Weapons in the uk - in a t2k scenario

[headquarters]

I thought of this topic and wanted to ask the board memebers what are their thoughts. If we already did discuss and I forgot - sorry. (I did search the threads though).

As I understand there are about zero firearms owned legally in Great Britain with the exception of a small amount of shotguns and hunting rifles registered by hunters. Police and military/TA armouries are few and not very large.

As I understand it sports/competition arms are kept under lock and key by the various clubs and are restricted to a few types of precision rifles etc.

What is the actual density of fireams in the UK?

What would happen in the event of a T2K scenario in terms of the populace arming themselves?

Would you have a melee based campaign setting - more or less??

I only ask relevant to the game.. Please give me your opinions.

[simonmark6]

I'm happy to try and answer this, but I hope it doesn't collapse into an argument about UK gun laws. I know that wasn't the intent of the post so:

In 2007, England and Wales had 3,400,000 registered firearms. All of these would be shotguns and rifles, mostly in private ownership. Numbers for Scotland were 240,000 and Northern Ireland, 380,000. Average number of guns per 100 people would be about 6.

This was 2007, in a TW2K environment there would be more guns although semi-automatic guns with magazines would already be gone after the Michael Ryan massacre. The Lockerbie massacre happened in 1996 and led to legislation to ban handguns. The ban and collection of weapons didn't really start until 1997 however so it might not have been as successful in a TW2K world and, indeed, it may not have gone through in a world with escalating threats of violence.

In general, you can have five shotguns on a shotgun licence as long as they have a capacity of three rounds. Larger capacities go on your rifle licence. All rifles will generally be bolt action or low capacity semi-automatic and pump-action in no greater than .22 calibre although pistol calibre lever action guns are also present. Bolt action and lever action can be of most calibres and magazine capacity is not limited. Semi-auto rifles of larger calibres can be used but have to be converted to single shot so that the action must be manually cycled every shot (making them awkward bolt actions)

Gun clubs usually have small calibre target rifles of .177 and .22 calibre. Usually.

Another place you could get limited firearms would be a Cadet hut: many big guns were pulled in after the IRA started raiding them for weapons so most would be air rifles or .22 with the odd Lee Enfield or single shot SA 80.

Looking at a TW2K scenario, guns could be relatively commonplace: the population has reduced from 60 million to about ten so they could be very common, as much as 1 in 10 or less to really rare, it depends on how many were lost or damaged in the chaos.

I'd guess that lots of guns were cherished over human lives in the chaos and that there would be a lot more guns per 100 survivors than there are now. Most will be double barrelled shotguns and .22 rifles but there will be enough other guns to make things dangerous.

Ammunition is another issue: I doubt there'd be a lot of bullets left unless there was a local reloading industry. If I remember rightly, you can't keep more than a hundred rounds of any calibre.

Hope this helps.

[Rainbow Six]

OK, looking at this purely from a T2k point of view (I have absolutely no interest in getting into a debate / discussion about UK gun laws) it is a subject that I have tried to account for when working on my Alternative SGUK, particularly for the larger marauder groups.…I have no idea of any sort of statistics as to gun ownership (Edit - thanks simonmark6 for detailing that), however it is unquestionable that private gun ownership is much more restricted / controlled in the UK than it is in some other countries, although the situation in T2K (V1 or V2) might slightly different than it is in real life…a bit of history…in my opinion (others may differ) the policy on private ownership of weapons was heavily influenced by two events – the August 1987 Hungerford shootings, which led to the 1988 Firearms Amendment Act, which banned the ownership of semi automatic and pump action weapons and the March 1996 Dunblane shootings, which led to the 1997 Firearms Amendment Act. It was this Act and its subsequent Amendment that effectively outlawed the private possession of handguns ( said I had no interest in getting into a discussion but as part of the context of the history, the Dunblane shootings took place in a school in Scotland and created a shockwave that went through the country. I still have vivid memories of that day (I lived about twenty miles away from Dunblane) - a person whose name I can still remember without looking it up (I wont repeat it here) went into a primary (elementary) school and shot dead sixteen children and a teacher (whose name I can also remember).

