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  #61  
Old 03-31-2018, 06:02 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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Originally Posted by WallShadow View Post
And rich enough to have made some provision for a potential outbreak of war.
Considering the money he had and the connections he had you know he spent 1995-1997 preparing for what was coming - and getting ready to defend his collection against all comers
  #62  
Old 04-01-2018, 08:13 AM
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I once GMed a Brigade-sized unit raised after the TDM; players were drafted into the US Army, but told to bring their own weapons if they had any, ammunition if they had any, food, personal gear, and personal effects. Once they got to the mobilization point, they were issued uniforms and if necessary small arms, rocket launchers, food and personal effects, and vehicles. They they were used as a "hit team" by MilGov for certain special missions.

Needless to say, I put this campaign premise together primarily to allow players to equip their PCs in any way they chose, to the point of exotic weaponry and gear. The players could also be developed in any way they chose, without regard to their being veterans (though they did survive TDM and the chaos afterward). The campaign's starting date was late 2001, and it took place in the US under MilGov auspices.
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Last edited by pmulcahy11b; 04-01-2018 at 08:14 AM. Reason: Mispellings and outright left-out words.
  #63  
Old 04-02-2018, 05:44 PM
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Oh I bet there is all kinds of stuff still in army depots - and considering Littlefield's resources (and that fact that the tanks had live barrels) I can bet that he had at least some live shells to go with them - and by 2001 even a couple of dozen shells a piece isnt bad considering that outside of vehicles issued to parties for starting campaigns you dont see many out there with full ammo loads (unless they are only armed with machine guns or very common rounds like for the M1 that they made untold numbers of shells for)

and yes having an adventure to find ammo stored away in an old depot sounds like a very good idea indeed

and there is even a great place to do so in CA - i.e. the Sierra Army Depot in Herlong, CA

The Federal government doesn't even allow the National Guard to store available ammunition above 7.62N.

The State of California sure isnt going to let a civilian have hundreds of rounds of tank or artillery ammunition.

Anything over .50 BMG is regulated by the ATF and has to be purchased as a Destructive Device. Every single one of them on a Form 1 with stamp or it is Federal prison time for person in possession.

The required by Federal Law safeguards alone are cost prohibitive and failing to secure them properly is fines and possible jail too.

To say that Littlefield would have more than props or training/practice munitions is a huge stretch.

The man died of cancer.... There is no reason for that to be different in an alternate timeline with no different medical institutions.

Last edited by ArmySGT.; 04-02-2018 at 06:24 PM.
  #64  
Old 04-02-2018, 06:09 PM
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The main thing I have as a concern about WWII-early Cold War vehicles is this: maintenance. Is it worth the trouble? What would be more readily available replacement parts for existing vehicles for the division or this stuff?
Bluntly, NO.

It takes months to train people, whether that is a tanker or a mechanic.

That and the WW2 stuff is over matched by the Mexican Infantry fighting vehicles.

The hull front has 51mm of armor and the sides have 38mm.

The 20mmx139mm RH202 on the Mexican IFVs defeats 55m with older DM43 AP-i ammo and 60mm DM63 APDS, even newer defeats more than 70mm of rolled homogeneous armor (RHA) the cast steel stuff before the 1970s composites entered the scene.

Worse for the Sherman. It has a day only range finder and no weapons stabilization.

Anything the Mexians have has 2 axis weapon stabilization, passive IR at a minimum, and a laser range finder. The IFV would be making hits of the Sherman while moving and the Sherman has to stop for the gunner to even try.

20mm is the smallest gun, there is a jump up to 25mm on the DN1, and the ERC - 90 has a 90mm with HEAT ammunition. They have all the same advantages over the Sherman too.

This is without the Infantry dismounted using their 40mm grenade launchers to smoke and blind the Sherman or HEPD (50mm penetration) to kill it. The units Carl Gustaf 84mm recoilless Rifles, or Unit M40A1 106mm Recoilless rifles. All the while with a Forward Observer bringing down 105mm artillery shells that will blast through a Sherman's 25mm of roof armor.

This is important due to the Shermans all in the hull design. There is no anti spall liner, armored munitions compartment, or even separation from the fuel. A hull penetration means fire and probably an ammunition detonation.

