Good questions. I think the "background" tech level would be mid 19th C. Think of the steam engines which travelled around providing the mechanical muscle in the mid 19th to early 20th C. Smaller towns could have a steam driven power house providing electricity to the local few along with a basic water supply, for example.

As to trade I think that is based on law levels more than tech. As I see it "governments like KFS, Krell, Maxwell, etc. would allow freer trade within their borders. Transport using steam trains or steam road vehicles would be able to travel over areas. Slow though. Gypsy truckers? Steel road wheels, steam power plants and travel in convoys like the pioneers settling the west or convoys plying the north atlantic in WWI/II or the caravans of the silk road. Strength, and safety, in numbers with hired guns or better still military muscle as members of the gypsy tribe(s) themselves.

IIRC there are a number of city states based around universities. Also based around viable logical resource extraction and purification locations. Think the road warrior's gasoline clan. No pipelines for transport so tanker trucks, or lake freighters, gypsy sailors.

I think the small isolated communities could only exist with a resource to provide income for protection or in some kind of mutual support organization, a proto state perhaps? They would have to be pretty isolated with not much around them so few people would be willing to spend the resources to get to them. This assumes bands of roving thugs with no resources except extraction of resources from those they raid.

Then do those thugs provide a reason for the communities to band together into prototype mini states providing mutual self defense to form, or do the thugs themselves become the organ of the state and control these isolated communities building themselves into the next Krell, KFS, etc.? To me the first groups would be most likely to form something akin to democratic or feudal government over time. The later feudal or dictatorships.

Makes you think about how the larger groups started and allowed or were forced into some form of government.

Gamerguy, going beyond mid-19th century tech runs into a significant 'brick wall' of advancement. Want to know what it is? Natural rubber. Natural rubber only comes from a large tropical tree which the great powers of the mid 19th century - British, French, German, Japanese, and American set up plantations to meet supply demands for growing and development nations. Any rubber like object that did not include natural rubber generally did not last for long, breaking down by use or deterioration within a year or less of time. No rubber hoses, no tires, etc. for greater advancement.

If you have significant states in North America - Maxwell's Militia, the confederacy of the Rich Five states (I reject the KFS module because the author based it on a unrealistic, fascist society from a book he had read), Texas Republic, and Frozen Chosen you have trade, between them and with overseas nations that have rebuilt or established themselves after 150 years. To me the MP teams do not wake up in uncivilized lands but in an unknown and unfamiliar civilization of the post war world reality.

The Morrow Project isn't a manufacturer before the WAR. That is why they need significant stockpile of goods for the 3-5 year plan.

Bruce persuaded a group of industrialists to pool the money and resources to make the Morrow Project. Massive multinational corporations that had the means to divert or "lose" resources with little notice.

Krell is a Warlord. A version of Genghis Khan. His "Empire" is wherever his people happen to be.

The Kentucky Free States (aka The Rich Five) IS some of the former industrialists from the council of Tomorrow. They had the cryosleep technology and other systems, and the probably War date (19 November 1989) per 3rd edition. The "Two Thousand" is two thousand families with nothing more defining how large those families were. They awoke 10 years after the War and through force assumed control of the territory surrounding their hidden fortress/bunker/enclave. That may possibly be more than one (one for each family) and more dividing the Two Thousand up around different industries. The R5 like the TMP buried and preserved their merchant empire awaiting a day when they can run things (government) the way the benefits themselves.

Yes, the R5 are running the University at Bowling Green, Ky and have for more than 100 years. Loyal KFS citizens attend and very select few career paths.

The KFS is wholesale dismantling and salvaging anything pre-War in their area and taking this to Louisville, KY. That is the heart of their manufacturing empire with thousands of people doing thousands of things.

The KFS is a mean, dangerous, fascist State and probably the only one with the ability to affect things beyond their borders.

The KFS is XYZ corp, GHJ, YJK, ADE, VBN, and more.

Think of say, General Dynamics, hid 1% of its personnel and build capability per year for 20 years. Now and Kraft foods, Dow chemical, Monsanto, Shell Oil, IBM, and others.

KFS is THE big boogey man. Krell is really a minor distraction. A threat to keep the players moving and make for some drama. The KFS is a threat to the Project and will not be persuaded to go back to the "Good Ole Days" of the American Republic.

Ah. Well then.

You are missing a lot of information. 3rd editions 1983 publication; also the modules "Bullets & Bluegrass" and "Fall Back" that host most of the game canon material for the Kentucky Free States.

