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ReHerakhte
Subject: country boy will survive, (scary isnt it?)
Posted by: blckrider
Date: 08/02/2002 23:56
i grew up in the hills of kentucky, i consider myself a hillbilly and am proud of it( not redneck but hillbilly) the soil there isnt the best, the only farms that even come close to showing a profit are the tobacco farms.
i have heard quit a bit on stastics and how we need the hybrid corns to survive in farming... one thing you dont consider... the hill people, have been running family farms for over a century, the know how to grow small crops... harvest and culitvate the land better then most, specially with poor yeilds. i always felt that
these are the people that are going to survive the longest and be better off then most...
the plains states are easy targets for marrauders and the plague of "human locust" the applachian mountains form a natural barrier for most of them, and they also wouldnt consider that as being the plavce to go to survive. you also have to remember they are alot better armed then most of your average citizens, (i myself was taught to shoot when i was 5,) guns dont have the stigma there that they do elsewhere in the US. (i group of men are going into your feilds and taking the food from YOUR family’s table... guess what happens next also a good number of the ppl there are vetrans, (veitnam and so forth..)
in my graduating class from high school i would guess that at least 40% join one armed force or another.
i have a copy of HW and it shows that the NA have a cell on the cumberland gap area, and one of the CivGov units moving west is heavily engaged fighting them there. the NA would have a easy time either... the locals dont take well to having ppl come on and telling them what to do and what they have to give them...(any one see adventure plots in this?)
back to the seed corn topic... alot of the OLD time farmers disliked using the hybrid seeds, they never really trusted it, more then a few of those old men that i new of saved and used older seeds. also... alot of those old "quaint" barns you see driving thru on the interstate have old fashion mule pule plows inside them... want to guess after the nukes that they got back into use?
scary isnt it thinking the ones that have the best chance to survive at the hillbillies and rednecks isnt it? lol
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Subject: RE: country boy will survive, (scary isnt it?)
Posted by: Alexander
Date: 08/03/2002 10:36
Sure they would. I live in california now and have since I was 13 but I know when I was in Wisconsin, those country people would find it easy to survive. Most Farms have at least 4 or 5 rifles and shotguns and lots of machines as well as full garages to overhaul large engines and equipment. Not to mention their own well, cellar, and sewer systems. I dont think even a twilight 2000 charecter would feel safe in any deep woods with experienced deerhunters looking for them. Most boys start seriously hunting at 10.
As far as corn, my sister is a soil scientist, but, ya, hybrid corn is all they use and have used on commercial farms (one family all the way up to a million acres) for 20 years. My family farms 2500 acres of corn down in southern illinois (dude mentioned how its the best soil in the world in alower thread) and I am sure all their corn in hybrid.
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Subject: RE: RE: country boy will survive, (scary isnt it?)
Posted by: Brian S.
Date: 08/03/2002 11:05
Another thing they tend to overlook is that farmers/ranchers (in my area at least) have lived on those farms for generations. Though they may live miles away from each other the farmers/ranchers they all know their neighbors and tend to watch out for each other. My grandpa’s ranch in South Dakota had an old mule plow (It’s now a lawn ornament at my Dad’s house). My Dad (age 60)has told me stories about how they used to use that plow, so it’s not like there aren’t people around who’d know how to use it.
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Subject: country boy will survive (thought’s on the subject)
Posted by: TR
Date: 08/03/2002 11:24
Country folk do generally watch out for each other, something that no one has mentioned is that generally their into canning a lot more than most other people. You can go into most country farm houses and see Ball Mason jars and all the accessories, not to mention perserves and so forth.
Of course they have firearms, they have to do a fair ammount of pest control, keeping the rats out of everything and of course hunting rabbits and other small game. Of course I can think of plenty of farmer’s who had deer rifle’s to go after bigger game once hunting season began (or in between seasons sometimes). And of course they generally have features that go back decades. I can think of lots of farm houses I’ve been in and seen (I grew up in Indiana) with water pumps, kerosene heaters, gasoline storage drums for their tractors and so forth. So you could have a farmer with a small reserve of gasoline who is selling small quantities of it to obtain anything else they need.
