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Old 03-31-2011, 10:47 PM
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raketenjagdpanzer raketenjagdpanzer is offline
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Default 1st Florida JMC - fictional unit for T2k (any edition)

Hey guys, as threatened here's a writeup for a military unit based in Orlando. I did one that I stuck in the middle of another thread, but I reworked it a bit. It combines information about the unit and post-1997 Orlando proper, but I think it works in general. I tried to dial in as much of what I could conceive as "realism" as possible. I live in Central Florida, and there's a stupid amount of small civil airports around here; I would think that for at least a few years just given what's at the airports in Sanford, MCO, Orlando International (technically part of MCO) and the Executive Airport downtown you could keep a couple of helos flying for a good bit, especially with some assistance from the folks at Embry-Riddle.

Likewise, while most (if not all) cars would have been zapped by EMP, Orlando is an insanely spread out place and consequently there's a LOT of gas stations and fuel depots around. Even if you take out a third to a half, I think there's going to be a little bit of gas available until you get distilling up and running.

Finally, Florida exports more food than it imports nationally and internationally. Even with our ridiculously bloated "snow bird" population we've got these days, while it wouldn't be a picnic, food growing and harvesting would be easier here than practically anywhere else (environmental damage taken under consideration, of course: I don't foresee it being a cakewalk by any means, but still, if T2k has food being grown in frigging Manhattan then by God central Florida would fare well enough!)

As far as vehicles go, yes, for reals the highway patrol barracks has a LAV-100 and LAV-150 stationed at it, and the Orange County Sheriff's Office has an ACAV! I figure most of TRANSCOM's (the 143rd over on Corrine Drive) assets would be in Europe, but had a few here for convenience's sake (maybe they'd been repaired and were awaiting redeployment).

The 1st JMC isn't a "rogue" military unit; the powers that be formed a "kampfgruppe" if you will out of necessity. They realize that "Good luck, you're on your own" may also well apply to them for a long, long time and are trying to maintain some sense of safety and order in Orlando until things stabilize and they get orders to stand down.

Finally, this is a beta and I'd love to hear everyone's feedback...

1st Provisional Joint Military Command, Orlando, FL.

Current strength: 702 personnel

Location: Former NTC Orlando

Equipment: 2x M113A1 (ex NASA), 1x XM734/MICV (ex-Orange County Sheriffs Office), 1 Cadillac-Gage LAV150 (ex Florida Highway Patrol), 1 Cadillac-Gage LAV100 (ex Florida Highway Patrol)

1x Bell Jetranger (ex-Private ownership), 1x UH1 (ex Forestry Service)

3x M985 HEMETT, 8x M998 Humvee, 4x civilian Humvee (modified/upgraded)

Equipment: hundreds of small arms, ammunition, medium support weapons including .50 calibur machine guns mounted on vehicles, LAW rockets, some mortars.

Prior to the nuclear attack on the United States in November 1997, the Orlando, Florida area was home to several small military units, most of whom fell under the auspices of CentCom. An Army Reserve transportation unit, USMC and USN reserve stations and the remainder of personnel at the closing Orlando Naval Traning Center, as well as smaller commands located at infrastructure and simluation teams near the University of Central Florida and US Army and Navy ROTC commands at same all totaled approximately 1500 non-combat deployed personnel.

After the Thanksgiving Day Massacre, which included the destruction of CENTCOM headquarters in Tampa, NTC Orlando and 377th Military Intelligence command met for an emergency meeting. EMP had damaged (but not destroyed) long-range communication with continuance-of-government sites in the US; orders received from various commands were often confusing and contradictory. When no immediate, clear orders were forthcoming, the various commands in the Orlando area acted in nearly unique concert with one another to try and salvage the situation as best as they could.

