Recommissioned US Navy ships

[Targan]

I don't really have any issue with the idea of the Tarawa being seaworthy and in active USN service, if it's post-Omega. Heck, there have been a couple of scenarios suggested for the Tarawa's ongoing service that I would support, given a bit more fleshing out. There are other examples where information on USN vessels is open to interpretation. An example - there are USN destroyers mentioned in A Rock in Troubled Waters that may well have been involved in escorting the Omega fleet either as part of the fleet all the way from Bremerhaven or for only part of the way. Those vessels weren't specifically stated as having been in the Omega fleet, but then again they weren't stated not to have been either.

Tarawa kind of falls into that category, too, but as I've said in previous posts it just seems unlikely to me that with a Spruance-class destroyer being specifically mentioned in Going Home, the Tarawa would be part of the fleet and not mentioned (and even more unlikely that it wasn't the flagship).

I like the idea of Tarawa not being in a suitable condition for the main Omega evacuation but being seaworthy enough by some time during 2001 to evacuate the Marines (and maybe 8th ID) from Poland/the Baltic States. It strikes me as a bit more unlikely, but possible, that the Tarawa was one of the ships that split off from the main Omega fleet to bring the 6000 troops to the RDF. That could certainly explain how it was initially with the Omega fleet but wasn't the flagship.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Targan

I like the idea of Tarawa not being in a suitable condition for the main Omega evacuation but being seaworthy enough by some time during 2001 to evacuate the Marines (and maybe 8th ID) from Poland/the Baltic States. It strikes me as a bit more unlikely, but possible, that the Tarawa was one of the ships that split off from the main Omega fleet to bring the 6000 troops to the RDF. That could certainly explain how it was initially with the Omega fleet but wasn't the flagship.

Targan, is a 3rd way feasible?

What about an all-encompassing Opord:Omega that has troops being pulled from Korea, Japan, Australia and points east...erm, west...and the Tarawa is conveniently the flagship of that evac mission, and it takes place at the same time, having avoided the worst of the typhoon season?

It satisfies all parties: Tarawa still afloat, but not a factor in the European/Baltic theatre.

[Olefin]

Actually having 5th Corps evacuated out with its AFV's is part of the alternate timeline that I have started to flesh out. When we did the RDF my GM looked at the 5th Corps and then looked at 6000 men and it made perfect sense - that they were sent out in their own evac, with their AFV's as part of an operation that deviated from Omega.

I.e. Omega took everyone but 5th Corps home without their tanks and 5th Corp went with their tanks and men to the RDF, giving them the men and AFV's to stop the last Soviet offensive and then push them out of Iran.

And how did they keep their tanks - because they got evac'd with ships from the states while the rest had to go home on the German ships and the fare for those ships was their heavy weapons and vehicles.

It also explains why the East Coast is so short of fuel in Troubled Waters - because they had to give most of their fuel to the convoy taking the 5th Corps to the RDF.

And by the way all of those suppositions fit totally into canon - it supports the written material of Omega and the RDF, explains where the 6000 men came from, and how the US and its allies drove the Soviets out of Iran for 2300 AD.

As for Tarawa - having her dispatched for an Asian Omega also makes a lot of sense - where are a bunch of Marine units that would need to be evacuated - answer- Korea. And she would be perfect to evacuate them.

And Leg, Tarawa being added to the USN in no way harms canon. She doesnt overpower any scenario or the outcome of any scenario.

Plus she adds a great way to get players back to Europe for the return to Europe scenario as well - i.e. she is late to the party for Omega or does the RDF evac - goes back to the States with the men who in the RDF choose to go home (it is mentioned that some do choose to go home and the best way to get them home is the ship or ships that brought the reinforcements), then is dispatched to Europe (possibly after being fueled with some of the oil from Gulf Forty) for a second Omega to get the remains of the 8th ID and the Marines out (and drops the player party off for the Return modules as well)

[Targan]

Panther Al, raketenjagdpanzer, Olefin - these ideas all have merit. Just to clarify a few things for my own understanding - say we have the Tarawa as the flagship of the Bremerhaven to Middle East Omega part of the Omega fleet, when she gets to the eastern end of the Mediterranean are she and her escorts able to traverse the Suez Canal? If so, we can wrap up many of these ideas in a nice, neat package.

There was an interesting discussion here a year or more ago about MilGov naval and merchant marine assets using Australian ports during long Pacific and Indian Ocean transits. If the Tarawa was able to take Omega evacuees directly to Saudi or Iran she would certainly then be able to take on fuel and undergo maintenance before travelling on to Australia, Korea and Japan. I guess then she'd be taking the troops to a west coast MilGov enclave. But it would work well, and she'd make a great addition to the seaborne lifeline between the CONUS and the RDF.

[Olefin]

It would make sense - she isnt on the Omega task force list because she is on a different mission that is going to the Middle East with the 6000 reinforcements - the Hancock and her Task Force are going home and the Tarawa and the 5th corps and their task force are going to the RDF

and all canon aspects are met completly since the RDF ever mentioned what ships brought the men there

works for me

[Legbreaker]

The Suez has been discussed a few times before and the consensus seems to be that it's closed. In the mid 50's a number of ships were sunk in the channel blocking it (on the order of Egyptian President Nasser) so we know it's quite possible.
A similar situation could be assumed in T2K - ships sunk, mines laid, and as at least one member of this forum has suggested, the area subjected to nukes.