You’ll see from the dates that the 1988 Act would have undoubtedly been in place in the T2K timeline but the 1997 Act is much more debatable – would the shootings have still taken place? Maybe. The War would have started by 1997 so would the Government reaction have been the same? Unknown. Even if it had been, I think the dates are such that there may have been more handguns present in private ownership than there were / are IRL.

In general though, even if you don’t have the 1997 Act in place, options for arming the general populace are going to be much, much more limited than they are in other countries. Civilian weapons would be available in small numbers – I haven’t been for some years but well after the turn of the Millenium I used to go clay pigeon shooting at a place that had several dozen (at least) double barrelled shotguns and ammunition to go with them…enough to arm a decent force…there is a gunshop close to where I live, another close to my parents house – my father buys lead shot from that one to use as nose weight for model aircraft…so I think there would be some civilian weapons…just not significant quantities (certainly not in single locations) and not military type (assault rifles, etc). There will also be weapons that are already in criminal hands as there is in real life.

There may also be a number of military and police issue firearms that might fall into the wrong hands for a number of reasons – troops turning marauder is probably the most obvious (and would probably be the most potent type of marauder group), but there could also be corrupt suppy types selling them, weapons being “lost” in the general chaos and confusion following the nuclear exchanges. In some circumstances it wouldn’t take much to make a marauder group a significant local power…finding an abandoned truck that has twenty SA80’s and several thousand rounds of ammo would probably be more than enough in some cases. You’d probably also see much more armed police as well, whilst there may have been an expansion of the Home Service Force which may have seen the issuance of more military weapons at a more local level (the HSF was essentially a form of Home Guard which was limited in size and eventually phased out totally at the end of the Cold War). Obviously both the police and the military may be overrun by the mobs in some places, losing their weapons in the process. In some areas you could possibly add small numbers of US weapons to the mix sourced from the USAF bases in England (although I think it’s highly unlikely you are going to find groups armed with large numbers of M16’s and M60’s).

A trope I’ve used in my own Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the UK has been French DGSE agents supplying weapons to marauders and separatist groups to try and keep the UK destabilised on the basis that the longer the UK remains in chaos the greater the chance France has to emerge from the War as the dominant power in Europe. After the nuclear exchanges I could see impromptu militia forces being raised…if they wanted to the Government could probably arm them with weapons taken from storage…L1A1’s, maybe even Lee Enfields (the way Milgov issued M16EZ’s to groups in the US). I’ve also used the idea of HMG unwittingly arming a marauder group after being duped into thinking they were a legitimate group.

I do think though that guns will be the exception for many groups. What you are likely to see is the rank and file armed with melee weapons, knives, sometimes taped to a broom handle, baseball bats, improvised weapons such as cricket bats, pool cues, and some firearms, probably carried by the leaders – maybe a couple of handguns, shotguns, and if they’re lucky one or two military or police issue weapons…an L1A1, a Sterling SMG or an MP5 SMG (MP5’s were, and in many cases still are, standard issue to most police firearms units). Expect ammunition to be in short supply. The larger, more organised groups, e.g. the one that did manage to find the truck with 20 SA80’s in the back, will have the potential to be significant local players as I mentioned above, whilst larger groups, if they can arm themselves sufficiently, can become regional powers.

[Bullet Magnet]

Since the Dunblane thing you mentioned was in 1996, it's possible the asswipe that did it could have been called into service (I have no idea on the UK's policy on the draft) and sent over to the continent. The whole thing might have not happened. I guess it depends somewhat on when in 1996 it happened.

[Brother in Arms]

Im pretty certain that No.4 Enfield, STEN, BREN, PIAT would all rise for the grave and rear there ugly head like the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse. Im also guessing more than a couple M27A1 Thompson and MP-40's could show up as well.

From what I have heard from some residents of the South Boston Area apparently the STEN was common in Norther Ireland. Of course the AKM, G3A3, Coveted AR-18 show up there as well, But I doubt they would be just handing them out

A UK ex pat told me he had several firearms that he took to Scotland in the early 80's and he had a hunting rifle made from a Model 1917 Enfield but re chambered from .30-06 to 7.62NATO, restocked bedded and mounting a German scope.