Orlando was (like most of the United States) suffering from a massive humanitarian crisis. Locations generally west and south of the Pine Hills suburb had recieved some fallout from the Tampa groundburst; the further south-west the worse the danger. Most of the tourist areas had been at least somewhat contaminated, and while quick (if uncoordinated) response from Osceola county's emergency management prevented many casualties, the resulting panic nearly overwhelmed Orlando itself. Most tourists from out of state (or country) attempted to reach Orlando International Airport, Orlando Executive Airport and Sanford Airport. All of the civil aircraft had at the very least been damaged by EMP, and conditions in the airports quickly spiraled out of control. Severe damage to the power grid meant little or no food or water beyond whatever could be quickly prepared before spoilage. Fear and desperation in the Orlando area turned to frustration, then to anger. With many police in the metropolitan area looking to their own, "the Military" attempted to provide what security it could for government personnel and civilians asking for assistance.

1998

The literal and figurative fallout of the 1997 nuclear strikes continued to be felt acutely into 1998. A colder and dryer than normal winter coupled with rampant strains of influenza took a massive toll on the civilian population of Orlando. Fearing widespread outbreaks of typhus from unburied dead and lack of proper sanitation, thousands fled further south. This exodus continued until rumors of resurgent Seminole and "white supremacist" (likely New America) death squads operating throughout the southern Florida countryside began to filter in. However, even with a comparatively bitter winter, the Joint Military Command managed to hang on. The deep division between a Civilian and Military government was felt: National Guard units that were operating out of areas north and east of Orlando (fallout from the Cape Canaveral nuclear strikes had blown out to sea) to distribute food and fuel were frequently deployed under orders from differing authority. It was rumored that some units under orders of CivGov were to apprehend JMC personnel and deny aid to JMC "supporters", but it is to this date unknown if this was rumor or truth. At any rate, as emergency food and fuel stocks dwindled through the winter and into the spring, support from CivGov and MilGov became less and less tangible as the focus was on the still raging third world war. Late in the year, the JMC (now calling itself the 1st JMC, or simply "The 1st") attempted to coordinate with farmers and ranchers throughout Central Florida. Deseret Ranches in west Brevard county had been virtually abandoned and without proper care and feeding (and in no small part to predation by wildlife and desperate people) most of the herd there (plus nearly all dairy cattle) had died off. The winter had been particularly cruel, freezing most vegetable crops to death, with growers having little to spare beyond what the farm families themselves needed to survive.

However, the end of 1998 did see one unusual but helpful event: 20 personnel, crammed into two M113A1s, arrived at the NTC in late January. These were the handful of survivors and family members from Cape Canaveral. The two APCs were originally intended to be used as rescue vehicles in the event of a launch pad disaster. The rescue personnel, along with family and some provisions had made the 30 mile trek from the Brevard disaster area.
[Hurricanes?]

1999

The winter of 1999 was somewhat better; the JMC was able to restart generators at two major hospitals in Orlando; the few students and professors from the University of Central Florida medical school along with a great deal of help from chemistry department personnel were able to make limited amounts of antibiotics (+/-) both dry and liquid. As the "hospital district" in downtown Orlando was mostly intact, the 20000 or so remaining residents of the Orlando Metro area gradually migrated towards it. This was a true blessing not only for the JMC but for the various police forces: a concentration of people, while presenting its own set of challenges, would make protecting the population from marauders that much easier.
With alcohol fuel production in full swing (and some supplemental gasoline still available now and again), essential vehicles and limited public transportation could operate. While there was no stricture put on personal vehicles per se. However, as most late model cars suffered the destruction of irreplaceable computer ignition and timing and fuel injection and a host of other microprocessor parts in each one, few civilian owned automobiles remain in operation. The few that do are "classic" cars from the late 1960's back.

Given the smaller area required to patrol, the Orange County Sheriff's Department placed its "Crisis Response vehicle", an XM734/MICV (a modified ACAV M113 with firing ports) "on loan" to the 1st JMC. The Highway Patrol detachment did the same with their LAV-100 and LAV-150. Although most of the 143rd TRANSCOM was engaged in Europe at the time, three M985 HEMTT and eight M988 HMMWV (and later four "abandoned" civilian variants of same) were available for the 1st JMC to use.
Midyear saw more good news for the 1st JMC: students from nearby Embry Riddle aviation college in Daytona Beach who had evacuated to Orlando worked with Navy personnel to build up a working Bell Jetranger, scavenging together and repairing EMP damaged parts from helicopters at the Orlando Executive Airport. Likewise, a Forestry Service UH-1 was put in working order. This, coupled with a huge amount of AvGas available for the taking from the above-mentioned airports enabled, and continues to enable, the 1st JMC to fly observation missions - an invaluable asset.
[Hurricanes?]

