4th Economics 101

[mmartin798]

That second PDF was really helpful. But my bovine research, to get a reference point, says the numbers in the chart for milk are no where near real world. Even if I were to assume 1 cow per hectare (real world is in the 2-4 range), we get 50Kg feed per cow per day and get annual milk yields of 1500-2300 Kg. That's ONE COW! Granted, we are assuming decent feed, but we are growing corn for them, so...

Ok, Goat can graze at a rate of about 6:1 compared to cows.
Goats eat about 2Kg/day
Goat give about 3Kg milk per day for 300 days, for about 900Kg/year
Goat are more prone to parasitic disease, so would require more care.
Bovine are under rated for yield in the book by about 10:1.
Bovine density in the book is 0.5 vs. about 3 rl.

For dairy goats, how does yield/hectare of 90Kg with 0.6 Kg corn to help account for the extra care they take to avoid disease?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

That second PDF was really helpful. But my bovine research, to get a reference point, says the numbers in the chart for milk are no where near real world. Even if I were to assume 1 cow per hectare (real world is in the 2-4 range), we get 50Kg feed per cow per day and get annual milk yields of 1500-2300 Kg. That's ONE COW! Granted, we are assuming decent feed, but we are growing corn for them, so...

Ok, Goat can graze at a rate of about 6:1 compared to cows.
Goats eat about 2Kg/day
Goat give about 3Kg milk per day for 300 days, for about 900Kg/year
Goat are more prone to parasitic disease, so would require more care.
Bovine are under rated for yield in the book by about 10:1.
Bovine density in the book is 0.5 vs. about 3 rl.

For dairy goats, how does yield/hectare of 90Kg with 0.6 Kg corn to help account for the extra care they take to avoid disease?

The less feed can account for goats are browsers and prefer leaves to grass stems.

Cows should be putting out more but, are dependent on grain for max yields. So maybe the 180 is a middle figure assuming more pasture and less grain?

Though why force you to grow corn? BTW cattle eat turnips and cabbage too.... also there is no in game factor for sillage, a bi product of raising corn which should reduce consumption by 1/3 of grain.

For cabbage and turnips you do (or should) grate the vegetable like you would for coleslaw...... there was even a foot powered tool that spun like a grinding wheel and you fed in cabbages from the side like a deli slicer.

[ArmySGT.]

Atleast Extraction goes together pretty simply....

Assuming you have any laborers... pick something that is reasonable for your location.

Laborers x Tech level output x material conversion factor.

Our tech level G homestead is struggling with everyone working night and day just to eat. The tech level D homestead make enough food that they have laborers engaged in other things.

So how about ..... Wood cutters supplying river boats with firewood for the steam boilers.....

2x5x0.125=1.25 or 625Kg of firewood per day.

Edit..... 500kg = a cubic meter.. The conversion factor for this is 1/8 or one eighth..... that just seems really, really low.... given saws, axes, mauls, and wedges have been around since antiquity. People fell, cut, split, and stack multiple cords in a day with unpowered tools. A cord of wood is 8 feet long by 4 feet wide by 4 feet high.. or 2.44m x 1.22m x 1.22m .... A rick is half a cord or 8 long x 2 by 2.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

That second PDF was really helpful. But my bovine research, to get a reference point, says the numbers in the chart for milk are no where near real world. Even if I were to assume 1 cow per hectare (real world is in the 2-4 range), we get 50Kg feed per cow per day and get annual milk yields of 1500-2300 Kg. That's ONE COW! Granted, we are assuming decent feed, but we are growing corn for them, so...

Ok, Goat can graze at a rate of about 6:1 compared to cows.
Goats eat about 2Kg/day
Goat give about 3Kg milk per day for 300 days, for about 900Kg/year
Goat are more prone to parasitic disease, so would require more care.
Bovine are under rated for yield in the book by about 10:1.
Bovine density in the book is 0.5 vs. about 3 rl.

For dairy goats, how does yield/hectare of 90Kg with 0.6 Kg corn to help account for the extra care they take to avoid disease?

Good news...... Tobacco, more specifically nicotine, is a natural dewormer and kills or drives out those intestinal parasites. Goats will eat it right up.

