4th Economics 101

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by robj3

In overview:
Start with the settlement's Tech Level and population.
Calculate the size of the labor pool.
Distribute workers into agriculture, mining/mfg/construction, distribution, services.

Tech Level E.. Late Steam 1880s (pg 208)
Large Settlement 300 persons
Organization. 60% Leadership 30% Domain 3km2 per person 900 km2 (Pg 212)
Community trait None (pg214)
Labor pool: 47% under 15, 50% 15-64, 3% over 64%, 141, 150, 9 (pg 236)
Labor pool = 150 persons 15-64 / .66 = 99 Laborers
2000 labor hours per worker = 198, 000. Tech level E multiplier 4. 198000*4= 792,000 labor hours per year. (Pg 236)

Originally Posted by robj3

Work through each sector.

Tech level E…. Farming 11-25, Miners, Makers, Builders 25, Deliverers 20, Services (32+. 99*0.25= 25, 99*0.25=25, 99*0.25 =25,99*0.32=32)
25+25+25+32= 104 (more workers needed than currently available…. Depending on farms output this may balance out with a reduction in agriculture workers. (Pg 237)

Originally Posted by robj3

- how do I feed the population with the farmers available?

Agriculture Sector Tech level E. 80 hours per 25 Hectares per farmer (2khours per farmer per year)
Yield for Tech level E. 1300 kg wheat per hectare…. Supporting 4.3 persons base cost 6, input 1 (WTF is the explanation for base cost and input? Description in the rule book is lacking. Where do you use this? What are the modifiers per tech level?)
Can produce 900Km2 = 90,000 hectares (1 hectare = 10k meters2) One person requires 300kg equivalent per year. Village needs 90,000 Kg equivalent of wheat for 300 persons. 300*300=90000 (pg 237)
25 farmers with 25 hectares apiece per year equals 625 Hectares in farmland. (Pg 237) 812,500 kg of wheat per year possible; enough to feed 2708 persons annually. Outputs from other crops have their own modifiers (Pg237) 90,000kg wheat/1300Kg per hectare = 69 hectares = 2.76 or 3 farmers to produce the minimum wheat requirement at tech level E for 300 person.
Consumption = 50Kg meat and 150L milk per person per year.
Village need 300*50kg meat per person, per year, or 15,000 kg of meat produced. Village needs 300*150 liters of milk per person, per year, or 45,000 liters consumed as milk, cheese, butter, etc.
Milk = 180kg per hectare. 45000/180= 250 hectares to produce 45K liters with 2-10 hectares per animal, assuming 10 hectares for a cow and 2 hectares for a dairy goat.
This is where I quit again……. The table on (pg 238) has no explanation for the production, amounts per hectare, or why this spins off into man hours (to determine number of farmers) so one can eventually determine the kilograms per food type to feed the village.

So I can never get past agriculture to eventually get on to any of the other Economic sectors in determining whether a village is functioning or starving.

Originally Posted by robj3

- how do I produce the raw materials the community needs?

Originally Posted by robj3

- how is agricultural and factory product distributed?

Originally Posted by robj3

- how are service workers distributed?

Originally Posted by robj3

- how much energy is required to run everything?

Originally Posted by robj3

- where does everyone live?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

(WTF is the explanation for base cost and input? Description in the rule book is lacking. Where do you use this? What are the modifiers per tech level?)

My reading is that the base cost is used when establishing or expanding a farm for things like additional harnesses, tractors, buildings, etc. The input cost is recurring for things like seeds, fertilizer, etc. So it you are just building a settlement under the assumption it is functioning normally, you really can ignore all the base costs, since those would have already been paid, and just use the input costs to determine the overhead of running the farms in this case. Same would hold true for all the industrial and energy sectors.

All the descriptions of base cost talk about durable equipment and personnel training. That is why if the settlement is assumed to be stable, you can ignore those. If there was a plague or something that wiped out people, equipment or structures, the base costs would have to be paid again. At least that is how I read it.