2000

The year 2000 has been particularly rough for both the 1st JMC and Orlando. While the mobility and firepower of the JMC are formidable, they cannot be everywhere at once. The New America forces regularly probe the I-4 Corridor into Orlando, as well as unguarded side-roads, "liberating" still occupied homes and neighborhoods (usually killing the occupants) and moving to contact and engaging JMC guardposts and strongpoints. Additionally, Seminole insurgents have stepped up their guerrilla attacks, usually striking at the southeast and north fringes of Orlando and surrounding towns, looting and killing. The net result is that over the course from 1999 into 2000, the JMC has been diminished from it's original post-TDM strength of approximately 1500 to 702. It is highly probable that New America knows about the AvGas available to the JMC and the two helos it possesses, so a large push to remove them and "liberate" Orlando will come sooner than later. Furthermore, the fuel to fly the aircraft won't last forever, regardless of whether it is used, destroyed or goes bad. Orlando is a comparitive oasis in the middle of an otherwise chaotic state, and the powers that be within the New America structure lust mightily after The City Beautiful and are highly motivated to wrest it from the military's control.
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Old 04-01-2011, 08:00 AM
antimedic antimedic is offline
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NICE. I agree with you 100% about the food production. Even many of the urban counties in this state still have alot of agricultural areas. Plus the sea. Look at all the horse farms in the Ocala area and cattle ranches in NE Florida.
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:13 PM
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Thanks! I've been trying to sort out what police departments throughout Central Florida have actual armored vehicles and how close they are to Orlando; the OPD, OCSO and local Highway Patrol barracks giving theirs over was a natch, but I would tend to think places like Apopka, Volusia County and other more remote locales would look to their own first.

I initially thought about what I had in my rough draft, that an E2C from the run-aground USS Saratoga would have limped to Orlando and be operating as a weather-eye, but I'm saving stuff like that for a possible "Conch Republic" write-up should I ever tweak this to my total satisfaction.

I'm also thinking about lessening the number of casualties somewhat, maybe bring the total strength up to 1000 plus a recruit platoon.

For what it's worth, here's a scratch OOB:

1ST FLORIDA JOINT MILITARY COMMAND ORDER OF BATTLE, c.2000:

1ST ARMORED COMPANY:
1st Platoon : 128 men, 2 heavy weapons teams (M60-D, SAW)
2nd Platoon : 113 men, 2 heavy weapons teams (M60-D)
3rd Platoon : Track 11 (XM728 MICV), Track 22 (M113A1)

2ND ARMORED COMPANY:
1st Platoon: 94 men, 1 heavy weapons team (SAW)
2nd Platoon: 100 men, 1 heavy weapons team (M60-D)
3rd Platoon: Track 33 (M113A1), Track 44 (LAV-150)

1ST RECON COMPANY:
1st Platoon: 77 men, 2 heavy weapons teams (SAW, M60-D)
2nd Platoon: Track 55 (LAV-100), Track 66 (M998)

1ST SUPPORT COMPANY:
1st Platoon: 46 men, 3x M252 82mm Mortar
4x M998
1x HEMETT

2ND SUPPORT COMPANY
1st Platoon: 31 men, 3x M252 82mm Mortar
2x M998

1ST AIR WING
1x Bell Jetranger (improvised skid-mounted M60-D)
1x UH-1 Huey (door-sling mounted M60-D)

...

Drivers not included that's 610 personnel, so I think there'd still be a considerable reserve force at the NTC. The guns on the helos are really for suppression if they happen to fly directly over hostile forces, the JMC knows how fragile and irreplaceable the birds are and consequently they observe only.
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Old 04-01-2011, 04:01 PM
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Nice work.