The M8 has even less armor and the same handicaps.

The stuff in the museum that is late 60s and 70s is the best option. American so there is ammunition, parts, and most importantly people who would have some training to use it. A tank is a big paper weight without a trained crew. Training for just a simple tanker private, whose first job is loader takes weeks at Ft Knox. An experienced Tank Commander is years in the making on something familiar and with frequent drill.

Then you run into problems like the radios are not able to work with the modern 80s and 90s radios.
  #65  
Old 04-02-2018, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
The Federal government doesn't even allow the National Guard to store available ammunition above 7.62N.

The State of California sure isnt going to let a civilian have hundreds of rounds of tank or artillery ammunition.

Anything over .50 BMG is regulated by the ATF and has to be purchased as a Destructive Device. Every single one of them on a Form 1 with stamp or it is Federal prison time for person in possession.

The required by Federal Law safeguards alone are cost prohibitive and failing to secure them properly is fines and possible jail too.

To say that Littlefield would have more than props or training/practice munitions is a huge stretch.

The man died of cancer.... There is no reason for that to be different in an alternate timeline with no different medical institutions.
And Littlefield had tanks with live barrels - and he didnt die from cancer till long after the V1 and V2 timeline - he died in January of 2009 after a decade long battle with colon cancer - would he be sick as hell yes - but in April of 2001 he would be alive -

And who said anything about hundreds of rounds of tank ammo - hell the US Army by April of 2001 would be lucky to have hundreds of rounds of tank ammo

Also you can buy and sell live main gun tanks rounds in the US - all you have to do is register it as a destructive device and pay the $200 transfer tax for every round of ammunition being sold to you. Littlefield was a multi-millionaire - he could easily pay that tax. Again the law states that you need a separate NFA title II tax stamp for each machine gun and cannon, and a permit for each explosive shell (explosive shell for the cannon). Now I can see why regular people would think that tax is cost prohibitive - but do the math - 200 main gun rounds at 200 bucks per round comes out to 40,000 bucks - i.e. enough rounds for the tanks he had with live barrels to fill their ammo racks - which for Littlefield would have been chump change - we arent talking about going to war for years here

And ArmySgt tank rounds are completely and totally LEGAL in the state of California - even today in 2018 let alone back in the 1990's

https://3gtactical.com/nfa/nfa-state-restrictions

I know its hard to believe but they are - you can own anything in California - all you need to do is have the license and pay the fee- and state that you will not fire the rounds or the destructive device

which means he could have as much live ammo as he wanted to - and I highly doubt by April/May of 2001 that anyone would be coming to arrest him for having live ammo or firing it - especially since the state had been invaded by the Mexicans

11 CCR 4128
(a) Except as provided in sections 30900 through 30945, 31050, 31055, and 31100 of the Penal Code, no person shall possess, transport, or sell any dangerous weapon in this state unless he/she has been granted a license and/or permit pursuant to these regulations.
(b) No license or permit shall be issued to any applicant who fails to establish good cause for such license or permit and that such license or permit would not endanger the public safety.
(c) To establish good cause, an applicant must provide the DOJ with clear and convincing evidence that there is a bona fide market or public necessity for the issuance of a dangerous weapons license or permit and that the applicant can satisfy that need without endangering public safety. Except as provided by Penal Code section 33300, good causes recognized by the DOJ to establish a bona fide necessity for issuance of dangerous weapons licenses or permits include the following:
(4) Possession for the purpose of maintaining a collection of destructive devices as defined in Penal Code section 16460 but such possession shall not be allowed for short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, machineguns or assault weapons.
(d) No license or permit shall be issued to any applicant who fails to comply with local zoning restrictions or local fire-protective services regulations or ordinances.
(e) The DOJ shall provide a notice of each license or permit issued to the Chief of Police or Sheriff having jurisdiction over the licensee or permittee's location. Copies of outstanding licenses and permits shall be provided to the Chief or Sheriff of jurisdiction upon request.

