DDs
Although most of the Spruance Class DDs were decommissioned and in real life disposed of in a permanent manner (mostly sank for target practice and weapons testing) that was around 94-96. If there had been heightend tensions starting with Able Archer then they would have kept most available for recommissioning, if needed.
The Spruance DDs were the same as the Tico Class cruisers except with no Aegis missile system and different launch systems. They carried 8 tomahawk missile. Having served on one I can tell you they were a rock solid class of ship. |
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