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Old 09-29-2010, 10:07 AM
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Default 2nd Marine Division - Norther Poland

I'm in the process of setting up for playing T2K for the first time in years. I've been going back and re-reading a lot the the books and material especially with regards to the last offensive in the year 2000 so that I can better understand the overall situation in Poland when the game actually starts in Kalisz.

One part that I'd like some input on regards the spearhead that pushed across northern Poland and specifically the 2nd Marine Division. Some of the things I'm wondering about is the depth of the success of this spearhead? Where did it stop? Could it have turned south prior to July? Where did the Marines land? How far did the Marines advance? And could have lead elements of any of these divisions, especially the Marines, linked up with the 5th Mech Div?
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:56 AM
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I previously collected a bunch of info into a timeline, which may not be 100% accurate, but gives some idea. See below.... I cut out a lot of stuff but it is still quite long.



By the spring of 2000, the armies of Europe have settled into their cantonment system.

April 8: German 3rd Army and US 11th Corps begin the last offensive.
consisting of the German III Corp (6th PGD, 21st PGD, 29th PD, Jutland (Danish) Mechanized Division) and XI US Corp (5th ID, 8th ID, 50th AD, 2nd Marine Div, 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade and the 116th ACR) were to sweep the Baltic coastline clear of Pact forces.

For whatever reason, the US 5th ID found itself the spearhead, tasked with making the initial breakthrough and then bearing south in an attempt to outflank and cut supply lines to Soviet forces close to the German border (the same ones facing the British).

Meanwhile amphibious landings were to be made by the 2nd Marine Div across the river estuaries of northern Poland with the 8th ID heading further east to cut lines of any hope of reinforcement from Russia. The 50th Armored Division was to fill the gap between the 5th and 8th while 116th ACR and Can 4th Mech Bde were held in reserve


The Polish units directly in the path of the juggernaut US XI Corps, simply melted away in the face of far superior technical and numeric forces rather than submitting to the certainty of defeat and destruction.

Heading north in good order they entered the area between Gdansk and Slupsk to begin harassing the northern flank of the offensive. Although cut of from the rest of the Pact forces, their supply needs were minimal due to low numbers and high reliance on horses. Food was also plentiful with rich fishing grounds to three sides.

With the Polish withdrawal north, XI Corps were forced to commit the 50th AD to hold them in check until the Canadians and 116th ACR could be brought up to assist with eliminating them.

The Canadians and bulk of 116th ACR however had been called upon to assist the British to hold an increasingly restless Soviet Army. The Germans were due to relieve the Canadians and 116th in place within a week, freeing them to join the 50th AD, crush the under equipped Poles and catch up with the remainder of the XI Corp.

June: The US 2nd Marine Div commenced it’s move by sea to assault the area from the ruins of Gdansk to Elblag. Although the move was successful, valuable equipment was lost when a supporting vessel struck a sea mine and sunk taking nearly 30% of the divisions stores with it. Fortunately almost all the divisions personnel and armour made it to shore, but within a week were running short on fuel.
Ammunition expenditure had been minimal due to the absence of any enemy opposition beyond local militias, while food was plentiful in the mainly agricultural floodplains.
Faced with the growing fuel shortage and lack of significant enemy units within the area to raid for more, the divisional commander chose to move westward with the aim of linking up with the 50th AD and lending what support he could against the trapped Poles.

Jun 19 - 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) begins a converging drive on the Bydgoszcz and Torun area in Poland.
Contact is made with partisans of the 2nd Polish Free Legion in Tuchola.

Jun 21 - Advance elements of the 5th Inf Div reach Torun.

Jun 29 - After a week of regrouping, the 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) heads south from Torun.

Jun 30 - 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) closes up on Wloclawek.


July 1 - Advanced elements of the 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) closes on Krosniewice, Poland.

Jul 11 - German 3rd Army is attacked by 1st Polish Tank Army from Pila
Soviet 22nd Cavalry Army overruns Torun. Soviet 10th Guards Tank Division is attacked and overrun by elements of the Soviet 22nd Cavalry Army, taking severe casualties and losing the last of its tanks.