This makes me want to watch the original T.V. show SURVIVORS!

[Brother in Arms]

I was thinking about how grenade Grenade launchers were relatively rare in UK in the 1980's. It would be really cool to work in some old flare/gas grenade launchers maybe with home made munitions??


No.1 Mark 1 flare, tear gas gun:

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/dalbert/M...yFedLabs-2.JPG

1.5" Federal Gas Riot gun:

http://www.sportsmansoutdoorsupersto.../used-firearms

Smith and Wesson 210/276:

http://www.icollector.com/Smith-Wess...-stoc_i8788333

One of these would be an interesting "ENIGMA" weapons to have in the game for to add a little color,flare, smoke and gas into a game.

Oh or how about a Martini Greener Light Harpoon Gun???? Those have always really got my creative juices going.
http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Greener_Light_Harpoon_Gun

Just some weird ideas about some old stuff that might turn up and or add some pin ache to the weapons that might be floating around.

[headquarters]

..and apologies for misspelling the UK in the heading last post.

I find the information useful and it certainly gives me something to think about if trying for a UK campaign becomes reality.

as the posters point out ( thanks guys!) several factors apply that could / could not have turned out differently, namely legislation and of course possible developments due to the global situation. The list of variables could probably be expanded on.

I add my own variables as well - non goverment organized groups could cranck out primitive full/semiauto guns with simple machinery and welding equipment to arm themselves - if ammo is available.

Same sort of groups could smuggle in guns from other countries/organizations and so on.

But in all I guess that running a scarce/na policy on all sorts of weapons and ammo would be the most plausible way to go in a UK campaign. If you so choose.

I guess you could always come up with developments that lead to heavy influx of illegal arms, uinintentional proliferation of legal arms and loss of control of goverment stockpiles and armouries coupled with said primitive weapons factories that increase the density of guns.

All input appreciated ! Have a good weekend

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Bullet Magnet

Since the Dunblane thing you mentioned was in 1996, it's possible the asswipe that did it could have been called into service (I have no idea on the UK's policy on the draft) and sent over to the continent. The whole thing might have not happened. I guess it depends somewhat on when in 1996 it happened.

The shooting happened in March 1996. I think it's highly unlikely that the perpetrator would be conscripted before then. Even if the UK introduced conscription (there has been none for decades) he was 43 at the time so unlikely anyone that old would be being conscripted before the UK had even entered the War. If the shooting didn't take place in the T2k timeline I suppose he might have ended up in a home defence group after November 1997 (assuming he survived of course).

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

From what I have heard from some residents of the South Boston Area apparently the STEN was common in Norther Ireland. Of course the AKM, G3A3, Coveted AR-18 show up there as well, But I doubt they would be just handing them out

My earlier post referred only to the situation on the mainland - Scotland, England, and Wales. I should have clarified that. Northern Ireland would be a whole different matter - as you say all manner of weapons not readily available on the mainland would be present, but I think it would be unlikely they would find their way across to the mainland.

[.45cultist]

Plain ole smuggling, especially as authority fades away by both criminals and opponants. Stens can be made anywhere, one could cobble an arms presence, adjust the prices to reflect rarity.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind you may see a lot of interesting older weapons as well coming out of museum collections and the like - even down to melee weapons like swords, maces, etc..

and while they may sound like not that big a deal I would hate to be taking on a guy who knows how to handle a battleaxe or longsword or longbow or several guys like that if all I had was a gun with very limited ammunition capacity

[Badbru]

I generally ran a less world destroyed environment for my T2K back in the day, atleast as applied to France, Portugal, and Spain who stayed out of the war. I had the Duchy of Cornwall obtaining OLD stored weapons from Portugal and Spain. Mostly those nations stockpiled Mauser service rifles but also some G3 & CETME weapons. As global boat trips go it's a short one from southern England to the Ibirian peninsular. The more important trade was in ammunition. HM Govt and also places like the duchy of Cornwall also started producing Sten guns again or very similar copies.

