Killing Carriers

[JHart]

Do the Soviets attack the carriers with nukes all at once or as targets present themselves?

It will be hard to do all at once, but if they don't, if the go after one carrier with nukes, the word is out and if the US Navy is allowed to take the gloves off, then nuclear tipped Tomahawks start falling on soviet bomber bases, and nuclear tipped antiaircraft missiles go on the rails and come out of VLS tubes.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by JHart

Do the Soviets attack the carriers with nukes all at once or as targets present themselves?

It will be hard to do all at once, but if they don't, if the go after one carrier with nukes, the word is out and if the US Navy is allowed to take the gloves off, then nuclear tipped Tomahawks start falling on soviet bomber bases, and nuclear tipped antiaircraft missiles go on the rails and come out of VLS tubes.

Yes, it gets vicious pretty fast, doesn't it?

[chico20854]

The "Cliff Notes" draft version of the USN carrier force we've worked up with Matt Wiser:

CV-41 Midway: sustained damage in summer 1997, escorts were chasing down Sov raider/sub & Midway sunk by Sov SSN in Central Pacific.
CV-43 Coral Sea: operated in North Sea providing air support in Baltic, struck by Su-24 toss-bombed tac nuke 1997 & lost off Denmark.
CV-59 Forrestal: severely damaged by Soviet combined-arms strike in Vestfjord during Battle of Norwegian Sea December 96, burned out & abandoned in Bodo.
CV-60 Saratoga: participated in Norwegian Sea & Kola battles, damaged by Oscar July 97, nuked in drydock Philadelphia Nov 97.
CV-61 Ranger: Cam Ranh raid destroed air wing, served as Pacflt training carrier in 1997 (remnants of air wing to Lincoln), in port for liberty Thanksgiving 1997 when damaged by Tsunami in SF Bay induced by TDM strikes on north bay refineries, then caught in firestorm following strikes & burned out
CV-62 Independence: disabled and forced to anchor at Muscat, Oman. lost two props and a rudder from a Type-65 torpedo from an Sierra-class SSN, and was lucky to make it to port. One elevator is knocked out (by the AS-4 hit) and one rudder is jammed, along with a prop shaft blown out by the Type-65 torpedo (the ship's Nixie torpedo decoy worked-barely). Some internal flooding and shock damage as well. The ship was also damaged by BACKFIRE-launched AS-4 after anchoring and is not currently seaworthy, 18 months to repair...
CV-63 Kitty Hawk: anchored off Hilo (harbor to shallow to dock), no fuel.
CV-64 Constellation: homeported in Japan, sunk at 2nd Kamchakta.
CVN-65 Enterprise: participated in Battle of Norwegian Sea, damaged in Kola op, in Belfast.
CV-66 America: participated in ops vs Greece, Italy & Libya 1997, damaged in Op Carthaginian by Italian mines & subs, docked in Sigonella & abandoned when US withdrew from Sicily.
CV-67 John F. Kennedy: damaged by Soviet mine at outset of war in Western Med, repaired in Gibraltar in time for Carthaginian, operated in Med until arrived in Split, Croatia in mid 98 with minor mine damage (lost 1 shaft). Declared for Civgov with rest of forces in Jugoslavia.
CVN-68 Nimitz: damaged at 2nd Kamchachta, repaired at Bremerton, active there.
CVN-69 Dwight D. Eisenhower: Participated in Battle of Norwegian Sea & Kola op, holds Iceland 98-00, withdrawn to Little Creek, covers TF34 as part of Op Omega.
CVN-70 Carl Vinson: overwhelmed by Soviet ASMs from 200+ Backfires at outset of war while operating solo in Yellow Sea.
CVN-71 Theodore Roosevelt: participated in Battle of Norwegian Sea & Kola op, supports HM Govt in UK, withdrawn to Norfolk & NJ as part of Op Omega.
CVN-72 Abraham Lincoln: participated in Cam Ranh raid, damaged by 2 Soviet ASM, in Bremerton w/o port waist catapult, arrestor gear.
CVN-73 George Washington: overwhelmed by Soviet ASMs from 200+ Backfires during Battle of Norwegian Sea.
CVN-74 John C. Stennis: operates in both Battles of Kamchakta with reserve air wing, provides CAS in Korea and Japanese Kuriles op, occasionally patrols between Guam & Okinawa.
CVL-16 Lexington: hunted for raiders in Caribbean and central Atlantic, its aircraft located & tracked Kirov as tried to reach Cuba, suffered engineering casualty & put into repair yard in Mobile. Following TDM parts unavailable, aircraft & crew became part of local defense force under USMC leadership.
CVL-34 Oriskany: on workups off West Coast following reactivation in Long Beach with scratch airwing during TDM. Patrols area from San Francisco-Hawaii-Marquesas Islands (French Polynesia)-Galapagos Islands-Panama until runs out of fuel. In Panama.