The downside for them of course is that despite having neighbors close by who they have known all their lives human nature is still a pain.
You would have some neighbors become complete isolationists and not help anyone (they can’t afford to use what they got on someone else ya know). You would have others who would hoard whatever it is they have, if they help you it will be with strings attached.
And of course anyone from outside the area with military grade small arms will be able to control the small farms. A 30-30 Winchester is one thing, but a 40mm grenade launcher is firepower! Some things not even they can deal with, that’s why the need would exsist militia’s and or sherrif’s groups who could be called on to provide support to the local’s.
So yes, country folk are going to be better prepared but their not invulnerable... that’s what made Twilight such a fun game... nobody could exsist totally on their own (unless you had a cache of supplies, a secret underground fall out shelter or your own cult).
Until Later
TR
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Subject: Farm Justice
Posted by: Buford
Date: 08/03/2002 13:26
Let me tell you a story. I grew up in Ohio, and this farmer told me him and his brother were doing some fencing on Autumn during hunting season. They were about 25, and their uncle was with them. Well, they heard one of their sheep making a lot of noise some few hundred yards out. So they went to investigate, and bieng deer season, they had a 30-30 with them because they were liscenced, and if they saw a buck, they would drop it. Turns out, in a culvert, they came across 2 trespassing hunters from the city. They were fucking this sheep, one holding it down, one banging away!!! Well, the uncle, bieng an animal lover shot one of em in the back of the leg. The other one went for his rifle, withdrawing in haste, and the Uncle shot him too!! He finished the other in the head (this was in the 60’s) and they buried them in the hollow. I guess they never told anyone and although the two men were listed as missing, the crime was never uncovered.
I guess that’s farm justice. I looked thru the archives at the local paper and found out, sure enough, two hunters from Cincinnati were missing in that time frame.
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Subject: RE: country boy will survive (thought’s on the subject)
Posted by: Brian S.
Date: 08/03/2002 16:51
"You would have some neighbors become complete isolationists and not help anyone."
That reminds me TR, when I was living in South Central Nebraska a few years back, there was this farmer who lived across the border in Kansas his farm had no electricity or running water, and you had to be careful how you approached the farm, because he was out watching for revenuers coming for his moonshine.
"And of course anyone from outside the area with military grade small arms will be able to control the small farms. A 30-30 Winchester is one thing, but a 40mm grenade launcher is firepower! Some things not even they can deal with, that’s why the need would exsist militia’s and or sherrif’s groups who could be called on to provide support to the local’s."
Some farmers do have military grade weapons, I knew a rancher (who has since died) that had an SKS that he’d hunt coyotes with. I’m not trying to say that all or most would have military grade weapons because I have no idea how many that would be as a percentage but it would not be out of the realm of possiblilies. I was also thinking of militias to protect the farms too.
Also any body with vastly overwhelming numbers will be able to overwhelm small farms as well.
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Subject: RE: RE: country boy will survive (thought’s on the subject)
Posted by: King Chaos
Date: 08/03/2002 19:05
I grew up in Southwest Iowa and I would say that most farms have at least four weapons per family member and that isn’t including hand guns. I don’t know if the area that I grew up in is the norm, but about a thrid of the weapons were of military grade. There even was one crazy farmer who had a M60. One thing to think about is most of thoes wind mills you see in the fields, you know they are made of wood and loks like they are bad antiques, they work and they are doing two things at once. Pumping water and runing a generator. First they are pumping water from the wells that all farms have. They may have rual water but for the most part farmers have a back up plan. Most of these windmills are also hooked up to a generator and a storage battrey. The wind always blows at least a little. The farm I worked for we had six of these windmills. We had enought juice to power most all the equipment and sell some back to the utility co. We would run a negitive when we had to dry the crop.