[Apache6]

I'd expect that the UK Government, and/or their opponents would start turning out STEN guns or some other variant of easily produced blowback SMG in armories or converted machine shops. The machinists skills are there, the plans are there and requirements is remarkably low.

I like the idea that they design a simple 9mm blowback SMG which visibly resembles the SA-80, a bull-pup configuration with an optic sight. Weapon stats would be identical to the STEN, just in a fancy package. It would be more than sufficient to give Police and Territorial Reserves a edge over most threats.

[Apache6]

Might not be the best idea, but when I think of weapons in England I think Longbows.

I know that there a small group, but there is are 'hobbyists' who still practice with the Longbow. A single good archer, firing from concealment could be a nasty surprise for an unwary enemy. Very hard to detect due to lack of report.

Alternatively, a town militia with no firearms beyond a few double barrel shotguns might arm themselves with longbows, encouraged and trained by the mayor who is one of the before mentioned hobbyists. Not the best weapons, but better then a spear/pike/halbard.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Apache6

I'd expect that the UK Government, and/or their opponents would start turning out STEN guns or some other variant of easily produced blowback SMG in armories or converted machine shops.

Given the production run of the Sterling submachine gun and the huge stockplie the british army has in 1994. I would see them being issued and put back into small scale production. I don't think there is much diffrent design in the mech? could be wrong.

[Olefin]

Actually crossbows may also be something you may see in England more than longbows. Maybe the English members of the board can provide light on if the English longbow would still be something you would see with any frequency or if it would be very rare due to the skill set needed for it being lacking in general?

In my first campaign we had a character who was a full blooded Apache and he used his bow to deadly effect - especially in several ambush situations. We ran into a town militia that had a squad of archers who originally were members of an archery club as well who took out several marauders when the town was attacked when we were there.

[simonmark6]

I would be doubtful about longbows. The wood needs to be selected by a specialist and left to cure for a few years. In addition, they are difficult to make with maybe only 30 bowyers left in the country and hellish hard to use. English (often, but not the majority in any way, Welsh) longbowmen were professionals who had to practise for years to get the physique to fire the bow effectively.
Forensic studies of the bodies of bowmen that drowned on the Mary Rose revealed that the right sides of their bodies were massively muscled, almost to the point of deformity.
Add to that, the time it takes to get proficient with the weapon you can see why King Edward said, "If you want a good bowman, start with his grandfather."
Crossbows on the other hand are easier to use and simple to make even with basic gear (your first bow might not be very safe, but they get better). Loading is a problem but if you're in cover it's not such an issue plus it is feasible to create quick loading gear using modern kit even if it would probably be easier to just build more crossbows.
Unless you have a large stockpile of pre-cured yew and a skilled bowyer, longbows probably aren't on the menu and even then no one will be able to use them effectively for four to ten years.

[Brother in Arms]

BADBRU

Excellent point about the Iberian Pen, also Spain has an amazing history of gun making especially up north.The propensity of Ruby pistols from WW1 is just the Tip of the Iceberg.


If I had the joy of going to Spain to snatch up some weapons. There are several I would grab just just because they so hardcore.


ASTRA 903
Because what good is this world without Machine pistols!!!! Especially i you can attach a stock that is also a holster!!!!!!!!!!!!I know its 7.63 Mauser but you could be risky and shoot 7.62x25 Tokarev in it!!! ( it's Almost Identical cartridge, but its way more powerful!!!!!) Thankfully many where converted to 9x19mm(9mm luger) and some for 9mm LARGO (9x23) which can use COLT .38 super (but again its much more powerful)
http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/12/22/90/41/astra910.jpg


STAR Z62-Z63
These are such mean looking SMG's!!! the 63 in 9mm and the the 62 in the more powerful 9mm LARGO. Rarely seen other than in Spain (maybe Africa)
I have always wanted one of these guns. Looks like a cross between a Sterling and TEC-9.
http://www.star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/smg62/


Id probably go definitely for some The CETME Model C and maybe some old CETME Modelo B's for even a little more flair. (they look really tough with the sheet metal fore end) But they CETME is a really rugged Battle rifle! The sights are a not as good as the G3 But they are easy to use. Magazines are very sturdy and I can really see it as a Twilight 2000 firearm.

