More on Prime Base-I've been off for a while

[Project_Sardonicus]

Of course an interesting thought is did anyone actually expect the Prime Base to survive?
Bear with me on this.
Prime Base would have begun planning in say the 1960s and construction in the 1970s. Back in those days it was feasible to build a bunker that couldn't just be blown up by a couple of nukes. Cheyenne Mountain could take a 30 meg hit if it hit about a mile away. By the 80s most Russian nukes could be dropped within a couple of hundred meters. These included those fired from a submarine hiding off the coast of California. So Prime Base for all its amazing sophistication was as likely as not to vanish in a burst of light as soon as the end war kicked off. Perhaps mistaken by a Russian spy sat for a NORAD base or some such thing being constructed. You can't protect anything really from 30 million tonnes of TNT a couple of streets away.

As such the staff on board would probably be a bit more "second rank and disposable" than the actual key Morrow project staff. Most likely when they weren't killed within the first hours, never mind the months of the war they were delighted. It may also explain why they started saving the world so disasterously.

To beat the power of the nuke, the only real solutions were dispersal and secrecy. So like any government the Morrow project would have probably invested in disparate sites all over the place. A small regional airport with surprisingly large runways, a local hospital with a large number of speciality wards and a nearby solar farm. These sites might need some basic strenghtening and have really good air filtration systems. But mostly they would just be secret and dispersed. This can be seen in scenarios such as Starnaman.

As such Prime Base may just be a very fancy, expensive, white elephant an example of a much older version of the project. The actual Project maybe in far better shape than the players realise.

Finally why would you build the actual headquarters in the continential USA? For obvious reasons this is an option the US government wouldn't have had. But supposing the actual hq of the project were linked via dedicated land cables to regional hqs etc it could be anywhere, far from potential hits. Perhaps Antarctica or a remote Carribean island. Maybe the actual leadership is still slumbering many miles away waiting too for their signal?

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

Of course an interesting thought is did anyone actually expect the Prime Base to survive?
Bear with me on this.
Prime Base would have begun planning in say the 1960s and construction in the 1970s. Back in those days it was feasible to build a bunker that couldn't just be blown up by a couple of nukes. Cheyenne Mountain could take a 30 meg hit if it hit about a mile away. By the 80s most Russian nukes could be dropped within a couple of hundred meters. These included those fired from a submarine hiding off the coast of California. So Prime Base for all its amazing sophistication was as likely as not to vanish in a burst of light as soon as the end war kicked off. Perhaps mistaken by a Russian spy sat for a NORAD base or some such thing being constructed. You can't protect anything really from 30 million tonnes of TNT a couple of streets away.

As such the staff on board would probably be a bit more "second rank and disposable" than the actual key Morrow project staff. Most likely when they weren't killed within the first hours, never mind the months of the war they were delighted. It may also explain why they started saving the world so disasterously.

To beat the power of the nuke, the only real solutions were dispersal and secrecy. So like any government the Morrow project would have probably invested in disparate sites all over the place. A small regional airport with surprisingly large runways, a local hospital with a large number of speciality wards and a nearby solar farm. These sites might need some basic strenghtening and have really good air filtration systems. But mostly they would just be secret and dispersed. This can be seen in scenarios such as Starnaman.

As such Prime Base may just be a very fancy, expensive, white elephant an example of a much older version of the project. The actual Project maybe in far better shape than the players realise.

Finally why would you build the actual headquarters in the continential USA? For obvious reasons this is an option the US government wouldn't have had. But supposing the actual hq of the project were linked via dedicated land cables to regional hqs etc it could be anywhere, far from potential hits. Perhaps Antarctica or a remote Carribean island. Maybe the actual leadership is still slumbering many miles away waiting too for their signal?

Seems like a lot of work for a stalking horse.

[mmartin798]

I don't think Sardonicus is suggesting that Prime Base was purposely built to be a stalking horse, but rather that the changing technology climate made the original design less secure and as such its role was changed. Just like his example of Cheyenne Mountain where NORAD Command has been moved and Cheyenne Mountain was redesignated the NORAD Alternate Command. It is possible that the Prime Base we are discussing was redesignated as the Alternate MP Command and that a second location is the actual MP Command. Kind of like how the books say there are two bases.

