Matt Wiser 09-02-2008, 05:09 PM There was a thread a while back about female PCs/NPCs in combat, but no real explanation of how women got to be in ground combat and SOF jobs they were/are (IRL) excluded from. So here's one possible explanation: After the combat exclusion for women in combat aircraft and surface warships was lifted in 1993, the Clinton Administration gets Congress in 1994 (before the midterm election) to authorize a pilot program to evaluate women in jobs that they are excluded from. This means SOF, infantry, armor, field artillery, and even subs. This might explain Capt. Molly Warren in her slot in the 116th ACR, for example. This also explains a female SEAL in my group, (worn the Trident since 1996, and then the balloon goes up) and other female military NPCs in combat jobs pre-TDM.
Even before TDM, as attrition develops, Corps and Division COs would want slots filled by who's the best qualified, regardless of gender. Post TDM, it's get the slot filled, period. The exclusion law is now just a worthless piece of paper, so anyone qualifies.
Comments or thoughts?
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Raellus 09-02-2008, 08:02 PM An interesting idea. Sounds entirely reasonable.
You wouldn't necessarily need an executive order, though, to get more women into the combat arms. My thoughts are that when rear echelon troops began to be pressed into service as front-line troops, women were included as well. Even before '94, there were plenty of women in the services and drivers and MPs aren't really that far removed from the front line troops. It's not much of a stretch. It's mainly a question of the best way to utilize available manpower (pardon the pun).
There are plenty of ways for women to find their way into the combat arms by 2000.
In my campaign, as PCs, I've got a former MP, later assigned to the combat engineers, an Israeli nurse who'd been part of a pre-TDM medical exchange program, and a former Polish Navy CPO beached after the annihilation of the Baltic Fleet and, as of late, working as an advisor to the Krakow ORMO in their attempt to create a brown-water naval force.
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copeab 09-02-2008, 09:06 PM An unusual option for an Albanian female PC is to have become a sworn virgin.
http://www.jolique.com/gender/crossing_boundaries.htm
Brandon
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Matt Wiser 09-02-2008, 09:44 PM Actually, you do need Congressional approval. The combat exclusions are not military regs, but are written into law. It's part of Title 10 of the U.S. Code. You'd have to have Congress approve the pilot program, and prewar, depending on the results of the program, approve a repeal or keep the exclusion in place. However, once the U.S gets involved in the war big time, such things get put on the back burner. And as qualified females finish their combat arms training, they get sent to wherever they're needed.
I know Canada has done away with their exclusions, and does have female infantry, armor, etc. Anyone know how other NATO members have gone? The Brits are pretty much similar to us currently (no ground combat or SOF), but anyone know how other NATO countries handle this issue?
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Hangfire7 09-02-2008, 10:48 PM A simple way is to have incrimental moves. They remove the ban on them in combat units, just no direct combat roles.
Thus a unit say an infantry Battallion can now have female clerks, drivers and others who are not direct combatants. Then as the war progresses they are finding themselves pressed into direct combat billets as man power becomes critical. And then the trend takes hold back home in the states. And then the rule is basicaly forgotten as an expediency of the war.
And that can explain how Captain Molly Warren came to be.
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Targan 09-02-2008, 11:56 PM In the Australian Army you have women in combat support roles but not in direct combat roles. In my campaign I've assumed that where you do find women in NATO units in combat roles they are strictly voluntary assignments. There are not many women in Major Po's unit and only two of them (both NPCs) are prominent. One is the aforementioned Sgt La Toya Martinez and she is a seriously scary woman. Since getting back to the CONUS Martinez has started a relationship with a Canadian mortarman in Po's service, Cpl Virgil Morris Price. Before the war Price was a reasonably well known porn star with the stage name 'John le Prong'. During the game the party found some of Price's videos in NYC and a good laugh was had by all.
The other is Sgt Li Li Fang, US Army Signaller who is (since Bremerhaven) Po's girlfriend and personal comms operator. Fang is a funny one when it comes to combat - when things get really hairy she has a tendancy to scream really loud and high-pitched for the duration but after the first round of screaming she usually starts blasting away with her M-16. The screaming does tend to get in the way of her job as a signaller so she'll have to get a handle on that eventually. She's actually saved several PCs' arses on a few occassions because she's quite a good shot and a small target. She's a petit, absolutely gorgeous San Francisco Chinese chick.
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Mohoender 09-03-2008, 02:10 AM Sorry to ask that in this way and please don't take it as an offense. Are you that backward about women in the military in the US? Then, can you give me some hint on the current US regulation about it? My only source of information on that matter is JAG (and you have plenty of women in it). If I recall you had some flying bombers (so not in action) as soon as WWII.
It seems that we are well ahead and usually on women matters France is not that much of a model. They can be found everywhere (19% of the personnel) except for the submarines and the Mobile Gendarmerie (it might change soon). We have some fighter pilots and at least a general.
I clearly see why Kadaffi has a 200 women unit for bodyguards.
A quarter of the Eritrean army is made of women
Canada allowed them as soon as 1982
Denmark (since 1978), Sweden or New Zealand have no restrictions.
Britain has allowed them everywhere and their commander in chief is still a woman (Queen Elisabeth II)
Poland allow them everywhere (only recently so).
Finland gave them the same status as men
Norway was the first country to allow them on subs.
I think Israel has several with 83% of positions allowed to them (including various combat ones).
Germany is improving.
Sabiha Gökçen (March 22, 1913, Bursa—March 22, 2001, Ankara) was the first female combat pilot in the world, as well as the first Turkish female aviator.
In case of war Russia will certainly have plenty as in WWII when it had women driving tanks and several in snipers units. In 1967, the Russian Universal Military Duty Laws concluded that women offered the greater source of available combat soldiers during periods of large scale mobilisation.
