Mohoender 08-24-2008, 03:06 AM As Hangfire7 said, talking about politics is fun but it's time to get back to game.
Twilight occasionally talk about the steam subject and I know that some of you already talked about it. But as I did some careful work on that matter I give you an insight of what I got. I'll be glad if any of you has some more ideas about it. Anyway, in my twilight world, steam locomotives and armored trains are sometimes almost a common sight (depending on where you go).
Starting with steam power ship. They are very few to be running nowadays but there are some interstings ideas I think. The Japanese could have refit the "Mikasa", their old 1905 battleship. I don't really know how much work the japanese will need to do that but I find it amusing to have Russian shipping and fishing being disrupted by the command ship that helped sunk their best fleet in 1905. Marseille will detain the last running steam yacht (I only recently discovered that; it is now in the hand of a Belgian women living in Monaco and if you want to buy it they are willing to sell for 100 million $). Both Civgov and Milgov would be very interested at putting an hand on it. Do you find that surprising that both governments be willing to launch an operation for a simple steam yacht? The answer is simple, they might want it in order to help unifying US again, this yacht is the one used at Yalta. You know? the one where that the picture with Roosevelt (the right one this time), Churchill and Stalin was taken. US also might still have some river steam boat (I don't know about the ones on the Mississippi but one is on display at the Champlain museum, VT). Russia is in that case too and I wouldn't be surprised to find some on the Danube river (including river gunboats).
Concerning the steam locomotives, there are some good solutions too. Wales will certainly have some running (there is a very active association in the north of Wales I think). The Swiss would get some from tourist locations. France will do the same but they will be very little as we don't have that many steam locomotive in shape (moreover, France will have reopened coal mines in the North, in Belgium and in the Dead Zone). Sweden would get them from Finland mostly and they might even be building them again (assuming Antenna's point on that country). Russia would have several running in Siberia as I'm convinced Moscow would send railway troops to have them running. Moreover, almost every town on the transsiberian has one such locomotive on display. However, England, Germany, Poland and most other countries would have a railroad network that wouldn't work anymore.
Anyway, I can easily imagine most countries with working railroad taking these things out of museums. A coal burning steam engine almost never dies on you except if it explodes of course. As they are made with simple alloy they won't need that much infrastrutures to repair.
About the armored trains they are some options too. Sweden can get some from Finland (that country keeps various armored cars at different locations). Poland might too if it had railroad for it. Russia made some of the most powerful and efficient ones in history and they keep a number of these. They would represent a fantastic opponent in a Twilight world and that would not be so much difficult to adapt modern weaponry on them. With no air power to seriously threaten them, armored trains might become a very efficient tool again. As an exemple, one such russian train stopped an entire panzerdivision during 24 hours in WWII. It even survived and retreated back to its base. An other point about them is that they run on very few personnels and pack up a tremendous amount of firepower. Finally, they are easily made from scratch, built by adding whatever armor you find (look at yours from the civil war). Of course, the scratch ones are not as efficient as the one designed for the job but still they represent a problem. Until very recently, armies everywhere use to adapt tank turrets on armored trains (the French did in Vietnam). You can also put any type of car (armored car as well as jeeps) on rail with little handwork and, then, you control a large portion of rail with little spending.
I hope that you find my little thinking to be interesting.
PS: I had this idea because Twilight was quick to put several Russian units on horseback again. About that, this is not that easy as you need 2 horses for one man if you want such unit type to remain battleworthy. But still it works and cavalry units were known to run over 60 miles in a day. Russia even used them with success against the panzerdivisions. A horse is never stuck in the ice, a tank or a truck will be. Moreover, NATO soldiers will certainly have to fight the "Tatchanka" as the white russians and the poles did in the 1920's. Tatchankas are machine guns (often several) mounted on four wheel horse carriage and I'm convinced that the Russians would use such tools again.
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Hangfire7 08-24-2008, 03:33 AM I like your thinking!
I actualy have used such units with deadly effect on my PCs.
One group was a mounted column of Polish Regulars, when they encountered my PCs a few shots were exchanged the horse mounted troops responded with AK fire and one RPK giving a couple sets of volleys from the lead elements the rest darting for cover. <another item when dealing with larger groups, they tend to seek cover rather than fire back> And that was when the group suffered its first KIA.
Another group the PCs encountered I think foot mobile troops, but they had horse drawn 120mm mortars and heavy machineguns.