Modelo A
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/image...60/cetme_a.jpg

Model0 B
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/image.../cetme_b30.jpg

Modelo C
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/image...0/cetme_cs.jpg

And I get tons and tons of FR-8's nice lightweight Mauser converted to 7.62NATO be a great gun for men on horseback or bicycles, has a very solid wood stock and uses CETME bayonet for those moments when you got to beat or stab someone to death.

I can see Spanish guns on British Soil I rather like the idea of this. Could be used for a game in itself!!!

Brother in Arms

[Badbru]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

STAR Z62-Z63
These are such mean looking SMG's!!! the 63 in 9mm and the the 62 in the more powerful 9mm LARGO. Rarely seen other than in Spain (maybe Africa)
I have always wanted one of these guns. Looks like a cross between a Sterling and TEC-9.
http://www.star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/smg62/

BIA Thanks for reminding me about this one and the Z70B. Some of those would have made the cut. I remember really liking those way back when I was running T2K.

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

And I get tons and tons of FR-8's nice lightweight Mauser converted to 7.62NATO be a great gun for men on horseback or bicycles, has a very solid wood stock and uses CETME bayonet for those moments when you got to beat or stab someone to death.

I can see Spanish guns on British Soil I rather like the idea of this. Could be used for a game in itself!!!

Brother in Arms

I hadn't known that any had been modified for 7.62N but it makes sense.
The intention was to write up an entire senario just like a module where the players were a small team for HM Govt sent to recce the Duchy of Cornwall and end up discovering, tracing, and following the supply line of these weapons all the way back to Spain, or Portugal. The players would eventually be able to redirect this line to HM Govt, or anywhere within reason they chose, if they played it out right.

[CDAT]

So the FR-8 what was its original chambering? The only ones I have seen are ones here in the US that are 7.62 Nato.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by CDAT

So the FR-8 what was its original chambering? The only ones I have seen are ones here in the US that are 7.62 Nato.

This page gives a brief but informative description of the FR-7 and FR-8 plus it has a picture of each: -
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/repeating...r-7-fr--e.html

Basically, the FR-7 is a conversion of the Spanish Model 1916 rifle while the FR-8 is a conversion of the Spanish Model 1943 rifle. I believe the parent designs were both chambered for 7x57mm Mauser and when the FR-7 and FR-8 were first introduced they were both chambered for the 7.62x51mm CETME round

[dude_uk]

Sten's? PIAT'S? Longbows?! Have you all been at the gaffers special brew...?


Right UK weapons. First off the Armed Forces.

Pistols:

Browning L9A1
The Standard up until only recently (Was a SIG, now the Glock 17) this is the pistol of the British armed forces. Expect this mainly to be issued to Officers and military police. Pistols being introduced to the rank and file is a new thing. I have no idea of the amount ordered. But I expect there to be new batch ordered from Canada or Browning USA. Soldier/Sailor/Airman has a pistol? Its this.

Walther PPK.
Issued to undercovers and off duty Intelligence types.

Sig Sauer?
"THEM" switched to this pistol at some point prior to 9/11. When exactly, I can't be sure.

Rifles:
SA80
This is the standard rifle 5.56 of the HM Armed forces. 300,000 were ordered in the first batch. There would be a second batch ordered in the mid nineties and possibly continue throughout the war. More on that later...

A1? A2? A3?? The version that is issued to ground troops in Eastern Europe is undoubtedly the latest model. But expect earlier versions to crop up in the UK.

L1A1.
Heres a fun one... If anyone has an exact amount of how many of these were made I would generally like to know!

In our timeline, the many hundreds of thousands of these weapons were sold off en-mass to various third world countries with the end of the cold war.

Now in Twilight 2000 does this still happen? Or does the UK retain these?

If they do. Expect this weapon EVERYWHERE in the UK. Militia/Home defence unit? This. Marauders? This. These would probably be dispatched to various caches for police and Home defence military units use and would undoubtedly fall into the hands of various types. Crates would also fall off the backs of lorries...

Ammo? HA! Good luck.

