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  #1  
Old 07-24-2018, 05:33 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Default The Psychology of Prime Base

If Prime was actually started in the 1960s and 1970s it may have predated freeze technology.

Freeze technology would have changed everything about the Project. Before that, it was a case of "riding the storm out" awake and vulnerable. There are a number of ways to do this, one is to disperse assets into as many widely separated locations. These will be cheap, easy to hide, probably not hardened and put all over the middle of nowhere. The other method will be to build a very limited number of highly valuable highly protected sites that are highly hardened and protected.

If Prime Base was originally one of, perhaps the only, of these high-value installations it would have had a very different original mission than that described in the module. It would have been designed, supplied and staffed to become the core of the rebuilding. The key here is "staffed".

If Prime Base (and potentially other bases) were originally meant to ride things out and actively rebuild they would have been filled with people selected for that job. These would have been "colonist families". There would have been a lot of the "support" skills, medical, agriculture, crafts and trades and such. As the Project gets new technology (freeze and fusion) the mission would evolve drastically, as would the operational planning.

What becomes with the original core of Prime Base? They can't be returned to the normal population. Not only are the original "colonists" there, but their children as well. There might have been a subtle conflict between the newcomers who were sent to Prime when its mission changed and the old guard who had been there for a decade or more. If the mission changes in 1975 there will be almost 15 years between closing up and the war starting and another couple of years after that. During all this time there might have been a lot of discussions concerning what would happen after the war ended.

By the time refugees show up what will feelings be in the population of the base? Will some of the most senior people, who may be well respected by a large number of the residents be thirsting for the chance to help someone? These "old timers" may have been in the roles of educators and medical staff within the base. These informal leadership positions may have substantial "soft" influence within the community.

It may come down to a techies vs hippies argument as the refugees start filling in the area near the base.

This would not have been an ideal situation. It might never have even been identified before the war happened and it developed.
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Old 07-24-2018, 06:54 PM
nuke11 nuke11 is offline
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That is one of the problems I have with Prime Base in the module.

Like you say in the other thread Prime Base has to be completed first, late 70's to early 80's. If it is "manned" for say 1980 to 1989 (3rd edition) or 1980 thru 2017 (4th edition), that is a long time for people and there families to be in Prime Base. At some point there will be a few adults / young adults that will want to leave and live a different life, or how about divorce inside of those families, how is that handled?

Personally Prime Base as a manned installation would be a problem. If it must really be a manned base, it should have no families and personnel are rotated in.
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Old 07-24-2018, 07:56 PM
.45cultist .45cultist is online now
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Originally Posted by nuke11 View Post
That is one of the problems I have with Prime Base in the module.

Like you say in the other thread Prime Base has to be completed first, late 70's to early 80's. If it is "manned" for say 1980 to 1989 (3rd edition) or 1980 thru 2017 (4th edition), that is a long time for people and there families to be in Prime Base. At some point there will be a few adults / young adults that will want to leave and live a different life, or how about divorce inside of those families, how is that handled?

Personally Prime Base as a manned installation would be a problem. If it must really be a manned base, it should have no families and personnel are rotated in.
What if the rumors of frozen backup meant most everyone is frozen, and a cadre is active?
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:09 PM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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Why is it that everyone always assumes that BEM, the guy who repeatedly travels through time, the guy who brings back advanced technology that could never have been developed prior to the war even without the Project, never brought back some estimate of the date of the war? It is the single most valuable thing he could give them, beyond fusion power or the universal antidote or even the fact of the Project's existence.

If he doesn't then the Project has to live every day as if the war could be tomorrow. That means a vast expenditure of people and money and resources. If he does... then they don't need to man PB until a year or two before the war starts, and the staff will be ideally selected from the best ever recruited AND will go into the ground with up to date knowledge of the situation and the resources without having wasted their lives disgruntled underground.