Personally, I'd go for the smaller numbers and not boosted up to 1000. But that's just me. I like it though.
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Old 04-01-2011, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusilier View Post
Nice work.

Personally, I'd go for the smaller numbers and not boosted up to 1000. But that's just me. I like it though.
It's incumbent on the ORBAT of NA out of St. Pete and the Seminole insurgents. Despite the mobility and firepower if those two other factions are just head and shoulders stronger it'll end up being a bloodbath at which point why bother, unless...hm, maybe characters can be deployed to Orlando to help tip the balance.

We'll see.
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:28 AM
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I like it...well done.
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Old 04-02-2011, 04:10 AM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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Yes very well done and well thought out.
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:20 AM
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I know of 2 M113A1s in NE Florida, ( St. Johns and Flagler Counties), as well as a couple of smaller armoured cars. Not sure if in the TW2000 timeline they would be here though. And if you want to fly an E2, we would have tons of spare parts here in St. Augustine at the Grumman facility. Plus parts for F14, A6E, and KA6D.

I like what I see. You going to be dealing with the Sea Lord up in Jax?
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:29 AM
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Saw this one in a Military Vehicle Collectors magazine, there is a guy in Florida selling his M-41 light tank....

Wonder what else would turn up in someone's garage?
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Old 04-02-2011, 06:31 PM
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Thing about it is, most (all?) civvie ex-Military vehicles (read: tanks) will have cut breechblocks on the main gun. Good for use as heavy armored cars, but that's about it.

But then on the other hand, it's not like New America has a platoon of T80s or anything.
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Old 04-02-2011, 09:19 PM
schnickelfritz schnickelfritz is offline
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What about reenactment groups and bank armored car companies in the Orlando area? I know there is a large Florida group that reenacts the German Panzer Lehr Division and has at least 2 Czech OT-810's. I saw them with my own eyes back in 2000. Plus there are those who do GI and have M2/M3 half tracks, M-3, M-8, and M-20 armored cars, and so on. Occaisionally you see a M-15 or M-16 twin/quad 50 AA half track come up for sale, as you also see the turret itself, which can be towed by something as small as a WW2 Jeep. The possibilities are significant.

One or two quad 50 half tracks are every bit as deadly in 2000AD as they were in 1944.

Collectors and reenactors are everywhere.

-Dave
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Old 04-02-2011, 10:17 PM
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I definitely agree that there's a lot of armor in the hands of private collectors out there - nationwide as well (the aforementioned Mr. Littlefield's collection was/is vast), I just don't think citizens would willingly hand it over during such dicey times.

Plus while keeping, say, an M8 running wouldn't be a huge issue (I guess?), stuff like museum-grade M4s and so on would be more of a liability than an asset as was mentioned in the excellent thread vis-a-vis Fort Knox.

EDIT: Good point about bank armored cars, though.
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:14 PM
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OK guys, I'm feeling a little creative so here's some more stuff: a neighborhood I once lived in. Later, I'll offer up some small adventure hooks and a few rumors. Like elsewhere, very beta, so pick apart at your discretion:

PINE HILLS
The boundaries of Pine Hills are Apopka-Vineland Road to the west, the city limits of Orlando to the east, Clarcona-Ocoee Road to the north, and State Road 408 to the south. It is, or was, a typical southern overdeveloped suburb of strip malls, gas stations and fast food restaurants surrounding residential neighborhoods.

The area began to decline from 1985 onward, as the titular road that winds through the heart of the area was gradually zoned from residential facing to commercial.

The Thanksgiving Day Massacre in 1997 left the region's 38000 residents without power or water, and shortly thereafter without food. As mentioned earlier, some (very light) fallout reached the Pine Hills area. This caused a major panic as the residents of Pine Hills, already on edge and fearing a second Soviet missile strike on Orlando itself were now confronted with the specter of radioactive fallout. The worst crises erupted near Evans High School and surrounding elementary and middle schools as well as municipal buildings and fire/rescue houses: most still featured fallout shelters, but the number and provision were woefully inadequate for the amount of people attempting to get in. Rather than listen to the information the thinly-spread emergency management personnel tried to disseminate regarding where shelters were for given neighborhoods, many people tried to gather with loved ones at already overburdened shelters, or demanded entry into shelters that they happened upon.