More or less, all of these came to be in the early 1990's with a few before.
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Targan 09-03-2008, 02:59 AM Are you that backward about women in the military in the US?It is said (though never officially confirmed) that Delta has a "Funny Platoon" of female operators. In any case I don't think the US or Australia are backward for not having women in direct combat roles. Combat support is fine. We had a handful of females in my basic training intake and sure they were tough chicks and I admired them for their guts but not one of them could have stood up to me or most of the guys in hand to hand combat. They would have been smashed to a bloody pulp. Why subject women to the brutality of a bayonet charge? Madness. The other problem was the carrying of heavy loads. The girls I did basic training with were all strong (for girls) but when it came to stretcher carries and lugging crates of ammo and such they just couldn't keep up as well as the men. People might see my views as old fashioned or even sexist but I'm no misogynist, I'm just practical. Oh, and one last thing. I think we all know what would happen to most women that became POWs don't we? Not nice at all.
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weswood 09-03-2008, 05:41 AM I can't say anything about current regulations concerning women, I've been out too long.
I think Targan hit the nail on the head concerning women in combat roles. The unit I last served with was a Headquarters Company for a reserve Marine Corps infantry battalion. We had several WMs (Woman Marines) who could just not cut it when we went ot the field. We were consistantly "helping" some of them- carrying their packs and weapons, and in one case supporting her- on marches. And this was a reserve unit, we didn't exactly go on long field exercises.
One thing that's always pissed me off is the physical fitness standards are different for women. For example, the yearly PT test for male Marines was a timed 3 mile run; a set of pull ups, and a timed set of sit ups. For the women, if I remember right, was a 1.5 mile run, a timed "dead hang" and a timed set of crunches. IMO, if they're want to be equal to men- same jobs, same pay, same ranks,etc- they need the same training.
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Mohoender 09-03-2008, 06:10 AM It is said (though never officially confirmed) that Delta has a "Funny Platoon" of female operators. In any case I don't think the US or Australia are backward for not having women in direct combat roles. Combat support is fine. We had a handful of females in my basic training intake and sure they were tough chicks and I admired them for their guts but not one of them could have stood up to me or most of the guys in hand to hand combat. They would have been smashed to a bloody pulp. Why subject women to the brutality of a bayonet charge? Madness. The other problem was the carrying of heavy loads. The girls I did basic training with were all strong (for girls) but when it came to stretcher carries and lugging crates of ammo and such they just couldn't keep up as well as the men. People might see my views as old fashioned or even sexist but I'm no misogynist, I'm just practical. Oh, and one last thing. I think we all know what would happen to most women that became POWs don't we? Not nice at all.
I think your point is well defended and not old fashioned (even if I disagree). Backward was a bit offensive I confess it but as I red it, I figured that the USA are still refusing women in most combat role. First, I'm not sure that they wouldn't be more than a match as they would certainly not use only brutal force (in that case, the soviets using them as snipers or tank crewers were more than rights). One question so, are you all using bowls protection in the military? Second, They can drive tanks or whatever combat vehicles, or fire artillery as done for the israelis.
For my parts, if a company of men was to face a company of women, I'll bet on the women (that might be the main reason for not having them).
The main reason for including them is that they might want it and on that one you might have been slightly sexist (then, I'll agree that they should be treated as men, no favor). In our case, it's also a question of respecting our Constitution. About what might happen to them, sorry but they must know it and I'm sure you can be as bad with a man. By the way, that might happen to them anyway if they don't fight, as it always did. About the bayonnet charge I agree that it is madness but it is madness in all cases. Strangely, women often die from these (or knives).
I happen to read a comment from a french infantry corporal who had fought in Kosovo and Ivory coast. Her main problem was that the men's superiority feelings were shaken. Strangely, it was said in a book about women from all over the world and you could design a general comment from it: "men are leasy and they don't have guts". Strange that women, in France, US, Australia, Afghanistan, Cameroon, Libya, Russia, China... are all coming out with the same kind of comments.
As I already said I have great respects for soldiers but in the meantime I find war insane and I agree with those saying that if we don't find an alternative to war, humanity will be doomed on short notice. Sadly, we haven't found an alternative so don't put any volunteers aside.
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Mohoender 09-03-2008, 06:21 AM I can't say anything about current regulations concerning women, I've been out too long.
One thing that's always pissed me off is the physical fitness standards are different for women. For example, the yearly PT test for male Marines was a timed 3 mile run; a set of pull ups, and a timed set of sit ups. For the women, if I remember right, was a 1.5 mile run, a timed "dead hang" and a timed set of crunches. IMO, if they're want to be equal to men- same jobs, same pay, same ranks,etc- they need the same training.
I think that you, in fact made the right point, having different evaluations is crazy. Moreover, having women in combat role doesn't mean that they are equal to men. It simply imply that they have habilities of their own and that they might perform as well or even better in some fields (not only typing and cleaning wounds).
Then, you are right, to know about it and to form everyone correctly, you must give everyone the same training.
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copeab 09-03-2008, 06:24 AM We had a handful of females in my basic training intake and sure they were tough chicks and I admired them for their guts but not one of them could have stood up to me or most of the guys in hand to hand combat. They would have been smashed to a bloody pulp.
I think we can blame Hollywood for this, with the myth that any determined 50 kg woman can spin kick a swath through any number of 100 kg men.
Brandon
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dude_uk 09-03-2008, 10:06 AM Britain has allowed them everywhere and their commander in chief is still a woman (Queen Elisabeth II)
Er...no. Women cannot serve in frontline combat roles (Armour, infantry etc) Submarines. Women have attempted the Royal marines Commando course (The most demanding in NATO)though none have passed yet. And they don't serve in Submarines.