edit: (CVN-75 Harry Truman is destroyed while still under construction in Newport News, Va when the Norfolk area is struck by a SS-24 during the TDM).

[JHart]

CV-61 Ranger: Cam Ranh raid destroyed air wing, served as Pacflt training carrier in 1997 (remnants of air wing to Lincoln), in port for liberty Thanksgiving 1997 when damaged by Tsunami in SF Bay induced by TDM strikes on north bay refineries, then caught in firestorm following strikes & burned out

I don't think a carrier would pull into port unless severely damaged, especially after the Soviets aren't afraid of slinging nukes.

CVN-75 Harry Truman is destroyed while still under construction in Newport News, Va when the Norfolk area is struck by a SS-24 during the TDM

The Truman was launched in 1996 as once the US gets its war on, she could easily be outfitted and ready to fight during the war


The Reagan could be destroyed in dock. Her keel was laid in 1998, but with the war, it could have been laid sooner. It is possible the Reagan could be launched before the TDM.

[jester]

The Midway was put into mothballs in 91/92 and turned into a museum without poweplant, propellers and steering in 99, most of its machinery would have been removed shortly after decomissioning.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by jester

The Midway was put into mothballs in 91/92 and turned into a museum without poweplant, propellers and steering in 99, most of its machinery would have been removed shortly after decomissioning.

This is a great example of potential V1 vs V2 differences. Given the Midway was still active for desert storm I could certainly see its continued operation if the cold war never ended.

[CDAT]

I know I am a little late to this party. Has anyone ever played the old (late 80 to early 90's) computer game Harpoon? I used to play it and from my understanding it was supposed to be very accurate as far as the military tech went. I never had satalite support for any of the games I played but with out them it came down to who saw who first. If the US saw the USSR first they launched there fighters and killed them 9 time out of 10. Same if the USSR saw the US first they launched a missile salvo that was so heavy that the US could not shoot them all down and lost several ships, the second or third would finish them off.

[bobcat]

honestly without going with canon i could envision multiple ways to eliminate a small fleet with one primary munition four guys and an IBS(or soviet equivalent)

granted especially if the fleet is underway it would be almost guaranteed at 100% casualties trying to sneak in and plant an ADM on the hull of a ship but it is doable and the doctrine is there on both sides. now assuming the coastguards port watchers are to be pressed into serving naval intelligence(likely right after the pentagon realizes they exist). planners would be able to accurately predict the approximate positions on a fleet. we did the same thing during the second world war and some NATO allies still maintain similar assets because they are so effective. this gives you the when and where, then use a fishing boat to move the team to the ORP where they deploy an inflatable boat to get to the CBG. as they enter the surveillance perimeter they can partially submerge the boat and using the waves and wash from escorts get right up on the carrier with their nuke or a butt load of conventional limpet mines. no need for large fleets to play when you only need a small team with the right training.

[Raellus]

I stumbled across this rather telling list whilst perusing Militaryphotos.net and lifted it, wholesale to share here. I've neglected to cross reference every incident listed here, since I'd already read/heard of several of them. I don't think that this list is necessarily exhaustive either. There are several more similar incidents mentioned in the source thread (read on for link).

