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Old 05-19-2017, 05:03 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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Default Possible Module Followups

Looking for ideas for new releases for possible module followups along the lines of the Return to Europe series

Things like possibly a follow up to Kings Ransom or Armies of the Night or Urban Guerrilla - what would people be interested in the most

Not a rewrite in any way but a return to familiar areas later in the timeline - i.e. for instance Kings Ransom and actually see what the effects would be if the raid on the conference had occurred as postulated - or looking at US or French forces in Iraq versus the Soviets and their Iraq allies as a follow up to the RDF
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:37 PM
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A follow-up to King's Ransom would be good. Getting caught up in the last Soviet offensive in the Middle East...though any vets of Europe would be reminded of Kalisz...
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:32 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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Actually the last Soviet offensive in Iran is probably going to end up with the Soviet version of Kalisz - especially with the hints dropped in Kings Ransom as to the instablity of the Tudeh and that one unit in particular - wondering if it might be more like the Battle of Leipzip when the Saxons joined the Prussians against Napoleon and tipped the battle against him

Especially given the 2300 history and the Iranian Saudi war of 2008 - thats a pretty strong hint that the Soviet last offensive doesnt go very well
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:01 AM
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I would love to see sequels to Armies of the Night, Allegheny Uprising, and Going Home (or, "Left Behind" as it were).
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Old 05-21-2017, 10:48 AM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
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It feels like it would be beyond the scope of the rules as they stand, but I'd like to see things move up in scale. How do these broken countries knit themselves back together? {I know that answers exist in 2300AD, but bear with me}

That's probably not helpful to the original question, so I will continue to ponder.
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:42 PM
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Remember that the 2300AD timeline is more a guideline that an actual timeline that has to be followed by Twilight 2000 - for one big reason that so much of it is vague (on person I suspect and there was no inkling that the Twilight 2000 timeline development was going to get suspended by GDW going out of business)

this leaves flexibility in followups - for instance one thing that writers could do is leap forward a couple of years (with Marc Miller's agreement of course) for a followup - i.e. you wouldnt necessarily have to have it set in the early spring of 2001 which is where the released modules and sourcebooks pretty much ended -

also Marc is open to some changes in the proposed timeline as was suggested in Howling Wilderness and the Challenge Magazine articles - not wholesale revision but some modifications, for instance, that would resolve discrepancies between the various modules - even things like work how New America's plans being fully revealed by the events of Kidnapped might bring CivGov and MilGov together faster, at least on a military level, in operations against New America - i.e. the enemy of my enemy is my friend - especially after the plans to subordinate CivGov become known
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WallShadow View Post
I would love to see sequels to Armies of the Night, Allegheny Uprising, and Going Home (or, "Left Behind" as it were).
Actually thats one thing I am looking into - a possible sequel to Going Home where the DIA works with whats left of the US command structure and armed forces in Europe to try to get the cutoff XI Corps back to German Army lines and possibly home - or to reinforce CENTCOM
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Old 05-22-2017, 01:36 PM
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What would be an interesting module would be one detailing The Saudi War (2010 to 2013) from the original Traveller:2300 game.
France, Great Britain, Bavaria, Japan and Egypt occupied the Saudi oil fields in 2008 (to assure oil production for Europe) replacing United States forces which had been in the region since the start of World War III. Iran objected to the occupation and the Saudi War (2010 to 2013) began with an Iranian attack on the occupation forces and ended with the establishment of a buffer zone along the northern edge of the Saudi peninsula.

