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Old 03-21-2015, 04:02 PM
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Default Leftover nukes and other WMDs?

Pardon if this has been asked before, and answered, but...have any game supplements or articles been written about the disposition of remaining nukes or other WMDs on either side?

I've read the 1st Edition timeline, which discusses boatloads of tacnukes being used in the European and Chinese theaters as well as limited strategic strikes being used against C3 targets and refineries and the like, and I've seen a target list of U.S. impacts from the 2nd Edition. From what I remember of the U.S. impacts, most were in the 500 KT-1 MT range and most were refineries and command-and-control targets. I don't remember seeing missile bases, submarine bases, bomber bases, or chemical weapons depots featuring prominently on that list, though it has been years since I saw it, nor do I recall monster nukes like the 25 MT SS-18 Mod 3 or Mod 4 "city-busting" warhead listed.

Am I remembering the target list incorrectly? The Morrow Project target list seemed more...comprehensive, even if some of the numbers didn't really match up; that I attribute to the MP creators not exactly having access to hard numbers of ICBMs/SLBMs at the time the game was created. It wasn't like you could Google that information in the 80s.

And one also has to wonder about some of the numbers of weapons involved in the nuclear phase of the Twilight War. With the Soviet Union continuing to exist well into the 90s, though we did see some real-life diminishing of numbers and types of nuclear weapons through the INF and START treaties, I am thinking that those treaties didn't exist in the Twilight timeline. In fact, I would expect to see increased numbers of more modern weapons and equipment, an expansion of the B-1 and B-2 programs, more Ohio-class boomers, newer and better nukes, etc.

How did the game address these types of things, if at all? And how did you handle such questions in your own campaigns?

Thanks for any input, folks.
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Old 03-21-2015, 08:31 PM
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As mentioned in our other recent conversation SicOne, the Challenge Mag adventure Crazy Horse centres on recovering one or more nukes from a downed B1B bomber in the Black Hills of South Dakota. The aircraft had been carrying 8 air-launched cruise missiles, each armed with a single B86 200kt nuclear warhead. The adventure also includes T2K rules on nuke detonation effects, and a nice little table for what might happen if warheads are tampered with.

As I mentioned in our other discussion, the Twilight War's nuclear exchanges were a creeping, tit-for-tat affair and the much feared MAD scenario never quite played out. There are a few mentions in various modules of functioning nukes still being in government hands, and IIRC one of the Last Submarine modules has a group of bandits sitting on one or more potentially functional cruise missiles somewhere in New England.

France clearly never launched most of its strategic nukes, so they'd still be a formidable nuclear-armed power in the post war era.

There's a plausible rumour in The Black Madonna module which talks about one of several of the US military's nuclear demolition charges deployed in the city of Częstochowa earlier in the Twilight War not having detonated and having been successfully recovered by another party. In my last campaign the PCs came into possession of that "backpack nuke" when they stormed the catacombs underneath the Jasna Góra. They then deployed the weapon (with the blessing of the DIA station chief in Krakow) to completely obliterate the Warsaw Pact's Reserve Front HQ at Lublin, shortly before the Operation Omega orders were issued. That was one of my favorite couple of playing sessions of the entire campaign.
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Old 03-21-2015, 09:13 PM
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I had the Free City of Krakow changed a bit with instead of operation reset the PC had their hands on a nuclear bomb ejected from a bomber before it crashed. The RR gang was very interested in getting their hands on it.

I had the final confrontation occur at a place called... Oświęcim, Poland.... where the PC ran into the caretaker of the souls who turned out to be a retired Israeli nuclear specialist.

They gave the device to him and he set it off to finally destroy Auschwitz forever.
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Old 03-21-2015, 09:30 PM
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Here's a question:

How many aircraft were shot down but didn't burn or explode and the nuclear payload is still functional? The perfect thing for an adventure.

Going after the B-52 flown by Major Kong?
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Old 03-21-2015, 09:37 PM
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Isn't there a scenario in Challenge, Crazy Horse I think, which deals with just that onboard a crashed B-1?
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Old 03-21-2015, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
Isn't there a scenario in Challenge, Crazy Horse I think, which deals with just that onboard a crashed B-1?
Jeez Paul, I wrote about that in detail in the second post of this thread LOL! I guess I've been writing the same stuff over and over for so long, nobody reads my posts anymore.
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Old 03-21-2015, 10:47 PM
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Jeez Paul, I wrote about that in detail in the second post of this thread LOL! I guess I've been writing the same stuff over and over for so long, nobody reads my posts anymore.