11 CCR 4135
(a) Documentation required to determine bona fide necessity for collecting destructive devices includes the following:
(1) A written statement from applicant certifying that he is a bona fide collector of destructive devices. The statement must identify the weapons or ordnance of interest to the collector and an estimate of the intended size of the collection.
(2) A written statement from applicant certifying that the weapon or ordinance will not be fired or discharged.

Last edited by Olefin; 04-02-2018 at 07:39 PM.
  #66  
Old 04-02-2018, 08:13 PM
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And he had the bucks to set up his production if he was so inclined!

Of note, AP rounds would not have cost anything to register.

While we are straying a bit of the subject, there are hundreds of muzzle loading cannons owned by collectors all over the US. Know a guy that uses coke cans filled with cement to shoot in his 12 pounder. Perfectly legal to own and no requirement to register with ATF. Same for Gatling guns.
  #67  
Old 04-02-2018, 08:24 PM
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and what is the big problem with radios - remove the radio from a non-operational vehicle - install into your M60A1, M60A2 or Centurion Mk13 - fill with shells from US Army depot - go out and kick ass - sounds simple to me - and considering we are talking V1 here there would still be rounds in storage for tanks like the M47 as well
  #68  
Old 04-02-2018, 09:04 PM
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There is a problem with trying to fit more modern radios into the older vehicles and it's a real pain in the rear - electrical system & fittings.
To fit a more modern radio into the older vehicle you might very well have to replace all the electrical/power system that would be used by the radio. That's even before we start talking about compatible fittings to connect to the power supply and antenna.

It would be far easier to take infantry backpack radios and stick the antenna out the hatch... with all the problems that gives when under fire.
  #69  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
There is a problem with trying to fit more modern radios into the older vehicles and it's a real pain in the rear - electrical system & fittings.
To fit a more modern radio into the older vehicle you might very well have to replace all the electrical/power system that would be used by the radio. That's even before we start talking about compatible fittings to connect to the power supply and antenna.

It would be far easier to take infantry backpack radios and stick the antenna out the hatch... with all the problems that gives when under fire.
Exactly. Power supply, mounts, fittings, voltage, amperage, antenna.

It is a whole system. The radio mount isn't just a frame. Every goes through the mount and then the radio. Cables, antennas, even the Hertz from the power supply has to be compatible or it does not work.
  #70  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mpipes View Post
And he had the bucks to set up his production if he was so inclined!

Of note, AP rounds would not have cost anything to register.

While we are straying a bit of the subject, there are hundreds of muzzle loading cannons owned by collectors all over the US. Know a guy that uses coke cans filled with cement to shoot in his 12 pounder. Perfectly legal to own and no requirement to register with ATF. Same for Gatling guns.
AP rounds still do. It is a shell, round with case..

Form 1 with a $200 attached, then wait for Federal approval from the ATF. Sale and transfer can still be blocked by the State.

Has to be stored secure in a shelter that is fire proof.

Production? that is thousands of dollars in fees to get the explosive licenses and manufacturing licenses for a hobby.

Last edited by ArmySGT.; 04-03-2018 at 10:47 AM. Reason: spelling
  #71  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
And Littlefield had tanks with live barrels - and he didnt die from cancer till long after the V1 and V2 timeline - he died in January of 2009 after a decade long battle with colon cancer - would he be sick as hell yes - but in April of 2001 he would be alive -

And who said anything about hundreds of rounds of tank ammo - hell the US Army by April of 2001 would be lucky to have hundreds of rounds of tank ammo

Also you can buy and sell live main gun tanks rounds in the US - all you have to do is register it as a destructive device and pay the $200 transfer tax for every round of ammunition being sold to you. Littlefield was a multi-millionaire - he could easily pay that tax. Again the law states that you need a separate NFA title II tax stamp for each machine gun and cannon, and a permit for each explosive shell (explosive shell for the cannon). Now I can see why regular people would think that tax is cost prohibitive - but do the math - 200 main gun rounds at 200 bucks per round comes out to 40,000 bucks - i.e. enough rounds for the tanks he had with live barrels to fill their ammo racks - which for Littlefield would have been chump change - we arent talking about going to war for years here

And ArmySgt tank rounds are completely and totally LEGAL in the state of California - even today in 2018 let alone back in the 1990's

The State of California and the Federal government would not allow that many rounds in the possession of a private citizen.