8th US ID had moved far beyond it’s originally intended area chasing fleeing rear area Pact units, the 50th was stalled, holding the Polish forces in place and waiting for the Canadians and 116th ACR to arrive, and the 2nd Marines were virtually immobile but slowly crawling westward. The last reported position of the 8th was, amazingly, somewhere in western Russia.


July 17-18 - Battle of Kalisz.
US 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) is destroyed, the troops scattering.
Soviet 124th Motor Rifle Division is shattered.
Soviet 21st Motorized Rifle Division and Polish 10th Tank Division lead the battle

As the sudden appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army had stirred up the entire European front with pressure being brought to bear everywhere, the 3rd Army commander had no choice but to cut his losses and attempt to consolidate what few gains had been made.
The German III Corp was given orders to move into positions supporting British and other German units, but before this order could be carried out, the remaining Polish units not trapped by the US 50th AD or in contact with the remnants of the US 5th ID, began exerting northward pressure around the eastern flank of the Canadians and 116th ACR.

Soviet units held in reserve moved northward directly against the Canadians forcing them back towards the coast.
What had initially been conceived as a deep penetration into central Poland via the Baltic coast, followed by right swing to cut off Pact forces had suddenly turned into a gigantic trap for the Americans and Canadians as Pact divisions forced their way towards Szczecin.

With the German units already on the road elsewhere the race was on between the Americans and Soviets – if the Soviets reached the coastline first, the entire XI Corps would be cut off.

The 2nd Marine made contact with the right (east) flank of the 50th AD just in time. Fuel reserves were transferred and suddenly the marines were mobile once more. The bulk of the 50th ADs fighting force was hurriedly redeployed southward to screen the 2nd Marines move from the much more dangerous Soviets (the marines taking over responsibility for holding the Poles back).
Meanwhile the Canadians and 116th ACR fell back under increasing pressure from combined Soviet and Polish forces, towards the Corp HQ at Karlino, unable to do more than slow the oncoming mass of troops and tanks.
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:05 AM
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That's more than I've found so far. Besides the amphibious landing I'd only been able to find in the US Vehicles sourcebook that the 2nd Marine Div whereabouts were unknown and unit size was unknown. At least according to this The Marines stayed close to the coast.

Great info, thanks
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Old 09-29-2010, 06:47 PM
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Default 2000 Spring Offensive by the 3rd German Army

I wrote up the followed a year or two back after exhaustive research into the canon material. Although much of the material is my own invention, it is rooted VERY strongly in the published material. Nothing contradicts the books in any way. Reposted for your convieniance!
Atiff's post is a summary of this on the whole.

This is an assessment of the German 3rd Army spring offensive, why it was undertaken and how it was that the sudden appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army at Lodz was so absolutely disastrous not only to the US 5th ID but to the offensive as a whole.

The 3rd Army, consisting of the German III Corp (6th PGD, 21st PGD, 29th PD, Jutland (Danish) Mechanised Division) and XI US Corp (5th ID, 8th ID, 50th AD, 2nd MARDIV, 4th Canadian Mechanised Brigade and the 116th ACR) were to sweep the Baltic coastline clear of Pact forces. Numbering approximately 30,000 troops and over 185 tanks it was a force more than capable of achieving it's goals, especially when it is considered that no major operations had been conducted in about a year (time in which fuel, food and ammunition was being stockpiled).

At the commencement of the offensive, Pact forces in the area consisted of little more than the remnants of almost all Poland’s military forces (predominately cavalry with mostly 40+ year old tanks). Total Polish strength was barely 20,000 men and 28 tanks. Between them and Czechoslovakia was the might of the Soviet Army - virtually impregnable for the forces of NATO in 2000.

Holding the right flank of the starting position of the offensive was the British army (region of Berlin and Frankfurt). Facing them across well prepared positions was the northern end of the Soviet line. It would have been the British responsibility to hold these Soviet positions with those units already in contact while swinging their reserves up and around behind the 3rd Army to cover their rear. Due to the appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army approximately 700km to the east, these units never moved.