For most survivors about 1850's-60's. But Rich Five plus survivors, and salvage and fusion produced petroleum equals the resources to copy or make a tank more simple than a monkey M! or an M60A3. The Rich 5 might have been defense contractors who made the snake eater cryo tubes and had other extensive defense industries that could replace Watervliet Arsenal. The M68 is a late 1950's design The R% should have reference books and engineers who can mutter this in their sleep( I knew one from Lake City, cancer took him early this year).

First. Sorry for your friend. That is no way to go.

The only thing that make Watervliet Arsenal special is the permission to make guns of those calibers. The power hammers, electric arc forges, mandrels, and lathes large enough to do that job exist in other heavy industry. Building locomotives, for example.

Why not an H-13? A 1945 design used throughout the Korean War.

H-13

I was thinking either the DC-3 Dakota or the PBY Catalina. The Dakota is able to land and a rough landing strip and the PBY on water or prepared strip. Either is a good work horse for long scouting missions.

True, but artificial rubber was manufactured on an industrial scale in about 1910 (Say...TL D to TLC. This is the Tech Level of the New Confederacy) You can also get rubber from several different plants. This includes dandelions, "prickly lettuce", and guayule (which grows in Texas). Maybe the New Confederacy plantations grow rubber? That may be more plausible than cotton

The KFS would use the technique developed by Lebedev in the 1930's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Lebedev_(chemist))

Ethanol to Rubber! That should be useful in Kentucky

I agree, and this explains the existence of nomadic groups like Gypsy Truckers, Bikers and Wanderers (possibly others). But don't knock the "defend a village from bandits". That sort of storyline is a useful beginning to a campaign

Liberation at Riverton!

Anyone, anyone?

If companies can work D2 tool steel and other durable metals, they can work ordnance steel.

Problem with a Catalina would be its size, it's 63ft 10in (19.46m) in length and has a wingspan of 104ft (31.70m), it would be restricted to large lakes and major rivers for landings, or to long runways, it's an interesting idea, but a better choice might be the Grumman G-21 Goose, designed as a mid sized transport carrying 8 passengers or about 2.5 tons of cargo. Another choice might be the Otter or Beaver fitted with floats.

One of Gamerguy's problem is the sourcing of materials that are not abundant in the US that are currently imported from South Africa or parts of Asia. Primarily chromium used to improve the corrosive properties of steel for weapons. So let me ask something for my personal clarity, as I am not a metallurgist.

Other than requiring more frequent cleaning and replacement, is there a problem using high carbon steel without the addition of chromium for firearms and cannons? My assumption thus far has been it is not a problem and that KFS trade rifles used a steel with lower carbon content to make the wear characteristics such that they wear out quickly. Is that basically it or am I missing something critical?

Machine gun barrels are chrome plated since WWII in order to reduce wear and tear. A very thin layer of chrome, when backed up by hardened steel, will give a very long life.

You have my concerns correct about rare or hard to procure elements. However, as I said I am only familiar with Pre 1st edition so do not know the full background of the KFS. To make canon work the rich 5 would, and I suppose could, stash vast amounts of strategic materials for future use. I still believe scavenging post war would only be viable for the first 5 to 20 years before anything worth it would be gone or unuseable.

I just see the massive layers of technology and manufacturing expertise needed to be beyond a single company or group of companies. And all these people need food, electricity, water supplies, toasters, ovens, washers and driers, etc.. Finally the R5's holdings would have to totally private, no publically traded companies or else shareholders, and the Feds would be all over them for stashing all those hidden assets. Seriously they would need something on the order a trillion dollars or more in family wealth between them. I doubt there are five families anywhere in the world with that much wealth. If Bill Gates with 100 Billion is the top dog (last I heard) his input might get him on the second team to try out the cryo tubes.

Another thought I had was after this has been going for a generation or two greed will rule everything. What is to keep one family from eventually getting rid of the "competition"? Why share this. I think by 150 years plus it would degenerate to the rich one (family that is) or a few separate states headed by the latest members of the families. Food for scenarios at least.

Rubber was discussed in past threads. Very interesting, you should dig them up. I was thinking a surviving agricultural university could make that one long term project. Maybe a local TMP team could do a run into a "bad zone" to recover potentially critical info from an ancient facility. Say after 100 years of successfully running a replacement rubber plantation something is causing issues but the problem was being worked on my a known company's research facility....

I only know some metallurgy and the issues with it. In my mind there is also optics (including coatings), electronics, ceramics, petrochemicals, etc. all have potential issues with the likes of supplies of raw materials or very specific technologies or techniques.

Is perhaps the question how much does the KFS actually need?

Lets say they need tyres for at most a 1000 military vehicles and a 1000 civilian ones?