In another campaign the party encountered a group of Cossacks after escaping from a Prison train that was taking them east. The PCs escaped and were on the run. They then attempted to sneak into a camp of cossack type characters but were discovered and what a fight that was. It had everything, machineguns, explosions, hand to hand and a knife fight as well as a wagon of ammo blowing up so the knife fight had the effect of flames and shadows as ambiance.
As for trains. I mentioned something akin to that on a post in either this group or the yahoo group some time ago. An example Perris Ca, they have a train museum with at least have a dozen steam locomotives that are actively running, a roundhouse, support cars for laying track and an assortment of other cars. They also have half a dozen locomotives that run but are not run regularly and another half dozen that are in the process of repair. Further, that is just 1 museum. There are half a dozen other museums in the area having between 1 and 12 steam locomotives within 50 miles of where I sit now. If they were used it would be able to maintain some form of transport and I think adaquate for a Twilight World. I think a weekly run from San Bernardino Ca, which is the largest rail center West of the Mississippi. Using that as the center, having a run to Stockton/San Fransisco and back, A circle route to Los Angeles then San Diego and the towns in between and returning to the center. A run to Las Vegas or the Boulder Damn or somewhere in that vicinity so they maintain contact east. Think about what that would mean? A weekly train, thus allowing for the transit of supplies, mail and communication with the outside world, and even passenger service on a limited scale.
Mo, you mentioned T-34s and trains. I might be mistaken but I may have seen pictures or read about T-34s running on rails. How would that work as a means of keeping a rail line open, a tank rolling on the rails. Or, simply adding a coupler to the back of the tank just like a rail car so that it can be attatched to a train as the lead vehicle, or the tail vehicle giving the train some good firepower. Heck, you wouldn't even need a working tank, simply the hulk of one without the engine or radio system, simply wire a telephone from the train into the train compartment. And this way you do not use your limited rolling stock like a flatbed as a weapons platform.
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Mohoender 08-24-2008, 06:08 AM Hang
For the tank idea several solutions have been used.
First you put a turret on a the wagon roof. Regular russian wagons had two T-34 turrets or else, plus at least one machine gun turret and several machine guns on each side (impresive and you understand easily how such train could hold a full panzer division). Some replaced the T-34 with other types, with AA gun or else.
Second, you rip off the tank of its track and simply put it on a flat wagon. It is easy, cheap and and efficient (it was done by Russians, German and French). The Germans kept the tracks so they could use the tank to support infantry attacks coming from the train. The French and the Russians got rid of the tracks: you cannot move anymore but a tank with no gas tank will not explode too easily on you or you can use the free space for extra storage (as Krakow defense with its pillbox tanks)
The last solution was to addapt a train wheel under the tank. It worked well but that would be difficult to achieve in twilight. It is easier to take off the road wheels of a regular jeep type and replace them with train wheels (Your soldiers did it often in Europe, attaching also some kind of armor on the side and front of the jeep). When your patrol is over you simply get the train wheels out, put back the road wheels and back to base.
The Tatchanka stuff is another interesting tool even as it has nothing to do with steam. The Russian cavalry used to put machinegun on horse carrier (nothing so surprising) but they mounted it at the back of the carriage. I posted a picture of it.
Of course the main purpose was to give some mobile support to the cavalry but they were not using them as only transports. They were supporting foot attack by the cavalry (all modern cavalry fights on foot) as it is obvious. Then, they were also used to cover them in the event of retreat. At last, they could leave quickly and disapear. They did that so the peasants could use this and they had one or two for every 100 horsemen (I Bet that every Twilight Russian Cavalry will have some of them).
Now translate that in game terms. A NATO units with some remaining APCs is attacked by a Russian cavalry units. NATO troops quickly gain supremacy and the Russians start to retreat. If the NATO commander doesn't know about these things he might want to pursue the retreating Russians, especially as he might asssume that the support troops are running away also (what they do, the only problem being: they still can shoot back). As he runs into two of these little Tatchanka (these things can be made easily, they are not using fuel and they are fielded for almost nothing) he might well lose some of its APCs: One will certainly be equipped with a machinegun (if the commander is unlucky that will be ZPU or even ZU-23, erf!). and the other could be equipped with some kind of automatic grenade launchers or with a mortar
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Headquarters 08-24-2008, 08:06 AM I agree totally in the argument that anyone still actually waging war or trying to establish himself as a military power would have to return to the old ways to do it.
All the high tech weapons and gear will break down or be spent by the time most T2K campaigns run ( 2001 -200?)
