Primitive and early weapons, Kinda T2K......

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Adjusting Twilight2000 V2.2's Damage:

I would multiply a projectile weapon's KE by a modifier BEFORE doing the calculation for basic damage dice. This modifier needs to take into account the SCD of the weapon. With that in mind, here's a test sample of modifiers.

Sling Stone (with a low SCD): 10 X KE, then use the Twilight2000 Formula.
Sling Bullet (higher SCD): 20 X KE, then use the formula.
Bows, Crossbows, and Atlatls (much higher SCD): 30 X KE, then run the formula.

This should get projectile weapons closer to real-world effectiveness.

Using this with the World Tamer's Handbook bow construction rules, a 1.8m wooden bow becomes Dam 4, and a 1.5m composite steel bow (which requires Str 10) is Dam 6.

I don't think I'd use the range modifiers, because the ranges are already pretty long (30 meters for the wood bow and 50 meters for the composite steel). Adding modifiers will make them outrange rifles; to me, that's undesirable. Of course, as always, each campaign can judge for itself.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by The Dark

Using this with the World Tamer's Handbook bow construction rules, a 1.8m wooden bow becomes Dam 4, and a 1.5m composite steel bow (which requires Str 10) is Dam 6.

I don't think I'd use the range modifiers, because the ranges are already pretty long (30 meters for the wood bow and 50 meters for the composite steel). Adding modifiers will make them outrange rifles; to me, that's undesirable. Of course, as always, each campaign can judge for itself.

I'm looking at the copy I bought from DriveThru now. Between the museums and pattern rooms and the primative and BP shooting clubs, my "Home Front" notes are going to get more stuff. Liberty Missouri has a "suttler" store with pictures of some clubs, including a German one that bought some of their partisan shirts. Bows backed by BP revolvers could give a nasty shock to a brigand band.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by The Dark

Using this with the World Tamer's Handbook bow construction rules, a 1.8m wooden bow becomes Dam 4, and a 1.5m composite steel bow (which requires Str 10) is Dam 6.

I don't think I'd use the range modifiers, because the ranges are already pretty long (30 meters for the wood bow and 50 meters for the composite steel). Adding modifiers will make them outrange rifles; to me, that's undesirable. Of course, as always, each campaign can judge for itself.

I don't have the World Tamer's Handbook (I only have FF&S and the Small Arms Guides in both versions) so I have no idea how it figures range. I guess I'll have to get the PDF now. The ranges I was postulating were Base Ranges that were modified NOT adds to the WTH modifications. This is because my primary source, The Small Arms Guide, doesn't even list a method of determining Range other than "comparative analysis" of weapons that are already in the guide. I can see your confusion, though, because there were a few "typos" in both posts that I had to correct.

I'm still not sold on how the WTH calculates range based on bow size. This is because a Mongol Composite Bow with a draw length of 26" and an English Yew Longbow with a draw length of 30" can both have the same "Draw Weight." They would be shooting the same weight of arrow and have roughly the same maximum range. This is because the shorter but thicker/higher density for its length Mongol arrow would be less affected by drag (because of its shorter length) while the Longbow arrow would suffer more drag because of its 4" longer length. The Longbow arrow would have launched at about 40 fps faster than the shorter Mongol arrow so both would travel about the same distance. Up close, the Longbow would shoot MUCH flatter than the Mongol Bow and would have a longer "point blank range" (the distance where elevation is NOT needed to hit a target) than the Mongol Bow. One must also consider that most bows shooting arrows of standard weight (between 5 and 10 grains per pound of Draw Weight) will have lost between 40% and 50% of their Kinetic Energy at 100 meters.


I have been giving my initial thoughts on Range some more consideration today and I would offer an alternate take on determining range "comparatively" (a la Small Arms Guide) based on the following characteristics.

1) Draw Weight. I'm using the STR of the Bow based on dividing a bow's draw weight by 20. to determine the Range Bonus, just add STR in METERS to the bow's base range. An 80lb Compound Bow would add 4 meters to its Base Range for draw weight. Crossbows require 1 STR per 50 pounds of Draw Weight.