The plan was simple enough in concept and should have been almost simpler in execution. XI US Corp was to lead, perhaps due to the usual American desire to be predominant, maybe because they had been resting longer, or perhaps it was as simple as them being in the best position to begin with. For whatever reason, the US 5th ID found itself the spearhead, tasked with making the initial breakthrough and then bearing south in an attempt to outflank and cut supply lines to Soviet forces close to the German border (the same ones facing the British).

Meanwhile amphibious landings were to be made by the 2nd MARDIV across the river estuaries of northern Poland with the 8th ID heading further east to cut lines of any hope of reinforcement from Russia. The 50th Armoured Division was to fill the gap between the 5th and 8th while 116th ACR and Can 4th Mech Bde were held in reserve.

The remainder of the 3rd Army were tasked with filling the gap between the 5th ID and the British forces. They, like the British, had barely reached the start line recently vacated by the US units before the Soviet 4th Guards Army screwed everything up.

The Polish units directly in the path of the juggernaut US XI Corps, simply melted away in the face of far superior technical and numeric forces rather than submitting to the certainty of defeat and destruction. Heading north in good order they entered the area between Gdansk and Slupsk to begin harassing the northern flank of the offensive. Although cut of from the rest of the Pact forces, their supply needs were minimal due to low numbers and high reliance on horses. Food was also plentiful with rich fishing grounds to three sides. With the Polish withdrawal north, XI Corps were forced to commit the 50th AD to hold them in check until the Canadians and 116th ACR could be brought up to assist with eliminating them.

The Canadians and bulk of 116th ACR however had been called upon to assist the British to hold an increasingly restless Soviet Army. The Germans were due to relieve the Canadians and 116th in place within a week, freeing them to join the 50th AD, crush the under equipped Poles and catch up with the remainder of the XI Corp.

The US 2nd MARDIV commenced it’s move by sea to assault the area from the ruins of Gdansk to Elblag escorted by the only US Destroyer still afloat in within five thousand miles, the USS John Hancock. Although the move was successful, valuable equipment was lost when a supporting vessel struck a sea mine and sunk taking nearly 30% of the divisions stores with it. Fortunately almost all the divisions personnel and armour made it to shore, but within a week were running short on fuel. Ammunition expenditure had been minimal due to the absence of any enemy opposition beyond local militias, while food was plentiful in the mainly agricultural floodplains.

Faced with the growing fuel shortage and lack of significant enemy units within the area to raid for more, the divisional commander chose to move westward with the aim of linking up with the 50th AD and lending what support he could against the trapped Poles.

By the middle of July the situation had changed dramatically for the worse. The US 5th ID was about to face annihilation, the 8th had moved far beyond it’s originally intended area chasing fleeing rear area Pact units, the 50th was stalled, holding the Polish forces in place and waiting for the Canadians and 116th ACR to arrive, and the 2nd Marines were virtually immobile but slowly crawling westward. There was nobody who could rescue the beleaguered 5th ID and the last reported position of the 8th was, amazingly, somewhere in western Russia.

As the sudden appearance of the Soviet 4th Guards Army had stirred up the entire European front with pressure being brought to bear everywhere, the 3rd Army commander had no choice but to cut his losses and attempt to consolidate what few gains had been made. The German III Corp was given orders to move into positions supporting British and other German units, but before this order could be carried out, the remaining Polish units not trapped by the US 50th AD or in contact with the remnants of the US 5th ID, began exerting northward pressure around the eastern flank of the Canadians and 116th ACR. Soviet units held in reserve moved northward directly against the Canadians forcing them back towards the coast.

What had initially been conceived as a deep penetration into central Poland via the Baltic coast, followed by right swing to cut off Pact forces had suddenly turned into a gigantic trap for the Americans and Canadians as Pact divisions forced their way towards Szczecin. With the German units already on the road elsewhere the race was on between the Americans and Soviets – if the Soviets reached the coastline first, the entire XI Corps would be cut off.

The 2nd MARDIV made contact with the right (east) flank of the 50th AD just in time. Fuel reserves were transferred and suddenly the marines were mobile once more. The bulk of the 50th ADs fighting force was hurriedly redeployed southward to screen the 2nd Marines move from the much more dangerous Soviets (the marines taking over responsibility for holding the Poles back).