In twilight the first editon it talks of a female U.S ranger, so i guess its opened up to women in the twilight 90's.
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pmulcahy 09-03-2008, 12:04 PM Regardless of the jog (and whether civilian or military), the only thing I'm interested in is, "Can they do the job?" In the Army, I've met women who could have done quite well in the Infantry, and I met men who couldn't physically hack it enough to get out of Basic.
As far as what might happen if women get into the thick of combat, I have news: It's already happened, it's happening in increasing numbers, and it's probably been happening since the first woman picked up a stick to ward off animals or food thieves.
In almost any conflict today, there are no front lines anymore. Insurgent warfare in conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan, terrorism, the pace of modern warfare, airmobile operations, and the increasing use of special operations troops have made the concept of a "front line" behind which you are relatively safe dissolve away.
Like it or not, our women are in combat. They need to be trained and equipped to do the job. Gone are the days when (like I saw at 2 ID HQ in Korea) it was reasonable to expect a G4 paperwork clerk to not know how to set a Claymore, or which end of an AT-4 was which. Everyone has got to be able to kick ass and take names.
Oh, and all this would apply 10,000x in a Twilight 2000-type world. That cute little 9-year girl whose land you've stumbled onto might just blow your head off rather than ask questions.
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Targan 09-03-2008, 12:27 PM Well I say again that I show no bias in my campaign - some female characters including Molly Warren, La Toya Martinez and Li Li Fang have kicked arse and taken names in my campaign. They were all capable and they all volunteered for combat roles. But their average strength stats were well below the average strength stats of the men in Po's unit and their encumbrance penalties were greater when they were forced to carry heavy loads. And of the three I named only Martinez could be described an "enthusiastic expert" at hand to hand.
And as I said before IRL women are allowed in combat support roles in the Australian Defence Forces and therefore will from time to time see combat. They may even do well in combat. But I am of the belief that the job of locating and destroying the enemy in ground combat, especially close quarters battle, is a job best conducted by men. I understand others may feel differently but I will not be disuaded from my opinion in these matters.
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Mohoender 09-03-2008, 12:42 PM All very interesting points.
Thanks dude uk, it seems I made a mistake on that one but I wasn't sure about all of them. Actually, the info on UK wasn't clear at all and I was making a wild guess from what I found (that proved to be wrong).
I have a question, nevertheless. How is it possible that women cannot serve in frontline combat roles but apply to the Royal Marines Commando? The fact that none has passed only proves that your selection system is wise : I assume it is as demanding for women as it is for men.
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Hangfire7 09-03-2008, 02:50 PM I voiced my view on how it could happen in the T2K world. In the real world. BAD MOJO!
An example a good freind who was going for ARMY OCS, she left for basic almost a year ago to this very day. She is now recovering from orthopedic surgery. She did not have any real traumatic injury, but doing the day to day marching and the pitiful ruck marches and field time one does in basic was enough to give her a stress fracture in the fibula and in both sides of her pelvis. She is now going to have some serious issues for life.
Sadly when I was in the MC and I was recovering from my injury stuck in REMF units that were coed, the majority of the women were on some form of limited duty that almost always bared them from phsyical training and field operations. Some was malingering, some was they had injured themselves just trying to keep up with the guys. So, in combat, what happens when you are really pushing it they will become injured quicker and more severly, thus leaving the unit short handed. Or, you slow the tempo of the operation down to accomidate them.
Other examples, when on temporary duty in the motor repair shop of the brigade it was filled with a good number of women. The Top who ran it had most of the women working in the offices or the parts room. Only 2 worked the floor as mechanics. One could NOT even lift her own tool box. She could not lift any of the parts, nor was she strong enough to put decent torque on bolts to break them free or really lock them down.
My X was a helo mech or so she was slated to become. However, when I let her try her hand at tightening the valve cover on my truck. I found them to be finger tight.
My point, its a waste of manpower if you have to have a guy leave his duty to constantly help or check a womans work.
Other little things, what if I at 6-2 am on a patrol with a woman, a mine blows my feet off and we are about to be over run? What is going to happen? I do not see a girl tossing me over her shoulder and us getting out of dodge. Can one manhandle a .50 into place on a humvee, or a case of 40mm for the MK-19? Or a mortar chick, often we would hump with our guns fully assembled so we can get them in action instantly, or to shoot and skoot one man wuld just grab the whole system and run away with it. Can a girl do that?
Those are just some of the issues that I see problems with. There are ALOT more, but I won't go on about cost, a two tier equipment system due to body build and things like that or the sexual tension and pettiness that would occur since most military personel are in their late teens and early 20s! ARGH!!!!!! I would pitty their commanders.
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Mohoender 09-03-2008, 03:27 PM Other little things, what if I at 6-2 am on a patrol with a woman, a mine blows my feet off and we are about to be over run? What is going to happen? I do not see a girl tossing me over her shoulder and us getting out of dodge. Can one manhandle a .50 into place on a humvee, or a case of 40mm for the MK-19? Or a mortar chick, often we would hump with our guns fully assembled so we can get them in action instantly, or to shoot and skoot one man wuld just grab the whole system and run away with it. Can a girl do that?
She will not carry you away but she might very well blow your head off and start firing again (too bad for you). About the .50 I know many who could do that easily.
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Hangfire7 09-03-2008, 05:39 PM An M2 .50 Caliber Browning? Well that is then when I enact my rules of dating.
1.) Never date a woman who can kick my ass
2.) Never date a woman who is bigger than me. Why? see rule 1
Now, here is the test for the woman who can lift a .50, can she hump it and its gear on a road march and still function afterwards?