Colt M16
Used by special forces and was for a while issued to Northern Ireland based
infantry units. About 10,000 were ordered, mostly M16A1's. What happened to these weapons is a mystery.

Accuracy International L96A1 Sniper rifle.
The standard 90's sniper rifle. Occasional in continental and foreign based UK units. VERY rare in UK ones.

Remington 870 Shotgun
RARE. But around...

Submachine guns

MP5
Used by special forces and military police units. I would expect quite a few examples of this.

Sterling L2A3
See L1A1. Here, there and everywhere! 9mm.

Machine guns.

L7A2 GPMG
The highly prized 'battle winning' MG is going to be going to be found where British units are.
Variants:
L8A1: Coaxial for Chieftain
L8A2: Coaxial for Challenger
L20A1: Used in Helicopter gun pods
L37A1: Turrented FV432 APC
L37A2: Cupola used on challenger and probably FV432
L43A1: Scorpion mounted.

L4A4 LMG

A modified 7.62mm 'Bren' this weapons was issued as an LMG to support units who did not require GPMG. I have no idea of the amount made. But see L1A1.

Browning M2 .50 (L1A1)

Not a typo. The designation was the same! This was brought back to british units for use at checkpoints and AA duties.

Anti-tank.

M72 LAW (L1A3B1)
Cheap bunker and light vehicles buster. If the US is still using this, The UK would too. (How heavy is this for those who carried it?)

LAW 80
The replacement for the LAW 66 and the Carl Gustav. One shot disposable weapon. I doubt it making an appearance in the UK.

Carl Gustav L14A1
THIS would be the older anti tank weapon brought back for UK service.

Milan Anti-tank.

Police


Pistols.
Browning

Glock
The police began to use the glock at some point in the 90's. Again I cannot be sure.

Smith and wesson .38?
Issued to police and special branch. I have no idea when phased out.

Submachine gun

MP5
Semi-Auto only. British Police are NOT allowed full auto weapons.

Rifles.
G3 7.62mm

L1A1 7.62mm

Heckler & Koch HK33

There appears to be a Remington sniper rifle used. What one I do not know.

Sources of weapons.

The usual Military bases and munitions dumps, Police stations and ad-hoc places required by HM government.

Weapons manufacturers.

Contrary to popular belief small arms production in the UK was not entirely extinguished. A Third World War would probably given it boost of adrenaline.


Royal Ordnance (Owned by BAE)

The manufacture of the SA80 was completed in Royal Ordnance's Nottingham Small Arms Facility by 1994. I expect this facility to make it to WW3. However that probably wouldn't be enough to produce the many thousands of rifles...

Other facilities would have been setup. Where? When? What size? I leave to you! This gives gamers a chance to introduce all their favourite weapons systems and no doubt examples are around for testing/comparison.

Royal Ordnance Factory Leeds.
Owned by the 1990's by Vickers Defence Systems.

BAE bought Heckler and Koch in the 1990's. A UK factory?

Accuracy international. Portsmouth
Maker of the arctic warfare weapon.

Various other ones. I am not sure of a complete 1990s list.

Smaller firms.

Various 'over and under' and double barreled shotgun firms are/were knocking around. A good location for gamers.

I.E
"Pratt and sons". Trumpton, UK

Family owned Custom Shotgun manufacturer to the landed gentry since the 1880s. The firm has struggled in recent years. But has found steady sales abroad in the face of a shrinking home market. Pre-war it produced hundreds of various shotguns and rifles some to custom order.

Based on an industrial estate just outside of the small town of Trumpton. It employed 135 people and had recently upgraded its machinery. Following the nuclear exchange various weapons went missing. But some remain onsite in obscure places. Its machinery remains in place have been put into storage by the owners. Some raw materials onsite. But the machines require a generator.

[simonmark6]

Do this company employ the part time firemen Hugh Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble and Grub?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by dude_uk

Sig Sauer?
"THEM" switched to this pistol at some point prior to 9/11. When exactly, I can't be sure.

The late 1980s-early 1990s. I personally saw them in use with Brit SAS when a large contingent of "THEM" deployed to Australia for desert training prior to Gulf War 1. Of the few I was able to get my dirty paws on, they were all P226, I don't know if they had any others.