Meanwhile the Canadians and 116th ACR fell back under increasing pressure from combined Soviet and Polish forces, towards the Corp HQ at Karlino, unable to do more than slow the oncoming mass of troops and tanks.

Aftermath
The XI Corp is cut off from friendly forces not so much by the Soviets as by the terrain – the Oder river and numerous interconnected lakes form a water barrier from Szczecin to the Baltic. The Corp is still in contact by sea with Germany, but any move to rejoin allied forces would require an offensive against Pact divisions to the south and east of the irradiated ruins of Szczecin. Some supply is possible by available shipping, but there is not enough capacity remaining after the spring debacle to withdraw even a small part of the Corp. Port facilities are likewise limited with most supplies having to be brought directly onto the beaches by small boat.
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Old 09-29-2010, 08:54 PM
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Hi LB,

I knew I got it from somewhere, but couldn't remember where... I was scavenging a lot, and lost track of the sources. Kudos to you!

Andrew
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Old 09-29-2010, 09:34 PM
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Thanks. I had a week or so free and the time on my hands to research it all...
Even checked out suitability of the ports along the Polish coast for resupply operations or even landing of heavy equipment - trucks, tanks, other vehicles (by 2000 in canon there's almost nothing left capable of dealing with more than small fishing boats that doesn't glow in the dark).
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:36 PM
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leg did you ever work out what ships other then the Hancock ?
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:16 PM
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Thanks Leg, great stuff there. Are there any maps anywhere that show all these movements?
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Old 09-30-2010, 12:06 AM
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The USS Tarawa was definately involved - an Osprey is shown in the Nautical & Aviation colour plates as being from it and in Poland/Baltic in the summer of 2000.
There is no other reference anywhere of warships in the region.

I have made the assumption that the Tarawa was sunk (loosing all those supplies) and the rest of the Division travelled on fishing boats and other small craft. Might be a few LCT type vessels though.

I haven't created a map of the movements and frankly don't think I have the skill to do it justice. I'd be very happy if somebody took on that task.

There's also very little information on German movements during the offensive. My presumption was (as written) they were engaged by Pact forces before they could get very far.

Part of the reason I had the 2nd Marines withdraw was that they were described in Going Home as having grown as a direct result of the offensive - picked up more troops and tanks. This to me says they swept up stragglers as the rest of XI Corps withdrew westward as their supply lines were threatened and news of the 5th's destruction came through.
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Old 09-30-2010, 06:46 AM
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The Marines in the area are also said to have a Leopard tank in their possession (in the OOB in US Combat Vehicle Handbook, I believe), which implies that possibly either the Marines and the Germans were operating in the same area, or that stragglers from one of the German units made their way to the Marines' lines. (Or the Marines just found it, abandoned.)
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Old 09-30-2010, 06:59 AM
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One of the first Challenge magazines published after T2K was first released had an article entitled "Looter's Guide to the Baltic Coast" which gave some more info on various towns / cities in Northern Poland. Might be info in there that might be useful?
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Old 09-30-2010, 07:09 AM
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I guess I'll be reading 'Going Home' today to freshen my memory up on what's there.

One of the things I'm kinda curious about as I read this information is that the offensive began and was suppose to cross accross the Northern portion of Poland. The impression I've gotten from the books is that the XI Corps was spread from the Baltic coast to close to the central part of Poland. The 3rd German Army seems to have stayed along the Baltic, though from rereading this a couple of times, they may have launched more from the center since that seems to be where the bulk of the Soviet and Polish forces seem to have been placed in this region.

So I guess my question is, and why I was wondering if there was a map showing this offensive, if the 5th Div was the spearhead how did they get pushed so far south while everyone else stayed to the north, and what path did the 8th Div follow to get so far into the interior?
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Old 09-30-2010, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
The USS Tarawa was definately involved - an Osprey is shown in the Nautical & Aviation colour plates as being from it and in Poland/Baltic in the summer of 2000.
There is no other reference anywhere of warships in the region.

I have made the assumption that the Tarawa was sunk (loosing all those supplies) and the rest of the Division travelled on fishing boats and other small craft. Might be a few LCT type vessels though.