And here I go,
Men and women are built different.
military gear is built for me, based on mens bodies. And that is in part why women have some problems with injury and fitting of gear. So the larger number of women, the larger numbers of injuries, unless you adopt equipment specialy designed for women, which means it needs to go through the entire process of taking bids and then contracts that the adoption of new equipment goes through, research, developement, testing etc etc. And then getting it into the supply system. Now, how is it allocated? Special order? Then it is not readily avialable. A specific percentage and thus playing the "odds" as to the number of women and the sizes of the women? An example, I have a freind who was in the Marines and only once in her entire time in the Corps did she ever have boots her size. As an infantryman my boots are as valauble as my rifle. And a good set of boots it critical, they are poor my feet are destroyed and I am less than useless, I am now a liability.
Now, multiply that times however women you have in the unit times however female specific items of kit.
Also, they are called "fire teams" and "gun teams" it is a team effort where everyone carrys their own load. It is not communism where each according to their needs and according to their abilities. If I have to hump some womans gear because she can't handle her part of the guns gear she makes it harder on me and I will be one pissed off mo fo! That is the thing, in the grunts you carry your own. If a freind is hurting then sure help him out. but someone hurting because they are sick or have a messed up knee or ankle is a temporary thing, it is not every field op. If you have a person who can not carry their own load each and everytime, well they have them and they are not popular people. I had an A-gunner who couldn't carry his share of our gear, thus I ended up humping an extra 40 pounds of ammo and gear because he couldn't hack it and was a whinny bitch. And I made him aware he was a bitch and he got bitch slapped like the bitch he was. And his new name was "bitch <then his last name>" If I tried that with a woman I would have lost stripes even if they weren't able to hump their own gear.
Its a good argument, and it is possible if they are totaly mech, sure a modern mechanized field can level the playing field. But what happens when the mechanized whatever doesn't work? Then you have to dfo it the old way? Then what?
"Sir, the autoloader to the 205mm gun is down!"
"Well Lt have the gun crew manualy load it!"
"Sir, they can' lift the shells!"
End result, the gun is down because the crew <assuming its a female crew> can't do their job.
I have been on many working party unloading bales, boxes and such where you form a human chain tossing them from man or woman to man from the delivery vehicle to the loading area.
The one weak section that always had provlem and forced a stoppage where people had to hold on to a heavy article was because the women couldn't hold, catch or toss the item or they kept on dropping the items. It was BS!!!!!!!
And then how can a woman handle a stretcher carry? I recall whe I got hurt, the women who were on my right side couldn't hold me and actualy dropped me. Not good.
So, its a biology issue which is big.
And then we have cost. Do we have coed things or go with seperate but equal? Do we maitnain the standards or have a different set of standards for women? And agsain what is the cost involved in having a whole new units and facilities geared specificaly for women? As well as time to do so. How much would it cost to traina woman vs. a man?
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DeaconR 09-03-2008, 05:39 PM I think that the reasons might just come down to necessity. I also believe this: I think that if we're being honest that while it's unlikely that women would qualify for some kinds of units that in modern warfare everywhere is part of the combat zone. So let's suggest this:
1. The Molly Warren types would be unusual but not unlikely--they would probably have unexpectedly come to be in command and be found to be amazing combat leaders. This is something more likely to happen in wartime, especially something like the Twilight War than in peacetime.
2. Then you have the women who are in supply units, signals, medics, all that kind of thing. These women are likely to be close to hot zones and might find themselves in TW2000 unexpectedly having to bail out with a few other survivors. It would also include unusual groups like the USS Constitution--let's face it the CO of that ship in the game was in her position at the start and remaining in it would require more of a cool head, reasonably decent health and leadership ability than anything else.
3. Partisans, marauders, gang members, religious fanatics, survivalists. The requirements held out by regular military units don't really apply here. This covers for example the female characters in King's Ransom and Allegheny Uprising.
4. Then there are plain survivors. If we're talking ordinary people or uncommon ones (say cops or just women who live out on a ranch or farm and are used to handling a rifle or shotgun) they probably would not have lived long unless they lived in well controlled areas without cleansing the world of some bad guys.
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weswood 09-03-2008, 05:56 PM Second, They can drive tanks or whatever combat vehicles, .
Now that's just crazy talk. Have you seen a soccer mom in an SUV? And you want them to drive TANKS??????? Y'er scaring me.
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rcaf_777 09-03-2008, 06:34 PM It should be noted that while Canada has allowed women in combat roles since 1982 (Which was a Court Ruling) not many women have opted for combat roles and those who have are far between, the like Canadian Women in Combat Role would be reservist or National Guard as you will or combat support rolls, hell my trade in the army is full of them, some times I feel like the last man on earth when I attend carreer breifs
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Matt Wiser 09-03-2008, 07:14 PM Current jobs off-limits in the U.S. Military: Infantry, Armor, Field Artillery at battalion level and below, Nearly all SOF except for Delta's "Funny Platoon"-the gals who look like airline stewardesses or reporters and yet can break your neck or fill you full of holes with their MP-5 or SIG-Sauer....., and in the Navy, subs and special boat squadrons-which is strange since AF women fly special-ops helos and C-130 variants. AF has Pararescue and Combat Control still off-limits. USCG has no restrictions.
Black Madonna has Molly Warren joining the 116th ACR in 1994 (probably just as the combat evaluation for women was getting started), so she may have been one of a few women in the 116th in the program. She won a DSC in 1996 or '97-pre TDM apparently.