A goat farmer might need to grow tobacco to have a healthy herd.

[mmartin798]

The manufacturing sector is proving troublesome to represent easily. You end up with things like, "Need the coal mining to feed the gasifier, the gasifier feeds the chemical plant, the chemical plant feed the workshop and the farms, the workshop feed the mine, the all need power." On top of this, the products from the factories/refineries/smelters all generate thing in either barrels, tons or just man-hours. Let's try a "simple" example.

There is a community with a coal mining operation to supply fuel and feedstocks. A portion of the coal goes to the power plant. The rest goes to the coal gasification plant (actually treated as a refinery space) and the outputs are barrels of fuels, tons of coke and coal tar and presumably syngas in cubic meters. The fuel can be used for vehicles directly, the coke used to generate additional power at the plant or used in the smelter and the coal tar and syngas can be supplied to a chemical plant to make fertilizer (ammonia), methanol, acetaminophen, and other chemicals in various units. Some of these are use by the workshop to make explosives and such to supply inputs to the mine, presumably only in labor units thankfully.

Any ideas on how this combination of intermixed inputs and output might be best represented for use?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

The manufacturing sector is proving troublesome to represent easily. You end up with things like, "Need the coal mining to feed the gasifier, the gasifier feeds the chemical plant, the chemical plant feed the workshop and the farms, the workshop feed the mine, the all need power." On top of this, the products from the factories/refineries/smelters all generate thing in either barrels, tons or just man-hours. Let's try a "simple" example.

There is a community with a coal mining operation to supply fuel and feedstocks. A portion of the coal goes to the power plant. The rest goes to the coal gasification plant (actually treated as a refinery space) and the outputs are barrels of fuels, tons of coke and coal tar and presumably syngas in cubic meters. The fuel can be used for vehicles directly, the coke used to generate additional power at the plant or used in the smelter and the coal tar and syngas can be supplied to a chemical plant to make fertilizer (ammonia), methanol, acetaminophen, and other chemicals in various units. Some of these are use by the workshop to make explosives and such to supply inputs to the mine, presumably only in labor units thankfully.

Any ideas on how this combination of intermixed inputs and output might be best represented for use?

Reading this again and again... First off ...... how can this work if you don't have enough workers (all farmers growing corn!) and extraction (coal typically)........

Maybe it is indicative of the setting? Post apocalyptic... things don't work because it is all broke down?

[mmartin798]

Clearly, if you don't have the workers, you fall back to more agricultural work. You have a small oil press for your excess crops to make vegetable oil than can be used directly, or you can make some methanol via wood gasification and convert some of that vegetable oil into biodiesel. Yields would be low though.

As a family or settlement, you have more kids. Nothing says more production than more hands, even if they start out little. Once you have three generation going with the help of marrying friendly neighbors or "acquiring" a spouse by some means, you have a workforce that will start to have excess time.

Again we need to balance this out with some reason. If we need a settlement, then we make one with the required number of people or have had a massive die out by aggression, disease or some other method that has now makes for run down infrastructure, but a reason they might have saved the gasification plant and biodiesel production capacity even if they cannot really make a new one or repair the one they have once something major gives out.

My problem was if we assume one or more TL C or TL B communities that are either self sufficient or working together, how can I represent the data in the tool I am building. I think I have that worked out, I just need to implement my idea and see if it fixes my problem.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Clearly, if you don't have the workers, you fall back to more agricultural work. You have a small oil press for your excess crops to make vegetable oil than can be used directly, or you can make some methanol via wood gasification and convert some of that vegetable oil into biodiesel. Yields would be low though.

As a family or settlement, you have more kids. Nothing says more production than more hands, even if they start out little. Once you have three generation going with the help of marrying friendly neighbors or "acquiring" a spouse by some means, you have a workforce that will start to have excess time.

Again we need to balance this out with some reason. If we need a settlement, then we make one with the required number of people or have had a massive die out by aggression, disease or some other method that has now makes for run down infrastructure, but a reason they might have saved the gasification plant and biodiesel production capacity even if they cannot really make a new one or repair the one they have once something major gives out.