I'm guessing they're happy for the slaves and peasants to bum around on horse drawn carts with wooden wheels. Then it wouldn't be that improbable for them to either grow enough rubber in hot houses or produce synthetic plastic rubber in sufficient quantities.

They may not be able to make high quality steel, but acceptable firearms have been made from heavier steel for decades. I think the idea of a KFS mini14 weighing a kilo or so more than it's real world competitor and not being capable of full auto to save it's weaker barrel more realistic.

The chromium reduces wear tremendously from 5 rounds to 80k rounds between replacements.

Plenty to be found in rail and structural steel harvested from former town and cities.

The KFS would need a supply of stainless steel scrap

Stainless steel scrap is a good source of chromium. I believe that about half of the chromium used in the USA is derived from recycling. Or - of course - the KFS could just recycle it to make the Mini-14 (I believe it's available in stainless steel?).

In real life, I'm not sure how much stainless steel is in the average residence, but I'll bet that most kitchens have stainless steel sinks, faucets and a lot of cutlery...

Salvaging stainless steel for the Kentucky Free State could be a relatively easy and profitable operation. The stuff survives fires and (allegedly) doesn't rust. The ruins of an apartment block would be equivalent to a "stainless steel mine"

The KFS is a trading nation. Merchants from anywhere along the Mississippi will happily sell stuff obtained from the ruins: scrap metal, old tires and plastic materials in exchange for "moderate-tech" manufactured goods and pharmaceuticals

The KFS is an industrial nation that has no shortage of energy. They can burn coal or renewable fuels or they can use the fusion designs they've stolen from the Morrow Project.

Look at disadvantages for the KFS, how much of a hang up is illiteracy?

I believe in one of the earlier supplements it was mentioned that most of the conscripts haven't had any schooling and are illiterate.

This whilst having a 20th century, industrialised military. Can conscripts without algebra target mortars effectively? Or use radios?

Assuming the elite officer core probably don't want to spend their days doing hard sums whilst getting shot at.

I suspect the KFS would have to invest in an educated sergeant class, with basic literacy. Rather like in the 17th century when artillery was a skilled professionals job.

As such the KFS may have the capacity to produce gun cars and mortars. It just might get hung up getting the skilled crews to use them in the right place at the right time.

I have been told the only chromium mine in the U.S. is in Riddle, Oregon.... though that is seldom run due to cheaper methods to mine in other countries.
*edit* Nevermind...that is a Nickel mine.

What is "Stellite"(?), the material that replaced chrome in M16/AR15 barrels?

Don't be hung up on chromite and chrome-plating. Is the KFS really going to care that the barrels of their guns "only" last for 3000 rounds as opposed to 8000?

On the contrary, the manufacturers may be pleased. They can sell more guns!

It may also be a helpful security feature. Deserters won't have access to the armoury specialists in the Fort

The rebuild contract fills the gap between orders would Also the barrels are probably harder steel and last a little longer. There are 6-8 makers of AR15/M16 receivers in the country compared to Mini-14 makers, I would have had the R5 acquire tooling from the nearest one. That number includes the big guys and their subcontractors.

If most of it's likely foes are going to be armed with low powered muskets (those poor quality steel barrels) and bows and arrows. Wouldn't the KFS invest in some primitive body armour more so than automatic fire power.

In Fallback it mentions how the KFS if need be armour up their vehicles with sandbags. Seems adequate to hold out against slow moving musket balls.

A decent steel pot helmet and a flack jacket made from; a thin layer of steel plates or chainmail links sandwiched between thickly woven cloth or hardened leather. Would most likely keep out those same musket balls and arrows.

It's a feature that would simultaneously make the KFS terrifying to locals, like Roman legionares or Spanish Conquistadors who were both seemingly invulnerable to more primitive arms.

Whilst also giving the project an advantage as that armour would struggle to keep out even 9mm bullets and just slow them down, giving the team a chance to win through their first few encounters.

In "Bullets & Bluegrass" Officers and Senior NCO may purchase a type of body armor....It is sold though and to expensive for the common soldier.

I suspect that the KFS troops would terrify a unit of musketeers. Not only do they have an incredible rate of fire, they have rifle grenades (including a very nasty WP model with a burst radius of 40 meters)

7-man squad
CETME light machinegun with 600 rounds (another 300 are carried by the squad)
4 assault rifles and hand grenades (5 X 40 round magazines)
2 "grenadiers" with assault rifles and 8 rifle grenades each (3 x 40 round magazines)

Under fire, the musketeers might get off 1 shot every minute.