My guess (and this is only a guess) is that once the Iraq War is done, there will be Congressional movement to toss the remaining restrictions. You've had women under fire, and actually putting lead into the bad guys in both Iraq and Afghanistan, with MP units doing a lot of infantry-style work (Remember the Raven 42 incident-a female MP Sgt. won a Silver Star for breaking up a convoy ambush-37 bad guys KIA'd). There was a female medic in the 82nd Airborne in A-Stan who also won a Silver Star for dragging wounded guys out of a Hummer that took an IED-and she was under fire the whole time. Though she got a Silver Star, some in the unit felt (according to the Houston Chronicle) that she deserved a higer award. Like Paul says, there's no rear area. No safe place. And any unit can find itself in deep trouble with the bad guys-the 507th Maintenance Company on 23 March 2003 is the most famous example. Even in ODS there was no safe place-the SCUD attack at Dhahran on 25 Feb 91; and ask Spec. Melissa Coleman (nee Rathbun-Nealy): she was riding in a truck that took a wrong turn and wound up in Khafji just after the Iraqis seized the town; 32 days as a POW.....
There was a book about a year or so ago called Imperial Soldiers, which was about the Army since 9-11 and going to A-Stan and Iraq. The chapter on the SF was about the 5th SFG, and they had to borrow female soldiers from regular units to search local women during raids, checkpoints, etc. Apparently the CO of the 5th was making plans to recommend that women be allowed to join SF as a result of the 5th's experience, according to the book. And the women they borrowed wanted to join the SF after their TDY-apparently something besides searching local women and kids must have happened!
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Targan 09-04-2008, 12:26 AM 1.) Never date a woman who can kick my ass
2.) Never date a woman who is bigger than me. Why? see rule 1My daughter's mum is taller than me and I'm glad she wasn't the aggressive type because she had a longer reach than me
But despite her size and reasonable strength for a girl she struggled to lift me but I could carry her no problem. Good that she is so tall though, my daughter is likely to be as tall as me or taller.
I had an A-gunner who couldn't carry his share of our gear, thus I ended up humping an extra 40 pounds of ammo and gear because he couldn't hack it and was a whinny bitch. And I made him aware he was a bitch and he got bitch slapped like the bitch he was.Good work.
I have been on many working party unloading bales, boxes and such where you form a human chain tossing them from man or woman to man from the delivery vehicle to the loading area. The one weak section that always had provlem and forced a stoppage where people had to hold on to a heavy article was because the women couldn't hold, catch or toss the item or they kept on dropping the items. It was BS!!!!!!!.Agreed. I mentioned in an earlier post that girls I served with had major problems carrying items like full ammo crates and it meant more work for the men around them.
And then how can a woman handle a stretcher carry? I recall whe I got hurt, the women who were on my right side couldn't hold me and actualy dropped me. Not good.Agreed. I mentioned precisely this problem in an earlier post.
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copeab 09-04-2008, 01:42 AM The feeling I'm getting from several of you here is that, if you had a 35 man rifle platoon that was down to 20 men, you would rather replace the lost men with enemy POWs or local civilians or just go understrength than fill the empty slots with women from your own military. Because this really is the issue with women in T2K -- filling positions you don't have enough of your own men for.
Frankly, I wouldn't trust the POWs or locals and I can hardly see how a 20 man/15 woman platoon is less effective than a 20 man platoon.
Brandon
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kato13 09-04-2008, 02:30 AM As far as the physical aspects I remember reading a couple years back when all 8 male runners in the Illinois High School 100 meter dash finals beat the Women's world record. These were boys (runners peak at 27 generally) and they did not have nearly the training of the record holder. That means that there are possibly tens of thousands of men faster than the fastest women ever. This indicates to me that as far as special ops go there would be one woman per thousand maximum who could keep up physically IMO.
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thefusilier 09-04-2008, 06:01 AM The feeling I'm getting from several of you here is that, if you had a 35 man rifle platoon that was down to 20 men, you would rather replace the lost men with enemy POWs or local civilians or just go understrength than fill the empty slots with women from your own military. Because this really is the issue with women in T2K -- filling positions you don't have enough of your own men for.
Frankly, I wouldn't trust the POWs or locals and I can hardly see how a 20 man/15 woman platoon is less effective than a 20 man platoon.
Brandon
I agree with Brandon (the other one). And besides the trust issue, I've seen more than a few girls in the infantry put to shame guys. There's more to being a soldier than how much you can bench press.
Little bit of trivia - Croats in the Yugo wars liked to recruit females as snipers over the men. Women usually have more patience than men and performed much better in the shooting as well.
Brandon
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Headquarters 09-04-2008, 06:16 AM some jobs are better suited for men -imho.Carrying a 50 kg Bergen , 10 kg combat gear and rifle in rocky steep terrain in hard weather with little rest -
someone with the musclemass and stamina to do that would be better suited.
Then again women in poor countries walk 10 miles with a 5 gallon water jerry can on their heads and a 10 pound baby on their back in bandit infested bush country every day many places.
Women can certainly perform -as they show every day in armed services all over the world -look to the Red Army in WWII-hundredsof thousands of female soldiers doing all manner of jobs.
A lot of the no women behind the wheel stuff comes from chauvenism .But then again there are studies that show that cohesion in a small unit can break down if the casualties are female .
Our army have a co-ed solution -separate showers though.
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Rainbow Six 09-04-2008, 11:22 AM I'd go along with the view that women would start the War in various non combat roles (or the Air Force) but would be gradually absorbed in to combat units to fill vacant slots as the casualty count increased.
I think it comes back to the viewpoint that in the Year 2000 more or less everyone in uniform is an infantryman - or in this case, an infantrywoman...
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pmulcahy 09-04-2008, 11:44 AM 1.) Never date a woman who can kick my ass
The first girl I went out with after starting college was one who I was sparring with in Hapkido class. I made a smart, somewhat-sexist remark, and she hit me with a step-in side thrust kick that not only knocked me off my feet, but knocked the wind completely out of me and cracked a rib. I was impressed. I asked her out the next day, and we dated for about six months.
