RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-13-2018, 07:08 PM
Cdnwolf's Avatar
Cdnwolf Cdnwolf is offline
The end is nigh!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,432
Default The over run of the 256th Brigade

I am trying to modify the Assault game to replicate the death of the 256th Brigade.

I know the main attackers are the 124th Motorized Rifle Division, but very little details of the attack are mentioned. Did anyone every role-play this event or even worked out details of what happened?
__________________
*************************************
Each day I encounter stupid people I keep wondering... is today when I get my first assault charge??
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-20-2018, 05:00 PM
Cdnwolf's Avatar
Cdnwolf Cdnwolf is offline
The end is nigh!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,432
Default

Still looking for any info on this section of the battle. Can't find anything in the archives.

Basically looking for info on the destruction of the 256'th Brigade days before the final battle at Kalisz.
__________________
*************************************
Each day I encounter stupid people I keep wondering... is today when I get my first assault charge??
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-20-2018, 05:02 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,158
Default

do you have the V1 game rules - there is a great writeup of the battle there
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-20-2018, 09:42 PM
Cdnwolf's Avatar
Cdnwolf Cdnwolf is offline
The end is nigh!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,432
Default

All it says is

July 16: The division's situation began deteriorating rapidly.
256th Brigade at Lask was hit hard from the east and northeast
by strong mechanized forces and the brigade headquarters
was overrun. Still short of fuel, most of the brigade's
tanks fought and died in place, and surviving personnel broke
out on foot into the woods to the southwest. The attacking force
was identified as the Soviet 124th Motorized Rifle Division,
another component of the 4th Guards Tank Army

My question is how strong was the 124th MRD if it was able to take out a full brigade with 1 Armor and Mechanized Bttns?
__________________
*************************************
Each day I encounter stupid people I keep wondering... is today when I get my first assault charge??
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-20-2018, 09:47 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,158
Default

The 256th and the 1st had to have really beaten the snot out of the 124th - by the end of the battle all they had left was 3000 men and 6 tanks

"A Soviet captain from the 124th Motor Rifle Division is still stunned from the beating his division took from the 1st Brigade. He just keeps shaking his head and cursing "Those damned
M1's!" He commanded a battalion of twelve tanks, and his whole battalion was wiped out in the first ten minutes of the battle."

The description of that force shows just how badly they were handled by the two US brigades and that they must have lost a lot of tanks between the two fights

Soviet 124th Motorized Rifle Division: Commanded by Major R. B. Bologov. The division took very heavy casualties the previous day, including the three highest ranking officers in the
division. Current effective strength is 3,000 men and 6 tanks, but they are scattered and very short of ammunition and fuel (most of their forward supply vehicles have been destroyed).
Small groups of troops were reorganizing and trying to hold athin line astride the Sieradz-Kalisz road, but this line has been shattered by the final breakout attacks. There are other pockets
of troops in Sieradz, Zloczew, and the woods west of Zloczew. The woods east of Zloczew contain several hundred stragglers from the division. The woods southeast of Zloczew are also full
of demoralized stragglers. None of the small groups reorganizing have more than 200 men and a tank or two. Major Bologov has his headquarters in Sieradz and is collecting stragglers as
they try to cross the bridge. He has assembled about 300 men there. The supply dump and rear echelon hub of the division is at Piotrkow. There are about 200 men there from the division.
Morale is very low and most of the men are not prepared to put up any sort of a stiff fight.

Last edited by Olefin; 09-20-2018 at 09:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-20-2018, 10:04 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,158
Default

So given that description of how heavy they were hit and still had 3000 men and six tanks left then the 124th may have been close to full strength when the attack occurred - so lets say the 124th still had all its tank battalions and all were at a strength of 12 tanks - there are three motor rifle regiments each with a tank battalion plus a tank regiment

that gives six battalions - so a total of 72 tanks at the start of the battle

if all they had left at the end were 6 tanks (of which at least were non-operational) then the 256th must have fought hard before it went down and then the 1st absolutely butchered what was left
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-20-2018, 10:43 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is online now
Blood soaked, axe wielding psycho
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,237
Send a message via Yahoo to Legbreaker
Default

However:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soviet Vehicle Guide
124TH MOTORIZED RIFLE DIVISION
A Mobilization Only division from the western Ukraine, the 124th was activated in late 1997 or early 1998. Only a small part of the division's men and equipment have ever assembled, and the unit has seen little action.
Subordination: 4th Guards Tank Army
Current Location: Central Poland
Manpower: 3000
Tanks: 6
Given they were a Category 3 unit, it's very likely they were only equipped with older T-62's and the like, with much of their AT capability in the form of towed guns and man portable missiles. Wouldn't take many M1's to deal with the 40 year old Ukrainian tanks which were fielded.
The lack of fuel for the M1's also explains how infantry could sneak up and take them out with RPGs, etc.

