RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-09-2011, 09:39 AM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,176
Default Thinking about Intiative

So, last night I was thinking about initiative in both v1 and v2.0. I can't recall either ever causing major problems in play, but I have found reasons to dislike each. Have any of you dropped them for something else?



- I have vague memories of referee me having to track everyone's hesitations for them in v1. I could be wrong on that.

- I have stronger memories of v2 groups using the initiative XP system to jack up their scores, so that they could wipe out platoons without a scratch on themselves. That, of course, won't be an issue in a con game, but any PCs with really high initiatives could become combat monsters that will overshadow the others at the table.

I'm planning a convention game someday, and fearing that players might get stuck on these more-complex-than-usual systems.

- At the last few convention games I've played at, the ref has simply ignored the RAW initiative rules and gone around the table. It worked, but it seemed too simplistic to my internal rules-lawyer.

Just reverting to Agility order, or rolling for it seems easy. I also like the Savage Worlds rule of dealing from a deck of cards, high cards go first.

Opinions, thoughts, concerns?
__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-09-2011, 05:53 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Blood soaked, axe wielding psycho
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,053
Send a message via Yahoo to Legbreaker
Default

V1.0 is clunky with it's CUF and hesitations, but it can work if the players help out.
V2.0 tends to fall down only when low Initiative characters fail to take advantage of repetative actions - the ability to lay down cover fire over an area for long periods of time without stopping for example. Low initiative characters in my opinion are best utilised by being assigned belt fed or other high capacity weapons. Note also that a low initiative character conducting repetative actions actually goes before high initiative characters which, providing it's a sensible action (such as covering a doorway with fire) can really restrict the high initiative characters options.
V2.2 evens things out significiantly by allowing everyone to act every turn but giving high Initiative an extra action. In my opinion it levels the playing field a bit too much.

Another issue which in my experience seems to be ingnored almost constantly is the effect of injuries. If a character, any character is injured by anything nastier than a sharp stick, chances are they're doing NOTHING for at LEAST the next round and probably much longer. During this time, the enemy has free reign to do anything they want completely unopposed, including hitting them again, and again, and again, and again. Grenades and other area effect weapons are great for knocking down and opponent and keeping them there without having to be too accurate. Three barely skilled NPCs with a handful of hand grenades each are going to take apart even a highly skilled and high initiative group of PCs if they bunch up too much (as most seem to do) while taking virtually no casulaties themselves.

Naturally, switched on PCs can do exactly the same - take out everyone with explosives.

An Australian infantryman in the Korean War was renown for acutally putting this game rule into practise even before roleplaying was a pipedream. He rarely fired his rifle but relied instead on the sandbag of handgrenades he carried everywhere. Apparently you always knew where he was - just had to listen for the explosion every few moments...
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-09-2011, 07:54 PM
leonpoi leonpoi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 161
Default

Adm.Lee, I don't think you're alone thinking about initiative, and Legbreaker's summary pretty much echoes my thoughts.

There is one thing Iíll say about the v2.2 system; that it takes all of the accounting out of the system and therefore speeds things up. A while back I ran a session with 5 PCs (who had not played 2.2 before) in a firefight with about 10 marauders. There were explosions, automatic fire, vehicles, all kinds of things and the combat went so smoothly and felt very intense because the initiative system didnít get in the way of the action.

Having said that, itís got its problems Ė these are the big ones that I see.
1) Everyone pretty much gets one action per turn (the level playing field)
2) We had one PC with Init 7 = 2 actions, and he clearly dominated Ė it just didnít feel right that he got to do twice as many things Ė the step change is just too sharp from 1 action to 2 actions.

To get around this Iíd proposed a hybrid between v1 and v2.2 where characters got 1 action per 6 turns (phase) plus an extra action for every Init 4 or greater. i.e. a Init 5 character would get 8 actions in 6 turns. This would step up the granularity of actions. I never got to test this though because I moved country and havenít played since. It would require book keeping though over a phase (which I would have handled with chips/counters), but at least you wouldnít need to keep track of whatís been repeated. Most NPCs would have Inits <4, so it would only need book keeping for harder NPC fights.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-09-2011, 08:22 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Blood soaked, axe wielding psycho
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,053
Send a message via Yahoo to Legbreaker
Default

I quite like that idea actually. The way 2.2 gives an additional acton in every 5 second round just doesn't sit well with me - can a person really run two lots of 30 metres in the same five seconds everyone else only gets half the distance?
Although a little cumbersome, I've always prefered the 2.0 method, BUT players and GM must use repetative actions to make it work properly AND be aware and implement (can't stress enough) injury restrictions. Only really penalises a character in the initial stages of combat, where you'd expect to see low initiative characters hesitating. Once they get into their groove and training takes over, they're still at a bit of a disadvantage (they can't change actions other than stop until their next scheduled action), but they can still be effective.
Although the rules say it should be the same action from five second phase to five second phase, I would expand it to the same general action such as fish out grenade, pull pin and throw, repeat, or aim, fire, aim, fire. Both these examples should by the rules take two actions of five seconds duration to complete.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-10-2011, 02:14 AM
kcdusk's Avatar
kcdusk kcdusk is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 367
Default

"Initiative" is one of those polorising topics.