Seriously - there is a reason intelligence services are so important. Knowing what you have to deal with is the single biggest advantage in survival. It's the sensible thing and in no way detracts from the game. Heck, I would be disappointed if I fought all the way to PB and found it full of 70's technology and the remnants of 40 years of habitation.
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  #5  
Old 07-25-2018, 07:59 AM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Why is it that everyone always assumes that BEM, the guy who repeatedly travels through time, the guy who brings back advanced technology that could never have been developed prior to the war even without the Project, never brought back some estimate of the date of the war? It is the single most valuable thing he could give them, beyond fusion power or the universal antidote or even the fact of the Project's existence.
I totally agree here. Sure, the Project's activities may affect the actual date and time to some extent, but I am sure he came back with an initial estimate and modified it over time as it shifted. I mean how would he be able to get captains of industry to sign on to his idea of creating the CoT and MP if he didn't provide some short term proof the could see the future and supply them with a date for the war far enough into the future to make the Project even plausible. Prime Base can be a big empty structure until you get within 5 years or so of the war. Then put in the best and most proven tech developed or reverse engineered from the future in those last few years.
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  #6  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:54 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Why do you assume that BEM was working in a single timeline? If he knew everything about the future how did everything get so FUBAR? Is this the best Bruce could put together?

If Bruce has too much specific information about the future there end up being a lot of questions. Did he know how the war started? If so could he not have prevented it? How did he let Prime get knocked out? Could he have stopped Krell?

Instead, I have always felt that is an ever-branching river. Ever decision point leads to a new path. Infinite numbers of BEMs move through infinite iterations of the multiverse. In some, the War comes far earlier than in others. In some, it NEVER happens. In some, the Project hops right out of bed and gets to it. Two other versions are the versions in print, classic and current.

This also means that every PD is playing in their own version of the realities BEM was trying to prepare for the future.
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  #7  
Old 07-25-2018, 03:14 PM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
Why do you assume that BEM was working in a single timeline?
Because that is the simplest way to plan things. Sure, there are an infinite number of world lines that pass through any single point in space-time. There are also an infinite number of world lines that do not pass through that same point. This gives us an infinite number of possible pasts and futures for every instance we experience, as well as an infinite number of pasts and futures that never happen. So the question is which Bruce Morrow comes back with tech? The one that wants to save the US, the one that wants to be it emperor, the one that is an ally of Krell or one that is a puppet of Krell? Quantum mechanics says all of these are possible. What happens when Bruce Morrow meets Bruce Morrow? This is what happens and needs to be addressed when you take a more complete quantum mechanical view of time travel. Such complications are not as great with a single past and infinite futures, which is what I assumed in my reply above.
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  #8  
Old 07-25-2018, 04:49 PM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
Why do you assume that BEM was working in a single timeline?
Because it gives everything meaning. If there is one timeline, fighting for it is important. If there a million, it doesn't matter - it's just statistics.

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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
If he knew everything about the future how did everything get so FUBAR?
He is a time traveler, not a god. He is neither omniscient nor omnipotent, and the nature of his time travel almost certainly imposed limitation. You can do everything right and still fail.

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Is this the best Bruce could put together?
It isn't a performance review. He built something amazing. That it failed due to unforeseeable factors outside his control is NOT his fault.

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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
If Bruce has too much specific information about the future there end up being a lot of questions.
He is a mortal man. Limitations on his knowledge are natural, especially about post-war when he can't grab a newspaper or check the internet.

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Did he know how the war started? If so could he not have prevented it?
Probably not, but even if he did it is a whole different matter to day he could have prevented it even with the CoT. Wars don't start from single events, they happen due to the history of millions and millions of people, and derailing that is all but impossible. Again, he's not a god.

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How did he let Prime get knocked out? Could he have stopped Krell?
By being a mere imperfect human being. And... no? Define exactly what Krell is and I'll give a better answer.

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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
Instead, I have always felt that is an ever-branching river. Ever decision point leads to a new path. Infinite numbers of BEMs move through infinite iterations of the multiverse. In some, the War comes far earlier than in others. In some, it NEVER happens. In some, the Project hops right out of bed and gets to it. Two other versions are the versions in print, classic and current.
As previously mentioned, I dislike this because it makes it just another round of a video game. A million BEMs try to save their worlds. Some WILL succeed. Some WILL fail. Why should a being able to know that care about any one of those worlds? I prefer the tension of knowing that there is one world and the consequences are therefore total.

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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
This also means that every PD is playing in their own version of the realities BEM was trying to prepare for the future.
This... is irrelevant. Every game in existence has multiple groups playing in as many variations. I don't need a multi-universe theory to be okay with that.
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  #9  
Old 07-25-2018, 09:34 PM
.45cultist .45cultist is online now
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TMP meets the "12 Monkeys".
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  #10  
Old 07-26-2018, 05:04 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Because it gives everything meaning. If there is one timeline, fighting for it is important. If there a million, it doesn't matter - it's just statistics.
Really, how do the people in the universe know its one in a million? To the people in it (except for time travelers) there is only one so to them, it is worth fighting for.
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  #11  
Old 07-27-2018, 11:28 AM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
Really, how do the people in the universe know its one in a million? To the people in it (except for time travelers) there is only one so to them, it is worth fighting for.
But BEM is a time traveller. Either he knows that there are multiple universes (in which case he has to know that he is merely moving his personal consciousness between them without really changing anything and that therefore his efforts are meaningless) or he doesn't (in which case the whole "multiple universes" idea becomes completely and totally irrelevant).