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Mohoender 09-04-2008, 12:26 PM The first girl I went out with after starting college was one who I was sparring with in Hapkido class. I made a smart, somewhat-sexist remark, and she hit me with a step-in side thrust kick that not only knocked me off my feet, but knocked the wind completely out of me and cracked a rib. I was impressed. I asked her out the next day, and we dated for about six months.
Smart choice :beer:
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Hangfire7 09-04-2008, 02:05 PM The feeling I'm getting from several of you here is that, if you had a 35 man rifle platoon that was down to 20 men, you would rather replace the lost men with enemy POWs or local civilians or just go understrength than fill the empty slots with women from your own military. Because this really is the issue with women in T2K -- filling positions you don't have enough of your own men for.
Frankly, I wouldn't trust the POWs or locals and I can hardly see how a 20 man/15 woman platoon is less effective than a 20 man platoon.
Brandon
I platoon of 20 people! I would love it, never been in one of those. As we always had to make do with that many or less. So, the idea of making do with less is the norm for me.
As for POWs, of course not, they belong in the rear on work farms or digging irrigation canals or similiar duties.
As for civilians, whose side are they on? What intel will they provide to the enemy? And if they are in such desperate condition your equipment may disapear. Plus, they are amatuers who would more than likely get in the way and thus be more trouble than they are worth.
Ah, women! Yes fill the ranks with women. Who are also AMATUERS having just the basic knowledge. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous. And some may have rank, which will cause attituides as well. As I told the new batches of barracks types when they hit my unit, "just cause you got rank don't mean you know know what you're doing."
If its a SWAT type operation, or they are fighting from the safety or the coverage of APCs where carrying your gear over rough group and hauling lots of mission essential equipment and marching is not involved, nor manuvering with the heavier components of weapons systems, and digging in, and engaging in hand to hand or bayonet fighting and really heavy tasks are not expected to happen then it is possible.
IF it is traditional infantyr operations hauling heavy loads on foot over rough terrain in short amounts of time, then NO! They become a liability.
They WILL become injured, they will become exhausted and fall out, and that will demoralize the rest of the unit, once you start getting stragglers, it only takes one then they start. And if you have to spread load the gear well say the of the 15 3 drop. You have lost what percentage of your force? But, they are hauling mission essential equipment. So, now, that mission essential gear needs to be spread loaded among the remaining folks. It is further demoralizing to tell your people, "well I know you are tired, but we lost X, and now you have to haul their gear too."
How much time will be lost when some women straggle? How much more time will be lost when you have to stop to let them catch up, or let deal with them when they drop? When you have to spreadload their mission essential gear? So, the pace has to get even faster and you forget rest stops to make up the lost time. Now, the troops are overloaded and pushed harder than they should which now opens them up to greater injury. Not t mention getting to their LOD fatigued which now endangers the missions success.
Sorry, but I have seen only on rare exception durring long marches or PT runs where 90% of the women in the coed units hung tough, most ended up in the rear with those straggling.
I mean its interesting and cool to preach equality and all but some things are impossible. I again refer to my good freind, she claims 5-2 and maybe on a good day she is. Going for OCs but she couldn't hang even in Basic ending up with stress fractures of her leg and both sides of her plevis broken not from taumatic injury, but from her WILL to keep going and keep up with the others, so her own body structure was against her and her own muscles broke her bones.
As I said, if you can GUARATEE you will not haul heavy loads, at a fast pace, you will have vehicles to move you and gear, you will not have to engage in hand to hand then sure, go for it! But in battle, there are no guatantees.
If I were the comander I would want to maximuimize my chances for success. Which calls for limiting my liabilities.
As I explained in an English course years ago when this topic came up.
a class mate said "Well I was in the Air Force, women can do everything a man can." And she made the same argument.
I was a Marine infantryman which shut her down, who has the better knowledge of infantry/combat arms life?
Her view and experience was cool, but it was also skewed as she had no clue. It ain't about living in a pup tent and going on long walks, or calmly shooting like on the range. It is pain, hardship and more pain. And most of the pain is often caused by hauling heavy loads under all manner of nasty conditions and being utterly exhaused before you even reach the target.
They call it "the grunts" for a reason, it involved ALOT of grunt work that is little more than heard physical effort.
Like I said in that English class,
"If you are a caveman in group A and the cave people in group B are sending Gronk to fight you, kill your men and take you women and take all of your food for winter. Are you going to sent out a woman, or the biggest, badest meanest caveman you have to ensure you win. Because in the end, your life does depend on it."
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Law0369 09-04-2008, 02:34 PM I'm the Biggest Baddest Cave man hang. And you know were i come from my group of cave men are tough. I second all of your statements with 16 years of operation experiance as a grunt in 3 wars and 46 countrys later. women only hurt a grunt unit. trust men if you have to ask why then you will never know cause you have never been there. send all the tough girls to fight me ...6ft 5 about 240 pounds of Marine corps martial arts instructor. see what happens to them. Iam the guy your parents warned you about. but I'm your guys guy. I protect you and love it. Paul is my here for being in the fight when i was still jerking off to the sear catolog and Chico,Hang,flmingo,raidar and all the rest of the warriors on here that came before me. I just try to live up to your standards. Thanks guy's; getting alot more crazy as a get ready to go back and locks horns so read my rants with caution.
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copeab 09-04-2008, 03:00 PM I platoon of 20 people! I would love it, never been in one of those. As we always had to make do with that many or less. So, the idea of making do with less is the norm for me.
So you'd rather be understrength. Interesting.
IF it is traditional infantyr operations hauling heavy loads on foot over rough terrain in short amounts of time, then NO! They become a liability.
I doubt there are many "traditional infantry operations" going on in Poland in the summer of 2000. Less "army on the move" and more "refugees on the run" IMHO.