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

My reading is that the base cost is used when establishing or expanding a farm for things like additional harnesses, tractors, buildings, etc. The input cost is recurring for things like seeds, fertilizer, etc. So it you are just building a settlement under the assumption it is functioning normally, you really can ignore all the base costs, since those would have already been paid, and just use the input costs to determine the overhead of running the farms in this case. Same would hold true for all the industrial and energy sectors.

All the descriptions of base cost talk about durable equipment and personnel training. That is why if the settlement is assumed to be stable, you can ignore those. If there was a plague or something that wiped out people, equipment or structures, the base costs would have to be paid again. At least that is how I read it.

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

This is what I mean..... the Base costs and the Input costs are useless in the initial determination of what is produced by how many for how much time.

Except... that it keeps getting referenced because you have to determine man hours to determine the number of laborers necessary for the production.

What gets me...... your not going to have a village that hasn't paid the base cost to build the agriculture.... they would have starved and died or disbanded.

[RandyT0001]

It does not work. It never did work. The person that wrote it has not tried to explain it. He's never going to explain it in a level of detail that people can emulate. He cannot explain it because it is a broken system.

Even if you did figure some way to make some sense out of it and create a community based on those guidelines/rules, there is nothing in the book that explains how the information is to be used to interact within the game's other material and/or the PC's.

IMO

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

It does not work. It never did work. The person that wrote it has not tried to explain it. He's never going to explain it in a level of detail that people can emulate. He cannot explain it because it is a broken system.

Even if you did figure some way to make some sense out of it and create a community based on those guidelines/rules, there is nothing in the book that explains how the information is to be used to interact within the game's other material and/or the PC's.

IMO

Posted such on the Morrow Project Facebook page.... maybe you and some others could do the same and we can get Chris Garland and Rob O'Connor to address this.

[mmartin798]

I am in the middle of building a spreadsheet to do all these calculations. So far using it, I have been able to get the same numbers as the examples, but I am only done with the agricultural part. The way it works best is to just start with how much food do the farmers need to produce. The number used is 300kg of grain equivalent and 150kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per person. In Sgt.'s example, 90,000kg of wheat and 45,000kg of meat.

Now let's start with the grain. Tech level E produces 1300kg per hectare. Ignore the 4.3 as that is just another way to look at the same number that is more confusing for our purposes. 90,000kg grain requires 69.23H to grow. Now at tech level E, each hectare take 80 hours annually, giving 5,538.4 hours. Divide this by 2000 man hours per year and we require 3 farmers to support the peoples grain requirements.

You do the same thing for the livestock, only you do need to figure that you keep a portion around for breeding increasing the total amount of meat on the hoof. Once you know how much meat you need, you figure out how much corn is needed and repeat the processes for people above. If calculating for corn, remember the crop multiplier, since cultivating corn generates twice the weight per hectare as wheat.

This process duplicated all the examples for ag, so I kind of trust it.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

I am in the middle of building a spreadsheet to do all these calculations. So far using it, I have been able to get the same numbers as the examples, but I am only done with the agricultural part. The way it works best is to just start with how much food do the farmers need to produce. The number used is 300kg of grain equivalent and 150kg of meat or 15,000L of milk per person. In Sgt.'s example, 90,000kg of wheat and 45,000kg of meat.

Now let's start with the grain. Tech level E produces 1300kg per hectare. Ignore the 4.3 as that is just another way to look at the same number that is more confusing for our purposes. 90,000kg grain requires 69.23H to grow. Now at tech level E, each hectare take 80 hours annually, giving 5,538.4 hours. Divide this by 2000 man hours per year and we require 3 farmers to support the peoples grain requirements.

You do the same thing for the livestock, only you do need to figure that you keep a portion around for breeding increasing the total amount of meat on the hoof. Once you know how much meat you need, you figure out how much corn is needed and repeat the processes for people above. If calculating for corn, remember the crop multiplier, since cultivating corn generates twice the weight per hectare as wheat.

This process duplicated all the examples for ag, so I kind of trust it.

