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-   -   A question about the old TMP supplement "The Armory Volume 1" (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=5525)

StainlessSteelCynic 10-15-2017 02:31 AM

A question about the old TMP supplement "The Armory Volume 1"
 
Hey everyone, while I know that "The Armory Vol1" is not actually a TMP book, I've hunted for it for about two decades because it was one of those "kinda related" supplements. Mentioned in lots of places but rarely seen in the wild!

I finally got my hands on a PDF through an acquaintance at my local game store and knowing how much trouble I've had trying to get a copy, this was one of those bizarre but lucky, random chance kind of things that came about over a conversation of how much I am tired of heroic fantasy RPGs. Considering how little publicity TMP got in Australia, I'm still amazed that I spoke to someone who knew exactly what it was. But enough babbling...

So my question is this; is the book still covered by any sort of copyright issue in regards to sharing it with others?
I would quite happily post a copy of it here but I don't want to cause any hassles for this website or anyone else due to copyright/IP violation.
So yeah, before consider I posting it, does anyone know the current legal state etc. etc. of "The Armory" at all?

kato13 10-15-2017 07:30 AM

From my limited understanding of copyright law, posting it would probably be a violation subject to a DMCA removal request.

Unless the copyright is released we probably have decades before it can be freely published.

I have allowed a few exceptions to be posted, most notably the Finnish to English translations of T2k material, as there is much smaller number year protection on translations if the original owner is not taking any action to provide their own translations. I have also allowed posting of things like Project Phoenix which was basically given away by its creator.

In reality issues would depend on how aggressively someone protects their property. There are entire websites that are based on copyright infringement (piratebay and scribd spring to mind) where there is too much clutter, or an owner simply thinks it is not worth the effort to have things removed, or the site flagrantly ignore DMCA requests.

You can post snippets or a review. Posting an the ISBN number might allow users to find it via bookfinder.com or other sources. But as for posting the entire thing here (or a link to it) would be a legal no-no.

StainlessSteelCynic 10-15-2017 08:45 PM

Thanks for the reply Kato, I thought this might be the case although I had hoped that it wasn't.
At one time when I was originally searching for it, I was given to understand The Armory was a cheaply produced supplement meant as practically a freebie for conventions and so on (anecdotal story and nothing I've seen in the last ten years has supported the claim). It was printed in 1983 by a publisher that no longer seems to be in operation and there is no ISBN from what I can find, all of which leant some initial credibility to the freebie claim.

With a little bit of checking on the net just now, there are copies for sale on Amazon, with an Amazon "ASIN" ID because there is no ISBN. A hell of a coincidence because there were none listed on Amazon, EBay etc. etc. for the last few years from what I recall.
Amazon ASIN: B0006EG1YY
USA https://www.amazon.com/Armory-Vol-Gu.../dp/B0006EG1YY
UK https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Armor...ent/B0006EG1YY

The Amazon page shows the later (I think third) print release with the colour cover, the copy I have appears to be the first printing with no proper cover.
There's a very small entry for the book on Wayne's Books, near the bottom of the page that shows the covers from what I think are the second and third printing.
http://www.waynesbooks.com/Weaponbooks.html#kd

If nothing else, at the very least, I might have made someone aware of this piece of early Kevin Dockery work. It was overshadowed by his much more comprehensive later book Edge of the Sword Volume 1: Compendium of Modern Firearms.
The Armory is almost in the realms of "the forgotten" these days, such a rarity that it's practically a unicorn - often wished for, sometimes seen, but rarely possessed.

Project_Sardonicus 10-16-2017 12:17 PM

Thanks it's available as a download on scribd

It's fascinating as it's been written with all the Morrow Project stats, E factor etc as well as the short descriptions about how the weapons could be used in game.

If it was written without permission it must be a copywrite nightmare.

Sprocketteer 10-16-2017 01:40 PM

I came across a pdf of this sometime ago.

Just noticed a couple of copies of one of the authors later books, Compendium of Modern Firearms on ebay for much cheapness, so I grabbed one.

Also inspired me to dig out my copy of Guns Guns Guns by BTRC , another oldie from the 80's.

kato13 10-16-2017 04:41 PM

Compendium of Modern Firearms is one of my top 5 weapon reference books.

tsofian 10-16-2017 05:44 PM

Two copies of the Armory Vol ! on Bookfinder.com

https://www.bookfinder.com/search/?a...apons%2520from

decent prices

Gelrir 10-16-2017 08:53 PM

I've got a copy; it has a color soft cover.

The Armory
Volume 1
Gunpowder Era Weapons From The
Foureenth Century To The Present.

New!
With Tables For Use With
Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes
And
Espionage

By
Kevin Dockery

No other volumes were ever published. About five are suggested on the inside front cover: Ancient Weapons, Science Fiction Weapons, Expansions of Modern Weapons, Exotic Weaponry, Nuclear Devices.

