Primitive and early weapons, Kinda T2K......

[swaghauler]

I still have issues with how Bows, Crossbow, and other "primitive" weapons are treated in game. My Compound Bow (80lbs draw weight) using a 400-grain broadhead will COMPLETELY PENETRATE a whitetail deer at up to 40 meters. and there are NUMEROUS videos showing bolts and arrows penetrating up to Level 3A soft body armor and even PASGT helmets. I particularly like the videos presented by The Chopping Block and Twang&Bang, but Jeff Quitney has the best video comparing penetration of weapons. It is a 2 minute Army SF video comparing the M1911 Pistol, M1 Carbine, M1 Garand, and a recurve bow's penetration in a dirt-filled box. The 30-06 won't penetrate, but the broadhead punches right through.

The damage in game isn't right either. I would bet that my Compound bow has stopping power equal to a .44 magnum pistol in the real world. Any bow or crossbow damage should be based on the weapon's Draw Weight. I have been contemplating every 20 lbs of draw weight equalling 1 STR point. Thus an 80lb draw weight would require a STR of 4 to use. Damage could be something like:

STR 1 or 2 = 1D6
STR 3 to 5 = 2D6
STR 6 to 8 = 3D6
STR 9 to 10 = 4D6


Crossbows could be the same but using 1D10 for the damage dice.

Slings might be something like:

STR 1 = 1D6-1
STR 2 or 5 = 1D6
STR 6 to 9 = 1D10
STR 10 = 2D6

This still doesn't address the Penetration issues.

[The Dark]

The WTH numbers are all based on kinetic energy. Using IBO numbers (350 grain arrow, 70-lb draw) at 400 fps (faster than current 70-lb draw bows can shoot, but within the realm of possibility, and it's what I have numbers for) generates about 120 ft-lbs of force, which is about 163 joules. That still works out to Dam 1. You need at least 506.25 joules to get Dam 2 under the damage formula (sqrt of E, divided by 15, rounded to nearest whole number). That works out to 374 foot-pounds. For a 400 grain arrow, you'd need a velocity of approximately 650 fps to get Dam 2.

All that said, I agree that the formula is probably giving Dam numbers that are too low. 65 foot-pounds is supposed to be enough to hunt even large game (as long as you have good aim), but that's going to be Dam -1 in the WTH system. I'm thinking the divisor needs to be dropped significantly for high-mass projectiles, possibly to 10 or even 5. I haven't worked through what that would do for edge cases, so it's possible that would break more than it would fix. Of course, archery should also require more selections per point of skill, because it's more difficult than using a modern firearm.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by The Dark

The WTH numbers are all based on kinetic energy. Using IBO numbers (350 grain arrow, 70-lb draw) at 400 fps (faster than current 70-lb draw bows can shoot, but within the realm of possibility, and it's what I have numbers for) generates about 120 ft-lbs of force, which is about 163 joules. That still works out to Dam 1. You need at least 506.25 joules to get Dam 2 under the damage formula (sqrt of E, divided by 15, rounded to nearest whole number). That works out to 374 foot-pounds. For a 400 grain arrow, you'd need a velocity of approximately 650 fps to get Dam 2.

All that said, I agree that the formula is probably giving Dam numbers that are too low. 65 foot-pounds is supposed to be enough to hunt even large game (as long as you have good aim), but that's going to be Dam -1 in the WTH system. I'm thinking the divisor needs to be dropped significantly for high-mass projectiles, possibly to 10 or even 5. I haven't worked through what that would do for edge cases, so it's possible that would break more than it would fix. Of course, archery should also require more selections per point of skill, because it's more difficult than using a modern firearm.

The main reason guns surpassed bows, a couple of hours to learn one, 20 years to master the other.

[Pinhead Slim]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

transferred energy

It's pretty easy to figure out how powerful an arrow should be, depending on how heavy the arrow is and the velocity of the arrow when it leaves the weapon. It proves that the books have it closer to "right" than you do though, I imagine most bows/arrows used would be around 50ft/lbs. From what I saw most arrows weigh around 400 grains, and a .44 magnum has around 200 grains. The arrow goes a few hundred FPS and the .44 goes about a thousand.

The fact that a "pass-through" is kind of an accomplishment sort of sets my point in stone, that an arrow is about as combat effective as a large handgun/small carbine and the rules almost reflect that. If 4D6 would put it on the same level as 7.62x51 Nato, then it's too high lol. Maybe 2D6, but even then I wouldn't feel good about that because the arrows don't fragment/mushroom/all the good stuff most bullets do. Unless the arrows were broadheads or something.