With regard to the 6,000 troops sent to Iran, this calculator http://www.searates.com/reference/portdistance shows us that at 16 knots, it will take roughly 4 weeks from Bremerhaven to Bandar Abbas via the Cape of Good hope. This works nicely for the December arrival in Iran and CENTCOM's "early Christmas present".

The transit of the Atlantic which was to take ten days (arriving 25th November) requires a speed of 15 knots if the English Channel was taken. Given the hostility of the French as detailed in Boomer, it's more likely TF34 would go up around the north of Scotland (as would the ships bound for the Middle East), thereby requiring a slightly faster pace to still make the planned 10 day transit.

If the Middle East ships were to take the Suez, at that speed they'd arrive way too early, around the 1st or second of December. Admittedly that still fits the December arrival, however I would expect to see that described as "early December" if it was the case.

Could ships make better than 16 knots? Undoubtedly a few certainly could, however convoys are restricted to the slowest vessel. In WWII, this was as little as 3 knots. Something else to remember is the majority of TF34 was made up of "a hodge-podge collection of container ships, general cargo ships and tankers, excursion ships, and smaller vessels felt large enough to survive the crossing". Most of these ships would be lucky to have received much in the way of preventative maintenance since 1997 and it would seem unlikely any would be capable of their full theoretical speed. The John Hancock itself is likely to be suffering battle damage (as would any other military vessels).

6,000 troops is a lot. Even if the Tarawa was available and seaworthy, it's only rated to carry 1,900 marines. Additional ships would certainly be needed (which I propose would be mainly tankers to take advantage of the oil available in the Middle East for the possible voyage back to Germany). A tanker would be needed to accompany these ships too as the Cape of Good Hope route is about 1,000 miles further than the Tarawa's range.

With 33,730 cubic feet available for vehicles, and an M1 tank being approximately 2,500 cubic feet, only about a dozen tanks can fit. Given that restriction, the Omega orders to turn over all vehicles to the Germans and the need to feed and house 6,000 troops for a month, I just can't see any tanks going to Iran even in the unlikely event Tarawa was available.

One other piece of evidence against the Tarawa going to the Middle East is the list of US ships contained in the RDF Sourcebook. Note that the order of battle in that book is as of the 1st of January 2001, only shortly after the arrival of the reinforcements. Note also those reinforcements would have to be included in the OOB presented. There's a very good chance that the majority of the reinforcements would still be in the Bandar Abbas area (not really enough time to disburse them all to their new units).

[Olefin]

Actually Leg the RDF book proves that they had to load tanks and helos from Germany and bring them to the RDF

and missing ships doesnt mean anything - Frank said that the French had a naval squadron in the area and then left them out of the OOB - so leaving out US ships could also have been done

You can tell by looking at the US vehicle guide versus the RDF

24th Mech
July 1, 2000 - 2000 men, 9 M1A2
Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 18 AFV

101st

July 1, 2000 - 4000 men 4 AH-64
Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 4 AH-64, 12 UH-60

9th ID

July 1, 2000 - 1500 men, 12 LAV-75
Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men, 16 AFV

82nd
July 1, 2000 -3000 men, 7 AFV
Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men 12 AFV

6th ACCB
July 1, 2000 - 600 men 12 AH-64
Jan 1, 2001 - 1100 men, 6 OH-58, 12 AH-64

1st Marine
July 1, 2000 - 3000 men, 6 M1
Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men 16 AFV
3rd Marine
July 1, 2000 - 4000 men 5 M1
Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 12 AFV

Add up the difference and what do you get

4000 men
35 AFV's
12 UH-60 helos
6 OH-58 helos

meaning 2000 men havent been accounted for yet in the formations or they took losses in men and AFV's between June and Jan and they were made up

So that makes a possible 3rd Armored Division transfer even more likely along with possibly the other 1000 men being assigned with the 18 helos

they had 5000 men and 54 AFV after all and that definitely would give the RDF the reinforcements seen above

and the remaining men and AFV's may not have arrived yet - its says the first of 6000 reinforcements arrived in Dec of 2000 - it doesnt say that they had all arrived

so there it is Leg - its canon that tanks and helos were brought from Europe to the RDF in the December 2000 reinforcement

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

With regard to the 6,000 troops sent to Iran, this calculator http://www.searates.com/reference/portdistance shows us that at 16 knots, it will take roughly 4 weeks from Bremerhaven to Bandar Abbas via the Cape of Good hope. This works nicely for the December arrival in Iran and CENTCOM's "early Christmas present".

The transit of the Atlantic which was to take ten days (arriving 25th November) requires a speed of 15 knots if the English Channel was taken. Given the hostility of the French as detailed in Boomer, it's more likely TF34 would go up around the north of Scotland (as would the ships bound for the Middle East), thereby requiring a slightly faster pace to still make the planned 10 day transit.

If the Middle East ships were to take the Suez, at that speed they'd arrive way too early, around the 1st or second of December. Admittedly that still fits the December arrival, however I would expect to see that described as "early December" if it was the case.

Thanks for doing the leg work on those numbers, Leg An around the Cape trip would work fine. And in my last campaign I had the main Omega fleet sailing north of Scotland, too.