I haven't created a map of the movements and frankly don't think I have the skill to do it justice. I'd be very happy if somebody took on that task.

There's also very little information on German movements during the offensive. My presumption was (as written) they were engaged by Pact forces before they could get very far.

Part of the reason I had the 2nd Marines withdraw was that they were described in Going Home as having grown as a direct result of the offensive - picked up more troops and tanks. This to me says they swept up stragglers as the rest of XI Corps withdrew westward as their supply lines were threatened and news of the 5th's destruction came through.
The Nautical/aviation book says in the color plate notes on page 57 "attached to the Atlantic fleet in 2000" it says nothing about summer 2000 or Poland. with the general lack of fuel in the world, I'd have to say its sitting on the US east cost out of fuel

if you assume it was off the cost of Poland and carrying the 2nd mardiv. then you can't sink it until it offloads on the beach. if you do you've just sunk half the divisions men and all of its tanks, AFV's and other heavy equipment. Tarawa class LHA's carry 1700 troops, 100 tanks and 160 trucks. I can't see what other ships would be left that could carry the men, tanks, AFV's, trucks and heavy equipment. A much better ship to sink imo would be a Charleston class amphibious cargo ship. carrying only 360 troops but 10,000 tones of fuel and supply's.


after digging out my T2K books and looking through them I can see no ships off the cost of Poland. if I was using "cannon " only I'd not have them move massively by sea, I'd have them leap frog down the cost using the 30-40 amtracks they have along with a few LCU-2000's and fishing boats, maybe add in a German cargo ship. that would also be the best way for them to pick up the tanks and equipment from 7 countries talked about in Going Home.


just my 2 cents
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by oldschoolgm View Post
So I guess my question is, and why I was wondering if there was a map showing this offensive, if the 5th Div was the spearhead how did they get pushed so far south while everyone else stayed to the north, and what path did the 8th Div follow to get so far into the interior?
We ran around and around on this in a thread or two last summer, IIRC. The major consensus was that the Germans weren't supporting this one too thoroughly before it started, and as soon as things got rough, they backed out and left XI US Corps out there. Possibly, they blew some bridges over the lower Oder to cover their tracks. The sudden appearance of the 4th Guards Tank Army was a terrible shock.

My contention was that the whole 2000 offensive may have been inspired by the ambitions of Polish exiles, who declared that the Poles wouldn't fight for the Soviets anymore and would defect en masse if the Americans would give them a big enough show of force. The easy success of the initial push reinforced this conclusion, and the XI US Corps commander (I suggested his chief of staff was of Polish ancestry, perhaps with connections to the Polish Free Congress) shoved as hard as he could in what appeared to be the war-winning move. The 5th MD went off on an attempt to seize Lodz (which included the cover for the DIA's Reset operation), and the 8th MD went further east, in pursuit of rumors of similar Lithuanian defections. Some units did defect, Soviet and Polish, and may have been trying to get to positions to help the push.
When the 4th GTA blasted the 5th Division and some Polish units rallied to fight back at the Germans, it all fell apart. The German III Corps and/or Third Army commanders felt it was some kind of trap, and acted to keep their own forces and territory from falling into it. If there were rumors of the "Red Bear" Chelkov behind it, that could certainly have reinforced it.
Was the whole operation a KGB feint to draw out NATO's reserves? Was it an honest effort by the Polish Free Congress? If so, was it rolled up at the last minute by the KGB/GRU, or were they just overly optimistic about generals' willingness to change sides? Was it the presence of the Germans behind the Americans that caused some Polish generals to change their minds about defecting?
In short, I project a "Bridge Too Far" air about the whole operation. A grand, war-winning gamble if it worked, but built on what turned out to be a foundation of sand.
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
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The Nautical/aviation book says in the colour plate notes on page 57 "attached to the Atlantic fleet in 2000" it says nothing about summer 2000 or Poland. with the general lack of fuel in the world, I'd have to say its sitting on the US east coast out of fuel
Why? It's a combat vessel. If it was short of fuel, it makes much more sense for it to be in Europe than halfway around the world nowhere near a battlefield. Same goes for all the remnants of the Atlantic fleet.