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Subject: RE: country boy will survive (thought’s on the subject)
Posted by: TR
Date: 08/03/2002 22:59
Definately some points most people have forgotten when it come to windmills. I used to see them on farms, though some were rusted and not in use. I could see whole restoration projects being created to restore them once again in a community.
Well water, that’s the way of life for farms in that their not tapping into some city water supply, while this can mean your having a source of water... it can be bad if the water gets contaminated or the well runs dry. Digging a new well is not an easy process by any stretch of the imagination.
When I said mentioned firearms you will generally run into semi-automatic sporters and such. AR-15’s, FN-FAL’s, H&K G-3’s, M-1 Carbine’s, SKS rifles, and so forth are common sellers. But try that up against a group armed with selective fire M-16’s, M-60 machineguns and 40mm grenade launchers and their seriously outclassed.
Against common punks they can hold their own as long as the numbers aren’t too numerous. You can bet EVERYONE in the households in Twilight would know how to fire a gun in the rural settings. So those old jokes about the farmer’s daughter become a lot less funny when she has a 30-06 Springfield pointed in your general direction.
:-)
I always envisioned MILGOV and CIVGOV as sending agriculutral advisors into the field... not only to assist the locals but also so they can learn as well... and the lessons they learn I could see being passed along the chain of command. Everyone know’s the local population would be called upon as local scouts of the area when the governments send in their troops and advisors. So there’s more than one way a simple country boy might make ties with powerfull allies...
Until Later
T.R.
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Subject: country boys & firepower
Posted by: Fred the obvious pseudonym
Date: 08/04/2002 20:36
You could have some really interesting political/personal dynamics in rural America. Let’s take a scenario:
1.) Big time boss moves in with mercenaries to control the farms. He’d have to have someone on his staff who knows "rustic" agriculture or he’ll be lied to blind by the locals. "Hell, sir, all we can get is three bushels the acre." Farmers can go the "seven samurai" route or appeal to any other "big time boss" who’s nearby for aid.
2.) Yes, the M-60s and bloop guns are major firepower -- but don’t underestimate having locals who know the terrain. IIRC you get a lot more veterans in the rural areas per capita than in the cities -- so old Uncle Fred might well know how to use that GPMG or bloop gun the young’uns have "liberated" from the ambushed patrol. Playing counter-guerrilla ain’t going to be much fun -- especially if you have to keep at least some, probably most, of the locals happy and producing or your whole effort goes for nothing.
Rural Illinois is about 30,000 square miles. South Vietnam was about 60-70,000 square miles. How many guys did we have in SVN fighting guerrillas during that unpleasantness?
Good luck.
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Subject: Southern Comfort
Posted by: Alexander
Date: 08/04/2002 22:24
Ever see the moview "Southern Comfort?" That moview portrayed a group of weekend warriors lost in the Bayou and getting massacred by one or two bayou dwellers. They finally Evac’ed out in the end when a few of their boys got shotgunned in the little town. I think that movied gives you a little taste of what would be in store for marauders.
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Subject: RE: Southern Comfort
Posted by: Snake Eyes
Date: 08/05/2002 00:26
That movie is one of my all time favorites for Twilight: 2000 inspiration. If not for illustrating the havoc that a couple of slack-jawed yokels with deer rifles & shotguns can wreak on a trespassing modern military unit, then for the scene where the guardsmen are set upon by a pack of wild dogs. And the Ry Cooder soundtrack pretty much kicks ass, too. A true American classic.
~ Snake Eyes
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Subject: RE: Farmers and their gear... longish
Posted by: ReHerakhte
Date: 08/05/2002 08:52
As some extra food for thought, I always found it amazing what some farmers were capable of doing and collecting. For example, the former QuarterMaster at my old Army Reserve unit, was the manager of a local sheep station (in the US you’d call it a ranch), while clearing some overgrown access tracks that hadn’t been used in years, he found an abandoned Main Roads Department bulldozer, thing was about 20yrs old but after some hard work and a bit of scrounging, he got it running again.