I think most people agree it needs to be quick, give some advantage to "battle tested" characters and be realistic, if possible.

We have to remember though that initiative isnt just "who can draw" first or fastest, western style. Its who "acts" first. Taking action under fire is as much "courage" as it is "fast twitch fibers". It can be compared to sportsman where they test well (benchpress, 40 yard dash, vertical leap) but simply dont "play the game very well".

I think initiative also represents "dumb luck" to some degree. Even the best operators get surprised or caught off guard from time to time. In my own system i tried to callibrate "initiative" so that a novice PC who rolled a "6" would win a "draw" verse a high level character who rolled a "1" on a D6 (effectively a 1/36 chance for the novice to win).

I like weapon choice to have an impact on characters. So i try to use weapon "bulk" in determining initiative (rifles at a disadvantage to pistals).

I like each combat round to be different, so i am OK with player die rolls to go towards who acts first in each combat round.

Coolness under fire and hesitation V1.0 style was a good idea, that doesnt work in practice.

I agree that injuries are under sold.

I think everyone has their own homebrew initiative to reflect how they view it. All you can do is take other peoples ideas into consideration when weighting your own system.
__________________
"Beep me if the apocolypse comes" - Buffy Sommers
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-10-2011, 03:33 AM
B.T.'s Avatar
B.T. B.T. is offline
Registered Kraut
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Ruhrgebiet, Germany
Posts: 250
Default

The idea to take the bulk-rating and subtract it from the Initiative seems to be a good way, to ballance things out a bit. To my mind, it works.

But there is a point, where I'm not sure, if I understand the rules properly: PCs get rewarded special points to increase the Initiative (In v2.2, that is). But what is the highest possible value for Initiative? Can a PC build up Initiative-values that exceed 7?
__________________
I'm from Germany ... PM me, if I was not correct. I don't want to upset anyone!

"IT'S A FREAKIN GAME, PEOPLE!"; Weswood, 5-12-2012
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-10-2011, 10:09 AM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,176
Default

I had forgotten/didn't realize that v2.2 had tweaked Initiative. I think it's the static nature of Initiative that rankles me most-- an Init 5 PC will always have the drop on all Init 4 NPCs. Maybe I play too many other games, but that rubs me wrong.

Repetitive actions are very useful, but when the high-initiative PCs are staging an ambush, mid- to lower-initiative NPCs not covering areas get hosed.

I agree the injury penalties are key. I remember using them in my later games of v.2, but I wonder how much the players played along?

I was thinking about 2 different things, one for each system.
1. For v1, I was thinking of giving each PC a set of 6 counters (I play wargames, I have lots of two-sided counters), one side labelled "hesitate" on one side, and "action" on the other. They could lay them or stack them on the table, and arrange them how they liked, as long as the proper number of hesitations were showing. Each action round, they move down the line, hesitating or acting as needed. If they got hit, or some other thig came along to change things, they could flip the necessary changes.

2. For v2, I clicked on the idea of the deck of playing cards, as in Savage Worlds. Deal each PC a hand of cards equal to their initiative. The GM gets a hand for each batch of NPCs (like, one hand for a leader, another hand for the followers). Then, go down through the cards in descending order (Aces high). If someone gets hit and has to take an initiative penalty, they give up their next 1 or 3 cards, and won't get so many next hand.
- This would scramble the order of actions all over the place, so it's not always the 6's going first. They'll get more actions (or, more decision points), but not always first.
- Repetitive actions (and other conditions) would still apply, that character would act as usual, discarding cards as they came up, unless they change action, of course.
- Jokers could be ignored. They could also be wild, allowing someone a lucky break, allowing them to interrupt someone else's action if they pleased. That might be too random?
- Tied cards (i.e. I have an 8, you have an 8) could be resolved in suit order, or Agility or weapon Bulk. Maybe the GM could waffle on that, as he desires.

This was one of those things that came to me in the middle of the night. Could be a good idea, could suck.
__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-10-2011, 11:45 AM
simonmark6 simonmark6 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Swansea, South Wales, UK
Posts: 373
Default

I think that high Initiative PCs or NPCs do have the advantage in most senses. In ambush situations those being ambushed usually do end up getting hosed. This would happen even if a group of low initiative NPCs ambush a bunch of PCs, the NPCs would have been conducting continuous "overwatch" actions and thus it would be they that initiated the combat.

After that, lots of the PCs are going to be injured and dropping in initiative or able to fight back in the hail of beaten fire and repeated actions. People get creamed in ambushes, that's why they are so popular. The rules work fine, you just have to apply them.

If you want a little variety, add the odd high initiative novice NPC to the mix to represent the up and coming young gun or guy with hair trigger reflexes, the BYB even suggests this to explain Monk's high initiative for a relatively inexperienced combatant.