Who is Targan guy and how long has he been posting?
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Old 03-22-2015, 01:29 AM
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A few more WMD which are mentioned.

The Special Ops Manual had a T2k mission to disable 13 smaller nukes (20kt) which were in Spetznaz hands.

Wasn't there also a mission somewhere to disable 3 Medium range missiles which had Nerve gas warheads and were pointed at the task force omega staging ground?
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Old 03-22-2015, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
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A few more WMD which are mentioned.

The Special Ops Manual had a T2k mission to disable 13 smaller nukes (20kt) which were in Spetznaz hands.
Yep, that's correct.

Of course, any crashed bomber with a nuke is going to possibly expose the PCs to a lethal amount of radiation if not handled correctly.
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Old 03-22-2015, 12:42 PM
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Heck, just send the PCs the Russians Northern Fleets port with a mask and snorkel, they'll find plenty in the rusting abandoned subs.
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Old 03-22-2015, 01:08 PM
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Heck, just send the PCs the Russians Northern Fleets port with a mask and snorkel, they'll find plenty in the rusting abandoned subs.
Think you'll need a dry suit too... that water is pretty cold.
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Old 03-22-2015, 10:02 PM
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Nope, not in summer and using the Russian way, a stick of butter or a nice yummy piece of flavored lard! I forgot what its called....but yummy!
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Old 04-04-2015, 05:12 PM
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The module Bear's Den has a Scud B with a biological agent. The agent is described as a virus that creates general flu-like illness and lethargy, designed mainly to incapacitate rather than kill. The authors were inadvertently (or perhaps not) ahead of their time as there were several revelations in the early 90's about the Soviet/Russian work on chemical agents that were designed with a similar purpose. Russian security forces even used a form of this weapon during an attempt to raid a theatre that was taken over by Chechens sometime in the late 90's/early 2000s.

I always wondered what happened to all of the ICBM's and air delivered nukes (either gravity or via cruise missiles) in the original timeline. To me, it seems like there should have been a hell of a lot more of them just "sitting around" when things really fell apart given the relatively small number actually used during the war. They seem to my mysteriously absent from canon other than statements such as those in Airlords or Howling Wilderness to the effect that "the nuclear warheads had already been removed".
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Old 04-04-2015, 09:09 PM
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The T2K module "Boomer" (I have it PDF file), the third and final chapter in the "Last Submarine" series, involves the PC's attempting to prevent the Soviets from reactivating and launching the remaining nukes stored in a Typhoon-class submarine that's permanently frozen in the Artic near the tip of Norway.
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Old 04-05-2015, 10:44 AM
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Isn't there a mention in Howling Wilderness about the remaining nuke silos in the west/midwest being safely in the hands of MilGov?
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Old 04-05-2015, 03:26 PM
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I also have to wonder about the various chemical weapons stockpiles. In the US, a lot of the munitions would not have been destroyed by 1996 but would have deteriorated too much to be reliable for combat use. We would've had various amounts of blister and nerve agents at depots in in Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Indiana, Kentucky, Oregon, and Utah.

- C.
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
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Isn't there a mention in Howling Wilderness about the remaining nuke silos in the west/midwest being safely in the hands of MilGov?
Thanks for that! I dug up the hated Howling Wilderness. To summarize, the Iowa Reserve Militia was ordered by President Broward to take the silos in North Dakota in 1999. The militia forced the USAF Security Forces to withdraw but by that time the warheads had been evacuated to Colorado. So, per canon, you have several hundred MIRV warheads in CO, in addition to the aforementioned chemical weapons at the Rocky Mountain Arsenal and other locations listed by Tegyrious. Okay, makes sense (and fodder for some US based missions).
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Tegyrius View Post
I also have to wonder about the various chemical weapons stockpiles. In the US, a lot of the munitions would not have been destroyed by 1996 but would have deteriorated too much to be reliable for combat use. We would've had various amounts of blister and nerve agents at depots in in Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Indiana, Kentucky, Oregon, and Utah.