He also applied for a pistol licence for use on the property (in Western Australia, private pistol ownership is strictly for use in pistol clubs), his arguement being that as he spent a lot of time rounding up sheep on a motorbike, a rifle was too unweildy and therefore dangerous. He was allowed to have the pistol, so he chose a ’cap & ball’ blackpowder repro just cos he liked blackpowder weapons. He told me that if worse came to worst, he knew where to get the stuff he needed to make blackpowder and caps, without having to buy it from a ’proper’ gunstore.
And like a lot of Australian farms, there was a good collection of old cars and farm machinery that was still in some sort of useful order. There’s an old ’war story’ about a farmer who lived up north who had pillaged a stack of aircraft parts from RAAF planes that were junked out bush after WW2. Apparently, he sold the bits and pieces over the years to warbirds collectors for a bit of extra money when he needed it.
Also, at one stage after WW2, a lot of farmers where able to buy surplus military vehicles very cheap. Not just trucks and jeeps and so on, but also de-militarized tanks, these were usually converted by having all weapons and turrets completely removed and things like bulldozer blades crudely welded to the front and towing hitches replaced on the back (for use with farm equipment). Here in Australia there were Universal Carriers, Shermans, Grant and Stuart tanks converted like this, amongst others. No big deal really except that many farmers had some of this gear ’tucked away’ after buying newer equipment just in case they should ever need it. Some of these items ended up being located by military vehicle enthusiast for restoration even up till the late 1990s.
There have also been cases in the past were some older farmers have been charged with illegal possession of weapons, generally stuff from WW2 like SMGs or grenades. A noteable case here in Western Australia about 20 years ago involved one old-timer who had kept a fully working .303 Bren Gun from his time in the army during WW2, he had a licence to own a .303 SMLE rifle so ammo was not a problem. It’s now on display at the Firearms Section of the Western Australian Police Academy.
So I suppose it really wouldn’t be too unusual to have a farmer pull out some strange gear every now and then.
Cheers,
Kevin.
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Subject: RE: Farmers & odd gear.
Posted by: Pyro
Date: 08/05/2002 11:24
This thread and other recent threads have been quite interesting.
I live in a farming/ranching/mining area where I’m pretty sure that the farm animals outnumber the humans something on the order 10:1. This includes horses, cows, chickens, pigs, sheep,llamas and other exotics.
As far as military grade weapons are concerned there may not be a lot of fully automatic weapons around or grenade launchers, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t explosives available.
I’m on our volunteer fire department, often we are called upon to go out to some farm and dispose of 20 sticks (or case or two or ten etc.) of dynamite (anfo, etc.) that grandpa forgot about and his grandkids just found. God alone knows how many of the farmers in the area have their own personal stashes of explosives.
Then there is the ever popular activity of going out "plinking" at 500m.
A lot of the farmers I know have an incredible knowledge base, they are always having to fix things, and often they end up making the parts themselvers. I know one guy who drills water wells for a living. He has one of the most incredible shops I’ve seen. He can make almost any part he needs if he has the metal stock on hand.
Pyro out.
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Subject: Modern farming
Posted by: Levi
Date: 08/13/2002 05:40
With farming and ranching there would be problems to consider because of a lack of modern technology. For instance, corn is the most widely planted cereal crop. Humans eat it and it is the cheapest thing to feed livestock. However, cattle are not conditioned to eat corn and it causes digestive problems. This results in the owner having to pump his cattle full of antibiotics. A bit of a problem for anyone in the T2K world.
Another problem is again with corn. It takes a lot of nitrogen out of the soil. Farmers use large amounts of nitrogen sulphate fertilizer to replenish the soil. This fertilizer is made from natural gas. And corn also has to be protected from insects. You need pesticides which happen to be made of oil.
Some problems could be overcome, crop rotation, etc., but others would cause quite a problem. Just some food for though.
-Levi
(That's the lot of it, I hope you guys get some use out of it, I have used a lot of the material for my own post-apoc gameworld, particularly the info on food production.