My problem was if we assume one or more TL C or TL B communities that are either self sufficient or working together, how can I represent the data in the tool I am building. I think I have that worked out, I just need to implement my idea and see if it fixes my problem.

So are thinking a tree sided trade route? Farmers produce excess food (edibles) and wheat for alcohol or canola for biodiesel. Extractors, free from raising crops produce ethanol and biodiesel for drinking and running engines, manufactures, using the biodiesel, make tools and repair parts for the farmers and extractors; while consuming food and biodiesel.

[mmartin798]

I think I have found the most broken part of the economics section. It is energy. Trying to duplicate the examples finds that the table has ranges for things like fuel requirements and the area taken up by the power plant of that type. The Hope example just pull a couple numbers arbitrarily from the ranges. The Grinder example does so as well, plus it adds a factor for burning wood that is not mentioned anywhere. Makes building a spreadsheet for the calculations harder when there are numbers that just get made up as they go along.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Clearly, if you don't have the workers, you fall back to more agricultural work. You have a small oil press for your excess crops to make vegetable oil than can be used directly, or you can make some methanol via wood gasification and convert some of that vegetable oil into biodiesel. Yields would be low though.

As a family or settlement, you have more kids. Nothing says more production than more hands, even if they start out little. Once you have three generation going with the help of marrying friendly neighbors or "acquiring" a spouse by some means, you have a workforce that will start to have excess time.

Again we need to balance this out with some reason. If we need a settlement, then we make one with the required number of people or have had a massive die out by aggression, disease or some other method that has now makes for run down infrastructure, but a reason they might have saved the gasification plant and biodiesel production capacity even if they cannot really make a new one or repair the one they have once something major gives out.

My problem was if we assume one or more TL C or TL B communities that are either self sufficient or working together, how can I represent the data in the tool I am building. I think I have that worked out, I just need to implement my idea and see if it fixes my problem.

I think I may have to spend some time crunching numbers...... what is the minimum size for the lower tech levels to get out of pure agriculture.....

I feel that low tech levels and small populations is the general rule for a setting like the Morrow Project... A broken dystopian future needing a spark, mentors from the past that can make the minor repairs and get it all working again.

To many C, B, or A level cultures and it feels like the recovery is happening with the Project and their meddling would even be setting back progress. Their efforts would breakdown or disrupt events and stop progress as they unbalance cultures and alliances.

So I have to know what is the population minimums to have recovery.. to have extraction, manufacturing, energy production, to get civil services going again.

Is that 100 at Tech D? 500 at tech D?
I will have to school myself on Excel formulas again and get that automated then get some rendered.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I think I may have to spend some time crunching numbers...... what is the minimum size for the lower tech levels to get out of pure agriculture.....

I feel that low tech levels and small populations is the general rule for a setting like the Morrow Project... A broken dystopian future needing a spark, mentors from the past that can make the minor repairs and get it all working again.

To many C, B, or A level cultures and it feels like the recovery is happening with the Project and their meddling would even be setting back progress. Their efforts would breakdown or disrupt events and stop progress as they unbalance cultures and alliances.

So I have to know what is the population minimums to have recovery.. to have extraction, manufacturing, energy production, to get civil services going again.

Is that 100 at Tech D? 500 at tech D?
I will have to school myself on Excel formulas again and get that automated then get some rendered.

Is the assumption that they have the technical knowledge to advance and just need the resources in this calculation? It is perfectly possible to have a tech level G community of a thousand or more using simple plows and animal power to feed them all well and just not having the knowledge to advance their metallurgy to advance to steam power.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Any ideas on how this combination of intermixed inputs and output might be best represented for use?

First I note.... Your dependent on the surplus from agriculture to start anything.

This can only be reconciled as man hours or as kilograms of material.... Typically kilograms, to be converted, as feed stock for another process. Typically ethanol or biodiesel for fuel... to run tractors or generators.

Also, as Kilos for conversion as lumber or firewood to build shoring for mines or burn to generate steam.

The conversions, and all the different units is making this difficult.

Flow charts! Writers make flow charts..... practice your equations before doing this to people.

The other thing ......... You need to add up the man hours from labor NOT farming to do this work anyway..... it is one of your inputs for manufacture.......

This is sooooooo frustrating.