- C.
Where was the depot in Utah? Given the canon info that Utah was the first state to basically tell the federal government to pound sand, finding (or defending) that depot could be an interesting adventure.
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:30 PM
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[QUOTE=Schone23666;64029]The T2K module "Boomer" (I have it PDF file), the third and final chapter in the "Last Submarine" series, involves the PC's attempting to prevent the Soviets from reactivating and launching the remaining nukes stored in a Typhoon-class submarine that's permanently frozen in the Artic near the tip of Norway.[/QUOTE

Good find! Has anyone run Boomer? I thought about changing it in my 2030 scenario from nukes to the infamous "seed bank" in Spitsbergen (would make it more interesting to my boys as the Bill Gates doomsday seed bank is a big internet thing with the youngsters).

I thought about modifying the Howling Wilderness scenario from a drought to a blight caused by a Russian Agro-Bioweapon launched in the final days of the exchange. The PCs would be sent on the sub to Norway to recovery seeds that are resistant to the blight. I just never ran that as a GM or played it as a PC back in the day and was wondering about anyone's thoughts on the module's playability. We are still a long LONG way from that in my campaign but I'm interested in your thoughts.
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Old 04-05-2015, 06:38 PM
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Where was the depot in Utah? Given the canon info that Utah was the first state to basically tell the federal government to pound sand, finding (or defending) that depot could be an interesting adventure.
Dugway Proving Grounds was the largest depot in Utah when I served. It was also a testing ground for all kinds of interesting equipment.
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Old 04-05-2015, 07:13 PM
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Dugway Proving Grounds was the largest depot in Utah when I served. It was also a testing ground for all kinds of interesting equipment.
Awesome, thanks! It's still a big time training site for CBRN so that will work perfectly! Thanks again!
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Old 04-05-2015, 09:17 PM
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Where was the depot in Utah? Given the canon info that Utah was the first state to basically tell the federal government to pound sand, finding (or defending) that depot could be an interesting adventure.
Deseret Chemical Depot in Toole. In real life, they were the first of the Army's stockpile sites to begin destroying their inventory, starting in 1996. In the T2k timeline, the destruction plant might have been complete but there probably would've been reasons to delay startup - and once the war went hot, all bets were off, anyway.

The full stockpile inventory is on the third page of this PDF. Total stockpile was around 1.1 million warheads.

Note that as the largest of the chemical weapons stockpiles, Deseret would've been first in line for a nuke in T2k. The Alabama site was at Anniston Army Depot, which probably took a bucket of sunlight too.

The other sites are Pine Bluff Arsenal in Arkansas; Blue Grass Army Depot in central Kentucky; Umatilla Chemical Depot in Oregon; Newport Chemical Depot in Indiana; and Pueblo Chemical Depot in Colorado. Blue Grass also handles a lot of conventional munitions; Pine Bluff may as well.

- C.
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Old 04-06-2015, 05:14 AM
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I always wondered what happened to all of the ICBM's and air delivered nukes (either gravity or via cruise missiles) in the original timeline.
Those not fired would probably be buried in their silos or have crashed with their shot-down aircraft.
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Old 04-06-2015, 06:36 AM
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Like so many things I forgot I had this

This is what my reasearch told me were active Nuclear and Chemical weapon storage and testing facilities in the US during the end of the cold war.