Thus would could be the third sourcebook of a trilogy detailing the Persian Gulf which started with RDF Sourcebook and then maybe one detailing the period 2002 to 2010 and the the final sourcebook detailing The Saudi War.
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:21 PM
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i would like to see something on getting the Suez Canal open... maybe only to high speed (15knots or better) ships. i was thinking that it was closed due to a couple of wrecks or the nuks drop on each end of the thing.

that would lead to more trade between Brits, France to the Persian Gulf and any future conflicts in that area
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Old 05-22-2017, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewan View Post
What would be an interesting module would be one detailing The Saudi War (2010 to 2013) from the original Traveller:2300 game.
France, Great Britain, Bavaria, Japan and Egypt occupied the Saudi oil fields in 2008 (to assure oil production for Europe) replacing United States forces which had been in the region since the start of World War III. Iran objected to the occupation and the Saudi War (2010 to 2013) began with an Iranian attack on the occupation forces and ended with the establishment of a buffer zone along the northern edge of the Saudi peninsula.

Thus would could be the third sourcebook of a trilogy detailing the Persian Gulf which started with RDF Sourcebook and then maybe one detailing the period 2002 to 2010 and the the final sourcebook detailing The Saudi War.
One thing I am trying to remember - was the original 2300AD for Traveller done with the first edition of the game or the second

In the first edition Japan basically comes thru almost intact - where in the second edition they get nuked big time by the Soviets
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
One thing I am trying to remember - was the original 2300AD for Traveller done with the first edition of the game or the second

In the first edition Japan basically comes thru almost intact - where in the second edition they get nuked big time by the Soviets
First. T2K v1 came out in '84, T:2300 in '86, 2300 AD in '88, and T2K v2 in '90.


I've got two things I'd like to see: more about the Caribbean and Gulf (following on from Red Star, Urban Guerillas, and Spanish Main), and more off-beat adventures in the vein of Twilight Nightmares.
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Old 05-22-2017, 09:42 PM
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It would be nice to have something setting out the conflict in Asia/China. Europe was almost paradise from how I interpreted the little bit of official information that came out.
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Old 05-28-2017, 10:04 AM
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First. T2K v1 came out in '84, T:2300 in '86, 2300 AD in '88, and T2K v2 in '90.


I've got two things I'd like to see: more about the Caribbean and Gulf (following on from Red Star, Urban Guerillas, and Spanish Main), and more off-beat adventures in the vein of Twilight Nightmares.
Frank Chadwick told me when I visited them that they were working on 2300 and T2K v2 at about the same time, but 2300 was nearly ready to go while v2 was in sort of an embryonic stage.
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Old 05-28-2017, 11:26 PM
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Frank Chadwick told me when I visited them that they were working on 2300 and T2K v2 at about the same time, but 2300 was nearly ready to go while v2 was in sort of an embryonic stage.
It sure seems like V2 never really got off the ground - except for the various sourcebooks it never really went anywhere - and always wondered how they were going to reconcile the differences - i.e. Japan in V1 pretty much being unhit versus V2 where it gets nuked after taking the Soviets on, Korea being unified in V2 versus non-unified in V1, etc..
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Old 06-02-2017, 12:12 AM
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FYI one reason its hard to do module followups is the whole albatross around the neck of writers like me that is Howling Wilderness - after re-reading it again I am basically still standing by my statement that it painted GDW into a corner as to the future of the game - basically it kills off the US and makes campaigning in the US into nothing more than a game of Aftermath or Fallout.

Even if you accept the (completely unrealistic) drought as canon and its effects on the US and try go forward from there the simple fact is that the history of the American units in the US is frankly nonsensical - especially considering that it has multiple MilGov units basically melting away and disappearing between June 2000 and April 2001 - when if anything those units would be getting bigger either by adding reinforcements from Europe or by recruiting locally since the best way to stay alive in a low food environment would be to join the military similar to what happened in Krakow

Let alone events that make no sense - MilGov pulling the 40th out of Bakersfield and basically abandoning the last oil production area in CA when the rest of HW goes out of its way stating that MilGov is doing everything it can to hold onto areas that are still producing oil

And the wasting away of units is at a pace that its hard to believe there would be any intact military units left by the end of the summer

Two examples - the 40th goes from 24 tanks and 3000 men to 1200 men and 3 tanks (with 900 going to join the 46th) and the 46th goes from 1000 men to 1100 men - but only because 900 men join up from the 40th.