Originally Posted by dude_uk

Colt M16
Used by special forces and was for a while issued to Northern Ireland based
infantry units. About 10,000 were ordered, mostly M16A1's. What happened to these weapons is a mystery.

Brit SAS also used the XM-177E2 version of the CAR-15 in limited numbers.

Originally Posted by dude_uk

Accuracy International L96A1 Sniper rifle.
The standard 90's sniper rifle. Occasional in continental and foreign based UK units. VERY rare in UK ones.

This would have been the crossover period as there were still large numbers of the L42A1 in service in the early 1990s.
Plus there would also be some Parker-Hale M82 rifle. Possibly with EOD units and also in civilian police service, as I believe the military felt the M82 was a bit too finicky or not robust enough (or something of that nature) for army use. However the greatest number served as training rifles in the Cadet forces as the L81, all chambered for 7.62mm NATO but these are configured as civilian target rifles rather than proper sniping rifles.

Originally Posted by dude_uk

Machine guns.

L4A4 LMG
A modified 7.62mm 'Bren' this weapons was issued as an LMG to support units who did not require GPMG. I have no idea of the amount made. But see L1A1.

Not a huge number in existence as they were all conversions of .303 Brens (using the knowledge gained by Inglis of Canada from the manufacture of Nationalist Chinese contract Bren guns chambered for the 7.92x57mm Mauser round)

Originally Posted by dude_uk

Browning M2 .50 (L1A1)

There was also another Browning machinegun in use with British forces and it was found in large numbers due to the use as a co-ax on earlier tanks and for arming APCs. The L3, the British designation for the Browning M1919A4.
If you really want to mess with the PCs supply chain, these British Brownings could be the WW2 era Mk1 and Mk2 models that were chambered for .303

I believe that up to the 1980s the British also kept modest stocks of the Vickers Machine Gun as a potential support MG. the notion being that they would be chambered in 7.62mm NATO as the South Africans and Australians had done to some of their Vickers guns. I don't have any solid references to this but the Vickers was still used until March 1968 and if it was kept in war stores for the same 20-30 year period that Australia has, it's possible there would still be stocks of them in the 1990s.

Originally Posted by dude_uk

Anti-tank.

M72 LAW (L1A3B1)
Cheap bunker and light vehicles buster. If the US is still using this, The UK would too. (How heavy is this for those who carried it?)

2.5kg from memory but that's approximate because there's minor variation based on what model and who made it.

[CDAT]

The US Army started phasing out the LAW's in the mid late 1980's for the AT-4 I do know that some were taken to Desert Storm, but as far as I know that was really the last of them. Tell jumping to mid late 2000's the USMC started making a new updated LAW's.

[Brother in Arms]

Quite honestly there are lots of firearms in the UK just mostly out of the hands of civilians.

British 1919 in 7.62 NATO would probably be around, fairly common vehicles in the 70's and 80's, Ferret and Shorland Armored cars had them. (they were also in .30-06 and .303 as well at different periods of time)

I honestly don't know how common the SA-80 would really be I think a lot of things would be different with this rifle if the twilight war had happened.

That being said the Single shot or manually operated CADET model would be an interesting rifle to have appear in the game.

Id much rather carry an SLR than any SA-80..

and yes the SAS used the XM-177 and XM-177E1 but i haven't seen the E2 being used by them. They also used the HK G3A3, G3A4 and G3A3K

Enfield even made these HK type weapons!!!!

Also there is/was a bunker in Faldingworth with about 100,000+ Ak's (and load of other arms) in it but they wouldn't be there if the war in the Balkans hadn't ended. Might be a good place to have in a game.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

I honestly don't know how common the SA-80 would really be I think a lot of things would be different with this rifle if the twilight war had happened.

Probably would be quite common for the 2nd Edition timeline, I tend to agree with a few others in thinking that the product development would have been accelerated once war was looming on the horizon.

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

and yes the SAS used the XM-177 and XM-177E1 but i haven't seen the E2 being used by them.