The result was chaos: hundreds died in the panic, stampedes and outbreaks of violence, as well as the use of force to stop same by the police.

Perhaps the worst irony was that the fallout was dispersed enough to prevent (relatively) little danger. When the initial alerts were finally lifted, Pine Hills was a shambles. Whole blocks of apartments had caught fire and let burn: few if any firetrucks were capable of operating after the EMP from the Thanksgiving Day attacks, and no-one was in the mood to assist their neighbors with bucket brigades.

As happened across the nation (and indeed the world) huge amounts of looting went on - most grocery stores, gas stations, pawn shops and gun stores were emptied. Civilians remaining in the sprawling Seville Place neighborhood became hostages in their own homes as now even better armed street gangs battled one another settling old grudges once and for all at what was seen to be the end of the world.

By the start of 1998, Pine Hills was a wasteland: two-thousand or so people eke out a living here, fighting over plots of land for growing and what few items of (meager) convenience may still be found here. There are no operational hospitals or doctors offices; Mercy Drive Hospital was overwhelmed and looted, as were all private practices.

Hurricanes took a serious toll from 1998-2000, as many of the quickly assembled houses and apartments were built at the barest minimum of code compliance prior to the war. Thus the entire borough is dotted with ruins, the streets choked with rubble and fallen trees. If there is a lone bright spot it is the orange groves: the north and northwest areas of the neighborhood were once bucolic areas of greenhouses and more importantly orange groves. Even with the poor weather of the winter of 1997/1998, citrus is readily available as food or as a source of fuel. Those who remain in the area grow and sell oranges and other vegetables as they can: most people were suburbanites, ill equipped to deal with the realities of subsistence living.

The 1st JMC does not have any outposts here, but stays in contact with a few civilians and overflies the area periodically. Civil authority here lies in the hands of street gangs, most of whom are distressingly well-armed.

Last edited by raketenjagdpanzer; 04-02-2011 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:20 PM
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Oh, here's a question: the way I have those units broken up, should they be designated battalions with companies (which would subdivide into platoons, then squad, etc.) rather than a company with platoons?
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Old 04-03-2011, 07:07 AM
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since we're talking about Orlando, what has "the Mouse" provided toward recovery? You've got Disney World, Epcot, and a lot of out-of-sight technological underpinnings that may have survived the EMP effects. Would these places have been operating at full capacity at the time of the TDM, considering the looming threat of war?
The complex's surviving underground facilities have been alluded to in the 2300 AD storyline as having been taken over by US intelligence agencies as a cover operations center for the area--"going to the Magic Kingdom" IIRC is the term used by those in the know.
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Old 04-03-2011, 07:51 AM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer View Post
Thing about it is, most (all?) civvie ex-Military vehicles (read: tanks) will have cut breechblocks on the main gun. Good for use as heavy armored cars, but that's about it.

But then on the other hand, it's not like New America has a platoon of T80s or anything.
Remember many of the militia Troop wouldn't stand around wonder if the main gun tube was usable or not. They would want to put as much distant and cover between them and it.

Just some thoughts.
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Old 04-03-2011, 07:59 AM
Abbott Shaull Abbott Shaull is offline
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In the module that deals with the NA holding in Florida, this is exactly what they had to mobilize one of their Cavalry units was to re-purpose some of the Armor Cars they could get running that were used for moving large amounts of money around.

There was a unit using the regular armor that one would see on the street for I think recon and some times as part quick reactionary force. Then there was another unit with larger Armor Cars that they used as APCs for something similar Mechanized Infantry or Armor Cavalry dismounts, depending on your take of their function.