2) Efficiency. After doing a little research during my lunch break today, I found out that Efficiency varies by more than I originally thought. Those folding "survival bows," the homemade PVC bows being made and shot on Youtube, and several cheap fiberglass or plastic bows all have Efficiencies below 80%. This means that a 40lb PVC bow will only impart 32lbs of force to the arrow. This reduces the arrow's Kinetic Energy significantly. Most modern, professionally made bows, regardless of what they are constructed from, will have Efficiencies at or above 90% (with many being 95%). I figure the best way to model this would be to... DEDUCT 5 meters for Efficiencies below 80% and ADD 5 meters for Efficiencies above 90%. Efficiencies between 80% and 90% would make NO CHANGE to the bow's Base Range. The Base Range CANNOT be reduced below 5m by poor Efficiency.

3) Draw Length. The longer the length of draw that a bow has, the longer the string acts to transfer energy from the bow. This is a measurable 10 fps per added inch of travel. Thus Draw Length has a large impact on Range because a faster arrow just "shoots flatter" (giving a better "point blank" range for that bow). Lighter arrows like Turkish "Flight Arrows" can also improve range but this is a "fine line" because lighter arrows are more affected by wind and drag. This is why hunters of larger game (at longer ranges) and warriors prefer heavier arrows. Their momentum is less affected by the environment (even if one must aim a little higher to account for their increased drop at range). I like the idea of adding 1 meter for every inch of Draw Length over 29" (13" for Crossbows) and subtracting 1 meter for every inch below 25" (7" for Crossbows) of Draw Length.

4) Bow Type. Differing bow types have different efficiencies and power levels based on the manner of their construction. Keep in mind that the type of construction used in a bow has NOTHING to do with Draw Weight. A self-bow could have a 200lb Draw Weight despite its simple construction (relying on the material to withstand the force like a Yew Longbow does). These types are:

The Self-Bow: The most basic bow type. This bow is made of one material and forms a "D" when drawn. This Bow is the type made when crafting a bow in a "survival situation." I would give this Bow a 5-meter base range (10 meters for Crossbows).

The Composite Bow: This more advanced bow is made from a combination of materials such as bone and wood. It can hold more power than the Self-Bow and has better Efficiency. I would give the Composite Bow a base range of 10 meters (15 meters for Crossbows). This bow type can be combined with the Recurve Bow below, in that instance, you can increase the Composite Recurve Bow's Base Range to 15 meters (20 meters for Crossbows).

The Recurve Bow: This bow has the limbs of the bowstave bent forward. This increases the amount of time the string imparts energy to the arrow (by increasing the bow's "impulse of fire") increasing energy transfer (efficiency) and (slightly) the length of draw. I give the Recurve Bow a Base Range of 10 meters (Crossbows get 15 meters). Composite Recurve Bows have a Base Range of 15 meters (20 meters for Crossbows...see above).

The Compound Bow: Most Compound bows use a cam and pulley system to increase both power and efficiency. Compound Bows have a series of features NOT shared by other bows. They are;
1. A Pin Sight (see below).
2. A "Letoff" that allows you to hold the bow steady to take aim on a target.
3. A fixed Draw Length that can only be adjusted by a Boyer (and by only 1") or requiring the user to use an extension and release.
4. The ability to adjust Draw Weight by up to 10 pounds.
I give the Compound Bow a Base Range of 15 meters (Crossbow's get 20 meters).

5) Sights on Modern Bows. Modern bows are often equipped with PIN Sights that let you zero a given arrow weight for up to 3 or 4 different ranges, based on the quality of the bow. I allow these sights to add 5 meters to the bow's (or Crossbow's) Base Range.


Difficulty Levels for Bows. A Compound Bow and any Modern Bows equipped with Pin Sights allows you to precisely aim to a point. This gives these Bows an AVERAGE Snap Shot. Traditional Bows have no aiming index so they are a DIFFICULT Snap Shot Chance. Truly difficult projectile weapons like Slings would be a FORMIDABLE Snap Shot. I will allow a "Point Blank" Range band for bows like I do for firearms. This is equal to the shooter's Skill Level in meters (note. you use the RAW Skill NOT the Asset here). If this is longer than the bow's Base Range, that's ok. The other Range Bands are STILL figured from the bow's Base Range (NOT the shooter's Skill Level).