If you are going to the bother of tracking things minutely, you might want to just roll for initiative for NPCs instead of using the book numbers. Military NPCs would get a straight d6, Elites get a 5 or a 6+1. Non-military would get d6/2 or whatever you deem correct.

As for bulk, I generally use it either as a penalty in CQB situations or as a tie-breaker between equal initiatives. To refine it I might assign an initiative penalty to characters who are using a weapon whose bulk is higher than their Strength and Constitution averaged to represent that it is too big and awkward for the person carrying it. Even that seems necessarily complicated.

In conclusion, I believe that the initiative system is fine as long as you make your NPCs fight sensibly and use the wound rules strictly.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-10-2011, 05:43 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Blood soaked, axe wielding psycho
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,053
Send a message via Yahoo to Legbreaker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonmark6 View Post
In conclusion, I believe that the initiative system is fine as long as you make your NPCs fight sensibly and use the wound rules strictly.
Exactly right. An Initative 6 character isn't going to stay that fast very long in a proper combat. The first "scratch" wound will cause them to loose an action. The second "scratch" or first decent injury (more than half the hit location's capacity) is going to drop a whole point of initiative as well as make them sit out the rest of the turn (30 seconds). Meanwhile the enemy has free reign to plug away at them.

Add on top of that a "serious" (more than capacity) injury and the character has lost 3 points of Initiative AND the use of the limb. If that's a leg, they're not walking. If an arm, they're not using it to steady their weapon. If it's abdomen or chest, they're not doing ANYTHING and if it's the head, they're probably already unconscious.
A serious wound also cuts Strength in half. This means the character is rather unlikely to be able to move at all, even if it's an arm injury, due to their suddenly reduced load carrying capacity. They're also MUCH less able to control their weapon - they may have been able to fire off say 3 single shots before injury without recoil penalty, now they might manage just one.

And then there's "critical" wounds (x2 capacity). Cut intiative again and if yourre lucky enough to still have an effective 1, EVERY action requires a roll to stay conscious as well as all the previous penalties. A critical head wound means you're dead and given the average head hit capacity is around 10, a single bullet could well put you down for good.

Armour helps, but the wearer still suffers some injury even if the bullet doesn't penetrate. The first round will inflict a "scratch", and the second a "slight" even if both rounds are nothing more than a .22LR. What armour will do is allow you to be injured more times before decending further down the one way slide into combat ineffectiveness.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-10-2011, 05:50 PM
leonpoi leonpoi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 161
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonmark6 View Post
As for bulk, I generally use it either as a penalty in CQB situations or as a tie-breaker between equal initiatives. To refine it I might assign an initiative penalty to characters who are using a weapon whose bulk is higher than their Strength and Constitution averaged to represent that it is too big and awkward for the person carrying it. Even that seems necessarily complicated.
This is basically the approach that I use.

And just curious; we have a growing consensus that the Init system is fine but which version to you use, 1, 2 or 2.2?

Last edited by leonpoi; 08-10-2011 at 05:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-10-2011, 07:04 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Blood soaked, axe wielding psycho
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,053
Send a message via Yahoo to Legbreaker
Default

Any system isn't perfect and all of them work to some degree - could be a simple coin toss to see who goes first right up to the complex calculations and player decision making required in the Phoenix Command system.
For pure fast paced action, 2.2 is probably the better of the three, but for gritty detail, 1.0 is the way to go (especially the realistic healing times compared to 2.x). 2.0 appears to be a decent balance of the two, provided the rules are used in full.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-19-2012, 05:32 PM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,176
Default Thread necromancy... using chips?

I had another thought about this as I prep for a v1 game at Origins this year. I just wrapped up a pair of Savage Worlds games last weekend, where we use poker chips (red=wound, white=shaken, blue=benny) a lot.

My thought is to hand each player 6 chips, white ones for their hesitations, blue ones for actions. Say, someone with a CUF 2 has 1 hesitation, so he gets 5 blues and 1 white. Each round, as I the GM call it, each player advances a chip to show whether he's hesitating or acting, and can name the action. When they get hit, I substitute red chips for additional hesitations caused by wounds.

Opinions?

My apologies if I'm not clear, I'm short on sleep this week, and long on red wine tonight.
__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-20-2012, 12:22 AM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Blood soaked, axe wielding psycho
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,053
Send a message via Yahoo to Legbreaker
Default

I had a V1 character once with CUF of 8. How's that going to work with 6 chips?
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-20-2012, 12:26 PM
James Langham James Langham is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 671
Default

I like that as a method but a bit complex for larger fights for the poor GM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adm.Lee View Post
I had another thought about this as I prep for a v1 game at Origins this year. I just wrapped up a pair of Savage Worlds games last weekend, where we use poker chips (red=wound, white=shaken, blue=benny) a lot.