Anniston Army Depot (Chemical), Anniston Army Depot (Chemical), AL, VX,Sarin,Mustard,Blister, -85.92750549, 33.63704681
Pine Bluff Aresenal (Chemical), Pine Bluff Aresenal (Chemical), AR, VX,Sarin, -92.10302734, 34.33319092
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, North Island NAS, CA, NULL, -117.22194672, 32.68861008
Pueblo Chemical Depot, Pueblo Chemical Depot, CO, Mustard,Blister, -104.34142303, 38.27920151
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Kings Bay, GA, NULL, -81.53500366, 30.78222275
Newport Chemical Depot, Newport Chemical Depot, IN, VX, -87.42690277, 39.84940338
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Barksdale AFB, LA, NULL, -93.64305878, 32.50694275
US Army Chemical Center, Edgewood, MD, NULL, -76.29335022, 39.36801529
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Loring AFB, ME, NULL, -67.87444305, 46.96972275
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Whiteman AFB, MO, NULL, -93.53833008, 38.7266655
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Malmstrom AFB, MT, NULL, -111.19068909, 47.50999832
Blue Grass Chemical Depot, Blue Grass Chemical Depot, NC, NULL, -84.22180939, 37.6977005
Marine Chem/Bio Training Facility, MCAS Cherry Point, NC, NULL, -76.87190247, 34.88779831
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Grand Forks AFB, ND, NULL, -97.91666412, 47.93999863
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Minot AFB, ND, NULL, -101.31194305, 48.41027832
Kirtland Nuclear Munitions Storage Complex, Albuquerque, NM, NULL, -106.5490036, 35.00939941
Nuclear Weapon Storage /NBC School, Kirtland AFB, NM, NULL, -106.50777435, 35.0047226
Los Alamos National Laboratory, Los Alamos, NM, BSL-3, -106.26703644, 35.84027481
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Nellis AFB, NV, NULL, -114.95666504, 36.25166702
Umatilla Chemical Depot, Umatilla, OR, NULL, -119.34203339, 45.91767883
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Charleston Naval Weapon Station, SC, NULL, -79.97666931, 33.00777817
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Ellsworth AFB, SD, NULL, -103.10916901, 44.16583252
Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Oak Ridge, TN, BSL-3, -84.31666565, 35.93333435
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Dyess AFB, TX, NULL, -99.82749939, 32.43361282
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Gray AFB, TX, NULL, -98.59832764, 29.33722687
Pantex Nuclear Warhead Plant, Pantex Nuclear Warhead Plant, TX, NULL, -101.55290985, 35.31436539
Deseret Chemical Depot, Deseret Chemical Depot, UT, VX,Sarin,Mustard,Blister, -112.36820984, 40.40579987
NBC Testing Facility, Dugway Proving Ground, UT, BSL-3, -113.22899628, 40.1996994
Pentagon Bio Research, Arlington, VA, BSL-3, -77.05609894, 38.87099838
Naval Surface Weapons Center, Dahlgren, VA, BSL-3, -77.03307343, 38.34017181
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Yorktown NAS, VA, NULL, -76.58916473, 37.81666565
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Bangor, WA, NULL, -122.71472168, 47.71805573
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Fairchild AFB, WA, NULL, -117.63861084, 47.60666656
Nuclear Weapon Storage Facility, Warren AFB, WY, NULL, -104.87944794, 41.63333511
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Old 04-06-2015, 11:36 AM
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Awesome, thanks all!
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Old 04-22-2017, 09:16 AM
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Found this thread while looking for something else and it prompted a couple of thoughts.

At the time of the Twilight War, US Army chemical munitions inventory consisted of:

• Sulfur mustard blister agent in 105mm and 155mm artillery shells and 4.2" mortar projectiles;

• GB (Sarin) non-persistent nerve agent in 105mm, 155mm, and 8" artillery shells and M55 artillery rockets; and

• VX persistent nerve agent in 155mm and 8" artillery shells, M55 artillery rockets, and M23 chemical land mines.

I believe the USAF also maintained aerial spray capability but I have no direct knowledge of those systems or which agents they were capable of dispersing.

A real-world per-site inventory of these as of 1997 is available here (the link I posted above is now defunct):

https://fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/cbw/cw.htm

The blister agent is mostly 1940s-50s production. The nerve agents date to the 1950s-60s.

Due to the mustard's age and its long storage period, a large quantity of the inventory has settled and solidified inside the munitions. This is a problem for the disposal efforts currently ongoing at Pueblo and Blue Grass. In rules terms within the T2k timeframe, I would expect this to reduce the weapons' effectiveness in terms of burst radius and damage dice.

The nerve agent is still viable with no effective loss of lethality.

The artillery shells are stored unfused. I have no info on the mortar shells but I expect they also were stored unfused. The M55s are solid-fueled artillery rockets, stored in their transport/launch tubes with both rocket motors and bursting charges in place. They are electrically-ignited - theoretically, an operator can initiate with a car battery. In a T2k recovery/theft scenario, the M55s are the munitions most likely to be usable by marauders, New America, or other factions in the absence of artillery and the requisite skill set.