Could you demonstrate in some examples? I am trying the process over completely with a Tech E homestead of 10 persons.... smaller more manageable calculations.

[ArmySGT.]

Farmstead…. Single family plus farm hands…. Tech level E (late steam) (Pg 208)…. 10 persons.
Domain equals 0.5km2 per person 10*0.5 = 5Km2
This family homestead comprises 5Km2 of land supporting 10 persons and livestock.

Labor Pool Labor pool: 47% under 15, 50% 15-64, 3% over 64%, 141, 150, 9 (pg 236)
10*0.47= 4.7, 10*0.50=5, 10*0.03= 0.3
5 adults, and five children.
Labor year = 2000 hours for each adult. 5*2000 = 10,000 labor hours. Tech level E modifier for this is 4. 10000*4=40000
The farmstead with implements and decent knowledge averages 40,000 man hours per year. (Pg 236)
Division of labor (Pg 237)……. Tech Level E…. Agriculture 11-25%, Mining/Manufacturing/Construction 25%, Distribution 20%, other Services 32%
5*0.25= 1.25, 5*0.25=1.25, 5*0.20=1, 5*0.32 = 1.6 = 5.1 Labors….. Problem…. One of the children is now farming.
One farmer, one builder, one delivery, one caretaker accounted for, fifth person? We will see if we need another adult in another job if the system will yield results.
Feeding one person equals 300Kg equivalent of wheat(Pg 237). 10x300kg equals 3000 kgs to feed the homestead. (Pg 237). People need 50 kilograms of meat and 150 liters of milk (dairy products) per year.
10*50=500Kg and 10*150=1500L …….. though this is not explained if this is in addition to the 300 Kg of wheat or substitutes for all or in part……. I can’t determine from the text.
So the Homestead needs 3000kgs of Wheat, 500 Kgs of Meat, and 1500L of milk. Per year to feed the inhabitants adequately, I think.
Confusing bit….. Agricultural Sector table (Pg 237)… Tech level E…. Time per Hectare for a Tech level E farmer is 80(25) 80 hours per hectare and a farmer does 25 hectares in one labor year.

Except later in text farmers are farming 46 hectares for 1840 hours… baffled… is 25 hectares a limit that is then ignored? Is this meant to mean that at Tech Level E a farmer can work 25 hectares in 80 hours?
Next is yield….. Tech level E is 1300kg per hectare and supports 4.3 persons on that hectare (302.3kgs per person). Why does the persons per hectare matter? It isn’t used in any of the following calculations.
3000Kg/1300kg = 2.3 Hectares needed for just wheat. Domain equals 5KM2 or 500 hectares….. so space is covered.
3000kgs/1300kg = 2.3 hectares…. 2.3 = 160hours ( our farmer has it easy!)
On this table is featured the Base Cost and the Input cost….. and no reason why you need to calculate this.
Live stock and Aquaculture… (Pg 238)
You have an average yield per hectare…. Then a modifier….. to me ….. these contradict each other..
I can use the average and get one sum or the modifier and get another sum…..
So is it 180 liter per hectare with an animal using 2-10 hectares for pasture; or is the modifier of whatever the tech level produces….. Tech Level E is 1300Kg per hectare… 1/12 of this is 108kg or liter of milk with an animal using 2-10 hectares….. I am assuming (I know!) the 2 hectares is a milk goat and 10 hectares is a milk cow.
So which one?
Then, there is the corn equivalent ( corn modifier is 2) at Tech level E this would be 2600Kg of corn per hectare. …… so this is the corn needed to feed animals in grain to have them produce…… Does this come out of the farmers output or does there need to be another farmer..... See where the farmers production limit has produced something confusing?
So… Um milk cows. Do I have one or two?
The homestead needs 1500L of milk for a year…. This could mean 1500/180=8.3 hectares…. Or 13.8 hectares… Does the modifier 1/12 affect the manhours? Is it 80 (Tech E) divided by 1/12? Or is it still 80 hours per hectare? I think it would still be the full time requirement… so. 664 hours for 8.3 hectares or 1104 hours for 13.8 hectares. (farmer is a little busier (824 hours or 1264 hours)
Meat. The Homestead requires 500kgs of meat per year to feed the 10 persons.
Beef = 25kg average or 1/88 the equivalent of wheat per hectare.. 1300*(1/88) or 1300*0.011 or 14.3kg per hectare…… again which is it? 500kgs / 25kg per hectare equals 20 hectares of pastured beef or 500/14.3kg per hectare equals 34.9 hectares. 80hrs*20= 1600 and 80*34.9=2792 (our farmers is at either at 2424 labor hours or 4056 hours)

