US Air Force Locations

[kalos72]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And that right there is a MAJOR point some people seem to want to forget.
Reality has little place in T2K. It's a game and has the world set up in a certain way to make it an enjoyable and challenging game. It doesn't matter that the US had thousands of AFVs in the mid 90's, or a significant ability to produce and refine oil - there's been 5 years of warfare, including nukes, civil disruption, fighting on home soil on not one, but two fronts, and numerous other factors.
It doesn't really matter so much how the world got into the state it's in, but that it is in that state.

So in your game does the world die in 2000/2001? Cause if you follow HW to the letter like your implying everyone should, no one will be able to grow enough food to feed themselves in 2000/2001.

Germany UK France, etc will all survive with arguably more nuclear tonnage being dropped on them, but the US will die. MILGOV/CIVGOV will implode and the rest of the country falls into Morrow-esque type of world.

The FACT is no canon reference says "the MILGOV only had 10000 gallons of diesel", the writers kept it vague for many reasons. One, they didnt want to spend months doing the research and two to allow the players some room to grow and move around in the general outline they devised.

Who wants to play through a scenario that, regardless of what they do or how well they perform, their government still dies and the US is lost? Thats what HW does to the world IMHO...

[Olefin]

the math from HW and Kidnapped basically shows that drought as killing off the country - half is still alive - but there is only enough food that can be grown due to the drought to feed 1/4 of what is left - meaning 1/8th the pre-war population - so now you have a huge die off in a very short time among already weakened survivors combined with fighting for whats left ruining whats planted, widespread disease finishing off the survivors from millions of dead bodies rotting unburied because there wont be anyone left to bury them, etc. - meaning by years end most likely you are looking at 1/16th to 1/32nd the population still left alive maybe (in an optimistic projection)

That's not Twilight 2000 - that's Morrow or Aftermath

and yet somehow per 2300 the US reunites within 20 years of a catastrophe like that and gets back into space that same century?

that's why I go with the earlier modules - and stay with Twilight 2000 style gaming

[kato13]

I had a gaming group that was working with the 194th and the refinery.

Trying to figure out what to do with the myriad of refined products was an adventure (in research) in its own right.

There would be literally tons of asphalt and other slag elements similar to coal tar.

A huge majority of modern chemistry evolved out of finding uses for the "waste" products of coal and oil.

Just being able to produce items available in 1900 would be amazing. Aspirin, DDT, and several synthetic fertilizers fit that bill so they were given priority.

This campaign ended with out too many sessions (people went off to college), but I always considered it a interesting seed for those more on the rebuilding side of the spectrum of campaigns.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by kato13

I had a gaming group that was working with the 194th and the refinery.

Trying to figure out what to do with the myriad of refined products was an adventure (in research) in its own right.

There would be literally tons of asphalt and other slag elements similar to coal tar.

A huge majority of modern chemistry evolved out of finding uses for the "waste" products of coal and oil.

Just being able to produce items available in 1900 would be amazing. Aspirin, DDT, and several synthetic fertilizers fit that bill so they were given priority.

This campaign ended with out too many sessions (people went off to college), but I always considered it a interesting seed for those more on the rebuilding side of the spectrum of campaigns.

let alone all the fun involved in getting oil to the refinery - possibly setting up a barter system - so much oil delivered from wells you get X amount of trade goods or products from the refinery as pay

[kalos72]

I even tried to apply the 4th edition MP rules to the economy...haven't worked it all out yet.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

So in your game does the world die in 2000/2001? Cause if you follow HW to the letter like your implying everyone should, no one will be able to grow enough food to feed themselves in 2000/2001.

Of course not. The world in 2000/01 is on the ropes, a hairs breadth from the abyss but not gone yet. PCs actions can either give it that last shove, or help build something new and hopefully better. There's still a long way to fall though before it's hopeless, perhaps another 10-20% of the population to die world wide before stability and adaptation to the changed global conditions is reached.