The State and the Federal do not have to approve sale.

Millionaires don't stay millionaires spending their money.

Then there is the costs for live ammunition in calibers not produced any longer or quality and safety of them either.

Last edited by ArmySGT.; 04-03-2018 at 09:55 PM.
  #72  
Old 04-03-2018, 12:01 PM
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He spent money like crazy on his collection - thats a matter of public record - it was his love and joy. Basically money was no object.

And the Feds and the State allow that kind of purchase all the time - all you need is the money to pay for the rounds, a safe place to keep them and in CA a promise not to fire them - thats it.

There are multiple places in the US that you can fire a tank gun with real live tank rounds - rounds that were bought legally and fired legally.

As for the ammo being out of production - the only tanks that would be a real issue would be the Conqueror and the M103 - and if there are live rounds they would be in CA - because the last operator of the gun that fired that ammo was the USMC and they had that ammo cached in Barstow - they both fired the same ammo. The US had lots of 90mm ammo still in storage for the M47 tank. And a lot of the other vehicles just needed to install a 50 and they were fully operational.

As for operating a tank with the radio antenna sticking out of the hatch - that can be done if it has to be done. Frankly by 2001 the last thing the US Army would be turning down getting an operational tank for would be a radio that doesnt work - a jury rig is a hell of a lot better than no tank.

And if they are using CEV's as tanks - I think they would take an old M60A1 over that
  #73  
Old 04-03-2018, 01:06 PM
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I find the Littlefield idea interesting story wise, and I'll see how I use it.

As far as the 40th ID: I think that it makes more sense for the brigade that is available to be the main body aound which reservists are trained, equipped and deployed. My understanding is that reservists in Calilfornia and Oregon would be available, and so while the normal processes might face a lot of challenges, I think it is reasonable that a division can b formed around reserve units.

The division has considerable support in the form of logistics, tansport, signals and engineers to make this possible.

Because of this I'm going to cut down somewhat on armoured vehicles to reflect losses of fuel and parts, and halve the number of APCs, mortar carriers, etc. I think for artillery and aviation I will simply restict their use, and have their use controlled at high levels of command.
  #74  
Old 04-03-2018, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
AP rounds still do. It is a shell, round with case..

Form 1 with a $200 attached, then wait for Federal approval from the ATF. Sale and transfer can still be blocked by the State.

Has to be stored secure in a shelter that is fire proof.

Production? that is thousands of dollars in fees to get the explosive licenses and manufacturing licenses for a hobby.
ARE YOU COMPLETELY NUTS!!!!!

Do you honestly think ATF is going to be in business as of 12/1/1997? ATF is going to be embedded in fallout scattered all over the Atlantic and Europe.
  #75  
Old 04-03-2018, 06:36 PM
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ARE YOU COMPLETELY NUTS!!!!!

Do you honestly think ATF is going to be in business as of 12/1/1997? ATF is going to be embedded in fallout scattered all over the Atlantic and Europe.
I'm pretty certain that what he was referring to was the acquisition of these rounds before the T2k war when the US government was still in place and not during/after the war.
  #76  
Old 04-03-2018, 06:57 PM
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I would be thinking that he would be looking to get live rounds as soon as the war began if he didnt before - Littlefield loved those tanks and vehicles - and there is no way he would have given them up without a fight - and given the amount of money and connections he had getting shells to arm the tanks he had (and no I dont mean he gets six full ammo loads for them I mean enough to maybe fill the racks once or so) with live barrels makes a hell of a lot of sense - especially after the TDM as things got very down and dirty

Again keep in mind this is a man who spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to get parts and vehicles per year. Hell he could have even gotten them in trade after the TDM - oh you need a place to repair that M60 - well I have all the parts and mechanics you need for sure - that will cost you a dozen shells or two dozen shells