[.45cultist]

Some one should stat the special arrow Fred Bear used to kill an elephant.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Pinhead Slim

It's pretty easy to figure out how powerful an arrow should be, depending on how heavy the arrow is and the velocity of the arrow when it leaves the weapon. It proves that the books have it closer to "right" than you do though, I imagine most bows/arrows used would be around 50ft/lbs. From what I saw most arrows weigh around 400 grains, and a .44 magnum has around 200 grains. The arrow goes a few hundred FPS and the .44 goes about a thousand.

The fact that a "pass-through" is kind of an accomplishment sort of sets my point in stone, that an arrow is about as combat effective as a large handgun/small carbine and the rules almost reflect that. If 4D6 would put it on the same level as 7.62x51 Nato, then it's too high lol. Maybe 2D6, but even then I wouldn't feel good about that because the arrows don't fragment/mushroom/all the good stuff most bullets do. Unless the arrows were broadheads or something.

In this post, you fall into EXACTLY the same "engineering trap" that the developers did by using kinetic energy for all damages. Let us examine the lowly knife. In the game, it would "move" at about 20 meters per second because that's how fast the average man can thrust or swing one. Its 500-gram weight WON'T make up for its very low speed. by the logic of FF&S, the knife should only do 1D6-1, yet the developers decided (correctly in my opinion) to give it the same damage as an M16. Why? Because it uses a different "damage mechanism" than the "Kinetic Energy" formula used for guns in game. Bows and other "projectile weapons" use a similar method of doing damage by penetrating AND cutting/lacerating the target. They have more in common with knives than guns.

Let's look at a comparison of firearms versus projectile weapons (bow, crossbows, and atlatls) in the light of hunting and the energy needed to "ethically hunt" various game animals.

Deer: To ethically hunt deer, you will need a firearm that produces 1500 foot pounds of energy to ensure a clean kill. For projectile weapons, the minimum energy needed is 25 foot pounds of energy. It takes 60 TIMES more kinetic energy to kill a deer with a firearm than it does to kill one with a projectile weapon.

Elk/Black Bear: To ethically hunt the larger North American game, it is recommended that you use a firearm with a minimum energy of 2400 ft/lbs. To hunt that same game with a projectile weapon, you will need 42 to 65 ft/lbs of energy. At the minimum threshold, the firearm will need 57 TIMES more kinetic energy to kill an Elk or a Black Bear.

The Grizzly Bear: To ethically hunt a Grizzly Bear, the firearm will need 3000 ft/lbs of energy. The projectile weapon will need only 65 to 70 ft/lbs of energy to effect a clean kill. The firearm requires roughly 60 TIMES the energy of a projectile weapon to kill a Grizzly Bear.

The obvious difference here is that the range for firearms is assumed to be 100 yards while the bow's average effective range is between 20 and 40 yards (why you'd hunt a Grizzly at 40 yards is beyond me). This still doesn't change the fact that kinetic energy CANNOT be used to compare the two classes of weapons.

Obviously, the formula in FF&S/Small Arms Guide WON'T WORK for projectile weapons. This is why I posted the very preliminary chart based on STR above. When you called me out on the chart above, you said 4D6 was "unreasonable" because it matched the damage of a .308 in the game. Keep in mind, the STR 10 bow damage represents a bow with a pull weight of 200 lbs. I am willing to bet REAL MONEY, that 9 out every 10 users of this forum (your's truly included) could NOT effectively draw and fire a 200lb bow. Additionally, the rule of thumb for arrows is: "5 Grains of arrow weight for every pound of Draw Weight." This means that the 200lb bow above would probably be launching a typical medieval Bodkin point war arrow weighing 935 Grains (this is NOT a typo). A 400-grain arrow shaft COULD snap if fired from a 200 lb bow. This all also assumes an average Draw Length of 30" for the arrow shaft. Thus the STR 10 (4D6 DAM) represents a bow 90% of the population could never use. The more common 60lb to 80lb Draw Weight bows only do 2D6 damage. This represents 80% of all bows in use and would require a STR of 3 or 4 to use effectively. I simply included a STR chart to allow a GM to vary the power of bows in game. To use the chart for Crossbows, I would make the ratio of STR to Draw Weight 1 point per 50lbs of Draw Weight. I would also increase the damage dice to D10. This is because, in my game, rifles do D10 and pistols do D6. For example, the damages for various calibers in my game are:

.22LR or .32 ACP = 1D6-1
.380 ACP or .38 Special (2") = 1D6
9mmP = 2D6
45 ACP = 3D6
.40 S&W = 3D6
.44 Magnum = 4D6
5.45mm X 39mm = 2D10
5.56mmN = 2D10
7.62mm X 39mm = 3D10
7.62mmN = 4D10

Note that I still use the original formula to figure out rifle damage, I just substitute D10s for D6s. For pistols, I "split" the energy levels up to 5000ft/lbs (I'm using English rather than metric because my reloading manuals are all in ft/lbs and fps) and use the appropriate number of D6s for said pistol energies.

The Atlatl: The Atlatl is actually fairly effective as projectile weapons go. It is launching a 6 foot/1.85 meter long, 1034 Grain (67gram) "dart" at 146 fps/45 ms. This generates around 50 foot pounds of energy, enough to kill an elk or black bear. Another feature that improves damage is an arrowhead that is at least twice as long as a bow's arrowhead is. I would make its base range STR X 2. Both the Atlatl and the Sling are very hard to use. I would make them One Level more difficult to use at any given range.

I still haven't worked on the Penetration issue yet, but a PEN 1 SEEMS to work ok with my damages. Slings should be MUCH worse (they follow firearms ballistics with regards to PEN).

I would welcome anyone else's ideas on how to make projectile weapons behave more like their real-world counterparts.

[The Dark]

I would go longer for an atlatl's range. On my first day using one, I was doing direct fire (i.e. not trying to loft darts) at a target 30 yards away. With my mediocre strength, that should be extreme range, but it was closer to short/medium in how I was launching the darts. I'm also not sure it should be tied to strength; like a pitcher throwing a baseball, there is a minimum level of strength needed, but the technique matters more than brute power.

935 grains would be light for an English warbow arrow. Based on Mary Rose reconstructions, military arrows look to have ranged from 1200 to 1500 grains. From a 150-lb bow (most of the Mary Rose bows are 150-160), a 1500 grain arrow would generate 134 joules at launch, 115 joules at 50 meters, 98 joules at 100 meters, 85 joules at 150 meters, 80 joules at 180 meters, and 78 joules at 200 meters. At 100 meters, it might penetrate maille over a gambeson, but not plate of 2mm or greater thickness. A broadhead, because it would spread the energy over a broader surface, would have less or no Pen (but probably more Dam) against hard armor. Kevlar gets weird with cutting versus piercing.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by The Dark

I would go longer for an atlatl's range. On my first day using one, I was doing direct fire (i.e. not trying to loft darts) at a target 30 yards away. With my mediocre strength, that should be extreme range, but it was closer to short/medium in how I was launching the darts. I'm also not sure it should be tied to strength; like a pitcher throwing a baseball, there is a minimum level of strength needed, but the technique matters more than brute power.

935 grains would be light for an English warbow arrow. Based on Mary Rose reconstructions, military arrows look to have ranged from 1200 to 1500 grains. From a 150-lb bow (most of the Mary Rose bows are 150-160), a 1500 grain arrow would generate 134 joules at launch, 115 joules at 50 meters, 98 joules at 100 meters, 85 joules at 150 meters, 80 joules at 180 meters, and 78 joules at 200 meters. At 100 meters, it might penetrate maille over a gambeson, but not plate of 2mm or greater thickness. A broadhead, because it would spread the energy over a broader surface, would have less or no Pen (but probably more Dam) against hard armor. Kevlar gets weird with cutting versus piercing.

I didn't know about the Mary Rose reconstructions. Thanks for pointing it out. It was a good read. My experience came from shooting a replica "Mongol Composite Recurve" bow (120lb draw weight) with that 935-grain arrow. My back hurt the next day from shooting it.

I think that when you look at the energies used for "ethical hunting," you see that 60 Times the actual energy is an average ratio for all bows. I would say that it might be possible to come up with an "Energy Multiplier" to multiply the Base Energy of projectile weapons by BEFORE you do the calculation to determine the Damage Dice. A Multiplier of 25 jumps out at me initially, but I haven't tested it yet.

[copeab]

IIRC, the World Tamers Handbook for TNE had construction rules for black powder weapons and possibly bows/crossbows.

[pmulcahy11b]

Hmmm, that could be worked on. Add it to the growing and long list of stuff I need to do.