[dragoon500ly]

I can see the construction of a new hole in Nevada attracting Soviet interest so, of course, it must be a new military installation and thus deserving a couple of MIRVs.

Perhaps it would be more logical to go with a mine that is worked for several years and then closed.

As far as if this is THE Prime Base, or the Alternative Prime Base, perhaps it is the facility were Bruce parked all of the old Council of Tomorrow as they reached the end of their usefulness, just gives the PD more ways to entertain the players...

[ArmySGT.]

I am different from everyone else. I structure my vision of the Project as a Corporation and not a Military.

It has Departments and Divisions, but the only Branches that have a military hierarchy are Recon and MARS.

While a base or Prime Base has a commander, this person is running the day to day stuff; not the strategic. The Project has a Board of Directors meant to be thawed as the precursor to the Five Year plan.

So I am fully in line with things not going like a General or Admiral might have done it. It is a corporation that organizes and prepares stunningly well; yet may stumble on implementation.

[RandyT0001]

In late '70s with the ghost of Vietnam still influencing the US military strategic thinking, the army placed the research and reference material derived from its experiences in WW2 about military government and civil affairs in the deepest, darkest library shelf it could find with the attached note "Contents non-viewable". The US government, the US military and, especially, the US Army was 'out of the nation building business'. The few experienced servicemen involved in such endeavors would be reluctant to include that on a resume, making it difficult for the MP to recruit them because that skill set, nation building, is exactly what the MP needs in a five year, post war environment.

Fast forward to 2003. In January, two months before the invasion, the Office for Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance (ORHA) was created as a caretaker administration once the Iraq government was dissolved with the 2003 invasion. Those dust encased books about US military government and the transition to civil authority of Germany post WW2 sitting on the last shelf were found and opened. Once the military mission was accomplished, the Coalition Provisional Authority was installed. The reconstruction of Iraq began primarily through private contracts. After fourteen months the Iraqi Interim Government was established. As of 2013, the reconstruction of Iraq continued and was judged to be a failure due to corruption and insurgent activities.

In 2000s + the MP has a larger pool to draw from of experienced servicemen involved in military and civil affairs than what was available in the 1970s and 1980s. As written in the 3rd edition of MP there was no regional command structure, C&C was located, exclusively, at Prime Base. In 4th edition, the addition of the regional command structure was added. Now, the teams would coordinate activities through a regional commander who was under the supervision of Prime Base. This layer would be have many personnel that had military or contract experience in the M&CA activities of the Iraq war and reconstruction. IMO, this was implemented as a last resort mission "fail-safe" in case PB (and BuPB) was (again) destroyed. A regional commander (typically, a general or field grade officer with M&CA command experience) would know the wake-up codes of some of the teams (including a few group commanders) within his region to activate. From one regional base and command team the process of rebuilding the US could begin without PB. The overall process would take longer but it could be done.

[Project_Sardonicus]

In the real world it can be interesting to consider that there were only really two kinds of bunkers. The military ones like Titan Silos or aircraft shelters on base. Who's only basis was to give some key staff and equipment are passable chance of surviving a surprise attack.

And then command and control bunkers, who's sole purpose was just that command and control.

They took information in, processed it and sent instructions back out again.

In the UK the old government HQ bunker just outside of London is now a museum and it's an interesting view point into the thinking of how these things worked. It's pretty big built over 3 levels (so about the size of one of the 15 inner buildings in Cheyenne mountain so 6% the size). It would have had space for up to about 600 staff.
And would have operated like a warship (a submarine most likely no one gets on or off).

This would have meant.

1 Hot bunking and a very small locker for your belongings if you were lucky.
2 Strict rationing on water (about a litre a day and chemical toilets)
3 MREs the only source of food
4 A medical bay as opposed to any sort of hospital.
5 All staff would have been focused on the task of getting information via telex, radio then processing it, then back out again. Or actually maintaining the bunker (mechanics, electricians etc) or being in charge of services in the outside world (e.g. one person being supreme commander for all the police services for millions of citizens).
6 Most military staff would be signal corp communciation engineers. With a very limited role in maintaining order and providing military services so to speak. According to interviews I've read about soldiers on these dutys during these exercises, the arsenal of the bunker would have been a locked case containing 2-4 38 Webley revolvers of WW2 vintage and maybe 100 rounds of pistol ammo.
In theory other troops would be guarding the perimeter around the bunker. Not counting senior officers in the bunker its self etc.