How much time will be lost when some women straggle? How much more time will be lost when you have to stop to let them catch up, or let deal with them when they drop? When you have to spreadload their mission essential gear? So, the pace has to get even faster and you forget rest stops to make up the lost time. Now, the troops are overloaded and pushed harder than they should which now opens them up to greater injury. Not t mention getting to their LOD fatigued which now endangers the missions success.
Frankly, if thravel was that fast, after the first session no US troops would be left in Poland. I think you are severely overestimating how often heavily laden troops have to move a long distance quicky in T2K. Or else we have radically differing views of the setting.
As I said, if you can GUARATEE you will not haul heavy loads, at a fast pace, you will have vehicles to move you and gear, you will not have to engage in hand to hand then sure, go for it! But in battle, there are no guatantees.
Given that mountains are not littered with the skeletons of female hikers, I think you are overstating the problem. I guess it's important to note that I see an average PC in T2K carrying a much lighter load than normal, if only because of the scarcity of ammo and dropping items that have ceased to work and can't be repaired.
Brandon
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Hangfire7 09-04-2008, 03:01 PM I'm the Biggest Baddest Cave man hang. And you know were i come from my group of cave men are tough. I second all of your statements with 16 years of operation experiance as a grunt in 3 wars and 46 countrys later. women only hurt a grunt unit. trust men if you have to ask why then you will never know cause you have never been there. send all the tough girls to fight me ...6ft 5 about 240 pounds of Marine corps martial arts instructor. see what happens to them. Iam the guy your parents warned you about. but I'm your guys guy. I protect you and love it. Paul is my here for being in the fight when i was still jerking off to the sear catolog and Chico,Hang,flmingo,raidar and all the rest of the warriors on here that came before me. I just try to live up to your standards. Thanks guy's; getting alot more crazy as a get ready to go back and locks horns so read my rants with caution.
Well, I had to dumb it down for the class and be a bit comical and PC. I actualy forgot the name of the other caveman who was to fight gronk. Of course Ms AF Chick still wasn't convinced nor was a lil girlie whose boyfreind was going through Boot Camp right then lol.
Hey you're still growing, you told me you were 6-4 a couple years ago. I guess you're drinking your milk
As for other info on the topic,
I ask again,
What is the median age of those in the military? Most first termers which also make up the bulk of the lower enlisted ranks are between 17 and what, 23? Nothing but a bundle of hormones in skin! As I said, heaven help anyone who is supposed to be in charge of them in a coed unit.
And then the whole equality and petty jealously issue. Women are CATY with other women and manipulative with men. That is a nightmare.
And again what about the cost? What can one do with the extra cost used to bring a woman up to the speed of an average man? What is the same assets were used on an average man who is able to meet the requirements without special training? You now have now elevated what is a average to an elete, rather than with the woman you would elevate a below average to an average.
Again in a perfect world where everything goes as planned, then sure lets have full and total equality. But, then again in a perfect world I'd be married to a rich hot blond who owns a liquor store! And now we all know why John McCain is my hero! He is living the dream
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Law0369 09-04-2008, 04:27 PM Come on Man 77 in since day one in boot camp. my feet have gotten wider with time went from 10.5 reg in boot camp to 11 wide.
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copeab 09-04-2008, 05:03 PM And again what about the cost? What can one do with the extra cost used to bring a woman up to the speed of an average man? What is the same assets were used on an average man who is able to meet the requirements without special training? You now have now elevated what is a average to an elete, rather than with the woman you would elevate a below average to an average.
Let's consider a not unlikely hypothetical situation. Summer 2000, Poland. The party (made up of soldiers from different NATO units) is holed up in a old stone farmhouse. Tour last radio contact with higher command ended with the "you are on your own" message. Food and ammo are low, but not desperately so. The party decides to stay put for the time being.
A day later, a group of women come into view. They are all wearing US Army uniforms and carrying military gear. After talking ot them, you discover theyy are all that is left of regimental HQ (all the men were pulled out to replace combat losses in combat units). They are not especially well equipped, but no worse off than the party. They have enough food and ammo so they wouldn't use op your meager supplies. What do you do?
It sounds like some of you would demand they keep on going and not stop. Some of you might take their equipment at gunpoint (a cold but logical extension of them being liabilities, so why waste gear on them you could put to better use). Seems like few of you would give them a corner of the farmhouse.
Brandon
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pmulcahy 09-04-2008, 05:19 PM Come on Man 77 in since day one in boot camp. my feet have gotten wider with time went from 10.5 reg in boot camp to 11 wide.
I thought I had topped out at 5'7" -- until I went to Basic. I've been 5'8" ever since. And they put 30 pounds on me, but my waist got 2 inches smaller.
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Hangfire7 09-04-2008, 05:34 PM Come on Man 77 in since day one in boot camp. my feet have gotten wider with time went from 10.5 reg in boot camp to 11 wide.
Then my memory is going, which isn't really a bad thing, oh to forget the X, the bad knees and a plethora of other things. Then I really would live in a perfect world.
As for the feet getting bigger! Amen brother, I went from a 11.5 WIDE to a 12 ultimately to a 13. But, then maybe the larger boot size is a natural adaption to go with the rank since as one does gain responsibility they tend to have to put the motivational boot up peoples backsides.
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Mohoender 09-04-2008, 05:36 PM Hang
Who is talking about equality here. I might be wrong but I haven't been the only one to talk about women being snipers and being more efficient than men. Still, they will do fine in tanks. By the way, in twilight, I'll rather choose to ride an old T-54/M-48 than a Leclerc or an Abrams (these will need way to much work if you want to keep them combat worthy)
Lets talk about efficiency, then. If you put a women in the right combat position she will do as well. It didn't seem to me that those defending women integration were thinking about making them a Marine and a specialist in close combat. Ok, for the infantry stuff and as I have been in the air force I obviously don't know. But in the air force we are thinking about infantry as being meatballs anyway. Just kidding :beer: .