My thought is to hand each player 6 chips, white ones for their hesitations, blue ones for actions. Say, someone with a CUF 2 has 1 hesitation, so he gets 5 blues and 1 white. Each round, as I the GM call it, each player advances a chip to show whether he's hesitating or acting, and can name the action. When they get hit, I substitute red chips for additional hesitations caused by wounds.

Opinions?

My apologies if I'm not clear, I'm short on sleep this week, and long on red wine tonight.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-20-2012, 02:35 PM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,176
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
I had a V1 character once with CUF of 8. How's that going to work with 6 chips?
Don't have my rules in front of me, but IIRC, hesitations = 1/2 of CUF.
__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-21-2012, 11:54 AM
Badbru Badbru is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 62
Default

I remember back in the day myself and my players hated rolling for the initiative stat during character generation. A high result could make a REMF into a combat god and a low result could kill off any enthusiasm for a previously considered decent character. Everyone hated the arbitrary nature of it the most I think.
So I devised an alternative based on character stats.
It went something like this...
Add your Agility stat, to represent speed of action, to your Intelligence stat, to represent speed of thought, giving you a number from 0 to 20 as stats are 2d6-2. Divide by 4, rounding down if civilian and up if military. Add any career based additions to initiative as noted in the bonus section of careers.

Most characters ended up with 3 or 4. One had 5 from memory due to a career bonus.

And as allways, remember it's a game with the goal being for your players to have fun.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-21-2012, 08:51 PM
Targan's Avatar
Targan Targan is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,443
Default

I like that houserule, Badbru. Clever yet simple.
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-21-2012, 10:13 PM
leonpoi leonpoi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 161
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonmark6 View Post
As for bulk, I generally use it either as a penalty in CQB situations or as a tie-breaker between equal initiatives. To refine it I might assign an initiative penalty to characters who are using a weapon whose bulk is higher than their Strength and Constitution averaged to represent that it is too big and awkward for the person carrying it. Even that seems necessarily complicated.
.
You could use it simply as an initiative penalty for situations when shooting in confined spaces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badbru View Post
I remember back in the day myself and my players hated rolling for the initiative stat during character generation. A high result could make a REMF into a combat god and a low result could kill off any enthusiasm for a previously considered decent character. Everyone hated the arbitrary nature of it the most I think.
So I devised an alternative based on character stats.
It went something like this...
Add your Agility stat, to represent speed of action, to your Intelligence stat, to represent speed of thought, giving you a number from 0 to 20 as stats are 2d6-2. Divide by 4, rounding down if civilian and up if military. Add any career based additions to initiative as noted in the bonus section of careers.

Most characters ended up with 3 or 4. One had 5 from memory due to a career bonus.

And as allways, remember it's a game with the goal being for your players to have fun.
I had always interpreted initiative to be not so much speed of action but coolness under fire / decisiveness. You could argue that higher Init characters go first because they have observed and acted faster because they are combat trained and used to getting shot at. A super-smart yoga instructor may have high Agl and Int but may freak out when shooting and getting show at. It's not a bad idea but I don't agree with it. Having said that I did change Init in character generation to give a tighter spread, especially for military characters (just a tweak of dice roll, can't remember details) and low Init characters will move up after a firefights anyway (I had a PC start with Init 1, and even using the squared Init value to advance that's 2-4 combats to get 2).

Having read this post I see poker chips or something like that to be very useful, no matter what version or house-rule you use.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-22-2012, 01:14 AM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Blood soaked, axe wielding psycho
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,053
Send a message via Yahoo to Legbreaker
Default

A high initiative character in 2.0 goes after lower initiative characters in latter phases of the 30 second turn. This I believe is to model their ability to respond to others actions accordingly.

Even a seriously low initiative character (V2.0), or one with a horrendous CUF (V1) isn't completely screwed though. Provided the player uses their heads, and the other players take their limitations into account, the slow characters can be very, very effective.

For example, if a 2.0 Initiative 1 character is given the teams machinegun (belt fed thereby limiting the need for reloading), they can carry out "repetitive actions" - continue the same action they were doing which commenced on their last "actionable" phase. This could be crawling, observing, aiming, or laying down suppressive fire. If aiming, they can use opportunity fire at anyone entering the area they're aiming at.
When I'm GMing, I allow them to continue a sequence of actions no longer than 2 phases (10 seconds) which may be firing a GL, reloading, firing again, over and over (without taking time to aim), providing the additional rounds are out and ready.
Also, one of the best uses is Loader for a crew served weapon (tank gun, artillery piece, assistant machinegunner) where a higher initiative character can give them direct commands and artificially raise their initiative a point or two while ever communication is possible between them. Loading an 81mm mortar may even be considered a form of repetitive action.

In V1.0, a high CUF character could be employed in a similar manner.

2.2 significantly reduced the difference between initiative "steps" with everyone acting in the same 5 second turn/phase/whatever. It's my belief this was partly done as many players and GMs didn't understand how powerful repetition could be.