So that means the 46th has 800 of its 1000 men desert or get killed in 9 months and somehow the division is intact when the 900 men from the 40th arrive?

And what happens to the 78th is worse - it has 1000 soldiers in June 2000 but by December of 2000 only 100 are left when the 800 men show up from Norfolk to bring them up to 900? The division had 90 percent of their men desert or became casualties over six months and somehow it survived as a cohesive unit until the 800 new men show up?

Add in that MilGov lets the two biggest collections of AFV's in NA just waste away - 36 tanks in the 194th to 8 (when they have plenty of gas and if they did go to the tank plant in Lima a huge collection of M1 spare parts to keep them going) and the 24 tanks in the 40th go to 3 (again stationed in an area that is still producing oil) when there are no replacements since they abandoned everything in Europe?

It would be one thing if you saw this as a pattern elsewhere in other modules - but you dont see this pattern of units having huge changes in numbers of personnel or vehicles.

Example - Going Home - almost every US unit in November of 2000 have the same number of men and tanks they had in June of 2000 - i.e. 36th has 5000 men and 35 tanks in US Army Vehicle Guide on June 1 - and at Going Home it has 5000 men and 35 tanks - i.e. no loss of men or equipment at all in 5 months.

Yet in the US with a lot more access to manpower and spare parts and in many cases petroleum fuel the units are withering away, not recruiting new personnel and worse yet not even using the men who came home - many of whom are in units that arrived at Bremerhaven intact and still obeying orders - and thus could have been stood up at the pier in Norfolk as intact units to send out to help stabilize the country?

They had multiple divisions show up intact and fully functional with intact command structures at Bremerhaven - where did they go? A perfect example is the 28th - its the PA National Guard after all. The state is mostly in chaos, the western part is being preyed on by a homicidal marauder group and the eastern areas are out of control refugee camps - and five months after landing in Norfolk no one has sent the 28th to PA to try to bring some kind of order to the state?
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Old 06-02-2017, 01:06 AM
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I think most of us all regarded HW as completely unworkable and unrealistic on a lot of levels. I basically ignored it for most part.
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Old 06-02-2017, 08:28 AM
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definitely have ideas for followups - but I am in the dilemma where to be able to write something plausible and fun for players I may have to modify canon to do it - and I dont mean a simple mod like bringing the 2nd AD to Africa for Kenya but instead basically say "no the 40th didnt break up in CA" or "no MilGov wasnt stupid and wasted 43000 men they brought home at the cost of literally almost all the remaining US AFV's"

even something as simple as using bucket brigades and horses or people dragging carts with water tanks on them to bring water out of rivers for irrigation - which given the huge amount of people who knew that its either do this or starve would have done it - i.e. you dont need electricity and oil to irrigate fields - they have been doing it for over seven thousand years that we know of if not longer - and yes its backbreaking work and really labor intensive - but you dont starve to death - and thats exactly why the US military would be recruiting - to be able to guard those laborers and get their crops in and keep marauders away while they do it

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Old 06-02-2017, 09:14 AM
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An idea----

Rework HW into something half way realistic. I just don't buy things getting so desperate in the US it ends up worse than Poland, which was badly depopulated by DOZENS of tactical nuclear weapons and constant war over 5 years.
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Old 06-02-2017, 09:45 AM
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talking to Marc - HW is canon but he is open to some mods to the canon - so will see what can be done - I think Loren went way way way too far - and ignored many of the previous modules as to dates and events in them that HW is contradicting - and any canon is only as good as its relevance to earlier releases - so if Ozarks is released earlier and contradicts HW then HW can be overruled in that aspect