I recommend that if you don't have them, get the modules dealing with US (especially Armies of the Night and the one in Florida), as well as the Free City of Krakow. They will help you figure some of this stuff out. If you don't have access to those three module, maybe someone could get you enough the details to help you out.
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Old 04-03-2011, 08:18 AM
schnickelfritz schnickelfritz is offline
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While there are certainly museums, collectors, and reenactment groups that have tracked armor from both sides still operational, I would thing that the most common armor found outside of federal service in the post TDM T2K would be vintage and surplus (cold war surplus) armored cars belonging in ones and twos to local/county militias. Those don't have the requirements for maintenance and ammunition/main armamment issues that their bigger brothers do and could be fielded and kept in the field with greater effectiveness. Add machine guns or a Mk-19 and go.

A half track or sout car with a couple of machine guns could be all of the difference needed against a biker gang.

I can totally see the federal unit descrbed here (kudos, by the way) working with what passes for local and county militias in the area.

People whenever possible when given no ability/reason to leave an area would attempt to band together to survive. A militia will be as critical to survival in the Orlando area as it is in central Poland. I see law enforcement (active and retired) and veterans, along with your odd soldier home on leave, bading together to forma a municipal militia, which then may be combined to form a larger force across a county. In my county (25mi west of Chicago), the Sheriff has a SWAT team, as do most counties. Larger municipalities have their own. There are American Legion and VFW groups is just about every town in America. I can see these individuals banding together with whatever law enforcement assets remain. Refugees allowed into the area that can be used as manpower will be trained by those with experience. Some of this will arise out of a sense of duty, some from necessity.

You really never know who lives down the street from you sometimes....a lot of Vets don't do the VFW-Legion thing and exist in annonimity. The guy next door to me served in Thailand with the USAF in Vietnam, the son of the lady on the other side of him is an Afghanistan Vet...Army MOS 11-Bravo.

-Dave
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Old 04-03-2011, 08:38 AM
schnickelfritz schnickelfritz is offline
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Bank armored cars:
With the the Orlando theme parks (Sea World, universal Studios, and WDW), I see there a significant need for bank armored car companies, even though many guest these days pay via plastic.

On the subject of Disney World, what are the thoughts on how it would be used after 1996? I can't see too many taking vacations to WDW (even me, who goes there a lot) once the war starts in earnest, and especially once the nukes start falling. Travelling 500-1000-1500+ miles for a vacation when that's going on just seems unbelieveable to me to put it mildly. Bat-$h!t Crazy would be more accurate.

Would the Disney Resort be used as a billet and/or an R&R destination for returning/recovering military personnel? keep in mind, they have one hotel (Shades of Green) dedicated to retired/active US Military Personnel and their families.

The Resort area does have limited avenues of entry...I could see the State Police/Military being able to keep looters/biker gangs/etc out of WDW with moderate to good success. So what damage would you see WDW suffering post TDM? Most of the computers that run everything, at least at the parks, are in underground areas and would be shielded, at least somewhat from EMP.

I have a hard time believing that most of the remaining computer facilities wouldn't be in facilities that arean't hardened to some degree. They must keep working, even on a Class 3 or 4 Hurricane. They do; I was there during Hurricane Wilma several years ago. Things worked pretty well considering, and we only lost about 3/4 of a day to the storm.

Also, keep in mind the presence of FOUR steam engines at WDW, with 3 present at any given time (1 off site per year for a rail-up overhaul). With war afoot, that unit would probably still be on property. Given time and manpower, rail could be laid to the Magic Kingdom from the nearest live rail. Oil for fuel could probably be salvaged from a variety of sources (motor oil recycling for one), as all of the engines have been converted to use oil.

Any ideas?

-Dave
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Old 04-03-2011, 10:38 AM
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Good points all about Disney; the chief issue with that is that Disney got a dusting of fallout - I'm not up on my disaster physics, how long would it remain "hot"?

Disney itself is honeycombed with underground tunnels, and in addition to those are underground op-centers, a small medical facility and it provides most of its own power - Disney is largely off the Orange/Osceola grid thanks to extensive power generation through trash burning. That makes it a valuable asset. Some of the computer systems may well have survived the EMP.

The parks themselves are actually nice fortresses (and I'm not talking Cinderalla's castle either). They're double fenced, surrounded by very inhospitable marshes and swamps, some areas are flat out walled off, and entry and other access can be controlled pretty easily.