Another issue is wounds and how they impact initiative. This is an area which in my experience is usually completely overlooked by players and GMs alike.
It only takes a light wound to effectively prevent a character from acting for a while. An opposing force throwing/firing grenades can absolutely DEVASTATE a unit, even without anyone being hit by shrapnel. Just the concussive force alone can prevent anyone acting, allowing their opponents to close at their leisure and kill them.

This is why infantrymen are trained to keep a decent spacing between them - to stop more than one, or at worst two people being in the blast radius of any one grenade. It also takes next to no skill to throw a grenade with effect - near enough is usually good enough.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-22-2012, 05:29 AM
leonpoi leonpoi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 161
Default

How does a high initiative character provide bonuses? That sounds interesting
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-22-2012, 07:53 AM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Blood soaked, axe wielding psycho
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,053
Send a message via Yahoo to Legbreaker
Default

Simply by telling the low initiative character what to do in simple and quick terms and perhaps slapping them over the back of the head when they don't move fast enough.

Basically, if the low initiative character is willing to do EXACTLY what they're told without thinking about it, then I'd allow them to act quicker than normal. Once they're unable to receive immediate commands, their own Initiative kicks back in (they have to start thinking and acting for themselves again).

The penalty for the high initiative character is they can't fire their own weapon, speak on the radio, etc while directing the other character. They could however aim, observe for targets, or similar activities while talking.

Note that I'd only allow this if both were part of the same gun/vehicle crew or No1 machinegunner/AGL operator and their assistant. This bonus would not apply to individual actions such as moving, taking cover or firing a personal weapon.

This doesn't work very well for 2.2 though as there's only a second or two difference between an Initiative 6 and Initiative 1 character acting/reacting - just not enough time to give and receive commands.
It also wouldn't apply to somebody who's suffered Initiative penalties due to wounds.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-24-2012, 07:51 AM
leonpoi leonpoi is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 161
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Simply by telling the low initiative character what to do in simple and quick terms and perhaps slapping them over the back of the head when they don't move fast enough.

Basically, if the low initiative character is willing to do EXACTLY what they're told without thinking about it, then I'd allow them to act quicker than normal. Once they're unable to receive immediate commands, their own Initiative kicks back in (they have to start thinking and acting for themselves again).

The penalty for the high initiative character is they can't fire their own weapon, speak on the radio, etc while directing the other character. They could however aim, observe for targets, or similar activities while talking.

Note that I'd only allow this if both were part of the same gun/vehicle crew or No1 machinegunner/AGL operator and their assistant. This bonus would not apply to individual actions such as moving, taking cover or firing a personal weapon.

This doesn't work very well for 2.2 though as there's only a second or two difference between an Initiative 6 and Initiative 1 character acting/reacting - just not enough time to give and receive commands.
It also wouldn't apply to somebody who's suffered Initiative penalties due to wounds.
OK I see, but it would work well enough for my house rule where characters got 1 action per 6 turns (phase) plus an extra action for every Init 4 or greater (which is kind of like saying there are 12 turns in a phase and the default position for Initiative 3 or below is 6 hesitations and less hesitations for 4+).
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-24-2016, 09:37 PM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,176
Default Thread necromancy again!

http://angrydm.com/2013/09/popcorn-i...a-stupid-name/

So, my brain was wandering again the other night, as I sometimes come back to T2k and initiative systems. I suspect if I played more often than once a year, I'd get to like the rules more than I already do, but....

The above is a quick way to determine initiative in a combat round: the player whose turn it is picks the next one to go, PC or NPC. I wonder about mixing it with v1 or v2 initiative. Say, in v1, someone has 3 hesitations and 3 actions in a turn. Give them 3 chances to act across the turn. Want to do all 3 of yours in a row? Great, but you're giving up any chance at a later action. Want to waitt & see what the enemy's up to? OK. Tracking it might be nightmarish, but I may fall back on using poker chips again-- everyone (or group of NPCs) gets a set of chips, which they toss in when they take their action(s) for each round. This adaptation is completely half-baked and untested.

Opinions?
__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-25-2016, 11:36 AM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Default Initiative And Time

I liked the "Tick" system that TW2K13 used but it proved too complex for use during the game. I tried to simplify it by reducing "Ticks" to OODA + a 1D10 roll and capping "Ticks" at 20. This created a fixed time for each "Tick" of 1/4 (0.25) of a second. This worked MUCH better but was still cumbersome in play so I simplified again. Now I use an Initiative system based on 1 Second increments for a 6 Second round (but this will work for a 5 second round too). This system is much more manageable and speeds up play. It is also very easy to implement. However many seconds something takes in the real world, that's how long it takes in the system. I do make a few changes to the Initiative as well as rates of fire. Here are my changes (please note that I use TW2K13's Coolness system):