On the credits page it has:

Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 84-148519
Copyright 1983 by Kevin Dockery,
All rights Reserved
Published by
Firebird Ltd.
P.O. Box 4180,
Ann Arbor, MI 48106

On the last page are three ads: one for Golden Age of Champions (by Firebird, as a licensed Champions/Hero System product apparently); one for "Here There Be Tigers", a scenario for the Hero System, set in Laos just after the Vietnam war; and an ad for Firebird Ltd. itself, for Research and Consultation in the weapons field.

Inside the rear cover are ads for more Hero system and MS&PE supplements, and an NRA application. It's 158 numbered pages, more than twice the page count for MP 3rd Edition ... I don't think it was a "freebie".

My presumption is that Firebird was Kevin Dockery "doing business as".

--
Michael B.

mmartin798 10-17-2017 11:09 AM

Disclamer: I am not a copyright lawyer, but I did deal with copyright on a regular basis in a previous job.

I do think posting the entire document here is not a good idea just because I like this forum and want it to stay up. With that being said, a copyright search shows the original 1983 copyright. This would run out in 28 years unless an extension was applied for no later than 2011, which would extend the copyright out to 75 year from the original copyright date. The search did not show that an extension was applied for, so it is possible the copyright has expired.

nuke11 10-18-2017 05:58 AM

There where 2 editions of it made.

1st edition that looks close to TM1-1, plain beige cover and MP stats for each weapon.

2nd edition with full color covers, no MP stats for the weapons.

If you go to my page on it http://www.thesupplybunker.net/history-2.htm you will get a brief background on the 1st edition.

Sprocketteer 10-20-2017 10:57 PM

Compendium arrived...
https://i.imgur.com/pMm2w5z.jpg


and this... :D
Kickstarter backers copy of Morrow Project 4th Ed., still sealed with the various extras, dice, recon badge, challenge coin and i.d. cards. Sweet!
https://i.imgur.com/9miy6va.jpg


And a very cheap but mint copy of GDW's Merc:2000 for the rpg collection as I didn't have it.

.45cultist 10-21-2017 11:34 AM

Some one was lucky enough 10 years ago to buy a first printing! Now only 2nd printings are available, only online copies of the first exist right now. BTW, has anyone tried using the "Edge of the Sword" system with 3rd ed TMP?

Sprocketteer 10-21-2017 01:43 PM

I worked for Games Workshop for a time here in the UK (in the good old days before they stopped selling other companies rpg products). I remember seeing The Armory on the shelf, and never bought it. :mad:

There is a single copy on usa ebay for $9.99+$26 postage to UK. Almost tempted...

.45cultist 10-21-2017 02:13 PM

I have the 2nd printing dead tree and the online first printing. Small arms have covered a lot of ground since then. Even civilian/police weapons.

StainlessSteelCynic 10-22-2017 10:29 AM

I'm also firmly in the "Must own a copy of the Compendium" crowd, again it was one of those books connected to TMP so I just had to get it. Fortunately I found a copy in one of the very few game stores in my town.

Thanks Gelrir for the additional info regarding The Armory Vol 1, unfortunately it seems to have set a precedent because as we know, the Compendium was also Vol 1 in a never completed set.

And thanks also to mmartin798, I didn't know for sure but I was certain there was a time limit to copyright however I had always thought it was in the region of 40-50 years or something like that. I guess it differs based on just what is being copyrighted?

And on the subject of old material, does anyone have the Tri Tac Games CD-ROM of Rogue 417 at all? I ask because it includes the original Morrow Project short story by Robert Sadler. The disc I have has the following details for anyone chasing it up: -
Tri Tac Games CD PDF
Rogue 417 Armageddon Guide
#1050 CD

Description from front cover:
Campaign Setup and Resource Book for Tri Tac & The Morrow Project
Includes
Invasion US
Guests
&
The Morrow Project, Robert Sadler's Original Short Story


I'd bought it from Tri Tac about a decade ago because I wanted to read the short story but the other material is worth looking at as well.
It seems they still have it available on their site as pdf only version (although the latest version has a very different cover and seems to have left out Guests, which in their own words is "A really silly alien invasion of the Earth rpg supplement" that was inspired by the V tv series of the 1980s.)
http://tritacgames.com/rogue.htm#top

ArmySGT. 10-22-2017 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 76075)
I'm also firmly in the "Must own a copy of the Compendium" crowd, again it was one of those books connected to TMP so I just had to get it. Fortunately I found a copy in one of the very few game stores in my town.

Thanks Gelrir for the additional info regarding The Armory Vol 1, unfortunately it seems to have set a precedent because as we know, the Compendium was also Vol 1 in a never completed set.

And thanks also to mmartin798, I didn't know for sure but I was certain there was a time limit to copyright however I had always thought it was in the region of 40-50 years or something like that. I guess it differs based on just what is being copyrighted?