HW deals with North America, specifically the US. This one small area is not the entire world. Other areas may have had their climate improved and wide scale migration to those areas will have to take place. Nobody can afford to presume what worked pre-war will work to keep them alive in the aftermath. HW actually states several areas are not absolutely cataclysmic. The Great Lakes region is still able to produce vast amounts of food, sufficient to help support the reduced population provided it can be distributed, or the people moved closer (and civil unrest kept under control). The Pacific North West is receiving torrential amounts of rainfall. It will take time to adapt to the climatic changes, but it's not the end of the world.

The Drought may not last more than a few short years - that's up to individual GMs to decide. The planet will heal itself, all the quicker given the drastically reduced pollution from humans.

[kalos72]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Of course not. The world in 2000/01 is on the ropes, a hairs breadth from the abyss but not gone yet. PCs actions can either give it that last shove, or help build something new and hopefully better. There's still a long way to fall though before it's hopeless, perhaps another 10-20% of the population to die world wide before stability and adaptation to the changed global conditions is reached.

HW deals with North America, specifically the US. This one small area is not the entire world. Other areas may have had their climate improved and wide scale migration to those areas will have to take place. Nobody can afford to presume what worked pre-war will work to keep them alive in the aftermath.

So again, Germany is fine, no climate changes cause nothing was ever said about it. But the US with less tonnage and less war effects, is sent into a solar oven?

And I think your going off canon with this 10-20% number...

But my reference was as it relates to the US, since HW only really deals with the US. And what exactly is a group of PC's going to do to save the US at this point? There is no food, no water and the government is dieing off...the scale is too far out of proportion here.

[Legbreaker]

Climatic changes are really only starting to be felt when the game shifts focus from Europe. There was no real need to detail what was going on there, but GMs are certainly free to apply similar upheavals.

PCs can't do anything about the climate, that's far beyond the scope of the game. Only massive civil engineering projects will help there (new dams, railroads and other similar infrastructure). They can however be very effective as "trouble shooters", such as in Kidnapped where they're tasked to essentially clear the way for the Civgov relocation. Another example is Satellite Down where their recovery of the weather data will give the authorities a massive assist in planning how to deal with the next few years.

Failure in their mission(s) would help tip the world (or at least the world as far as they're concerned) over the brink.

[Olefin]

HW basically kills the game in NA - I think its one reason they switched to back to Europe modules - its one thing to play the game per the NYC, Texas, Allegheny Uprising Modules - its another to try to play a campaign where 3/4 of the surviving population is set to starve in the next six months battling like animals over what is left of the food while what remains of the government and military completely collapse - even at its worst Poland is a lot better off than what HW paints for the US

as for areas still producing food - they would be inundated under hordes of starving refugees - it would be like fighting a zombie horde in The Walking Dead or World War Z - and since they have nothing to lose because there isn't any food I highly doubt by the time it was all said and done there would be anything left of civilization to rebuild given the drought as painted in HW and Kidnapped

if I want to play a campaign in that kind of situation I will stick to Fallout

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

even at its worst Poland is a lot better off than what HW paints for the US

Umm, not so. Look at Silesia and it's 97% casualty rate as per Black Madonna.
The rest of Poland isn't all that much better with 77% casualties (East Europe Sourcebook) and a LOT more radioactive craters.

[kalos72]

Well as for Poland, it received less then half the total hits at only 20% of the tonnage the US did and NONE of them were ground hits so residual radiation is not an issue.

So again, according to canon, Poland is safer and has a better change to survive then the US and HW pushes it over the top with the weather changes, that no other country is experiencing.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Umm, not so. Look at Silesia and it's 97% casualty rate as per Black Madonna.
The rest of Poland isn't all that much better with 77% casualties (East Europe Sourcebook) and a LOT more radioactive craters.

The East Europe Sourcebook has a bunch of holes in it - not exactly the most reliable source of information - which has been discussed a lot as well.

And Silesia has an organized government and military, functional towns and some industry and grows enough food to not only feed itself but export some to Krakow - I will check my copy of Black Madonna but I don't remember a 97% casualty rate - maybe in the cities that got nuked