So, if your Army Ranger decided to take up Archery in order to "silence" sentries at long range, we can now calculate his bow's Base Range:

Compound Bow (with Pin Sight and Quiver attached). 15 meters + 5m (sight) + 5m (95% Efficiency) + 4m (Draw STR) = 29m Base Range with an Average Snap Shot.

If he picks up a "home-made" 40lb Self Bow, his Base Range would be:

Self Bow. 5 meters - 5m (Efficiency) + 2m (Draw STR) = 5m Base Range (see Efficiency above) with a Difficult Snap Shot. A major step down in range and accuracy.

as always, use what you will and ignore the rest.

Swag.

[swaghauler]

Other projectile weapons need to be discussed as well. Here is my idea for determining the Base Ranges of other projectile weapons in the game. Keep in mind that these ranges are based on hitting an 8" circle. This is the standard for hunting and shooting sports. It represents the "vital zone" of most animal's torso's (including Humans) as well as a "head shot" on larger game.

The Sling:

Slings are very difficult to use having a FORMIDABLE Snap Shot. The Base Range of a Sling for hitting game/moving targets (as opposed to throwing into a mass of enemy soldiers) is 5 meters for a Sling STONE. A Sling BULLET (usually cast from lead) has a Base Range of 10 meters. The Character adds the TOTAL of STR and AGL in meters to this. A perfectly average character with characteristics of 5 would add 10 meters to his Sling's Base Range.

The Atlatl:

The Atlatl is a projectile weapon and DOUBLES Range (thrown weapons ADD Range in my game) just like other projectile weapons. The average hunter will harvest game at around 20 meters using an Atlatl but their ranges can be significantly more against stationary targets. The problem is that an Atlatl requires a LARGE arm movement to launch which will "alert" wary game. This limits the range to avoid the target "dodging" the incoming dart. The Atlatl CAN kill even large animals if it connects. I'm thinking that the Base Range of an Atlatl will be 2 X STR + AGL This means that an average character with characteristics of 5 would have a Base Range of 15 meters (giving a 30m Medium, 60m Long, and 120m Extreme Range). The chance to hit with an Atlatl is AVERAGE.

The Blowgun:

The Blowgun would use CON to determine Base Range in meters. It's Snap Shot accuracy is DIFFICULT.

Point Blank Range:

A projectile weapon's Point Blank Range is the shooter's Skill Level in meters. If the weapon's PB Range (as determined by Skill Level) is longer than the original Base Range, use it anyway. All other Range Bands are STILL figured from the original Base Range. A Point Blank shot is one Difficulty Level EASIER than the weapon's base Difficulty (ie. firing a Traditional Bow at PB is an AVERAGE not a DIFFICULT Skill check).

This is what I'm thinking for these weapons. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Swag.

[The Dark]

In WTH, bows have a range of triple the square root of their energy, rounded to the nearest 10 meters. The wood bow (English longbow) would generate 50 joules per meter of length, and the composite bow (Mongol bow) would generate 70 joules per meter of length, so a composite bow of 5/7 the length of a wood bow would generate the same energy and have the same range and damage.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by The Dark

In WTH, bows have a range of triple the square root of their energy, rounded to the nearest 10 meters. The wood bow (English longbow) would generate 50 joules per meter of length, and the composite bow (Mongol bow) would generate 70 joules per meter of length, so a composite bow of 5/7 the length of a wood bow would generate the same energy and have the same range and damage.

That's cool enough that I'm going to have to buy the PDF for sure now. I think I'm going to take my friend Jason's advice on Range and NOT use Skill in the primary range calculation (despite the fact that skill has far more bearing on shooting range with projectile weapons). Instead, I will do like I settled on with Firearms and allow Skill to be the weapon's Point Blank Range in meters (for firearms is use Skill in meters for long arms and 1/2 Skill (ru) in meters for handguns).