Opps my mistake, I actually meant the E1 version. I'm going to blame the keyboard because I'm certainly not going to blame my lack of attention & clumsy, fat fingers!
The SAS also used the Ingram MAC10 before they switched to the MP5 series so that's another potential weapon for British Forces.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Brother in Arms

Id much rather carry an SLR than any SA-80.

Word.

[mpipes]

Does everyone think the UK troops would have tried to muddle through with the dreadful SA80? The upgrade program was just getting going in 1997, and with some 350,000 to repair, they were not getting far till much later.

In my pondering, I just don't think the SA80s would have been used long by front line troops. In its unimproved state, the gun is neither reliable or well liked, having at least 50 identified faults. The L1A1s could have been pulled out of storage, but they would have made getting in and out of a Warrior or helicopter a bit of a challenge. To be sure, a lot of L1A1 would be issued, but I'm not sure mechanized infantry would have liked lugging it around.

Personally, I think the bulk of the Brits in Germany would have ended up with former East German AK-74 variants converted to 5.56mm. The UK arms industry was not, in my opinion, in a state so as to be able to turn out an acceptable substitute in the numbers required, so the UK would have to have to get weapons from someplace. The Germans literally had tens of thousand AK variants sitting around, and no where near the manpower demands for all of them in 1996. The other alternative would be the US M-16A1 or A2 and its Canadian copy, but I believe most US manufacturing capacity would be directed to getting new US units armed.

Any thoughts?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

My thoughts on the SA80 family.

There were definitely problems with the L85A1 but they were not as dreadful as the media and the haters like to make out. A lot of the criticism was opinionated and ill-informed and regurgitated by people who had never been in the military or studied military firearms.
To quote Ian Hogg from the book "Military Small Arms of the 20th Century" published in 1990,
"…the first five years of this rifle's service have been disastrous. A number of manufacturing defects showed up in service conditions, and it was not until the closure of the RSAF at Enfield and the setting up of an entirely new production line, with new computer-controlled machine tools, at the new RSAF Nottingham, that the quality of the production weapons began to improve. It will take some time for the poor reputation gained by the initial issue weapons to be overcome; the only consolation is that the same sort of thing has happened to other military rifles in the past, and they have managed to live down their early reputation and prove their innate reliability. It is to be hoped that the L85A1 will do so as well."

The serious problems like the exposed magazine release and bad plastic for the furniture could be corrected easy enough. The reliability problems were largely caused by poor quality of materials and poor quality manufacture. As noted by Hogg, many of these issues were problems stemming from the first production line at RSAF Enfield. Once the production was switched to a new centre at Nottingham, some of the production quality issues cleared up but they still used low grade materials for much of the manufacture. These problems did not go away so easily and resulted in the rebuild programme in 2000 that lead to the L85A2.

Having had the opportunity to use the L85A1 over several days in early 1990, in my mind, the only significant long-term issues were it's inability to lose heat quickly when it was fired continuously and the weight compared to other 5.56mm rifles. Even the problem of the bolt group flying out the back during disassembly could be overcome by proper training in strip/assemble of the weapon.
All the other issues were a result of badly managed development/production, probably as a result of the desire to rush it into service as a British answer to the 5.56mm rifle (when it was originally meant to fire a 4.85mm round).

I personally believe that in the 2nd Edition timeline, with a potential war looming the product development would have been accelerated and these teething problem would have been corrected so the rifle could be issued to frontline troops. The rebuild programme of 2000 would have occurred much sooner because HM Government would not be cutting back on defence spending as they did in real life.

As for carrying the L1A1 and embussing or debussing a vehicle or helicopter, it's not really an issue, you learn how to carry your gear so it doesn't cause a problem. The squaddies you should really feel sorry for are the ones who had to carry the Charlie G or the Milan.
And as for mech infantry not liking carrying the L1A1, they did it in the past and in regards to the 2nd Ed. timeline it was the very recent past. Most of them would just be changing back to a rifle they had been carrying only a few years earlier when many of them were still carted around in the FV432.

[CDAT]

So a question, reading over this is L used like we here in the states us M or Mk? By that I guess I am asking is L1 and L2 totaly different weapons just L2 came out after L1, where L1A1 would be the updated version of the L1?