And frankly those arguments about old tanks versus modern ones - if MilGov is using engineering vehicles with demo guns as tanks I would much rather have an actual tank with an actual gun designed to take on tanks any day than a gun that wasnt designed to take on tanks - plus a lot of the vehicles he had were perfectly good APC's and recon vehicles that only needed a 50 cal and off they go - like the Ferret he had for instance
  #77  
Old 04-03-2018, 07:39 PM
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Do you think the government would have requisitioned the tanks from Littlefield's collections that it deemed useful? If he loved them so much, do you think he'd lawyer up or otherwise tried to avoid turning them over? Or, do you think he would have volunteered their use to the military, first/instead?
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  #78  
Old 04-03-2018, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
I would be thinking that he would be looking to get live rounds as soon as the war began if he didnt before - Littlefield loved those tanks and vehicles - and there is no way he would have given them up without a fight - and given the amount of money and connections he had getting shells to arm the tanks he had (and no I dont mean he gets six full ammo loads for them I mean enough to maybe fill the racks once or so) with live barrels makes a hell of a lot of sense - especially after the TDM as things got very down and dirty

Again keep in mind this is a man who spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to get parts and vehicles per year. Hell he could have even gotten them in trade after the TDM - oh you need a place to repair that M60 - well I have all the parts and mechanics you need for sure - that will cost you a dozen shells or two dozen shells

And frankly those arguments about old tanks versus modern ones - if MilGov is using engineering vehicles with demo guns as tanks I would much rather have an actual tank with an actual gun designed to take on tanks any day than a gun that wasnt designed to take on tanks - plus a lot of the vehicles he had were perfectly good APC's and recon vehicles that only needed a 50 cal and off they go - like the Ferret he had for instance
How much ammunition is likely to be available for, for instance, a Sherman or a vehicle with a .30 cal machinegun on it though?
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Old 04-03-2018, 07:56 PM
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for 50 cal there would be lots of ammo - it was very common - ditto 90mm ammo for the M47 or ammo for the M60 or the Centurion that had the same gun as the M1 - and by that I mean more than enough ammo to fill their racks at least once

the big question is the M103 and the Conqueror - they both used the same cannon - but if there is anywhere that might have ammo its actually CA - the last group to operate the M103 were the USMC and they grouped about half of what they had at Barstow along with the ammo - so if there are any shells still sitting in a depot they would be at Barstow in the USMC warehouses - they might need new propellant charges after that long in storage but any solid shot still in storage should work just fine

as for govt requisitioning the tanks - the question would be would if the right people are still around who know the tanks have live barrels - they would be registered destructive devices - but the local ATF might be long gone - meaning that local commanders may just think they are typical museum tanks - i.e. with demil barrels and inactive fire control systems

meaning they may not even know what he has there
  #80  
Old 04-03-2018, 08:30 PM
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How much ammunition is likely to be available for, for instance, a Sherman or a vehicle with a .30 cal machinegun on it though?
While not the best source

The popularity of the M1 Carbine for collecting, sporting, and re-enactment use has resulted in continued civilian popularity of the .30 Carbine cartridge. For hunting, it is considered a small/medium-game cartridge, of marginal power for deer-size game. Even in long-barreled carbines, military-style full metal jacket projectiles do not expand as easily as soft or hollow point. In addition, the high sectional density of the projectile causes the bullet to overpenetrate. Soft-point and hollowpoint cartridges are considered to be more effective for hunting and self-defense, and are offered by Winchester, Remington UMC, Federal Cartridge, and Hornady ammunition manufacturers. With millions of surplus M1 Carbines still owned by civilians, the round continues to be used for these purposes into the present day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine
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  #81  
Old 04-03-2018, 09:50 PM
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ARE YOU COMPLETELY NUTS!!!!!

Do you honestly think ATF is going to be in business as of 12/1/1997? ATF is going to be embedded in fallout scattered all over the Atlantic and Europe.
Before the war.

Everything would have to be bought and shipped before the war began in a functioning economy for this to happen.

After the war begins anyone the would be able to make ammo is going to be shanghaied for NATO STANAG calibers solely and under government controls.
  #82  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:01 PM
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And if they are using CEV's as tanks - I think they would take an old M60A1 over that
The M728 CEV
is used in the assault AS A TANK. These are used to breach obstacles like berms or with mine plow to get units through a defensive mine belt. All the while under enemy fire. The armor isn't enough by 2018 and that is why (even with ERA) this is replaced by the Grizzly.

