RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-20-2009, 10:03 AM
General Pain's Avatar
General Pain General Pain is offline
...not exactly open casket material
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Tiger City
Posts: 1,953
Send a message via MSN to General Pain
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK
I think the sheer scale of America is something that can come as a big shock to UK players and GM's. Here in NI we think its a long way from Belfast to Londonderry, which is about 90 miles. When I was in the states I got an eye opener when I met a guy who commuted from Boston to New York 3 days a week, which is 200 odd miles!
Commuting is hell, I actually have to move allmost 3 kilometers each working day.....and that's just one way....offcourse the way back home is usually longer since there is a lot of pubs/bars that distract me.
__________________
The Big Book of War - Twilight 2000 Filedump Site
Guns don't kill people,apes with guns do.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-21-2009, 07:24 PM
pmulcahy11b's Avatar
pmulcahy11b pmulcahy11b is online now
The Stat Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,843
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Pain
Commuting is hell, I actually have to move allmost 3 kilometers each working day.....and that's just one way....offcourse the way back home is usually longer since there is a lot of pubs/bars that distract me.
Ahh, you've never seen an American-style rush hour, have you?
__________________
All that stuff we know -- what if we're wrong? --Science Channel

Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-21-2009, 11:24 PM
jester jester is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Equaly at home in the water, the mountains and the desert.
Posts: 919
Default

American style rush hour!

I used to drive 1 of the worste commutes in the Nation, you leave at 430 no later to get to travel the 74 miles to Los Angeles and get there just before 0800, all stop go stop go hardly get out of first and second for most of the time bumper to bumper traffic.

And then one time in Japan I was A driver, we were stuck in traffic both the driver and myself dosed off, and when we woke, no traffic hadn't moved.
__________________
"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-21-2009, 11:49 PM
Mohoender's Avatar
Mohoender Mohoender is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Near Cannes, South of France
Posts: 1,653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jester
American style rush hour!

I used to drive 1 of the worste commutes in the Nation, you leave at 430 no later to get to travel the 74 miles to Los Angeles and get there just before 0800, all stop go stop go hardly get out of first and second for most of the time bumper to bumper traffic.

And then one time in Japan I was A driver, we were stuck in traffic both the driver and myself dosed off, and when we woke, no traffic hadn't moved.
I never understood how people could do that and that's true for every country.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-21-2009, 11:58 PM
pmulcahy11b's Avatar
pmulcahy11b pmulcahy11b is online now
The Stat Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,843
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jester
American style rush hour!

I used to drive 1 of the worste commutes in the Nation, you leave at 430 no later to get to travel the 74 miles to Los Angeles and get there just before 0800, all stop go stop go hardly get out of first and second for most of the time bumper to bumper traffic.

And then one time in Japan I was A driver, we were stuck in traffic both the driver and myself dosed off, and when we woke, no traffic hadn't moved.
I think the worst traffic snarls I've ever seen were in Baton Rouge, LA. However, the most insane driving I've ever seen was definitely in Seoul, Korea.
__________________
All that stuff we know -- what if we're wrong? --Science Channel

Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-22-2009, 02:54 AM
Targan's Avatar
Targan Targan is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,476
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
I think the worst traffic snarls I've ever seen were in Baton Rouge, LA. However, the most insane driving I've ever seen was definitely in Seoul, Korea.
You obviously haven't been in a car with my sister driving.
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-22-2009, 03:06 AM
Mohoender's Avatar
Mohoender Mohoender is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Near Cannes, South of France
Posts: 1,653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Targan
You obviously haven't been in a car with my sister driving.
She can't be as bad as my auto insurer (also a friend). That woman is having a car accident (mostly little bumps) something like every two weeks and if I had to get into her car for more than 2 miles, I'll be raising my life insurance.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-22-2009, 03:44 AM
TiggerCCW UK's Avatar
TiggerCCW UK TiggerCCW UK is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Posts: 663
Default

I have a friend who tries to make up for his lack of driving skills by driving faster - not the best plan in the world. He once drove me the wrong way round a roundabout because it was shorter!
__________________
Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-22-2009, 10:11 AM
jester jester is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Equaly at home in the water, the mountains and the desert.
Posts: 919
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
I think the worst traffic snarls I've ever seen were in Baton Rouge, LA. However, the most insane driving I've ever seen was definitely in Seoul, Korea.