But, wait the animals need grain… milk needs 1kg of corn per liter produced and beef needs 13 kgs of corn per kilo of meat. So the homestead must produce 1500kg of corn for milk cows and 6500 kgs of corn for beef cattle. At tech level E…. 1300kg per hectare with a x2 modifier for corn. Or 2600kgs per hectare. 1500 + 6500 = 8000 kgs of corn required. 8000/2600= 3.07 hectares or 245.6 labor hours.
( the farmer is now at 2669.6 or 4301.6 labor hours.)

So we need 1.33 farmers or 2.15 farmers….. to feed the Home stead.

That would mean that this Homestead would have 2 farmer, one house wife, one ranch hand fixing everything, and one ranch hand in Delivery.

[mmartin798]

Sure. I just realized I quoted some wrong number for the meat anyway, so I will correct that here.

I will assume no exceptional attributes, so this is where we start:

Tech Level (TL): E
Population: 10
Volatile: 50%
Extrovert: 50%
Compassion: 50%
Discipline: 50%
Curious: 50%
Organization: 50%

The available labor pool is 2/3 of 50% of 10, or 3 people. At 2000 man-hours per year, we have 6000 hours available.

To feed 10 people, we need 3000kg of wheat and 500kg of meat.

At TL E, each hectare yields 1300kg of wheat per year and takes 80 hours per hectare to work and harvest. So we need 3000/1300, or 1.36 hectares of land to provide the people's wheat. This require 108.8 hours, so less than one farmer so far.

Let's assume they keep chickens, since they take up less space than beef. We assume they only eat 10% of the flock each year. So to get the 500kg of meat, we need 500/115 hectare of land, or 4.35 hectares for their coop and "grazing" area. They grow corn to feed the chickens. The amount of corn is 2.5*500/2 (the corn multiplier) or 625 kg wheat equivalents. But since only 10% of the flock is eaten, we need to multiply that by 10, giving 6250kg. Again, TL E produces 1300 kg/hectare, we need 6250/1300, or 4.8 hectares to grow the corn on. We add the two areas together, 4.35+4.80, to give 9.15 hectares. At TL E, each hectare takes 80 hours, so we need 9.15*80 or 732 man-hours per year for the chickens and their feed.

So to feed the settlement, we need to supply 841 man-hours, which is still one farmer. We now add the inputs for one person in the ag sector at TL E, which is 2000. The total man-hours to feed this settlement is 2841.

[mmartin798]

The biggest problem is the use of different units all the time. The calculations really need to be calculated in hours, but they keep quoting labor years. It really messes things up.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

So we need 3000/1300, or 1.36 hectares of land to provide the people's wheat. This require 108.8 hours, so less than one farmer so far.

3000/1300=2.307 ........ Wouldn't that be 2.3 Hectares... 80*2.3= 184 labor hours?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

They grow corn to feed the chickens. The amount of corn is 2.5*500/2 (the corn multiplier) or 625 kg wheat equivalents. But since only 10% of the flock is eaten, we need to multiply that by 10, giving 6250kg. Again, TL E produces 1300 kg/hectare, we need 6250/1300, or 4.8 hectares to grow the corn on. We add the two areas together, 4.35+4.80, to give 9.15 hectares. At TL E, each hectare takes 80 hours, so we need 9.15*80 or 732 man-hours per year for the chickens and their feed.