While the 165mm demo gun isn't meant for other tanks that is what the supporting arms like artillery is for. NOTHING operates alone (except in RPGs).
  #83  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
Do you think the government would have requisitioned the tanks from Littlefield's collections that it deemed useful? If he loved them so much, do you think he'd lawyer up or otherwise tried to avoid turning them over? Or, do you think he would have volunteered their use to the military, first/instead?
Even the State itself........ have to protect the Governor, Capitol, and the Treasury. That is where I would see the State drawing off all the wheeled APCs.

Wheeled APCs have parts commonality with 2.5ton and 5ton trucks with commercial engines or transmissions.
  #84  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
as for govt requisitioning the tanks - the question would be would if the right people are still around who know the tanks have live barrels - they would be registered destructive devices - but the local ATF might be long gone - meaning that local commanders may just think they are typical museum tanks - i.e. with demil barrels and inactive fire control systems

meaning they may not even know what he has there
The State Highway Patrol, National Guard, Air National Guard, California Dept of the Military, Cal EPA, Cal Bureau of Firearms.

Federal Bureau of Investigations, Secret Service, U.S. Marshals, ATFE, and the EPA.

Explosives and military equipment puts you high on peoples list of attention getters.
  #85  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rcaf_777 View Post
While not the best source

The popularity of the M1 Carbine for collecting, sporting, and re-enactment use has resulted in continued civilian popularity of the .30 Carbine cartridge. For hunting, it is considered a small/medium-game cartridge, of marginal power for deer-size game. Even in long-barreled carbines, military-style full metal jacket projectiles do not expand as easily as soft or hollow point. In addition, the high sectional density of the projectile causes the bullet to overpenetrate. Soft-point and hollowpoint cartridges are considered to be more effective for hunting and self-defense, and are offered by Winchester, Remington UMC, Federal Cartridge, and Hornady ammunition manufacturers. With millions of surplus M1 Carbines still owned by civilians, the round continues to be used for these purposes into the present day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine
it is marginally popular in some other firearms as pest control and personal protection..... Similar effects to a .357 magnum.

People complain about the FMJ, but gush about the HP ammo. I missed my opportunity to get a carbine in 2007 for $150 and sort of regret it.
  #86  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:39 PM
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What if someone PLANNED to use the collection against enemies?
What if Littlefield, and some friends (Local Base commander, One or More high level state/federal politicians and several other friends) came to the realization that things could get bad, and that the collection would give the California State government a little bit of an edge during civil unrest. Heck, lets say some of these folks even thought that they could be "reinforcements" if the Soviets ever came through Washington state (not all powerful men are rational). So for a period of time before the TDM they pool their resources and influence to start making the collection ready for service. They start commissioning sympathetic machinists (or a "friend" with a machine shop orders their employees to) start making critical parts. State law enforcement looks the other way as munitions are located or created. Enthusiast and greybeards are recruited for crews and trainers. Until that day when the 40th ID reforms and this adhoc "wannabe" unit shows up for duty.
It almost sounds like the plot to a sitcom, but people take initiative all the time on endeavors. Think of Zouve units in the ACW, or the Lincoln Brigade. It's no more unrealistic in this fantasyverse than an entire infantry Brigade formed around Anti-Aircraft Vehicles. Maybe part of cannon could be this quixotic adventure.
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:41 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
The State Highway Patrol, National Guard, Air National Guard, California Dept of the Military, Cal EPA, Cal Bureau of Firearms.

Federal Bureau of Investigations, Secret Service, U.S. Marshals, ATFE, and the EPA.