Max Initiative is 6. To this, you also add a roll of 1D6 for a total of 2 to 12 BEFORE Modifiers. My Modifiers are:
Successful Tactics Roll (see below): +1
Surprise: -10
Light Wound (equivalent to a scratch)/Lighty Fatigued: -1
Moderate Wound (equivalent to a slight wound)/Moderately Fatigued: -2
Serious Wound (as V2.2)/Seriouly Fatigued: -4
Critical Wound (as V2.2)/Critically Fatigued: -8
Deadly Wound: No Actions Allowed
Exceeded Basic Bulk in Equipment (STA X 5): -1
Exceeded Marching Bulk (STA X 7): -2
At Maximum Allowable Bulk: (STA X 10): -3
Moderate Encumbrance: -1
Heavily Encumbered: -2
Overburdened: -4
Coolness Under Fire Exceeded: -1 PER POINT OVER COOLNESS
In Supression Effect: -1 per round in "burst"

I use 10 "Initiative Steps" just like those in V2.2 BUT each Step represents 1 second of time. The added steps above 6 seconds represent the fact that some people can perform an action faster than others. A person acting on Step 7 ISN'T ACTUALLY 1 SECOND FASTER THAN THE WORLD, He just performs a 1-second action in 0.85 seconds. So rather than complicate the system, I just added Steps. These Initiative Steps are calculated below.

Roll + Modifiers Is................Initiative Step Is
1 ............................................ 1
2 ............................................ 2
3 ............................................ 3
4 ............................................ 4
5 ............................................ 5
6 ............................................ 6
7 or 8 ...................................... 7
9 to 11 ..................................... 8
12 to 15 ................................... 9
16+ ....................................... 10

As you can see, the higher Steps are seldom used. I incorporated them for fast animals (cobras, rattlesnakes), Robotic Devices and Aliens/Supernatural Beings (I play Dark Conspiracy too). I use a Step Sheet divided into 10 blocks with the roll results in the right margin. I simply mark everyone's starting Initiative on this sheet before I begin the Declaration Phase.

The Declaration Phase:

I break my Initiative into two parts or "Phases" as well. The Declaration Phase where everyone tells me what they are doing (from highest to lowest Initiative Score) and I note this on my Step sheet, while doing the appropriate math for each action and noting WHERE that action will occur in the Steps of the Resolution Phase.
To determine when an action WILL OCCUR, just subtract how long it takes in seconds from the character's (or NPC's) Rolled Initiative. If this number is NEGATIVE, note that number on this turn sheet and tell the player he will resolve his action NEXT round. I keep 3 Step Sheets. One for the previous round, one for the current round, and one for the next round.

I also have any qualifying players roll their Tactics skills at the start of the Declaration Phase. Any who succeed may Declare LAST even though they may act FIRST in the Resolution Phase. This represents them "getting inside" their opponent's OODA Loop and "figuring out" what their opponent's planned action was. An Outstanding Success on Tactics grants a +1 bonus to Initiative a well.

Resolution Phase:

This is the phase where actions are resolved Initiative Step by Initiative Step with each Step being roughly 1 Second. Differing actions take different times. As noted above, these times are subtracted from the character's (or NPC's) Rolled Initiative. Some sample times are:

Attack, Point Blank or Short Range: 1 Second
Attack, Medium Range: 2 Seconds
Attack, Long Range: 3 seconds
Attack, Extreme Range: 4 seconds
Attack, Punch: 1 Second
Attack, Kick: 2 Seconds
Attack, Knife: 1 Second
Attack, Baton/Axe: 2 Seconds
Attack, Pole Arm: 3 Seconds
Aimed Shots: 2 X Attack (Max Range 10 Seconds)
Brace (to reduce RCL): 1 Second, NO MOVEMENT ALLOWED
Draw Pistol/ Unsling Rifle: 2 Seconds
Reload Pistol or Rifle (American mag release/bolt hold open ala M4): 3 Secs
Reload Pistol or Rifle (heel/paddle release NO bolt hold open ala AK): 4 Secs
Reload Pistol or Rifle (heel/paddle release NO bolt hold open odd reach to charge weapon ala H&K G3): 5 Secs
Reload Revolver (Speedloader): 5 Seconds
Reload Revolver (Moon Clip): 4 Seconds
Clear Jam: 3 Seconds
Ready Hand Grenade: 5 Seconds
Frag Grenade Fuse 1D3 + 2 Seconds
Flashbang Fuse: 3 Seconds
Get Down: 1 Second (kneeling), 2 seconds (prone)
Get Up: 2 X above
Sprint: 8 meters per Second (not from standing or prone)
Run: 6 meters per Second (not from standing or prone)
Trot: 4 meters per Second (not from prone)
Walk: 2 meters per Second or 1 meter per Second (stealth)
Crawl: 1 meter per second (high) 1/2m per second (low)


These are just a few actions and their times. If you need to know a time, just act it out to see how long it takes.

While this system may seem "complex," it is actually EASIER to use than to explain. You can also use a "simplified system" by just treating each Initiative Step in the basic game as 1 second of time. I just wanted a "randomizer" to equal out faster characters with slower ones. Even the fastest gun can be subjected to "The Fog Of War" on occasion.

As always, use what you want and ignore the rest...it's Your game after all.