-1981 NATO exercise Ocean Venture, an unnamed 1960s vintage Canadian diesel submarine “sank” the carrier USS America without once being itself detected, and a second unidentified vintage sub “sank” the carrier USS Forrestal.
- 1989 exercise Northern Star, Dutch diesel submarine Zwaardvis “sank” carrier USS America.
- RIMPAC 1996, Chilean diesel submarine Simpson “sank” carrier USS Independence.
- 1999 NATO exercise JTFEX/TMDI99 Dutch diesel submarine Walrus “sank” carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt, exercise command ship USS Mount Whitney, one cruiser, several destroyers and frigattes, and Los Angeles class nuclear fast attack submarine USS Boise.
- RIMPAC 2000, Australian Collins class diesel submarine “sank” two US fast attack submarines, and almost “sank” carrier USS Abraham Lincoln.
- 2001 Operation Tandem Thrust, HMAS Waller sank two US amphibious assault ships in water barely deeper than length of submarine itself, though it was later sank herself, and Chilean diesel sub took out Los Angeler class nuclear fast attack sub USS Montpelier twice during exercise runs.
- October 2002, HMAS Sheehan hunted down and “killed” Los Angeles class USS Olympia.
- September 2003, several Collins class submarines “sank” two US fast attack subs and a carrier.
- 2005, Swedish Gotland-class submarine “sank” USS Ronald Reagan.

Here's the thread from whence it came:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ead.php?244917

Food for thought, eh?

[Canadian Army]

-1981 NATO exercise Ocean Venture, an unnamed 1960s vintage Canadian diesel submarine “sank” the carrier USS America without once being itself detected, and a second unidentified vintage sub “sank” the carrier USS Forrestal.

The Submarine was one of three Oberon-class submarine the Canadian Navy operated at the time.

[RN7]

Was this not discussed on this thread..

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=4079

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by bobcat

honestly without going with canon i could envision multiple ways to eliminate a small fleet with one primary munition four guys and an IBS(or soviet equivalent)

granted especially if the fleet is underway it would be almost guaranteed at 100% casualties trying to sneak in and plant an ADM on the hull of a ship but it is doable and the doctrine is there on both sides. now assuming the coastguards port watchers are to be pressed into serving naval intelligence(likely right after the pentagon realizes they exist). planners would be able to accurately predict the approximate positions on a fleet. we did the same thing during the second world war and some NATO allies still maintain similar assets because they are so effective. this gives you the when and where, then use a fishing boat to move the team to the ORP where they deploy an inflatable boat to get to the CBG. as they enter the surveillance perimeter they can partially submerge the boat and using the waves and wash from escorts get right up on the carrier with their nuke or a butt load of conventional limpet mines. no need for large fleets to play when you only need a small team with the right training.

Under Soviet doctrine carriers were prime A #1 targets, getting attention from nuclear bombs dropped from helicopters to Backfires firing nuclear-tipped cruise missiles. Nuclear torpedoes, depth charges, and mines were all fair game. I can easily see a Spetsnaz team attaching an ADM to a carrier -- for E&E purposes, probably in port.

[Targan]

Another one I was reading just today:

http://rt.com/usa/238257-french-submarine-us-carrier/

[Silent Hunter UK]

Originally Posted by Targan

Another one I was reading just today:

http://rt.com/usa/238257-french-submarine-us-carrier/

It is generally the quieter diesel subs that are better at this sort of thing. Nukes, especially the earlier Soviet ones, could be very noisy due to the reactor; when an 'Alfa' powered up for the first time off Kola, SOSUS picked it up in Bermuda.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK

It is generally the quieter diesel subs that are better at this sort of thing. Nukes, especially the earlier Soviet ones, could be very noisy due to the reactor; when an 'Alfa' powered up for the first time off Kola, SOSUS picked it up in Bermuda.

Remember also that it is believed by some scientists that noise from nuclear subs are responsible for some whale and dolphin groundings -- they're being deafened.