Whatever, as some pointed out in a twilight setting, you won't have technology to help you out and you might not have that much to carry anyway. In this case a women sniper could well be able to wipe out an entire Marines platoon even before anyone in it knows it's happening. Don't forget your night vision is not working, you have no satellite, no heavy vehicle, no artillery and definitely no air force to save your buts or drop bombs at your head (the only thing you can count on will be your weapons and some binoculars if you get some old ones). Sure she will not stand in hand to hand combat, the only problem is that you will not get hand to hand. If you have a doubt about that ask the German infantry officers at Stalingrad (Oops that won't be possible they were all killed). Funny the Soviets were using women snipers firing .50 AT rifles and old stile bolt action rilfes
According to my cousin who have lived in about 40 African countries and through 35 wars (third world wars being very close to what you would find in twilight). Regular infantry with full gears is definitely not the best way to get the job done when you lack all the technological toys and all the proper backup.
I'm convinced when you said that when women are becoming casualties this is shaking the group. I have no doubt about that but it only means that most men cannot take it (Personnaly I wouldn't care and that's why they shouldn't be allowed to have love affairs, to put it kindly). In that case men are the problem. Sorry but if you have a woman wearing a uniform she is not a woman anymore (as you are not a man, sex is irrelevant, that's why uniforms were made).
A few last things, I'm a man and my knees told me to get lost when some corporal tried to have me participate in parades (I don't know the name for that kind of walking). The day after I did a 20 miles walk back to the base and refused to get in the ambulance (only a problem of willpower but that is a family tradition : if you accept to do a job just do it). My mother (a 50kg woman) lost one liter of blood in a car accident, entered the hospital walking and endured a 4 hours surgery with no anesthetic. She is also a very good shot, she is driving like no one and I'm not talking of open road, she handles a bulldozer with ease, she can ride a horse for days (she loves vicious ones), she can walk as well and she perfectly knows several ways to kill you with a knife (but she will agree on one thing, it is ridiculous to have women making guards). Having them in a Marines platoon might well be a waste (except for a few exception) but not having them at all might be a bigger waste. Anyway again, in a twilight setting, you'll have plenty of them. Especially in the US Army as it seems you would have waited long to put them in frontline (actually with your way of thinking a regular US platoon in 2000 should be 1/3 men, 2/3 women
). Praise heaven life will have provided them with more than enough training
.
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Matt Wiser 09-04-2008, 05:57 PM In a T2K situation, you'll have no choice. There's going to be men who, by experience, are going to be kept in their original MOS, and where are you going to get the warm bodies to fill slots? POWs? They belong on a labor detail in the rear. Civilians? Big questions of loyalty there. Like it or not, a lot of the grunts in the T2K Army are going to be female. By necessity. Ditto for the other previously "male-only" jobs-armor and FA. Besides, there are already women serving in infantry units in both Iraq and Afghanistan right now, but they're not infantry by MOS. They accompany the unit to search local women and children, and they often find things that the guys in the unit might overlook. Not to mention that the local women talk to the female soldiers, and do tell said "GI Jane" what they know about what's going on in the area. The female medic in the 82nd Airborne who won a Silver Star for her actions in Afghanistan wasn't with that infantry company as a medic; she was there for search duty. But when the IED went off and the lead started flying, she reacted the way she was trained. And there's several guys alive as a result of her actions under fire. The Company CO, according to the Houston Chronicle (she's from the Houston area) wanted a DSC awarded to her, but it got downgraded to a Silver Star.
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Hangfire7 09-04-2008, 06:12 PM Comments are in blue:
So you'd rather be understrength. Interesting.
Yes, again using the liability issue, yes. A team is a team through cohesion. Ever have a team member that you could operate so well you didn't have to communicate, it was almost like you had telepathy? A coed unit, would blow that away. Try getting up close and personal with a woman? Any snipers or machinegunners out there? How often does an A-gunner or spotter get right on the gunner? A night time patrol? Getting chest to chest and in the persons face or ear to lip the words? That could be called sexual harassment.
How do you decide on who is in what hole?
How well can a woman hump a 60 or an M240 which I hear is a bit heavier? And the ammo and T&E and regular kit? What do you do if she can't hang? Sorry guys, you gotta hump Janeys shit because she can't hang. I mean alot of men can't hang too, but they get punked out and I have tied 550 cord to more than one guy and yanked him along like a dog on a leash. Tell me a peron going into a hot zone like that is not a liability?
Now try that stuff on low water and half rations for the long term. <Like a Twilight scenario?>
I doubt there are many "traditional infantry operations" going on in Poland in the summer of 2000. Less "army on the move" and more "refugees on the run" IMHO.
So, which is it. I was talking real world, you if I am not correct keep bouncing back from real world, to T2K. One is fantasy, the other real. But I shall do my best to cover all bases.
Traditional infantry operations will not go away. In my view they will increase. There will be more use of them. More raw force and power, more grunt work, and less machines that were used to equal the player field for women.
As for traditional infantry work, I am talking patrolling, infiltration, moving long distances on foot carrying everything on your back. And in the T2K world, ammo will be more scarce, so I would think the bayonet and combat knife will be more than a MRE opener as they have been for the last few years.
And with less HQ and supply chains troops will no longer be able to stage their belongings. They will have to hump everything they own, all of their support items and supplies.
And we are for the most part mechanized today, and in the game how many groups have vehicles? Most seem to have a humvee or even more. Would they really have them in T2K?
Without vehicles to haul your kit, you will have to move a