Ozarks basically states that the 49th is intact and that Armies of the Night succeeded in MilGov being able to at least get some foothold into NYC as to where the characters might have come from to play it - plus the timeline clearly is different then what is in HW - so there is precedent for saying HW can be ignored in some ways based on previous canon to some extent
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Old 06-02-2017, 09:56 AM
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talking to Marc - HW is canon but he is open to some mods to the canon - so will see what can be done - I think Loren went way way way too far - and ignored many of the previous modules as to dates and events in them that HW is contradicting - and any canon is only as good as its relevance to earlier releases - so if Ozarks is released earlier and contradicts HW then HW can be overruled in that aspect

Ozarks basically states that the 49th is intact and that Armies of the Night succeeded in MilGov being able to at least get some foothold into NYC as to where the characters might have come from to play it - plus the timeline clearly is different then what is in HW - so there is precedent for saying HW can be ignored in some ways based on previous canon to some extent
I'm sure what ever you do to HW to fix the huge list of issues would be great... IE i would get a copy of it (if it was fixed) and i'm not an active player. could you list it as HWv2 or HW updated?
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Old 06-02-2017, 10:33 AM
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I dont think you will ever see an official HW revision or modification except fan canon like my Olefin Universe thread - but having followups released that follow other earlier released canon modules as to timeline and events and thus "correct" HW is a distinct possibility - i.e. like having the aforementioned 28th Infantry march as a unit to PA to try to put the state back together

Or for that matter the fact that HW was published before the Last Submarine Trilogy was completed - and thus had no mention whatsoever of the sub making it home with the two scientists and their way to generate power - that is a big possible change right there

Boomer was released several months after HW by Loren - he had to be working on it at the same time - that omission is a big one for sure in HW - getting even a single power station of that type on line means you have power to pump water out of rivers or underground reservoirs, recharge batteries, etc. - and they would be getting home in time to make a big difference in the timeline

obviously he couldnt put it in HW about the end of Boomer - both Med Cruise and Boomer were still in development and hadnt been released - getting that sub home with those scientists is a game and timeline changer - so right there is one way to change and update HW "legally" - because those events definitely occur AFTER April 2001
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Old 06-02-2017, 11:07 AM
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Olefin...

That reminds me of one of the big problems I had with HW, and the Twilight 2000 setting...nuclear power plants.

These were situated away from other targets and would have been vital for recovery efforts. No need to drill for oil and gas. I've always seen these a priority for governments (national, regional, local) to secure and protect and use as bases for recovery efforts.
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Old 06-02-2017, 12:01 PM
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Even if you accept the (completely unrealistic) drought as canon and its effects on the US and try go forward from there the simple fact is that the history of the American units in the US is frankly nonsensical - especially considering that it has multiple MilGov units basically melting away and disappearing between June 2000 and April 2001 - when if anything those units would be getting bigger either by adding reinforcements from Europe or by recruiting locally since the best way to stay alive in a low food environment would be to join the military similar to what happened in Krakow
Not unrealistic. Completely in line with military history right up to modern times. For America you can use the Revolution (Valley Forge) and The Civil War (Union Forces in the first two years, Confederate in the second).

When the soldiers are not paid or fed they desert. Some slip off with their equipment and become criminals. Some take their stuff and go home, like literally home, to be with and take care of their families. Some changes sides, since if the enemy is paying their troops and feeding their troops something must be right.

Your also not factoring in disease. By 98 large scale pharmaceutical manufacturing is lost and tender 20 century immune systems are not up to the challenges of dysentery, cholera, typhus, and other diseases. Even a small outbreak and a few rumors of disease would turn small desertion into large desertion with troops stealing vehicles plus supplies to get far away.

Last, racial tensions. Minorities are a larger percentage of Services than represented in the larger civil population.