Paul,

I am not talking a "traffic snarl." I am talking about the regular daily commute conditions. EVERY DAY!
__________________
"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-22-2009, 09:45 PM
weswood weswood is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baytown Tx
Posts: 550
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
However, the most insane driving I've ever seen was definitely in Seoul, Korea.
Uhhh. That may have been me. I once scraped the mirror of a 15 passenger van down the side of a bus because I didn't have 2" to spare on the other side. Only time I ever heard a pile of Marines scream like little girls. Pretty sure it was Ietawan (not sure of spelling) in '86.
__________________
Just because I'm on the side of angels doesn't mean I am one.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-23-2009, 04:12 PM
boogiedowndonovan's Avatar
boogiedowndonovan boogiedowndonovan is offline
Activist Rules Lawyer
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: norcal
Posts: 309
Default

Kato's probably gonna split the traffic posts out from the Red Star/Lone Star posts

Worst commute I ever had was when I lived in Los Angeles. First job I had out of college was at the Los Angeles International Airport and I lived in Santa Monica. By map, the distance is about 10 miles. But driving on the 405 freeway during rush hour, my commute was 45 minutes to an hour. city streets were just as bad since no one wanted to be stuck on the freeway.

worst (or craziest) driving I ever saw was in Taipei, Taiwan. Last time I was there was about 10 years ago, so things may have changed since. Tons of crazy scooter drivers battling with regular traffic on the streets, going against traffic, weaving in and out of lanes, lane splitting, ignoring stop signs and lights. Right of way pretty much was established by who got there first.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-23-2009, 04:27 PM
kato13's Avatar
kato13 kato13 is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chicago, Il USA
Posts: 3,337
Send a message via ICQ to kato13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan
Kato's probably gonna split the traffic posts out from the Red Star/Lone Star posts
You read my mind.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-24-2009, 12:37 AM
pmulcahy11b's Avatar
pmulcahy11b pmulcahy11b is online now
The Stat Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,843
Default

Here's another place bound to drive you crazy with traffic -- Washington DC. There are so many one-way streets, blocked-off streets (with no warning), traffic circles, traffic that's been re-routed at a moment's notice because some dignitary showed up -- you're constantly yelling something to yourself like "I can see the Lincoln Memorial right there, but I can't get to it!"

But you're instantly rewarded when you've found the Smithsonian and step inside!
__________________
All that stuff we know -- what if we're wrong? --Science Channel

Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-24-2009, 12:44 AM
pmulcahy11b's Avatar
pmulcahy11b pmulcahy11b is online now
The Stat Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,843
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by weswood
Uhhh. That may have been me. I once scraped the mirror of a 15 passenger van down the side of a bus because I didn't have 2" to spare on the other side. Only time I ever heard a pile of Marines scream like little girls. Pretty sure it was Ietawan (not sure of spelling) in '86.
If it's what I think you mean (the main shopping area in Seoul), it's Itaewon.

That wasn't long before I showed up in Korea. I got there in August of 88; just in time to be rewarded, since the Division Commander had bought up 2 tickets for every soldier in 2ID for the Seoul Summer Olympics in 1988. I got to see Volleyball between Japan and China (I've never seen so many TALL Asian women in one place in my life!) and Taekwon-do, which was a demonstration sport that year (the American lost the match when his nose got broken -- at least it looked like it). And my first Korean taxi ride. I showed the driver my ticket and-voooom!-from Yongsan to the outskirts of the city inside of 15 minutes! Korean taxi drivers -- they're INSANE!
__________________
All that stuff we know -- what if we're wrong? --Science Channel

Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-24-2009, 12:51 AM
JimmyRay73's Avatar
JimmyRay73 JimmyRay73 is offline
Player to be named later
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 61
Default

I want to thank you guys for reminding me how tame my daily commute is anymore.

For you guys in Europe who are trying to get a handle on the wide open spaces in America, I live in the "Greater Cleveland Metro Area" so it isn't exactly back country but I used to put an average of 150 miles a day on my car just driving to my girlfriend's house, taking her to school, then going to work, back to school, her home, then back to mine.

I used to take 80 to 100 mile drives just to clear my head when I was upset, and nobody thought that was unusual. Driving from Toledo Ohio to Pittsburgh Pennsylvania (3.5 to 4 hours each way) just to visit family members for a few hours and pick up a case of beer was a fairly regular practice. Last years gas prices curtailed such activities a bit, but we're still a nation of open spaces that people think nothing of crossing.

As for craziest driving, I spent a week in Boston learning how much I could love public transportation about a decade ago. Drivers in that town are just nuckin' futs if you catch my meaning. I will only drive in that city if the lives of myself and/or loved ones absolutely depends on it. Mind you this is coming from someone who has navigated Washington DC traffic using only two throttle positions (Idle and Wide-Open) in a Delta 88, and accomplished rally-driver maneuvers in a Ford Aerostar (the short-overhang version is remarkably stable in a drift when the rear seat sets are removed, and it is possible to catch air off a hill crest without crashing on landing believe it or not).
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-24-2009, 03:05 AM
TiggerCCW UK's Avatar
TiggerCCW UK TiggerCCW UK is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Posts: 663
Default