- C.
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Old 04-22-2017, 09:42 AM
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Some interesting adventures could be had by altering the timeline a bit and having the US maintain its stock of BZ. It's low-lethality (the lethal dose is about 40 times the incapacitating dose), with effects of confusion, memory breakdown, and hallucinations. It was estimated a BZ strike would incapacitate 94% of people in the area, with 2% lethality. BZ was delivered by two methods. The first was the M43 cluster bomb, which dropped 57 M138 bomblets, each with 6 ounces of BZ and would cover between 1/4 acre and 2 acres with BZ dust. Second was the M44 generator cluster, which used three smoke generators, each equipped with 42 canisters; each canister had 5 ounces of BZ. US stockpiles were destroyed at Pine Bluff 1988-90. The anticipated use was for situations were friendly and hostile assets were intermingled (such as hostage situations or rescue attempts), where the whole area would be hit before a protected team was inserted to withdraw the friendly assets.
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Old 04-22-2017, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tegyrius View Post
Found this thread while looking for something else and it prompted a couple of thoughts.

At the time of the Twilight War, US Army chemical munitions inventory consisted of:

• Sulfur mustard blister agent in 105mm and 155mm artillery shells and 4.2" mortar projectiles;

• GB (Sarin) non-persistent nerve agent in 105mm, 155mm, and 8" artillery shells and M55 artillery rockets; and

• VX persistent nerve agent in 155mm and 8" artillery shells, M55 artillery rockets, and M23 chemical land mines.

I believe the USAF also maintained aerial spray capability but I have no direct knowledge of those systems or which agents they were capable of dispersing.

A real-world per-site inventory of these as of 1997 is available here (the link I posted above is now defunct):

https://fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/cbw/cw.htm

The blister agent is mostly 1940s-50s production. The nerve agents date to the 1950s-60s.

Due to the mustard's age and its long storage period, a large quantity of the inventory has settled and solidified inside the munitions. This is a problem for the disposal efforts currently ongoing at Pueblo and Blue Grass. In rules terms within the T2k timeframe, I would expect this to reduce the weapons' effectiveness in terms of burst radius and damage dice.

The nerve agent is still viable with no effective loss of lethality.

The artillery shells are stored unfused. I have no info on the mortar shells but I expect they also were stored unfused. The M55s are solid-fueled artillery rockets, stored in their transport/launch tubes with both rocket motors and bursting charges in place. They are electrically-ignited - theoretically, an operator can initiate with a car battery. In a T2k recovery/theft scenario, the M55s are the munitions most likely to be usable by marauders, New America, or other factions in the absence of artillery and the requisite skill set.

- C.
All of the artillery shells used in Special Weapons after the 1980's remanufacture were M687 Binary Chemical Munitions (base ejection using the M577 VT proximity fuse). These rounds combined the agent (GB, DF, BZ and several more) with an "accelerant" (OPA or Isopropyl Amine) during the launch of the round. Accelerating the round out of the gun caused a "diaphragm" between the two canisters to burst, allowing the chemicals to combine and react. The agent was then "distributed" by a "nebulizer device" which activated when the VT fuse "detonated" the round. The Chemical canister was NEVER STORED inside the round but rather installed by the Special Weapons team immediately before the round was fired. Binary rounds could be configured to deliver whatever chemical agent you desired (both liquid and powdered) and would outnumber every other delivery system 10 to 1 in 2000.

The M55's were not the best option and many were destroyed during Operation Red Hat in 1990. This would have STILL occurred in the Twilight timeline because of an unforeseen issue. Sarin breaks down over time and forms an acid that began to eat the aluminum casing of the M55 rockets. The Nitrocellulose can also break down and become dangerous. This is why the rockets were refrigerated (to keep the rocket motors from becoming unstable and becoming "Vertical Limit Nitro"). Not (as is assumed) to preserve the GB2. Many of these rockets were leaking by the late 80's and early 90's and so "disposal" was mandatory for safety reasons. The Rockets could be either electrically ignited or set to explode by kinetic option (a small "kicker charge" could set off the nitrocellulose... one of the reasons they were "decommissioned").
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  #29  
Old 04-22-2017, 08:11 PM
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PM inbound, Swag. I believe you and I are working off of different knowledge bases of different vintages.

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Last edited by Tegyrius; 04-22-2017 at 08:26 PM.
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  #30  
Old 04-23-2017, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swaghauler View Post
Dugway Proving Grounds was the largest depot in Utah when I served. It was also a testing ground for all kinds of interesting equipment.

Toole (Two Lee ??) Army Depot is just west of Provo, Utah..... Chemical weapons and ammunition depot. Rumored to have thousands of 30.06 in cases made of the Korean war.

*edit* fun fact. When I drove through that area on vacation in 2006 there were CBRN detectors and sirens up on phone poles throughout the area in case of leaks.
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