If anyone wants the compilation as a whole rather than trying to copy & paste it from here, drop me a line at
clone65@bigpond.com with any sort of header about Twilight and I'll post it back. I'm running Nortons AntiVirus 2004 so there should be no nasties with it - Cheers, Kevin)
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Abbott Shaull
OT but a good and valid question?
Some wonderful information to ponder for future games. Here is a question that I really never ponder too much until I started to read this. Wonder if any one else had given it much thought...
Here is the one major problems with Operation Omega that I see now, as clear as rain, in its form given to us in T2K that seems to be overlooked by GDW and the game designers. Did the MilGov let those who are in charge of the areas of the landings that they would have extra mouths to feed during the Winter? IIRC it was something like Nov 2000 when the evacuation took place. Even a few thousand extra mouths would throw even a well stock area into trouble into trouble in the T2K.
If they had built up the food stock where did it come from for the duration of the winter 2000-2001? I know there could be caches of MREs and other rations that they tapped into, but if I were the locals and seen 40,000 coming in for the winter and everyone seemed to be fed throughout the winter with little in starvation. Well that would get me to ponder on if those who were in charge were really looking after my best interest.
Also several of the US units had seen at best limit action due to the fact that both sides had been largely unwilling to pull up stakes and go on the attack for major offensive due to the fact they had crops planted and what not. It went to the extent where several of the Pact units had refused orders to attack or counter-attack as the case may be. Many of the US units withdrawn during Operation Omega would have these to live off for the winter, but no room in Task Force 34 to take this food...
Just some thoughts...
Abbott
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TR
The impression I always came away from the reading of the material was that although the troops came home they might not have stayed the winter in the port areas. A LOT of the troops would want to know what happened to family and friend, a percentage of them could strike out on their own easily.
The problem of course for Civogv & Milgov is that they might like the troops swaying to their side... but their going to want to be assigned to their home states. Obviously this is not always possibile as not all states have a presence from either group. Feeding the troops in the port areas would be hectic to say the least. They would have had to do some planning for their arrivial, either crop production being increased or stockpiles of rations (civilian or military grade). Not to mention housing for them, medical supplies and personnel and so forth.
All of these would have to be addressed by the panners of the operation. Otherwise bringing him all the troops would be leading to riots and the like as food, housing and medical shortages began.
Something else to think about...
TR
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graebarde
Thanks for the memories Kev... I recall alot of that thread once I got into reading it again.
As for 'preparing for the home coming of 40K mouths'.. that is a VERY good question. IF there was a 'stockpile' of food, then WHY was there starvation in the area. THAT is criminal, or is it population control?
I think it would be a good reason to disperse the incoming troops as fast as possible, and to their home areas, since the locals might be more inclined to feed a native returned from teh wars to help restore the country than a mass of strangers.
THAT would lead to some very nasty confrontations and a civil war within a civilwar. A way for the CivGov to gain support from the locals and instill unrest, as if there would not be enough already.
grae..
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Abbott Shaull
Now, yes, it would be wise to disperse the group once they land, but this would be the start of winter by the time they did. By this time the being how most things have gone in the T2K. I really don't think moving troops through the seaboard area would be likely. I would think either way they go about they are going to have riots unless they disperse in two to four seperate location.
As for hording food and what not. I didn't say it wouldn't cause a riot, it seems to be one of several ways they would come up with to work around the 40,000 plus mouths. Remember there are vast part of the country that don't have alligence to either side since they are waiting to see who wins the little civil war.
Say use New Jersey around Fort Dix, then around GA, and a location or two along the Gulf Coast. This would mean only 10,000 soldier along with the sailors from each ship that brought them back. Or you can have like 8 or 9 location where each group will be responsible for forming a cadre for a new Division. These units could feasibily stay where they disembark for while as long as everything went as planned and then in the spring then jump off.