Swag;

Last edited by swaghauler; 06-25-2016 at 06:33 PM. Reason: added some reload times
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-25-2016, 11:51 AM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Default Experience Increases for Initiative

The Special Operations Handbook introduced a new rule regarding Initiative on page 24.

It specified that Experience Points to gain Initiative should be THE SQUARE of the LEVEL BEING SOUGHT. So it would take 16 Experience Points to reach an Initiative of 4 (4 X 4). Players would gain 1 Experience Point per adventure or session.

I added an additional rule. When you reach the required number of Experience Points to reach a new Initiative Level (I also use this with CUF), you cash them in FOR A CHANCE TO IMPROVE. The Experience Points expended (and are lost whether you succeed or not) ALLOW a roll on 1D6 for an increase in Initiative. If you roll OVER your current Initiative, you gain the new level. Rolling your Initiative or less results in a failure.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-25-2016, 12:13 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Default How I Determine Starting Initiative

I figured I had better post this so I don't get questions about my Initiative System above.

To determine Initiative, I have my players add AGL, INT and the result of a 1D10 Roll together and consult the following chart:

BASE INITITIAVE TABLE:

Total of AGL, INT, & 1D10 Roll....................Base Initiative:
29 to 30 total .................................................. 6
25 to 28 total .................................................. 5
17 to 24 total .................................................. 4
09 to 16 total .................................................. 3
05 to 08 total .................................................. 2
03 to 04 total .................................................. 1

Players can get bonuses to Initiative. Those bonuses apply only to modifying the 1D10 roll. The following bonuses by Career Path are available. These bonuses can be stacked if the character has multiple careers that qualify.

1. Police/LE (all), Criminal, Fire Fighter, Any Military Service: +1 (one bonus point only from this list).
2. SWAT, Infantry, Armor, Airborne/Mountain, Combat Engineer: +1 (one bonus point only from this list).
3. Special Forces: +1

As always, use what you will and ignore the rest.

Swag.

Last edited by swaghauler; 11-30-2016 at 05:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-25-2016, 02:06 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Default Rate of Fire in a 1 Second Initiative Step

If you decide to treat each Initiative Step as 1 Second or use my system, your rates of fire will be different. The current ROF is based on the number of shots you can fire in 5 seconds. Current bursts are approximately 1/2 a second of time. The following ROfs are closer to "real world" rates of fire when you consider a 1/2 second time to fire in a single 1 Second Initiative Step.

BURSTS:

If you are using the 1 Second per Initiative Step System, then you should allow ONLY 1 burst per Step.

Under my system, you can only fire 1 Burst per attack (and those can take multiple seconds). I also determine Bursts differently in my game. A weapon's Burst Rate is determined by dividing its Cyclic Rate by 100 ( a 600 rpm would equal a ROF of 6).

The real change comes with the other action types.

Bolt Actions: A typical bolt action takes around 2 seconds to cycle. Experienced riflemen can get some impressive rates of fire (just Youtube "Mad Minute" to see this) but this requires a skill Roll in my game.
This roll is Average(Skill X 1): Small Arms (rifle) to reduce the bolt run time to 1 Second. An Outstanding Success would allow an attack in the NEXT Step/Second but this Attack is ONE LEVEL MORE DIFFICULT. Certain rifles that have "fast" bolt actions (such as the SMLE or The Schmidt-Rubin "straight pull" rifle) will allow a Routine (Skill X 1.5) test and certain "rough actions" (such as WW2 made Mosins) or "long throw actions" (such as the long .338 Lapua or .50 BMG) would require a Difficult (Skill X 0.5) test to increase bolt speed.
Specialization: if you are using The Special Operations Guide's Weapons Specializations Rules (pg 22), a Level 1 Specialist gets to increase his chance of success by ONE LEVEL (ie Average becomes Routine) and a Level 2 Specialist automatically reduces Difficulty Level to Easy (Skill X 2).

Pump/Lever Actions: A typical "pump gunner" (and lever guns too) takes between 1/4 of a second and 3/4 of a second to run the action. Most experienced operators can do it in about three-tenths of a second. This means that the average shooter can fire ONE SHOT in a single Initiative Step (or attack in my system). Very experienced shooters could manage TWO SHOTS if they are very skilled or dextrous. A character may fire TWO SHOTS in a Step if they have an AGL of 9+ AND a Raw Skill (not Asset) of 9+.
Fast pumps/levers: Some guns are so short of stroke (such as .22s) or so smooth (Winchester Model 12, Benelli Nova, Berretta pumps) that they allow the operator a bonus of 1 to his raw skill AND AGL to determine if he can shoot TWO SHOTS. The Winchester "Trench Gun" (1917s & 1918s) were not only smooth but had no sear disconnector so you could hold down the trigger and "pump-to-fire" them. These guns add 2 to the user's Raw Skill and AGL. All Recoil effects do apply to multiple shots.
Level 1 Weapons Specialists (Special Operations Guide, page 22) add 1 to their Skill AND AGL and Level 2 Specialists add 2 to their scores.