Certainly true in our campaign that has run for 4 years of ftf sessions-gametime has now reached june/july 2019,and things have not improved ..
The various warlords have started not onlu utilizing older gear and concepts ,but actuallt building new replicas and developing them .Among other things that have been tried :Biplanes that run on alcohol or low octane fuels and are sparse on the consumption,horse cavalry, ,T34 -the simplest but most efficient tank ,V1 rockets ,blackpowder muskets and mortars,crossbows,mangonels,ballistae,swords and other melee weapons making a comebanck as ammo gets rare .The good old handgonne is everywhere as blackpowder can be made or bought fairly easily and lengths of pipe is common . etc ..
here is some docs -they need work but its a start.
http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/Panzer%20Train/
one of our group has a small personal armoured trains that run a circular route with side tracks in California-called the "Iron Express" ..he is always on the move ,intimidating the peasants and villagers with his panzertrain..
Also a few steam vehicles /vessels have been used -such as museum/collections ships , and even newly built steam powered ships such as an ironclad built with various plating on a transport barge hull and a new steam engine .
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Hangfire7 08-24-2008, 01:04 PM The old ways are maybe not as efficient as modern methods, but they are more rugged and reliable.
First; Trains: they have vehicles now that have a set of wheels that pivot down and allow them to drive on the tracks. If I am early to school I can often seen them cruising down the railline, or getting on or off one or two of the main lines that bisect this town. And I am still wondering if one could take off the tracks of a tank and the guage was right you could run a tank up and down the line. Maybe I saw it on a comedy somewhere but it would be interesting.
As for blackpowder, just remember, muzzle loaders weren't the only weapons firing blackpowder.
IF I were a warlord in the Twilight World, I think I would make bolt action rifles since they were developed and used in the age of blackpowder. They are alot more reliable and easier to reload along with a magazine capacity of about 5 rounds for the work of building a locking bolt and reciever. A bit more work, but a system that is far superior and reliable than the muzzle loader.
An example of the old bolt action calibers are the classic 30-30 Winchester cartridge, which was a 30 caliber bullet and 30 grains of black powder. 30-40 Krag-Jorgensen a 30 caliber bullet and 40 grains of blackpowder <and the grandfather of the 30-06 cartridge> the 44-40 revolver round 44 caliber with 40 grains of blackpowder.
So, if I were a warlord seeking to arm my men and I had the material, equipment and talent to make any weapons I would make something like the old Mauser or Mosin-Nagant rifles, pretty simple, rugged and reliable. And a .44-40 revolver as standard issue, although rifles are much more important than a pistol. Further, a weapon like the MC-10 as it is small uses less materials and is blowback in its operation, so find the right load to make such a weapon function and you are in buisness. And then we have the recoil operated machineguns, something like the Browning or Maxim style machineguns although you would have limited firing time before they fouled so tolerances would have to be fairly loose to ensure they continued to operate. Ah but now we are getting ahead of ourselves with automatic weapons, as they take a fair amount of time and more materials than a rifle but they are a definite force multiplier.
Other old defense systems could be some of the weapons used in the 19th century, multi barreled designs where the system fires multiple barrels at once. However, I would think to make it more effective load each barrel <we are talking two or three banks of barrels with each bank having 12 to 24 barrels> each loaded with buckshot. Kind of like an old time claymore mine.
Oh, here is one, the use of moats either filled with water or not, punji sticks are optional as well, and how about a catapult to throw explosives or flaming materials on an attacker if one wants to get really primative.
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Mohoender 08-24-2008, 02:14 PM The old ways are maybe not as efficient as modern methods, but they are more rugged and reliable.
First; Trains: they have vehicles now that have a set of wheels that pivot down and allow them to drive on the tracks. If I am early to school I can often seen them cruising down the railline, or getting on or off one or two of the main lines that bisect this town. And I am still wondering if one could take off the tracks of a tank and the guage was right you could run a tank up and down the line. Maybe I saw it on a comedy somewhere but it would be interesting.
What you described is exactly what was made. Germany (Panzer III) and Japan (Type 95) made tanks with a set of wheels that pivot down and allow them to drive on the tracks. Any other solution takes too much time. So, the comedy had seen it in the real world.
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Poor Merchant 08-27-2008, 01:37 PM Hi Mo,
Here is the link to a previous discussion of railways and recovery in the post Twilight period:
Railways Recovery In TW2000
Malcolm
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