Some units would say go to the Southwest Front and help out there. While units along the East Coast would systematically would leap from one location to the next helping to rebuild the nation. As the did this they would recruit and help train the local militias. They would stay in an area for as little as 6 months and for as long as needed before they would move on(ideally they would stay in location for 9 to 12 months trying to move each spring when practical). While they are in an particular they would build replacement units that would be sent to Southwest or Northwest as need as well as Brigade size militia units that would stay behind to provide security when they left. They would also get a head count as close as possible to help in getting new elections set up. So this would be done in piecemael, but hey at this stage there would be no one perfect plan to do it at once.
Just some of my thoughts and opinions.
Abbott
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ReHerakhte
Hey, you're welcome Graebarde,
I sometimes trawl through the old posts I archived after reading some of the posts here and find something every now and then that's worth bringing up in conversation but there was so much good stuff in this collection that I felt it was worth re-posting the whole lot rather than try and condense it.
As for my take on the Op Omega/Winter scenario, I recall a saying from some military publication many years back that stated "Amateurs talk about strategy & tactics, professionals talk about logistics", logistics... moving something from here to there, so my primary thoughts are - vehicles & POL and food.
No matter what else happens, you need to move the troops out to their re-assignments or you need to move food etc, into the port area. With all their heavy equipment left in Germany, the arriving troops will not have any serious transport capacity and you can only march on foot so far in a day...
I figure there are likely to be a good number of General Service (GS) trucks available in CONUS as well as the cargo variants of the various Humvee and CUCV vehicles but would it be enough? A number of GS equivalent trucks could probably be taken up from civilian sources but there is still the issue of fuel acquisistion & distribution. No matter what, we are back to trying to 'push a little real world facts & figures' into the game setting. If it were only around 10 000 troops returning, it still equates to at least 10 000 meals a day for however long it takes to move them on... then there's the problems of resupplying them while they are travelling to their re-assignments...
So, my basic problem with Op Omega is essentially: - how am I going to move supplies for 40 000+ to the port or move 40 000+ troops out of the port.
Now I know acquiring that much food is definately a problem but I keep getting stuck on the problem of logistics and organization of such a task (too many real world worries for a game perhaps!)
Cheers,
Kevin
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graebarde
Transportation will be a problem. Not so much finding the vehicles, but the fuel to run the vehicles. Not only is moving by foot slow, it takes alot of extra energy, which is the problem in the first place. Now it has been three years since the mushrooms sprouted. I realize there have been problems: drought, domestic strife, etc to get in the way of recovery, BUT since we're now discussing logistics, what about the railroads?
Yep, they spread across the country. There is nowhere they are not within atleast a days walk, except possibly in the mountains or desert country of the west. The RR is the most efficient way to move tonnages on a ton-mile per gallon for land movements. The rolling stock is there, the lines are there (I cant see them just disappearing, or ppl tearing them up for nothing, though there would be areas this happened). If I were an area commander, getting the train running to my fringes would be a priority. I could move troops back and forth easier, move the food and fuels from the hinterland, and keep moving out. IF I were the higher commander, it would be the way I would link my areas.
The biggest problem is motive power. Howmuch damage has been done to the diesel-electric engines (and I don't mean the engine itself, but the WHOLE engine.. that seems confuzing dont it).. There are alot of areas in the country were before the day, they had operating steam engines. Maybe it's cuz I'm a train nut, but there again, I would be harvesting any operational steamengine I could find. That in itself is a reason to get the coal mines working. Heating for the population in winter is essential in MOST of the US. Yeah I know coal is dirty, and most places dont have the way to burn it, but a drum stove is relatively easy to construct, and it sure beats freezing. Feed the miners well and they heat the country and keep it moving.
In the interum, if the D-E engines are not functional, or you can't find the steam engines (and ppl to operate either), heavy trucks CAN be modified to run on the rails. The hardest thing about moving a train, is getting it rolling (of course beiing able to stop it helps too). And speaking of trucks. THis country is FULL of trucks.. 18-wheelers abound. I envision land trains, especially if the commander does not want to 'bother' with the railroads <shudders at the idea>. Land trains would entail a large tractor/truck pulling multiple trailers (more than three or four). Here again it would be getting them rolling, and stopping. But, the more you haul the more 'fuel efficient' you are per ton-mile or passenger-mile. It's not so much how much fuel you expend totally, but how efficiently you use your limited assets.. THAT is LOGISTICS.