Note that it is possible to be working in a single, mutable timeline... it just means that certain paradoxes and issues become problems and others don't. If there are multiple timelines then nothing matters, because jumping back immediately mandates that you move onto a wholly new timeline. The original timeline was predicated on you doing certain things, and there is 0% chance that you jump into the future and back again and continue your life 100% exactly as you would have had you not made those jumps. You go back and make some changes, no matter how small, and that means you are in a new universe.

But what about the old universe? It has to exist, to avoid paradoxes, and therefore it must presumably continue. This means that the apocalypse is still happening in that universe, you have just entered a new universe where it is ameliorated somewhat.

But doesn't that mean you at least saved the new universe? No. Because unless you invested a universe's worth of energy, you didn't create that universe, you just moved into it. Indeed, there are a lot of theories that suggest that time travel is impossible for these reasons without either there being infinite universes or a single mutable universe that allows for "sideways time" or some other method that describes how you can change a universe without changing it.
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Old 07-27-2018, 11:33 AM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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Really, how do the people in the universe know its one in a million? To the people in it (except for time travelers) there is only one so to them, it is worth fighting for.
They may understand that one way or the other, that this is their universe because they cannot personally time travel out of it. But it still has a potentially huge moral, philosophical, and theological impact that could undermine morale, and I would expect this to be an area where the members of the Project were both impressively well educated and very passionate. The fact of the apocalypse, demonstrated through the artifacts of time travel, are at the core of recruiting for the Project. They are not trying to lessen a potential apocalypse, they are trying to lessen a definite and proven apocalypse. I cannot imagine that there are many teams of educated, passionate people, sacrificing everything they have based on the word of a time traveler, who would not intensely debate the implications of time travel.

Heck, I don't know how you get them in the tubes without them having an answer. Maybe the Project was only able to recruit the ones who would accept without questioning? If so, I cannot imagine they have many real scientists.

Wait... new idea for Krell: He was a Morrow team member who understood the terrible implications of time travel, understood that there were infinite universes and that therefore had nothing had any meaning. So he said "to heck with it!" and became a nihilist. Or decided that he needed to eliminate time travel (aka BEM) and potentially everyone who knew that it was a real thing. That's why he hates the Project, he is trying to return the Earth to an innocent time when people thought their lives had any uniqueness or meaning.
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  #13  
Old 07-27-2018, 06:44 PM
gamerguy gamerguy is offline
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Wait... new idea for Krell: He was a Morrow team member who understood the terrible implications of time travel, understood that there were infinite universes and that therefore had nothing had any meaning. So he said "to heck with it!" and became a nihilist. Or decided that he needed to eliminate time travel (aka BEM) and potentially everyone who knew that it was a real thing. That's why he hates the Project, he is trying to return the Earth to an innocent time when people thought their lives had any uniqueness or meaning.
In the universe I played in Krell was a Morrow Industries or COT underling who had some special ability (deal with local authorities) so limited use. He found out too much about TMP for his security level and not being accepted as a team member knew his fate.

He punched out with enough on the project to be dangerous but made himself important and known enough in political circles he couldn't have an accident. He was just a worker, not a team member so he never disappeared.

He raided a bolt hole, spaced the team and set himself up for the big sleep. In his case he woke up on time and proceeded to build an empire from the ashes. He compromised many teams and used their bolt holes to keep re-freezing himself for 10 year jumps. Came awake for a year directing his empire then back to bed. His paranoia combined with the repeated freeze thaw cycles twisted him into what he became. Plus those he left in charge during his down time had their own agendas further warping the empire. By the time I was out he was the god like leader who never died, just long sleeps. I tried to help him along to THE BIG SLEEP but no joy and the Amerindian Nations suffered his wrath as they were receiving my help in those days. He also stopped sleeping after my attack as he personally wanted revenge.

BTW BEM did not die, although I felt he wanted to. I have met him twice since I was activated. Having worked for Morrow Industries pre war on a few adaptations of vehicles for TMP use I had met him a few times in the before.
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