Now as to the strength of the 256th, I doubt very much they were anything close to complete. The 5th ID had been fighting since December 1996 and involved in most of the major actions in Europe. Their immediate opposition (the 124th) had barely seen any action, so their troops were fresh and their equipment, while old, wasn't carrying any battle damage.

Also, commanders don't like their soldiers sitting around with nothing to do, and given the 124th had been activated in 97-98, that gives them a solid 2 years or more of training. Chances are they wouldn't have had a lot of fuel or large calibre ammo to practice with, but I bet their infantry would have been pretty damn good!
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-21-2018, 07:39 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,158
Default

Keep in mind that the 3000 men and 6 tanks is what they had left at the end of the battle - the V1 Battle of Kalisz had descriptions of what the Soviet units were like at the end of the battle

The 124th was depicted as having taken very heavy casualties during the battle - especially at the hands of the 1st Brigade - i.e. the one encounter where the M1's of the 1st slaughtered a whole battalion of 12 tanks in ten minutes is detailed for instance - and that the division is broken up and the highest level commander still alive is a Major!

"Soviet 124th Motorized Rifle Division: Commanded by Major R. B. Bologov. The division took very heavy casualties the previous day, including the three highest ranking officers in the division. Current effective strength is 3,000 men and 6 tanks, but they are scattered and very short of ammunition and fuel (most of their forward supply vehicles have been destroyed)."

That is an exact quote from the battle description in the V1 boxed edition rules and the scenario that is used to kick off the campaign and the game

They had at least some modern tanks - the tanks in Sieradz are T-80's and are part of the 124th - so we arent talking old T-54's here - at the very least they had T-80's as part of their tank battalions

I think that this is a case where the Soviet Vehicle Guide and the V1 description of the battle are in conflict as to what that division had - and given that the V1 description of the division and the battle is the initial canon point I will take that over the Soviet vehicle guides

Oh one last thing - if they did have anti-tank missiles they must have almost all been lost - that unit in Sieradz, the largest group left - had a grand total of one anti-tank missile launcher left and no towed anti-tank guns
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-21-2018, 07:55 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,158
Default

FYI based on the description of the battle if anyone is trying to do scenarios with the Soviet divisions that occurred prior to the start or during the battle it is very apparent that they need to adjust the strengths of the Soviet units from what is in the final battle description and the Soviet vehicle guide.

i.e. the 124th ends the battle with 6 tanks left (of which at least two are immobile and damaged) but from the description we know they had at least 12 more tanks and most likely more than that before the battle that were lost during the Battle of Kalisz
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-21-2018, 08:54 AM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is online now
Blood soaked, axe wielding psycho
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,237
Send a message via Yahoo to Legbreaker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Oh one last thing - if they did have anti-tank missiles they must have almost all been lost - that unit in Sieradz, the largest group left - had a grand total of one anti-tank missile launcher left and no towed anti-tank guns
Indeed.
My thoughts are in the final few hours the component units of the US 5th ID wouldn't have held anything back. Any ammo they had on hand would have been dumped on the attackers both in a desperate attempt to survive, and also to deny it to the enemy when they were finally overrun.
This may explain in part why the 124th didn't have much left afterwards too - the 5th's artillery took most of it out and a few ambushes of their supply vehicles took care of the rest.
Just a thought...
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-21-2018, 12:17 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,158
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Indeed.
My thoughts are in the final few hours the component units of the US 5th ID wouldn't have held anything back. Any ammo they had on hand would have been dumped on the attackers both in a desperate attempt to survive, and also to deny it to the enemy when they were finally overrun.
This may explain in part why the 124th didn't have much left afterwards too - the 5th's artillery took most of it out and a few ambushes of their supply vehicles took care of the rest.
Just a thought...
Oh I agree on them getting captured ammo or equipment from the 5th - after all remember the set up - i.e. the 5th distributed all the fuel and ammo they had left so everyone had full loads and the artillery was going to shoot off everything they had left for the breakout - meaning there really wasnt anything left to capture

and the Soviet and Polish units that took it on the chin during the battle probably expended most of what they had just fighting for survival themselves
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-21-2018, 09:22 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is online now
Blood soaked, axe wielding psycho
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,237
Send a message via Yahoo to Legbreaker
Default

The Pact forces at least expected to have a working (for the time) supply chain to replenish their stocks. The 5th, even if they'd somehow pulled off a miracle, had virtually no hope of resupply. Kalisz really was a last stand situation for them - break out, or die trying.
Even the Germans at Stalingrad had some small supply behind them with the woefully inadequate air lifts - a factor which really just prolonged the inevitable.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.