The Tarawa had to have been sunk sometime before TF34 otherwise (to me at least) it makes much more sense for it to have been the flagship rather than an old destroyer.

To make the situation on land make any sense, the 2nd Marines had to have a reason to either not carry out their amphibious landing in the first place (thereby removing a vital element from the 8th IDs drive eastward) or minimise the effectiveness of an apparently very strong formation. Removal of their fuel supply does just that while retaining the strength we see in Going Home. Perhaps Tarawa wasn't carrying the fuel reserve, perhaps it was a civilian tanker, but either way whatever vessel was carrying it has to go to the bottom. Calling it the Tarawa solves the problem we face several months later when TF34 is formed.
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So I guess my question is, and why I was wondering if there was a map showing this offensive, if the 5th Div was the spearhead how did they get pushed so far south while everyone else stayed to the north, and what path did the 8th Div follow to get so far into the interior?
These are questions I grappled with when I was writing. The ONLY explanation I was able to come up with for the 8th was that the 2nd Marines provided the necessary support and amphibious capabilities to get across the numerous rivers and wetlands in northern Poland.

I would suggest reading through http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...erman+III+corp Many of the issues have already been discussed there in some depth.
Oh, and there's a map there too!
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:35 AM
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When the 4th GTA blasted the 5th Division and some Polish units rallied to fight back at the Germans, it all fell apart. The German III Corps and/or Third Army commanders felt it was some kind of trap, and acted to keep their own forces and territory from falling into it. If there were rumors of the "Red Bear" Chelkov behind it, that could certainly have reinforced it.
I'm not sure if it was mentioned in that thread or another that there's some evidence that points towards a possible Pact offensive being slated for around the same time. I think it was proposed that the Nato offensive kicked off first causing the Pact to rapidly revise their plans and instead of striking directly westward into souther Germany, push up north to cut off XI Corp. The Germans were able to back out quickly enough - the US and Canadians were already too deep into Poland.
It's the Germans who would have been responsible for providing flank protection and perhaps press south once XI Corp had a defendable line along the Vistula (or thereabouts).

As the Admiral says, potentially a war winner, but one that rapidly turned sour with the appearance of the 4th GTA and counterattack near the German/Poland border.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:11 AM
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The Tarawa had to have been sunk sometime before TF34 otherwise (to me at least) it makes much more sense for it to have been the flagship rather than an old destroyer.
Leg, firstly I agree with you that the Tarawa would be a logical choice ro serve as TF34 flagship if it was available.

However, at the risk of sounding pedantic, it doesn't have to have been sunk - it just needs to have been rendered inoperable. I'd suggest it's possible that it successfully completed its mission in the Baltic, offloading whatever elements of the 2nd Division it happened to be carrying, then headed back to potentially safer waters as it was too important an asset to be kept in harm's way any longer than was absolutely neccessary. Perhaps on its way back to those safer waters, it encountered a situation that left it severely damaged (hit a mine, attacked by torpedo boats or maybe even an airstrike - if avgas were available, the chance to knock out the Tarawa would surely warrant its use?) but rather than sinking it managed to limp into a port, where it is currently stranded? Maybe it even made Bremerhaven, but was left behind when TF34 sailed?

To be honest, I'm really just thinking of scenario possibilities such as a team of PC's being sent on a mission to retrieve something that was left on the ship?
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:44 AM
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Thanks for linking that other forum thread, that thread has talked about a lot of specific questions that were starting to pop up for me. The map is awesome in that it gives me a good visual of how the offensive began and it's objectives.

Between what you guys have given me and what I've found on my own I now have a lot to build upon to really give my game some life when I'm ready to start it.

I'll start a new thread for my next set of ideas and questions.