Explosives and military equipment puts you high on peoples list of attention getters.
And you have non-functioning computers and a country under nuclear attack during WWIII - meaning those people have a lot more on their hands than remembering stuff about a bunch of tanks in the middle of nowhere - I know something about how bureaucracy's work - and with the break down of communications and computers he and his tanks would be forgotten pretty quickly

about the only possible people who might remember his tanks would be people who had actually seen his collection before the war - which back then would be a relatively small group of people - it really wasnt famous yet - at most you are talking a handful of people who might remember what he has if at all

and keep in mind that CA has the second biggest collection of registered destructive devices that there is in the country which makes it even more likely that he gets forgotten or overlooked

especially with the combined punch of what happened to Los Angeles and then the Mexican invasion
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:46 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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Originally Posted by DocFirefly View Post
What if someone PLANNED to use the collection against enemies?
What if Littlefield, and some friends (Local Base commander, One or More high level state/federal politicians and several other friends) came to the realization that things could get bad, and that the collection would give the California State government a little bit of an edge during civil unrest. Heck, lets say some of these folks even thought that they could be "reinforcements" if the Soviets ever came through Washington state (not all powerful men are rational). So for a period of time before the TDM they pool their resources and influence to start making the collection ready for service. They start commissioning sympathetic machinists (or a "friend" with a machine shop orders their employees to) start making critical parts. State law enforcement looks the other way as munitions are located or created. Enthusiast and greybeards are recruited for crews and trainers. Until that day when the 40th ID reforms and this adhoc "wannabe" unit shows up for duty.
It almost sounds like the plot to a sitcom, but people take initiative all the time on endeavors. Think of Zouve units in the ACW, or the Lincoln Brigade. It's no more unrealistic in this fantasyverse than an entire infantry Brigade formed around Anti-Aircraft Vehicles. Maybe part of cannon could be this quixotic adventure.
I could see that for sure - look at Kenya and the volunteer unit of WWII re-enactors and vehicle collectors that got sent there - given that unit being deployed by MilGov I have a feeling they would welcome Littlefield's 1st Volunteers or whatever you might want to call them with open arms - or make an arrangement with him to help guard his collection in exchange for getting their vehicles repaired and put back into functional status

Most likely that shop of his is the only functional tank repair facility left in the whole state - complete with tools, welding equipment, you name it all specifically designed to repair and fix military equipment - this isnt a truck shop we are talking about - these are men and equipment that could take a rusting piece of junk and turn it back into a functional tank
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:55 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
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Before the war.

Everything would have to be bought and shipped before the war began in a functioning economy for this to happen.

After the war begins anyone the would be able to make ammo is going to be shanghaied for NATO STANAG calibers solely and under government controls.
Actually the best time for him to get his shells would be after the war started - lots of money flowing, lots of people looking to make money and all kinds of opportunities to get stuff. And he knew exactly who to talk to in order to get all kinds of things that he needed to get those tanks back up to spec. And remember per the canon this is a world where by 2000 if you have the gold you can buy just about anything

But frankly ArmySgt I doubt that anything I or anyone else has to say will convince you - and as always you can be free to use whatever you like in your own game - Littlefields Collection will be part of mine - and part of what I will be writing about for sure as well - will make a great addition to a module for sure
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:11 PM
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Actually the best time for him to get his shells would be after the war started - lots of money flowing, lots of people looking to make money and all kinds of opportunities to get stuff. And he knew exactly who to talk to in order to get all kinds of things that he needed to get those tanks back up to spec. And remember per the canon this is a world where by 2000 if you have the gold you can buy just about anything

But frankly ArmySgt I doubt that anything I or anyone else has to say will convince you - and as always you can be free to use whatever you like in your own game - Littlefields Collection will be part of mine - and part of what I will be writing about for sure as well - will make a great addition to a module for sure
After the War begins?

The stresses credibility even further. The World is a war. International Banks are not allowed to transfer funds between hostiles. The undersea cables are cut or compromised. Economies are under war provisions and controls. International travel is strangled to nothing, if there was even fuels to move planes or ships.

I will accept a lot of things if there is reasonable and plausible explanations for their existence. While I would put some, but very little of the Littlefield Collection into a game, any reasonable adult with any military training would take only what really would be effective and not just get good troops killed using the thing.

The 1970s (and newer) American armor sure. The WW2 not at all.
The items that are not American and you have an Ally, ship it to them. The Brit tanks would be better given to Canada or shipped to Allies in Korea for that matter.

Equipment has to be maintained and operated by troops well trained in the use and maintenance of that equipment or it is just a liability not an asset.
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