Military history of every kind of campaign anywhere in the world shows us multiples examples of desertion fading armies into small pitiful war bands.
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Old 06-02-2017, 12:18 PM
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Some desertion sure - 80 and 90 percent? No way - especially since staying together means you can protect the food you are growing and can beat off marauders and desperate people looking for food

and in this case they would be getting fed - i.e. they are in cantonments and getting fed thru that whole period - its not till after April that it becomes apparent there is going to be a big time problem with getting food -

look at A Rock in Troubled Waters - per that article there is no problem feeding the soldiers and civilians in southern NJ - and they have comparatively easy duty with the State Militia to back them up - and yet they desert in huge numbers compared to say the 43rd who was surrounded on all sides by marauders and hostile forces but still was in pretty good shape right up to the April 2001 mutiny

and if anything after it was known that food was going to be tight it would be a bigger incentive to hang together - good luck keeping any food you grow if its you and your M-16 at your family farm holding off thousands of hungry people

on the other hand 1000 massed M-16's protecting the fields and food supplies in your cantonment probably would do the job easily
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Old 06-02-2017, 05:48 PM
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I can see both sides of the argument. On the pro-desertion side, when these guys hear things are going to hell in a handbasket, a lot of them are going to want to get back to their families, similar to how the rate of desertion of Georgian troops in the US Civil War spiked during and after Sherman's siege of Atlanta. In the Appalachians, there were instances of deserters from the Confederate Army forming their own units that fought off Confederate regulars. A historical study of the deserters found there were two common factors that led to desertion: hardship among their families and finding out their home district wasn't united in support of the effort. With the MilGov/CivGov split (and New America), there's likely to be wavering support in many districts, and severe hardship among soldiers' families, which will cause desertion higher than usual. I don't know if it would reach 80-90%, but given that the Soviet Border Troops had 60-80% desertion rates during the Afghanistan War, it's likely it would be much higher than most people would suspect.
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Old 06-03-2017, 12:25 PM
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Some desertion sure - 80 and 90 percent? No way - especially since staying together means you can protect the food you are growing and can beat off marauders and desperate people looking for food
Easily.. 90 percent... Napoleons campaign into Russia. These units your talking about as "Divisions" with that number are a Division on paper. A company is approximately 100 men. A Battalion is 3 to 5 companies (CA 3 and CS or CSS 5), a Brigade is 3 to five battalions..... These "Divisions" are below the operational strength of a Brigade. Their already broken, demoralized, under trained, under staffed, and without Corps or Army commands to make even the suggestion of Orders.

Why stay? These troops are in the Continental U.S. and probably desperate for news about family after the TDM and with the drought. A unit this size goes through tons (literal tons) of food and fuel per day. What ever rations they have are coming from somewhere else because in less than a month a unit that size will have consumed every scrap of food and eaten the livestock.

Grow food? Who is doing that for them? These guys grew up in NY, LA, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Dallas, Houston, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Nashville, etc, etc, etc... The 18 - 30 year olds have never ever grow anything let alone seen a garden. Before you think "Ah ha! Someone comes from somewhere food grows". The overwhelming majority of the services are low income urban kids. The small town kids you hope could grow something came from towns, not farms. Even the kids that grew up on farms joined the Army to get away from that. They can drive the tractor, but probably know little about seed, planting, maintaining, and harvest.

The only way anyone of these "Divisions" is growing food is to enslave the locals or barter for the locals to grow it (aka extortion).

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"and in this case they would be getting fed - i.e. they are in cantonments and getting fed thru that whole period - its not till after April that it becomes apparent there is going to be a big time problem with getting food - "
Fed what? Three squares? There is being fed and then being fed.... For 54 days in 2003 I ate two MREs a day because the supply chain couldn't keep up and the trucks essentially mugged by units before they reached us. Is that fed? Yeah. I hate peanuts and peanut anything to this day.

Troops are getting fed and if you ask a Soldier anywhere, chow sucks. Food is probably the number one morale item. Lots of food and lots of variety prepared better than a 5 star steakhouse and don't skimp on any trimmings.

Now in this.. Boiled potatoes, soup, bread, and butter is fed. Troops down at the bottom, the Privates and Corporals have no idea and no thought to next month. Their immediate concerns are today and tomorrow (when do we quit, when do we eat, when can I drink, what time do I have to be back) not April, May, June or any other date.