Obviously this is nothing like Prime Base, which was meant to stay open for 5 years. Most bunkers of any size were expected to stay locked down and operating for no more than 3 months.

But it offers some interesting thoughts. The space in a bunker is amongst the most expensive in the world, so it can't be wasted. If you park one v-150 or even a humvee its taking space for maybe a week of week for the residents or bed space for 20.

As such it increases my view that Prime Base was a big white elephant and the actual project may still be slumbering else where.

http://www.secretnuclearbunker.com/t...-e321d028-a99d

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I am different from everyone else. I structure my vision of the Project as a Corporation and not a Military.

It has Departments and Divisions, but the only Branches that have a military hierarchy are Recon and MARS.

While a base or Prime Base has a commander, this person is running the day to day stuff; not the strategic. The Project has a Board of Directors meant to be thawed as the precursor to the Five Year plan.

So I am fully in line with things not going like a General or Admiral might have done it. It is a corporation that organizes and prepares stunningly well; yet may stumble on implementation.

I can see this, and I agree

[Project_Sardonicus]

Yup I tend to agree with Army Sgt, but I think one of the issues is who's actually in charge?

I'm not sure the MARS major or general or whatever his rank is would automatically knuckle under the commands of the CEO of the science division.

Who would have the highest authorising password to operate the various items of equipment?

It's an interesting question, I mean in essence there would be no external authority to sort these things out.

I think it leads to an intriguingly chaotic setting.

What happens when the science division demands 50 MARS troopers fight a suicidal rear action so they can evacuate a really important lab.

or conversely[LIST]


What happens when the local MARS commander decides he's going to draft all the agricultural experts as infantry in his brilliant campaign to crush Krell once and for all.

As the team wake up the project and its component parts is it stirring up a dormant hornets nest?

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I am different from everyone else. I structure my vision of the Project as a Corporation and not a Military.

It has Departments and Divisions, but the only Branches that have a military hierarchy are Recon and MARS.

While a base or Prime Base has a commander, this person is running the day to day stuff; not the strategic. The Project has a Board of Directors meant to be thawed as the precursor to the Five Year plan.

So I am fully in line with things not going like a General or Admiral might have done it. It is a corporation that organizes and prepares stunningly well; yet may stumble on implementation.

I think Corporate and Military management structures have come a lot closer than they used to be. Corporate Boards don't exercise a lot of strategic command, they select the executives who do. I would not say that the Project would be explicitly military any more than it had to be, but I think the way it needs to operate and the things it needs to do would make it more like a military (or at least defense contractor) than a conventional corporation.

But I confess that I am not entirely sure what distinctions you are seeing between corporate and military, if you would elaborate I would appreciate it.

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I think Corporate and Military management structures have come a lot closer than they used to be. Corporate Boards don't exercise a lot of strategic command, they select the executives who do. I would not say that the Project would be explicitly military any more than it had to be, but I think the way it needs to operate and the things it needs to do would make it more like a military (or at least defense contractor) than a conventional corporation.

But I confess that I am not entirely sure what distinctions you are seeing between corporate and military, if you would elaborate I would appreciate it.

This may be the real reason why Prime Base failed. The Project was caught between two schools of thought. There were some places where the rigid command structure of the traditional military would work best and other points were a "board room" style would be more effective. The issue became how to interface and switch between these two forms of control.

So when the refugees show up on the Prime Base doorstep there is a conflict between the leadership. Unable to decide what to do the debate dragged on and more people arrived and more people died. The situation produced an intolerable strain in the base personnel. Being Americans (for the most part) they demanded a voice in the decision and the situation became a subject put to the vote of the Prime Base population. They made a group decision, it turned out to be a really bad one, but it was done by vote. It makes perfect sense to me that the people who would be selected by the Project would take the data they had and make the decision they did.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

Of course an interesting thought is did anyone actually expect the Prime Base to survive?

If they didn't, why build it? And why haven't the "real" leaders stepped up and taken command? The idea of the game requires that the Project command gets its head cut off, so if Prime Base isn't the actual command then you still have to account for the real one. And if the reason Prime Base isn't survivable is because it is too large (and I agree), isn't the answer to make it smaller?