Great stuff guys, thanks again.
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Old 09-30-2010, 07:33 PM
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... it doesn't have to have been sunk - it just needs to have been rendered inoperable.
Very true, however if only damaged, I'd be inclined to locate it in an area it's resources cannot be used during Omega (or have the majority of it's useful C & C facilities destroyed).
My thoughts are that if damaged, it should be to approximately the same degree as the ship in Satellite Down (can't think of the name off hand).
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:20 PM
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Very true, however if only damaged, I'd be inclined to locate it in an area it's resources cannot be used during Omega (or have the majority of it's useful C & C facilities destroyed).
My thoughts are that if damaged, it should be to approximately the same degree as the ship in Satellite Down (can't think of the name off hand).
that's what I'd do, have it off the beach of kolobrzeg. like
i said before, you'd have to let it off load 2ndMardiv's heavy equipment before sunk. maybe have a commando raid burn it....
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:31 PM
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Have it torpedoed by the Barrikada (the Soviet sub in Boomer), just to tie it in with published T2K materials.
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:31 PM
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the problem with the TARAWA is that in the baltic, it would be a bomb magnet. odds are, it is on the bottom, if it wasnt sunk in the north atlantic

bot on the more interesting side, the 2nd Marine Div wouldnt be alone. the Volksmarine had the 28th and 29th MRR trained and equipped as Naval infantry and they also had a number of LST's and other landing craft.

(found althis out whent researching a Rostock sourcebook i was creating)
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:37 PM
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I doubt the 28th and 29th would be needed to assist the Marines once they're on the ground (the 2nd Marines are one of the largest units left in 2000), but their naval transport resources would be very useful getting them to the AO.

The Barrikada has been stuck in the ice too long I think for it to be a viable option to remove the Tarawa. Perhaps a coastal torpedo boat, or even just a mine would be enough given the lack of supporting vessels?

I can see Pact naval assets wreaking havok on the marine's transports. A few small motorboats armed with AT-4's, RPGs and whatever else they could scrounge up would be a real worry for the fleet commander.
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Old 10-01-2010, 04:58 AM
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Very true, however if only damaged, I'd be inclined to locate it in an area it's resources cannot be used during Omega (or have the majority of it's useful C & C facilities destroyed).
My thoughts are that if damaged, it should be to approximately the same degree as the ship in Satellite Down (can't think of the name off hand).
Agreed.

Actually, I should have looked at a map before suggesting Tarawa might have made it back to Bremerhaven, as that would have entailed going all the way around Denmark which strikes me as unlikely - it would burn more fuel and expose the ship to the risk of attack for a longer period (I'm making the assumption that Sovs would have made sure that the Kiel Canal was rendered impassable early in the War).

Whilst I like Dog6's idea of having her sit just off Kolobrzeg (and perhaps intact enough to still serve a useful purpose, possibly even serving as XI Corps HQ), it's equally possible she could have made one of the German Baltic ports such as Lubeck, Rostock, or Kiel all of which (going from memory) are garrisoned by non US NATO units. Perhaps one of those units have "requistioned" her and are working to get her operational (dependent on the extent of the damage) so they can use her for their own purposes (and making sure that the Americans think she is far more damaged than she actually is). Even if she was never able to put to sea again, I'm sure she would still be a valuable resource for the Germans or the Danes.

There's also the question of what happens to the crew. Dependent on how many actually got off (and where) I'd expect lots of them to have been drafted into various XI Corps units.
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Old 10-01-2010, 03:18 PM
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There's also the question of what happens to the crew. Dependent on how many actually got off (and where) I'd expect lots of them to have been drafted into various XI Corps units.
Maybe that's why the 2nd Marine Division has the high rifle strength that it now does?
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:50 AM
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Regarding the Tarawa, if it were beached or otherwise not on the bottom, it would not be in a port in Poland - there simply aren't any not in Pact hands which are capable of taking such a large vessel (all too small, too shallow, too nuked, or a combination of the three).

The crew of the ship, once immobilised/sunk/etc would almost certainly have joined the nearest friendly unit. It's pointless for them to have stayed aboard if there was no hope (as would be the situation in 2000) of recovery and repair.
My guess is that the Captain would have ordered the ship scuttled, perhaps even drawing on the services of a nearby engineer unit to destroy it with a demolition nuke.

Chances are the ship would already be suffering damage from earlier in the war that could not be repaired with the available resources - perhaps it needed dry docking to replace a screw, plus the flight deck had some sizable weak spots from missile/bomb hits which had been patches up to the best of the crew's ability. Could even have been on the fringes of a nuclear blast with radio antenna's destroyed, electronics fried, even perhaps a little residual radioactivity in the vessel's hull (which of course the higher ups would do their damnedest to keep quite).