Getting food is on the G3, and each layer of S3 below that guy. Those guys probably have to move about with bodyguards by this point.

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look at A Rock in Troubled Waters - per that article there is no problem feeding the soldiers and civilians in southern NJ - and they have comparatively easy duty with the State Militia to back them up - and yet they desert in huge numbers compared to say the 43rd who was surrounded on all sides by marauders and hostile forces but still was in pretty good shape right up to the April 2001 mutiny
Being on the coast those troops are probably damned tired of cod, but love those virginia hams. NJ borders Maryland, Pennsylvania, and New York city so benefits from the Pennsylvania Dutch, and trade still coming to the docks in NJ and NYC. Not being landlocked is probably the secret to that success.

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and if anything after it was known that food was going to be tight it would be a bigger incentive to hang together - good luck keeping any food you grow if its you and your M-16 at your family farm holding off thousands of hungry people
6-8 people in a log stockade can hold off hundreds on foot. Even with bow saws and not chainsaws a frontier fort can go up quickly. Farm animals on the ground floor is free heat to the humans on the second and third floors. People have been doing this for centuries. More over those are people you know and can count on (mostly) who aren't going to desert you or throw you out.

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on the other hand 1000 massed M-16's protecting the fields and food supplies in your cantonment probably would do the job easily
Oh yeah... 1000 rifles in the hands of 18 year olds with impulse control issues that hate being told what to do and hate their squad leader, platoon leader, and LT because he is white, black, hispanic, asian, northern, southern, red neck, cholo, ghetto, ignorant, too smart, etc, etc.

Doubt that. Snuffy is going to take his pack and his rifle and go home even if he has to walk there. That 1000 other guys isn't family and few of them friends.

The only thing keeping Pvt Snuffy from deserting really is the very real threat of death by hanging if he is caught after deserting.
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Old 06-03-2017, 04:15 PM
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Those guys have been growing their own food for quite a while - the basic supply system broke down in 1998 and they have been growing their own since 1999 - so even if they are city dwellers they would either have gotten used to planting their own crops or they would have found people to do it for them while they guarded them - which is another argument against them going over the hill - i.e. if they didnt know how to grow food good luck surviving on their own

As for the 78th - they werent getting any food coming in from NYC - and as A Rock In Troubled Waters states the Amish areas (Lancaster PA is mentioned specifically and thats where they are) were overrun by refugees and basically on the edge of starvation - meaning they werent getting any food from there - and HW does say the Amish basically got wiped out - thus the area around them is basically starving while they are getting fed and no one is hungry in their area - thus deserting makes no sense - versus say being based in West Texas where any drought means pretty quickly you are eating your own leather shoes after the last of the rations runs out

So again 80-90 percent desertion rates when a) they are growing their own food and able to feed themselves and defend that food when going AWOL means you might starve and b) the areas around you are overrun with marauder and bandit and cannibal groups that love to pick off small encampments and family groups - which you would know after seeing that happen ever since 1999 - is definitely not realistic
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Old 06-03-2017, 04:45 PM
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its very interesting how much Twilight 2000 and its fan base is split up like the Christian church is - with the Howling Wilderness/Kidnapped defenders in many ways being like the born again Protestants who defend every word in the Bible as being canonical no matter what it says even if it contradicts itself

Meanwhile those who dont want to use HW and Kidnapped or argue for changes in them in many ways are more like those in the Church who are more willing to accept that perhaps some areas of the Bible may have issues, either from translation or who actually authored them and need to discussed and debated to determine those particular areas of validity within the overall Church canon

i.e. to use an example - those who see HW and Kidnapped as canon and have no issues with it even if it contradicts earlier canon versus those who see that the drought as described would have killed off the US for good and there would have been no MilGov and CivGov to make peace in 2020 (Traveler 2300AD timeline canon which came from the Great Game) let alone the contradictions in HW to earlier canon releases that they say should be resolved in a possible re-release or correction