Shouldn't this be 2.5*500*2=2500 Kg of corn? 1300kg per hectare with x2 for corn = 2600kg produced for one hectare of corn. 2500 kg of corn for 10% of the flock?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

My reading is that the base cost is used when establishing or expanding a farm for things like additional harnesses, tractors, buildings, etc. The input cost is recurring for things like seeds, fertilizer, etc. So it you are just building a settlement under the assumption it is functioning normally, you really can ignore all the base costs, since those would have already been paid, and just use the input costs to determine the overhead of running the farms in this case. Same would hold true for all the industrial and energy sectors.

All the descriptions of base cost talk about durable equipment and personnel training. That is why if the settlement is assumed to be stable, you can ignore those. If there was a plague or something that wiped out people, equipment or structures, the base costs would have to be paid again. At least that is how I read it.

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

This gets two sentences to explain what they are for.... Then you figure out...... never to need it.. Ridiculous. (Pg 237)

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

This gets two sentences to explain what they are for.... Then you figure out...... never to need it.. Ridiculous. (Pg 237)

I wouldn't say you never need it. You just don't need it to start. Assume your TL E settlement has some bandits or a band of mercenaries that come through, take some food and then raze half the farm land. To rebuild those farm lands, you need to take the base cost and multiply by the lands lost to determine how many man hours to rebuild. You might have to reduce your iron output for a while to get the crops back. So the base cost has use, but not for building your initial settlement.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

I am still trying to figure out the tech level modifiers though.

Where to use and how to apply the "Traits" modifier is confusing me too.

Did you make any headway on how to apply these?

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Where to use and how to apply the "Traits" modifier is confusing me too.

Did you make any headway on how to apply these?

The traits apply to how many man-hours a single worker generates in a year. All the numbers for labor needed in Ag, Extraction, Manufacturing are based on a 2000 man-hour year. So 1 labor year = 2000 man-hours. But if discipline, curiosity or organization is high, then a single worker produces more than 2000 man-hours in a year. I did one example of a TL B town that was organized by members of one branch of the armed forces. I gave them organization and discipline both of 80%. This resulted in each worker producing 2360 man-hours annually rather than 2000. The traits also affect the number of workers from the population, again higher discipline giving a boost.

As an example, let's use the hypothetical ranch we have been using. If we up the discipline to 85%, we get a 14% Labor bonus (number of workers) and a 14% Labor hour bonus. Rather than the 5 workers producing 2000 man-hours per year each, this change gives us 6 workers producing 2280 man-hours per year each. It doesn't really change the fact we need 2 farmers with the extra productivity per worker, but we do get an additional worker.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

The traits apply to how many man-hours a single worker generates in a year. All the numbers for labor needed in Ag, Extraction, Manufacturing are based on a 2000 man-hour year. So 1 labor year = 2000 man-hours. But if discipline, curiosity or organization is high, then a single worker produces more than 2000 man-hours in a year. I did one example of a TL B town that was organized by members of one branch of the armed forces. I gave them organization and discipline both of 80%. This resulted in each worker producing 2360 man-hours annually rather than 2000. The traits also affect the number of workers from the population, again higher discipline giving a boost.

As an example, let's use the hypothetical ranch we have been using. If we up the discipline to 85%, we get a 14% Labor bonus (number of workers) and a 14% Labor hour bonus. Rather than the 5 workers producing 2000 man-hours per year each, this change gives us 6 workers producing 2280 man-hours per year each. It doesn't really change the fact we need 2 farmers with the extra productivity per worker, but we do get an additional worker.

Ok, I was wondering what percentage they were talking about...I though that the text was talking about the labor distribution percentage.

They mean the community traits, as listed, per each encounter group establishing that settlement..... Aka Krell, Ballooners, Badges, Frozen Chosen, etc.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

They mean the community traits, as listed, per each encounter group establishing that settlement..... Aka Krell, Ballooners, Badges, Frozen Chosen, etc.

Yes, though I get the feeling that those are average values for those groups and that there may be some variability in them. For instance, not all townspeople will be straight 50% across all traits everywhere.