It's even potentially possible that the 2000 landings were considered to be a one way trip for the ship - one last throw of the dice to win the war which would secure the ability to then salvage the ship and repair it at leisure.
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Old 04-26-2011, 12:52 AM
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I have order of battle and history of II MEF in Europe from fall 96 to 00. I tried to make it as close to cannon and follow book history. You must remeber that Marines Deploy as MEU (2,600) MEB( 17,000) MEF (50,000) Personel not as Division as army units do. I will address this in histroy. It might explain why they have so Many guys in end. II Mef should have 2nd MARDIV, 2nd MAW , 2nd MLG. Hope this helps.
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Old 04-26-2011, 01:07 AM
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It needs to be remembered in this particular case that the Marines deployed as a Division and not some other type of unit.
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Old 04-26-2011, 02:00 AM
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My take on the NATO Summer 2000 offensive in Poland has been that NATO was looking to position itself as favorably as possible for the post-2000 collapse. The Summer 1998 campaign in Central Europe would have demonstrated that the Soviets weren’t ready to throw in the towel. At the same time, the destruction of the modern economies would have had the logistics types re-schooling the generals on the relationship between motorized armies and their supply needs. The 1999 campaign season was dominated by infantry action because circumstances dictated a sort of hyper-conservative attitude among the surviving generals. No doubt some of them would have liked to take offensive action for the sake of establishing more favorable positions. However, the senior military leaders, having observed that the 1998 fighting accomplished little more except massive reduction in perilously small stockpiles of fuel, ammunition, and spare parts, probably wanted to husband what they had left for some sort of decisive action.

The formations of XI Corps seem quite well equipped on the eve of the offensive. Perhaps the offensive was a year or more in the building. Various US Army units throughout Germany might have been coerced into giving up precious materiel with the idea that one last great effort in Poland would finally finish the Soviets in Europe by demonstrating that the Soviets no longer possessed the strength or cohesion to hold Eastern Europe. Certainly, reports of ongoing collapse on the part of Soviet forces in Poland would have been welcomed during the run-up to the Summer 2000 offensive.

There are some reasons for a NATO offensive along the Baltic that might not be so obvious the American military planner. The main effort of the offensive was directed along the Baltic coast. East Prussia lies here. Although the German population in this part of Europe is much less than it was prior to the end of World War Two, East Prussia is still East Prussia in the minds of many Germans. We should bear in mind that the FRG, the DDR, and western Austria were under NATO control prior to the start of the offensive. Given that modern military operations were on the verge of final disintegration, and given the fact that anyone capable of looking into the future would see that a long-term rebuilding and repositioning based on natural resources and population was in the cards, the Anglo-Americans might well have supported trying to bring as much of the surviving German population under German control as possible to counter-balance France and the remnants of Russia. At the very least, the reestablishment of the pre-World War One borders in the East would have put Germany in a better position to deal with France and Russia twenty to thirty years down the road. The English speakers might have supported such an action under the premise that Anglo-American forces no longer would be in much position to affect events in that part of Europe; therefore, best to strengthen the local allies for the long-term.

Of course, the Soviets were afraid of exactly this sort of thing, which is why they had Fourth Guards Army on stand-by in Belarus.

Webstral
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:28 AM
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That is a very valid opinion you have there Web and ties in with a lot of what I've said on the subject.
Even ignoring population demographics, coal deposits, surviving industry etc, Nato holding the Baltic coastline is a MASSIVE advantage over the Pact, both for continuing war efforts (if any) and peace, well, I can't exactly say negotiations given there's no governments left to do it.
To me, holding the Baltic coastline is the key to long term security. The sea in 2000 is an almost unassailable transportation route given the virtually non-existant aviation assets in the world, not to mention almost total lack of effective naval forces (lets face it, a freighter with a 20mm AA gun could probably fight off the best either side has to play with except on a bad day).
Given this, it's no surprise the gamble was taken, nor that the Pact practically battered itself to pieces to prevent it happening.
Spring 2000 both sides still had significant offensive capability, by autumn this was completely gone - on both sides of the fence.
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