JimmyRay, I live about 9 miles out of Belfast, a 20-30 minute drive to work depending on traffic and people think I live a long way from work
__________________
Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-24-2009, 05:04 AM
Mohoender's Avatar
Mohoender Mohoender is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Near Cannes, South of France
Posts: 1,653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyRay73
For you guys in Europe who are trying to get a handle on the wide open spaces in America, I live in the "Greater Cleveland Metro Area" so it isn't exactly back country but I used to put an average of 150 miles a day on my car just driving to my girlfriend's house, taking her to school, then going to work, back to school, her home, then back to mine.
That one doesn't count. I was doing the same not that long ago and it's entirely up to us.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-24-2009, 05:14 AM
Mohoender's Avatar
Mohoender Mohoender is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Near Cannes, South of France
Posts: 1,653
Default

Large spaces are a point but sometimes they are not the only one. When my mother was leaving in Portugal, we used to commute about 3 times a week from Porto to her place in the wine region. That was only 60 miles but, until 10 years ago, it represented a 3 hours drive (only one way) because of trucks, bad roads and mountains. Today, the traveling time has been reduced to 1h30. From time to time you wouldn't get there until the next day as the road had fell down the Douro River or down the cliff (that is still happening today). I wouldn't do that anymore.

My wife is working 10 miles from our place and it takes between 20 and 30 minutes to get there (mountain roads).
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-24-2009, 07:59 AM
chico20854's Avatar
chico20854 chico20854 is offline
Your Friendly 92Y20!
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 337
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
Here's another place bound to drive you crazy with traffic -- Washington DC. There are so many one-way streets, blocked-off streets (with no warning), traffic circles, traffic that's been re-routed at a moment's notice because some dignitary showed up -- you're constantly yelling something to yourself like "I can see the Lincoln Memorial right there, but I can't get to it!"

But you're instantly rewarded when you've found the Smithsonian and step inside!
There is a reason I take the subway to and from work and only drive downtown after dark on weekends. And Jason doesn't drive at all. Its much easier to get around on foot, and frequently faster. We constantly rate in the worst 2 or 3 traffic areas in the US.

The frustration with the Smithsonian is that there is too much to see!
__________________
I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-28-2009, 09:29 AM
Littlearmies Littlearmies is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 108
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyRay73
I want to thank you guys for reminding me how tame my daily commute is anymore.

As for craziest driving, I spent a week in Boston learning how much I could love public transportation about a decade ago. Drivers in that town are just nuckin' futs if you catch my meaning. I will only drive in that city if the lives of myself and/or loved ones absolutely depends on it.
Coming from Europe and having driven in America quite a lot I usually tell my friends that Boston is the most European of cities for driving I found LA and most American cities safe but dull to drive around - all those lanes and directions, nobody cutting in...it was like Stepford Wives driving on the surface streets. I liked the freeways though (I enjoyed the "every man for himself" attitude displayed there) and can't see why Europe doesn't bring in Right Turn On Red.

My commute is a 75 minute tube ride across London - which is an excellent way of working your way through a good book.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-28-2009, 09:54 AM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,213
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyRay73

As for craziest driving, I spent a week in Boston learning how much I could love public transportation about a decade ago. Drivers in that town are just nuckin' futs if you catch my meaning. I will only drive in that city if the lives of myself and/or loved ones absolutely depends on it.
You realize, of course, that Boston is laid out in a pattern to make one insane? Where else do *5* streets meet, and they call it a "Square?"

As for DC, I haven't been since before I learned to drive, but I fully intend to take the train next time I go, and say the heck with driving or parking!

On a similar note, walking around downtown Sacramento is really nice-- that was last year's vacation.
__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-28-2009, 11:16 AM
jester jester is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Equaly at home in the water, the mountains and the desert.
Posts: 919
Default

Yeah, you went walking and spend a week trying to find your way back

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adm.Lee
You realize, of course, that Boston is laid out in a pattern to make one insane? Where else do *5* streets meet, and they call it a "Square?"

As for DC, I haven't been since before I learned to drive, but I fully intend to take the train next time I go, and say the heck with driving or parking!

On a similar note, walking around downtown Sacramento is really nice-- that was last year's vacation.
__________________
"God bless America, the land of the free, but only so long as it remains the home of the brave."
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-28-2009, 11:44 AM
Mohoender's Avatar
Mohoender Mohoender is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Near Cannes, South of France
Posts: 1,653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adm.Lee
You realize, of course, that Boston is laid out in a pattern to make one insane? Where else do *5* streets meet, and they call it a "Square?"
Any city in Europe (almost). That's why you can see so many americans turning around like ghosts when they are coming as tourists. Even GPS don't always find their way around.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-28-2009, 11:52 AM
Mohoender's Avatar
Mohoender Mohoender is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Near Cannes, South of France
Posts: 1,653
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jester
Yeah, you went walking and spend a week trying to find your way back
Found my way around the first time I went to Boston as if I had always been living there. It was much more difficult in New York.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-29-2009, 07:35 AM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,324
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adm.Lee
You realize, of course, that Boston is laid out in a pattern to make one insane? Where else do *5* streets meet, and they call it a "Square?"
Only 5? There's a place in Newcastle, Australia, with the lovely name "nine ways", and yes, I can confirm it really does have 9 different roads you can take all jammed into one large and messy intersection...