This is perhaps where I think the KFS wouldn't operate like that. Let's assume for several hundred miles in every direction of their borders the KFS has nothing but colonies, controlled villages and so on. The last thing they're going to want to do is send in the heavy artillery every time a few yokels decide to have a little peasants revolt. You're killing people you need working your fields, not to mention tearing up said fields with heavy vehicles and the survivors will run off.

The US army doesn't bring out the A10s and artillery for a football riot, that's what the police or national guard are for.

Of course the KFS will have lots of heavy units, who train hard and have copious amounts of ammo and arty. Who are rolled out to squash any serious resistance or the very occaisonal band of marauders who raid villages.

But most of the time they'd be more like an unfriendly police force, cracking skulls and dragging people off for a very short trial. I think they'd be most likely to have a lot of primitive tear gas, shot guns with bird shot and battons in their armouries.

It simultaneously I would think makes them more menacing and sinister, whilst still not wiping out the party on their first encounter.

Also whatever weapons you give to poorly paid soldiers have a nasty tendency of being lost e.g. sold onto the rebels or just merchants, or used for some half assed mutiny. Over arming your frontline troops can be a far greater menace than underarming them, a single mini14 with 200 rounds could on the blackmarket probably pay for a comfortable retirement far away from the KFS.

The squad I described is straight out of "Bullets and Bluegrass"

Also, according to the module, KFS troops are VERY well-paid. They are volunteers and the military chooses only the best applicants. They have adequate training and good morale. Soldiers' families are not permitted at the border posts; they live at cities in the interior (the Secret Police can keep them as hostages if anyone tries to desert)

The KFS military are confident (even overconfident) but that's because they've never encountered enemies with anything close to their firepower and organization. If they meet a Morrow Project team with an autocannon or an automatic grenade launcher...well, it'll be a shock

Now, if you're talking about a "Peasant's Revolt" then that's going to be crushed by the Secret Police. The Army is a last resort

According to Bullets and Blue Grass the Secret Police were specifically created to deal with the MPs. They have some secret bunker with advanced computers for listening in on their communications. The v300 was built specifically for taking out MP vehicles as were the rifle grenades. The SPs have a lot of experience in dealing with the MPs. They're not going to be overly bothered by a pipsqueak armoured vehicle or automatic grenade launcher.

True the KFS have never faced an enemy on their scale, but they've had a lot of experience knocking over much weaker foes and Morrow Teams.

The analogy I always thinks fits is they're like the European imperial powers in the 1930s. When both were fighting campaigns against large, but technologically primitive foes in Iraq etc. Where a few aircraft, armoured cars and artillery made most engagements a push over. Right up until they ran into the Germans.

Yes, exactly. It's an "Imperial Constabulary" role. The British called it"Aerial Policing" in the 1920's

If I can lift a couple of quotes...

"Attack the most inaccessible village of the most prominent tribe which it is desired to punish. All available aircraft must be collected; the attack with bombs and machine guns must be relentless and unremitting and carried on continuously by day and night, on houses, inhabitants, crops and cattle."

In his memoir of the crushing of the 1920 Iraqi uprising, Lieutenant-General Sir Aylmer L Haldane, quotes his own orders for the punishment of any Iraqi found in possession of weapons "with the utmost severity": "The village where he resides will be destroyed _ pressure will be brought on the inhabitants by cutting off water power the area being cleared of the necessaries of life". He added the warning: "Burning a village properly takes a long time, an hour or more according to size"

Pretty much hit what I meant on the head.

It's both a more satisfying and manageable foe.

Two oddities of "Bullets and Bluegrass"

Oddity Number 1

The 90mm Cockerill on the LAV-300 has explosive rounds

BUT

The 105mm tank guns do not have explosive rounds. Only solid shot. Why?

The KFS has 105mm howitzers. There seems little point in having howitzers that only fire solid shot, so there is (presumably) a capability to manufacture HE rounds in 105mm

Oddity Number Two

So MANY armoured vehicles. The KFS Army fields almost the same number of tanks as the ENTIRE British Army...(144 compared to 156)

The KFS manufactures 2 types of tank: a replica M1 and a replica M60A3. These have less armour ("half a meter at best") than the originals and lack luxuries such as weapon stabilization and laser rangefinders. There are 72 tanks in each of the "Praetorian" 6th and 7th regiments

They also make a "replica" M2 Bradley (no TOW missiles). There are 84 Bradleys in each Praetorian regiment


Oh, and let's not forget the 16 V-300's in each of the other 5 regiments

That's 144 tanks, 168 tracked IFVs and 80 wheeled APCs - 4 separate designs, each with its own logistics problem. Is there a way for the KFS to simplify things?