The WBH takes care of Draw Length affecting Range as well as Construction Type. The only change I might make is to factor in Efficiency so I can use it as an effect of Wear Value. I would add 10% to a bow's Efficiency, which will bring the majority of bow's above 100% (95% seems to be an upper limit on Efficiency). Bow's who won't be above 100%, like home-made PVC bows (which range from 70% to 80% depending on the builder's skill), and those take-down "survival bows" sold to "preppers" (which average 80% Efficiency) will have to multiply their base energy by their modified score. Thus, a 70% Efficiency PVC bow will multiply their Joules of Energy by .8 (after adding 10%) BEFORE doing the Damage or Range Calculations. For every 2 points of Wear Value above 1, you will SUBTRACT 5% from the bow's Efficiency (thus reducing DAM and Base Range).

The only other change I MIGHT make is to change the Range Multiplier from 3 times the square root to 2 times the square root FOR BOWS (I'd leave Crossbows alone). The ranges you list are a little "long" for most point shooting with bows. An "ethical shot" on a deer for the average hunter is 20 to 25 meters tops. An expert can pin the 8" vitals at 40 to 50 meters. A 100-meter shot would require the bowman to aim more than a FOOT over the target's head (sometimes SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than a foot). Thus, the Short/Base Range should be between 15 and 25 meters for an average (2 or 3 Skill in my game) shooter.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

That's cool enough that I'm going to have to buy the PDF for sure now. I think I'm going to take my friend Jason's advice on Range and NOT use Skill in the primary range calculation (despite the fact that skill has far more bearing on shooting range with projectile weapons). Instead, I will do like I settled on with Firearms and allow Skill to be the weapon's Point Blank Range in meters (for firearms is use Skill in meters for long arms and 1/2 Skill (ru) in meters for handguns).

The WBH takes care of Draw Length affecting Range as well as Construction Type. The only change I might make is to factor in Efficiency so I can use it as an effect of Wear Value. I would add 10% to a bow's Efficiency, which will bring the majority of bow's above 100% (95% seems to be an upper limit on Efficiency). Bow's who won't be above 100%, like home-made PVC bows (which range from 70% to 80% depending on the builder's skill), and those take-down "survival bows" sold to "preppers" (which average 80% Efficiency) will have to multiply their base energy by their modified score. Thus, a 70% Efficiency PVC bow will multiply their Joules of Energy by .8 (after adding 10%) BEFORE doing the Damage or Range Calculations. For every 2 points of Wear Value above 1, you will SUBTRACT 5% from the bow's Efficiency (thus reducing DAM and Base Range).

The only other change I MIGHT make is to change the Range Multiplier from 3 times the square root to 2 times the square root FOR BOWS (I'd leave Crossbows alone). The ranges you list are a little "long" for most point shooting with bows. An "ethical shot" on a deer for the average hunter is 20 to 25 meters tops. An expert can pin the 8" vitals at 40 to 50 meters. A 100-meter shot would require the bowman to aim more than a FOOT over the target's head (sometimes SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than a foot). Thus, the Short/Base Range should be between 15 and 25 meters for an average (2 or 3 Skill in my game) shooter.

It also has a mass combat rules for a couple hundred people, I haven't looked at those yet.

[The Dark]

Since the OP mentioned wanting black powder weapons and I was wandering in weird portions of the internet, here's one from a video I saw:

Black Powder Colt M1911A1

Originally done just as a curiosity, some regions began converting Colt M1911 pistols to fire black powder rounds as more modern powders ran short. One early problem was that the lower pressures would often fail to cycle the action, which was resolved by salvaging springs from the models chambered for 9mm Para and using those springs on the .45 Colts. The lighter spring allowed the black powder rounds to cycle normally. While still as capable of causing injury as the smokeless powder, the black powder rounds had a shorter accurate range due to the lower muzzle velocity. As smokeless powder production resumed, these guns became hazards when salvaged. Most of them were not visually distinct from unconverted M1911s, leaving them with a dangerously light spring.

M1911A1BP: RoF SA, Dam 2, Pen Nil, Bulk 1, SS 2, Burst Nil, Rng 9