Newcastle, for those who don't know, is probably the largest city in the country that's not actually a state capital. Heavily industrial mainly in steel and coal mining.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-29-2009, 11:04 AM
Grimace Grimace is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Montana
Posts: 287
Send a message via ICQ to Grimace Send a message via AIM to Grimace Send a message via Yahoo to Grimace
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adm.Lee
You realize, of course, that Boston is laid out in a pattern to make one insane? Where else do *5* streets meet, and they call it a "Square?"

As for DC, I haven't been since before I learned to drive, but I fully intend to take the train next time I go, and say the heck with driving or parking!

On a similar note, walking around downtown Sacramento is really nice-- that was last year's vacation.
LOL. Funny you should mention places where 5 streets meet. We've got two such areas in my town. One of them in appropriately names "Malfunction Junction". Guess we don't mince words here. If it's screwed up, we'll call it screwed up.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-29-2009, 11:24 AM
Targan's Avatar
Targan Targan is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,476
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimace
Guess we don't mince words here. If it's screwed up, we'll call it screwed up.
I'm an Australian. We virtually worship bluntness
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-29-2009, 05:43 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,324
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Targan
I'm an Australian. We virtually worship bluntness
And usually in as few words as possible.
"It's f....d"
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-05-2010, 08:25 AM
headquarters's Avatar
headquarters headquarters is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Norways weather beaten coasts
Posts: 1,825
Default New NPC

Won-Kar-Park
age : 45
civillian occupaton: taxidriver
rank: cpl

Scores : 5 , 4 ,7
3 , 4, 6

Skills : Wheeled vehicle : 7
Observation : 5
Melee : 4
rifle :2
swim : 1
thrown :1
english : 2
etc

Won has driven a taxi in Seoul most of his life,including his boyhood when he used to ride shotgun with his father , and take the wheel when dad feel asleep.
Although a competent driver ,Won is reckless to an extent that most passengers find lifethreathening - all the time. He has yet to loose a bet concerning getting his Hyundai to specific point in Seoul on a narrow time limit.Even if this often entails speeding down lanes with opposing traffic.

"It is all calculated risk" Won says with pride in his voice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
If it's what I think you mean (the main shopping area in Seoul), it's Itaewon.

That wasn't long before I showed up in Korea. I got there in August of 88; just in time to be rewarded, since the Division Commander had bought up 2 tickets for every soldier in 2ID for the Seoul Summer Olympics in 1988. I got to see Volleyball between Japan and China (I've never seen so many TALL Asian women in one place in my life!) and Taekwon-do, which was a demonstration sport that year (the American lost the match when his nose got broken -- at least it looked like it). And my first Korean taxi ride. I showed the driver my ticket and-voooom!-from Yongsan to the outskirts of the city inside of 15 minutes! Korean taxi drivers -- they're INSANE!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-05-2010, 09:58 AM
chico20854's Avatar
chico20854 chico20854 is offline
Your Friendly 92Y20!
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Washington, DC area
Posts: 337
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by headquarters View Post
Won-Kar-Park
age : 45
civillian occupaton: taxidriver
rank: cpl

Scores : 5 , 4 ,7
3 , 4, 6

Skills : Wheeled vehicle : 7
Observation : 5
Melee : 4
rifle :2
swim : 1
thrown :1
english : 2
etc

Won has driven a taxi in Seoul most of his life,including his boyhood when he used to ride shotgun with his father , and take the wheel when dad feel asleep.
Although a competent driver ,Won is reckless to an extent that most passengers find lifethreathening - all the time. He has yet to loose a bet concerning getting his Hyundai to specific point in Seoul on a narrow time limit.Even if this often entails speeding down lanes with opposing traffic.

"It is all calculated risk" Won says with pride in his voice.
Is this General Pain's new PC?
I hope so!!!
__________________
I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Red Star Lone Star - Ship Identification Question johnfrum Twilight 2000 Forum 14 06-26-2009 12:40 PM
Manual vs Automatic (Split from Driving a BTR) pmulcahy11b Twilight 2000 Forum 45 04-21-2009 12:44 PM
Driving a BTR Raellus Twilight 2000 Forum 9 04-12-2009 04:09 PM
Red Star, Lone Star Caradhras Twilight 2000 Forum 12 03-20-2009 09:48 AM
Kangaroos (Split from Red Star, Lone Star) Mohoender Twilight 2000 Forum 13 03-20-2009 02:23 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.