The park does a brisk business on holidays and actually sees park attendance go up during times of crisis (9/11 and it's impact on travel being the exception): lots of folks want to just get away from it all. However everyone panicked and got the hell out of Dodge once fallout warnings were issued. Most of the military guests (and there were some, but few) at Shades of Green would have tried to get back to their duty posts or back to families elsewhere, so I can't see a very large contingent (more than a token few) staying in the Orlando area.

Arnold Palmer hospital is nearby to Disney (actually closer to Orlando), but may have been stripped by Osceola County and looters.

I'm not up on my train knowledge so I'm not sure how feasible it would be to extend train tracks out to the park. The Monorails would of course be toast.
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Old 04-03-2011, 07:54 PM
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Also, keep in mind the presence of FOUR steam engines at WDW, with 3 present at any given time (1 off site per year for a rail-up overhaul). With war afoot, that unit would probably still be on property. Given time and manpower, rail could be laid to the Magic Kingdom from the nearest live rail. Oil for fuel could probably be salvaged from a variety of sources (motor oil recycling for one), as all of the engines have been converted to use oil.
It would have to be easier to convert the burners to wood-fired than trying to source fuel oil, not to mention the fact that you'd conserve oils for use in engines that can only them as fuels/lubricants. Fabricating a wood burner for a steam boiler would not be a difficult undertaking.
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Old 04-04-2011, 12:02 AM
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It would have to be easier to convert the burners to wood-fired than trying to source fuel oil, not to mention the fact that you'd conserve oils for use in engines that can only them as fuels/lubricants. Fabricating a wood burner for a steam boiler would not be a difficult undertaking.
Yeah any thing that uses Steam, I would think would be converted to wood fire than continue to use the limited oil fuel. The oil fuel would be to valuable for other types of vehicle to keep them mobile.
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Old 04-04-2011, 05:28 AM
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Keep in mund that the "oil" typically used in an oil burning steam locomotive is as heavy as it gets....as step or two up from tar. If you look it up, many of them, especially as used on the Union Pacific, needed a steam heater apparatus to make it flow it was so thick. I believe it was called "Bunker C." Unless you have specialized refining equipment, most of the "fuel oil" available would have no real use other than for burning, and weed control, I guess.

I'm thinking that the WDW staff would have stockpiled what virgin oil it could and would also have access to a large quantitiy of used motor oil that could be filtered for this purpose, given the sheer size of the Disney vehicle fleet.

If used, lightly filtered motor oil is useable, more could be sourced from abandoned gas/service stations throughout the Orlando area. Missions to guard tanker trucks or obtain tanker trucks from recycling facilities (like those at Safety-Kleen) could be adventures in themselves.

As far as the Monorails go, they are indeed fragile and are stored in a semi-hardened facility in the same building as the steam trains. With the runup to full nuclear war, I would imagine Monorail service would have been curtailed and the units placed in storage at the time of the TDM, if for no other reason than to cut electrical power useage.

-Dave
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Old 04-04-2011, 05:48 AM
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I know what bunker oil is. We've had long discussions in this forum before about POL. I still believe that if other fuels were available (wood, combustible garbage, non-edible harvest waste for example) they would be used in a steam powered locomotive in preference to any kind of oil. Reason being that it wouldn't be hard to have a locomotive burning fuels other than oils. But it would be hard or impossible to do without oil for other purposes. See what I'm saying?

In any case there are cleverer people than me that made some great points about POL in previous threads. I highly recommend that all new members spend a few hours trawling through the thread map the sticky the second from the top of the main thread list. Kato has very kindly made it easy to find some of those excellent older threads on a variety of interesting topics.
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:13 AM
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I doubt there would be much virgin fuel oil available, most of what you could use would come via used motor oil, which should be available in abundance.

Convering an oil burning steam boiler to solid fule isn't as easy as it might seem...once you remove the oil apparatus, you need to fabricate a grate and ash pan, among other items.

All 4 Disney Locomotives originally burned solid fuel when they were in service in Mexico. Disney converted them to oil for ease of maintenance and better control of the fire.