And on the subject of old material, does anyone have the Tri Tac Games CD-ROM of Rogue 417 at all? I ask because it includes the original Morrow Project short story by Robert Sadler. The disc I have has the following details for anyone chasing it up: -
Tri Tac Games CD PDF
Rogue 417 Armageddon Guide
#1050 CD

Description from front cover:
Campaign Setup and Resource Book for Tri Tac & The Morrow Project
Includes
Invasion US
Guests
&
The Morrow Project, Robert Sadler's Original Short Story


I'd bought it from Tri Tac about a decade ago because I wanted to read the short story but the other material is worth looking at as well.
It seems they still have it available on their site as pdf only version (although the latest version has a very different cover and seems to have left out Guests, which in their own words is "A really silly alien invasion of the Earth rpg supplement" that was inspired by the V tv series of the 1980s.)
http://tritacgames.com/rogue.htm#top

I have the Fringeworthy complete CD and that has all versions of Fringeworthy, Invasion USA, and Rogue 417 on it.

That short story is canon references for what the US government knew and why that failure means that COG failed.

I was on the Tritac podcast off and on two years ago mostly on Fringeworthy, also Cloisters, Wierd Zone, and some others. Richard Tucholka is and was very generous with his time to explain the little tidbits and gems written into his games. Richards wife, Melody, is doing here best to keep his games going and improving the distribution. Fringeworthy D20 is up on Drivethru now.
https://tritacsystems.podbean.com/

.45cultist 10-23-2017 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic (Post 76075)
I'm also firmly in the "Must own a copy of the Compendium" crowd, again it was one of those books connected to TMP so I just had to get it. Fortunately I found a copy in one of the very few game stores in my town.

Thanks Gelrir for the additional info regarding The Armory Vol 1, unfortunately it seems to have set a precedent because as we know, the Compendium was also Vol 1 in a never completed set.

And thanks also to mmartin798, I didn't know for sure but I was certain there was a time limit to copyright however I had always thought it was in the region of 40-50 years or something like that. I guess it differs based on just what is being copyrighted?

And on the subject of old material, does anyone have the Tri Tac Games CD-ROM of Rogue 417 at all? I ask because it includes the original Morrow Project short story by Robert Sadler. The disc I have has the following details for anyone chasing it up: -
Tri Tac Games CD PDF
Rogue 417 Armageddon Guide
#1050 CD

Description from front cover:
Campaign Setup and Resource Book for Tri Tac & The Morrow Project
Includes
Invasion US
Guests
&
The Morrow Project, Robert Sadler's Original Short Story


I'd bought it from Tri Tac about a decade ago because I wanted to read the short story but the other material is worth looking at as well.
It seems they still have it available on their site as pdf only version (although the latest version has a very different cover and seems to have left out Guests, which in their own words is "A really silly alien invasion of the Earth rpg supplement" that was inspired by the V tv series of the 1980s.)
http://tritacgames.com/rogue.htm#top

I have it and like the fact it has the option of playing TMP in the 5 year timeline, and the salvage tables.

gbmaz 11-24-2017 07:29 PM

I still have my copy of the second printing of The Armory Volume 1 from my gaming days in the '80s. I know the first printing had E Factor numbers for everything, but that was omitted from the 2nd printing.

Does anyone have a copy of the first printing? Is there a page with a table of all the E-Factor ratings?

.45cultist 01-07-2018 04:35 PM

A random Amazon check said a first edition, January '83 was available for $22. No pic, but I went ahead and bought it, now we wait.....

Sprocketteer 01-08-2018 11:26 AM

2 on amazon uk 40 & 58

.45cultist 01-17-2018 06:36 AM

It was a third printing, so I now have two of the three dead tree. I have the 1st on USB, still desire a dead tree variant.

Katz 01-22-2018 03:03 PM

Armory vol 1
 
I have a copy of the armory and the book and its contents are the property of #kevinDockery. Kevin is one of the original designers of TMP and did not need to put permissions in the book to use TMP stats, because he owned it with Richard and Robert. To answer your question about posting a file or copy of it That would be a bad idea copyrights being what they are. :)

gbmaz 01-24-2018 09:33 AM

Katz-

I am definitely in agreement that it would be wrong to post a pdf of the book.

I am, however, not sure if there is anything wrong with posting or sharing the tables from the 1st ed with the E factor numbers. That is all I am looking for since it would be a helpful list to help integrate other firearms into TMP games.

As someone who owns print copies of basically everything ever published for TMP, it would be nice to round things out with the E Factor tables.

My $.02

nuke11 01-25-2018 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbmaz (Post 76971)
Katz-

I am definitely in agreement that it would be wrong to post a pdf of the book.

I am, however, not sure if there is anything wrong with posting or sharing the tables from the 1st ed with the E factor numbers. That is all I am looking for since it would be a helpful list to help integrate other firearms into TMP games.

As someone who owns print copies of basically everything ever published for TMP, it would be nice to round things out with the E Factor tables.

My $.02

Other than a chart that shows how to decode the 8 digit codes assigned to each weapon, there are no charts of e-factors. The layout of the book is exactly as the TMP 1st thru 3rd edition is laid out for each weapon.

Each weapon has the e-factor in the stats. You could take a page out the armory and put it directly into TMP rule book and it would not look out of place.


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