I hope this sparks some ideas. I appologize for the rambling thought (it's toooo damn early..)
grae
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TR
I think definately to move food in and out of the area as well as personnel you could see the return of any and all of the following:
1.) Trains, a big one as there's all the lines run already that might have to be serviced but still entact. Now the trains themselves, well there's a lot of museums around the USA that have antique trains in them so that might be a place to start.
2.) Horse Drawn Carriages, as silly as this one sounds you could see the return of horse carriages as means of transporting half a dozen or more (depending on the size of the carriage) around... but obviously the pony express system would need to be emulated again for way stations for fresh horses, water, food, etc.
3.) Riverine Traffic, this was a major transportation source during the war of 1812 so I don't see why it might not be used again in some areas of the country. The old paddle wheel boats would be an interesting sight to see going up river laden with troops and mounted with machine-guns...
However none of these would be easy, each has inherent problems associated with them. So you end up taking the bad with the good. However walking would be the last resort, as most folk would be scared of armed drifters going through their areas.
Until Later
TR
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Abbott Shaull
Yes, I could see several of the inherited network systems being used.
The River systems would be one of the first and easiest to exploits due to the large number boats on the Countries waterways. You would need members of the US Corps Engineer or similiar background to help keep these water ways flowing if you planned on using anything, but shallow draft vessel for extended period of time. The Steam power conversion may take a while to catch on, but then again there are limited number of impliments out there that still these engines along the Mississippi River Valley and even on the Great Lakes as well as other locations.
The railroad system there are still several Steam Power units, there are also several road vehicles that have been outfitted to work tracks. One thing to remember is the EMP. Now many Railroad Engine would have been left on in the North after the tail end of October so desiel lines wouldn't freeze. They don't use anti-freeze, IIRC what a rail crew told me this past winter. Also in some locations, I can see miles of track(okay limited to a couple miles here and there) in either direction being dismember to inprove local fortifications especailly in area where Marauders are a problem.
Gee this has me thinking of some places where they had Rail-yards. Several Cities have them or they have multiple rail line running through town. I can just imagine what some of the Fortifcation some towns and cities could come up with. I mean Sault here has a small Railyard and couple miles of rail lines not used alone. Detroit Lakes, MN had a small switching yard and it was dual track for miles on the BNSF main line and they had CN(old Soo line). These are cities of between 7000 to 15000 before the war. Cities like Jackson with pre war population of around 30 to 40000 would had Conrail yard(now NS). Or these railyards extra tracks could be used to rebuild former lines that were torn up in the 80s and 90s depending on what the local need is. I see several Highway vehicle being converted for use on rails.
As for the road/insterstate network. As was pointed out in one game it would be almost five years since there was any real systematic upgrade to these road way. If I-75 up here in the UP could be used as an example(that is before the last couple years) with the potholes and what not. It would still add to maintanence of the fleet. Also there are all of those bridge is several parts of the nation that up until say the last 5 to 10 years that have been found to be in much more need of repair that previous thought(Ingham County, MI is a great example of this). I see a lot of roadway Bridge failures out there.
On the plus side with limited fuel the damage done by having thousands of vehicle using the roadway daily would decrease, but without upkeep maintanence it wouldn't take long for it go to sh*t either. You also have the problem of all of those vehicles during the Nuclear striked due to EMP. For the Semis yes their trailer could be used for. So Land trains could be an option, but would the cost of resource be really justified.
The real problem with all three networks is that once you move out an Area of Control from any population center. You would run into various choke points that would have to be cleared every so often by military or local militia. Even then it wouldn't be 100% certain that Marauder/Pirate band hasn't set up an ambush waiting. Especially if these route see lots of travel. Even in the society today there are number of Semi-trucks that get stolen.
Actually with the extensive transportation network that was in place in US, UK, and Germany. I find it really hard that those left in charge after the Nuke were being used didn't used each of these networks in their respective countries to their government full advantage.