Single Action Revolvers: These are treated just like Pumps and Levers above in that you can fire and RECOCK the weapon in about 1/2 a second. Fast shooters can average TWO SHOTS in an Initiative Step. If their RAW (non-asset) Skill AND AGL is 8+, TWO SHOTS CAN BE FIRED.
Level 1 Specialists can add 1 to their scores and Level 2 Specialists add 2.

Double Action Revolvers & Double Action Only (DAO) Autoloaders: The typical shooter can fire ONE shot per 1/2 second and experienced shooters can fire more per Initiative Step (or Attack). A shooter with a Raw (non-asset) Skill of 7+ and an AGL of 7+ can fire TWO SHOTS in 1 Second.
Level 1 Specialists add 1 to their scores and Level 2 Specialists add 2.

DA/SA Autoloaders: They can increase their rate of fire to TWO SHOTS if their Skill/AGL is 6+. Level 1 Weapon Specialists add 1 and Level 2 Specialists add 2 to their scores.

Semi Autos/Single Action Automatics: These guns also have a 1/2 second to one shot ROF. You can fire TWO SHOTS if your Skill/AGL are both 5+. Weapons Specialists get to add their level to their scores (as always).

Single Action Automatics: These weapons must be carried "Cocked and Locked" (also known as "Condition One") in order to fire without a 1 Second Ready Action to rack the slide. Guns such as The 1911, Hi-Power, Luger, PA-15 and VZ58 can be safely carried in "Condition One" but other guns may be easier to carry in "Condition Three" (chamber empty) or even required to be carried that way. The Beretta M34 and M51 pistols have safety levers/buttons which are VERY difficult to disengage WITHOUT breaking a firing grip and are often carried chamber empty. The Baby Brownings (.25 and .32 calibers) would discharge if dropped and the Nambu Pistols were also noted for this. The T33 Tokarev had NO SAFETY AT ALL. These pistols MUST be carried "Condition Three" to ensure personal safety and will require a 1-second Ready action to get up and running.

Open Bolt MGs & SMGs: Like Single Action Automatics above, many of these weapons must either be carried with the bolt locked open or the user must perform a 1-Second Ready action to bring it into the fight. Many guns like the UZI, Beretta PM-12, CZ series, Carl Gustaf/Swedish K, and MAT-49 can be carried safely with the bolt open. Others like the M3, MP40, PPsh-43 Sten, and MAC-10 can be VERY dangerous OR require a Ready action to "unlock the bolt" before the gun can be brought into action. Still others like the Thompson, Sterling, or Owen fall into the middle where they COULD be dangerous if dropped. The GM should refer to descriptions of these weapons to determine where they fall.
Open bolt SMGs/MGs CANNOT carry an extra round in the chamber because the weapon "strips a round from the mag upon closing" and having a round in the chamber will cause a "double feed."

Closed Bolt SMGs: These are all safe to carry EVEN with an EXTRA round in the chamber. H&K MP5 users will find it hard to seat a mag with a round in the chamber (The Colt, Walther, the CZ Scorpion, the Scamp, and the vector Kriss DO NOT have this problem).

These are the rates of fire based on real world weapons speeds if you want to use each Initiative Step as an "Action."

Use what you want and ignore the rest.

Swag.

Last edited by swaghauler; 06-25-2016 at 07:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-26-2016, 12:23 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 642
Default An Alternate Initiative System

Another way to do a quick and dirty "Semi-Randomized" Initiative would be to generate an "Initiative Bonus" and add this to a 1D6 roll (for either a 5 or 6 second round).

I would generate it by adding INT and AGL to a 1D10 roll and then Dividing the total by 10 (rounding down). This formula could be modified by Career Paths like the formula I use is (and which is listed in the post above).

This Initiative Modifier would be added to a 1d6 roll to determine the number of Initiative Steps you can act in. You could either limit the Modified Die Roll to a maximum of 6 or let it be higher if you wanted to allow more actions per round. This system could be used to represent EITHER "Actions per round" or "The Number Of Seconds (in essence "action points") Worth of Actions You Can Perform In A Round." It would work very well with Admiral Lee's "poker chip" system. Just give the player a number of poker chips equal to his initiative roll, and he gives them back as he declares his actions. You could even make certain actions (like reloading, aimed shots or shooting at longer than short range) "cost" more actions/chips.

This would be a fairly fast and easy Alternative Initiative System for the game.

Swag.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-26-2016, 12:25 PM
Cdnwolf's Avatar
Cdnwolf Cdnwolf is offline
The end is nigh!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,406
Default

Encumbrance Ė Base Initiative
Overloaded 5
Heavily Encumbered 7
Moderately Encumbered 9
Lightly Encumbered 12
Unencumbered 15

Roll d10 and add to Initiative
__________________
Each day I encounter stupid people I keep wondering... is today when I get my first assault charge??

Old forum
http://twl2000hh.forumotion.ca/
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-28-2016, 07:13 AM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,176
Default

Wow, those are a lot to think on! Thanks.
__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.