Am I wrong in the group's opinion in the belief that a large metro area such as Orlando, there would not be used motor oils available in storage tanks at shops and recycling facilities?

-Dave
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Old 04-04-2011, 07:10 AM
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I think you'll find that most used oil gets recycled/disposed of fairly quickly. With the progression of the war, it would be more and more important that this is done as soon as possible, so it's extremely doubtful you'll find large reserves of used oil anywhere.
At best scroungers might come up with a few drums of it that were missed by previous visitors.
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Old 04-04-2011, 09:25 PM
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Yes, I believe that most oil-lube shops would have only a limited storage capacity. However, once the lights go out and places are abandoned, especially trucking companies and school bus firms, you probably could get something useable right there, if you had the truck to pump it out....

Getting off the sidetrack (pun intended) of fuel oil, I'm curious to get people's opinions on what might have become of the Walt Disney World Complex in T2K just before and then after society grouond to a standstill.

I cannot get past the immense amount of cash that Disney could throw at the problem from the beginning of the Sino-Soviet war until TDM.

With the proper planning, forethought, and their resources, I see them as a bit of an oasis in the wasteland that is Florida in 2000.

-Dave
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:30 PM
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For helicopters at the time, OCSO had a pair of OH-58C Kiowas. SN 71-20384 (N-number 384CS) was delivered in 1996 and SN 70-15432 (N-number 82844) was delivered in 1995. They also had a Bell 407 (N-number 407KB) delivered in 1998.

They also purchased a HMMWV using drug-forfeiture money in 1997. At least one of FHP's LAVs was acquired in 1998, so it may not exist in the T2K timeline (they bought it for $250 from DRMO). OCSO's XM734 was acquired from Israel, but I don't remember when. It's now at the Vietnam War Museum in eastern Orange County (southeast of UCF). 1994 was when OCSO was converting from revolvers to 9mm Berettas, so both may still be available - I don't remember when the cutover finished.

The Orlando Police Department Mounted Patrol would have 7 horses available in 1997 (the eighth horse, Partner's Pride, died in March 1997 of a heart attack). I think they were already at the Rio Grande stable by the mid-90s.

NASA had 4 of the M113 APCs for firefighting and rescue operations (generally three deployed for a launch, two with firefighting crews and one empty except for the driver to take the astronauts if they had to evacuate). It's possible not all of them survived, though (or that some were taken back into active service).
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Old 12-04-2016, 06:59 PM
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I thought of another place to raid for equipment - Fantasy of Flight in Polk City has a huge number of airworthy classical planes, ranging in size from a Fiesler Storch to a Short Sunderland flying boat. There are also tons of spare parts, including a warehouse full of engines (which I've been lucky enough to get to tour). None of it's stuff that would have been useful during the Twilight War, but in the aftermath, they would be useful, particularly since most of them should be able to fly (at least at moderate altitudes) on 87 octane MOGAS (high altitudes might risk vapor lock). Unfortunately, the only synfuel facility I know of in Florida is an experimental facility in Okeechobee that opened in 2012, far too late for the canon timelines, and Florida has no oil refineries. Personally, I wouldn't want to try running aircraft on alcohol, even with appropriate plumbing changes, since the reduction in power and endurance would add risk.
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Old 12-05-2016, 03:43 PM
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I thought of another place to raid for equipment - Fantasy of Flight in Polk City has a huge number of airworthy classical planes, ranging in size from a Fiesler Storch to a Short Sunderland flying boat. There are also tons of spare parts, including a warehouse full of engines (which I've been lucky enough to get to tour). None of it's stuff that would have been useful during the Twilight War, but in the aftermath, they would be useful, particularly since most of them should be able to fly (at least at moderate altitudes) on 87 octane MOGAS (high altitudes might risk vapor lock). Unfortunately, the only synfuel facility I know of in Florida is an experimental facility in Okeechobee that opened in 2012, far too late for the canon timelines, and Florida has no oil refineries. Personally, I wouldn't want to try running aircraft on alcohol, even with appropriate plumbing changes, since the reduction in power and endurance would add risk.
Polk City is pretty close to New America territory; if anything they might have raided it first.
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