Just some of my thoughts on the subject...
Abbott
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thefusilier
Hello,
I also remember that in Airlords of the Ozarks, the history on Memphis mentioned a local militia demanding tolls for using the riverways. This would imply to me that this form of transportation was already in place. It also might also imply that setting up tolls might be more advantageous than ambushing these civilian and military convoys. In some areas the military might not have the strength to challenge this and be forced to give in until they could launch an operation to remove the militia (Like they did in Memphis) I don't know, just some thoughts roaming about.
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ReHerakhte
G'Day all,
In regard to the Land Train concept, as Graebarde pointed out, with suitable prime movers (I think you call them tractors in the US), you can haul a stack of trailers. Here in Australia they use exactly that concept to supply many of the outback towns with three trailers hitched to one prime mover being standard but tests have been done with up to five trailers. They carry anything that needs to be moved from icecream to house bricks.
As some useless info, over here we call them Road Trains, if I can locate a pic I'll post it up.
Better still, here's a link to the Big Foto site's Aussie section
http://www.bigfoto.com/sites/galery/..._roadtrain.jpg
And another site I found 5 mins after posting this has a bucket load of pics of road trains, some with 4 trailers, some good pics for showing to Players but the site loads up slow due it having a stack of thumbnails
http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/mohr4.htm
And as for motive power for railroads, it was not uncommon in the past to use horses or oxen to haul railcars for short distances, as Grae pointed out, it's all a matter of getting them moving and also stopped but I recall some mention that a team of horses could pull 8-10 small flatcars/wagons without too much trouble. Downhill would be a bitch tho...
Cheers,
Kevin
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graebarde
Hey Kev..
Realy liked that site with all the road trains/land trains. Now if THAT doesnt give someone ideas NOTHING will.
Abbott,
The use of multiple trailers with tractors is more economical from fuel and manpower than the equivalent short trucks. For example, it would take 3 to 4 (MAYBE MORE) 5-ton trucks to haul the equivallant cargo of ONE semi trailer, with ONE engine, and ONE driver. Now if said tractor is pulling TRIPLES you have ONE engine with ONE driver hauling the cargo of AT LEAST TEN 5-tonners.
And diesel engines will probably fare better under EMP than the gas driven, it all depends on the injector setups.. I know the new trucks use electronic fuel control, so they would be toasted probly, but older diesels, early 90's and before, the ONLY electrical item they had to cause problems was the glow plug relay, and that is easly changed out, and common. IT acutally can be bypassed manually with a toggel mount, just remeber to turn the damn thing off...
Choke points and targets.. ANY route will have it's choke point eventually I think. That is where the security comes in. That is where outposts are placed, etc. And I think they would still be running in convoy, esp through areas of suspected dangers.
As for the bad roads, well they were gravel along time before they were hard surfaced. And heavy vehicles take their toll on any road, but it is SPEED combined with teh weight that causes most of the damage, so if the speed is kept low, there is not the POUNDING form viabrations that give roads the washboard surface, and create huge potholes (yes there are other factors involcved caused by nature, but the leading contributor is weight AND speed. ONE of the reason trcuks had lower speed limits, and THE reason for weight limits on axels in the spring time in the northlands.)
THAT is where any surplus people are put to work, filling pot holes. OR it could be prison gang work as it was in the past.
grae
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Abbott Shaull
Okay. Now that I see some of the fact behind the logic of land trains. Yeah, it would be put what of the interstate and US route systems to good use. Like there would be much traffic to interfer with anyway anymore.
Sorry, I am the type of person who has to have stuff in broken down a bit before it make sense.
Yes, I can see all types of force labor for prisoners in T2K than they allow now adays...lol...
Abbott
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Chuck Mandus
Count me in too, I'd love to see it
Chuck
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TR
Let's not forget not only road crews would be required but also the mechanics needed to keep the trucks and cargo modules operational... not ot mention industry to make repair parts, tires, fuel and the like... nothing is impossibile.
Later
TR