And FYI - one reason I have argued over the years for an update to HW is that there are modules released after it came out that could radically change its proposed history - getting the sub home with those two scientists means you have a nuclear sub to generate power and electricity somewhere on the US East Coast (not mentioned in HW) and you have two scientists in the US that can make cheap fusion reactors with materials that could be scavenged (definitely not mentioned in HW) - let alone getting the weather satellite data from Satellite down (again not mentioned in HW) - add all those in and the supposed history of 2001 after April could be changed immensely from what Loren wrote

Example of why writing new material can be an issue if you try to please everyone - lets say I did a story where the 28th Infantry (which is the PA National Guard) (who showed up at Bremerhaven organized and following command orders loyal to MilGov and the US Army per canon in Going Hom ) as a body leaves Norfolk, goes to PA and finds some of the other troves mentioned in Allegheny Uprising to equip itself with Bradleys and other vehicles and then starts to stabilize the state - you will have those who will really enjoy that and avidly read it - and others who will cry "not mentioned in HW at all!" and argue that it cannot be considered canon because it wasnt in HW when it was released (even though having the 28th go home to PA is basically common sense)

and for the record I can see both sides of the argument and the validity of both sides and appreciate how both sides feel (as a Christian too - lets say my family encompasses both sides of the Bible argument and it does make for lively discussion)

Last edited by Olefin; 06-03-2017 at 09:21 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-03-2017, 11:11 PM
mpipes mpipes is offline
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I guess I am a heretic!!

I changed what I did not like in the campaign I had/have.

The US was not a total basket case. A LOT of nuclear power plants were intact. The Anniston Army Depot (and a tank plant), Red River Depot, and quite a few refineries in OK and Arkansas/Louisiana were intact. F-16 factory in Ft. Worth undamaged along with F-15 plant in St Louis. The Lima tank plant undamaged. York, Pa vehicle factories untouched.

Overall unit strength was down to about 1/4 pre-war. Average NATO vehicle strength was down by 75% on average with a few units having about 1/3 tank strength. Pact units down to between 10% to 30% vehicle/personnel strength.

Yes, you had a lot of devastation. But I just did not buy into the TOTAL devastation you see in HW. Neither side launched all their nukes. What was launched was a strike aimed at power/energy infrastructure - a limited countervalue strike. Unless you had both sides going for an all out countervalue strike aimed at the populations - cities- A LOT of people, and more importantly, a lot of industry will be unharmed.

I also did not buy 100% into the EMP damage being as severe. Not that it could have been done, but I think technical limitations on the existing ICBM/SLBM force would have limited the ability for either side to get nuclear weapons into optimal positions for the EMP effect contemplated by GDW. I think EMP would have been more localized. Also, a lot of stuff would be stored in metal building that I have often thought of as giant Faraday cages.
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Old 06-04-2017, 10:36 AM
simonmark6 simonmark6 is offline
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"It's very interesting how much Twilight 2000 and its fan base is split up like the Christian church is - with the Howling Wilderness/Kidnapped defenders in many ways being like the born again Protestants who defend every word in the Bible as being canonical no matter what it says even if it contradicts itself

Meanwhile those who don't want to use HW and Kidnapped or argue for changes in them in many ways are more like those in the Church who are more willing to accept that perhaps some areas of the Bible may have issues, either from translation or who actually authored them and need to discussed and debated to determine those particular areas of validity within the overall Church canon."

Not really, although trying to reduce a debate to a specious ad hominem false analogy in order to belittle those that disagree with you lowers the strength of your argument somewhat.

Instead of arguing over the validity of the "reality" of a work of fiction that by the nature of the collaborative story-telling element of the art form means that everyone's game will be different and will deviate from canon maybe we should focus on having fun and adding to the body of work so that people can enjoy whatever they want to take from it.

You've already done this with your new sourcebook and I'd suggest hat instead of looking to re-write canon by revisiting modules that exist that we look at expanding the areas covered before we go bac to anything already done.
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