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Old 06-27-2009, 11:03 AM
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Default The Vatican in T2K

I'm watching "Angels and Demons" and in the middle of the film I though...I can't remember anyone discussing The Vatican.

- OOBs
- Detailed History
- NPCs
- Timeline
- Adventure Ideas

So if any of my fellow board-members have any input it would be most appreciated.

...welll I'm going to watch the rest of it...even when it's not that good.

BTW: I saw a good Movie the other day - and I recommend it to anyone who have not seen it yet.

Die Fälscher


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0813547/
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Old 06-27-2009, 01:04 PM
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I think this may have been discussed at one point on the old boards, but I can't recall for sure...Re: adventure ideas, I'm sure someone once mentioned a scenario where their group met a group of Swiss Guards who were taking Pope John Paul II's body back to be buried in his native Poland.

I'm assuming that Rome would probably have been a target for NATO nukes, but I'd say it's quite plausible that the Vatican's sources might have got some forewarning and the Swiss Guard were able to evacuate the Pope and others to another location, perhaps the Papal Summer Palace Castel Gandolfo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castel_Gandolfo

From there perhaps the French might offer the Pope sanctuary? Avignon (for example) has a long association with the Papacy, and it might suit the French diplomatically to offer the Pope a safe haven, thus enhancing their reputation with catholics around the World? Another option might be to move to Switzerland, but from a gaming perspective France appeals to me more.
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Old 06-27-2009, 01:31 PM
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Vatican remain somewhere on the backside of my game especially as I considered that Rome was not nuked (I just don't see why it would be targeted).

One possibility with the fall of central government in Italy, however, would be to have Vatican taking control over Rome and over the Lazio, constituting a new Papal State. The pope would remain in Vatican City with Castle San Angelo being militarized again.

At the military level, the Swiss Guard would remain the pope's close guards while the italian units remaining in the Lazio could join and form a more popular army. At last, the local carabinieri could compose the heart of a religious police.

In the meantime, new ties could be built with Malta and with the Hospitalers. These knights could be the core of a new papal navy engaged in combat with the muslim pirates of North Africa.

At last, the company of jesus can quickly be turned into some kind of special force or secret service (IMO). They are found almost everywhere, they are already organized as a military and they have been known to fight in the past. They are less numerous nowadays but they are still found in more than 100 countries.

Moreover, monasteries can take over some of the social service of the defunct civil service, feeding the population, providing shelter and medical support.

I like the idea of the french hosting the Pope in Avignon again. This can be another Pope as it was the case around the year 1000 (A second pope can be an interesting political situation).

I don't recall we ever talked about religious powers in T2K but that might be an interesting subject. IMO several religious organizations will survive everywhere and retain some means of action: as part of an extended community or isolated as seen in the books on Poland.

Last edited by Mohoender; 06-27-2009 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 06-27-2009, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoender
At last, the company of jesus can quickly be turned into some kind of special force or secret service (IMO). They are found almost everywhere, they are already organized as a military and they have been known to fight in the past. They are less numerous nowadays but they are still found in more than 100 countries.
I think using the Jesuits as the Vatican's Secret Intelligence Service is a very good idea indeed.
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Old 06-28-2009, 01:36 AM
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In my groups campaign back when i was in the navy, we actually had the pope who succeeded Pope John Paul II was an East German preist. He was much younger than anyone would have thought (he was 32) since the cardinals felt they needed a young and vibrant Pope... This new Pope (i can't remember the name he chose for his regin) expanded the military forces that had been loyal to the Papal States. In fact he did alot more than just this. He adopted reforms of the priesthood (such as allowing priests to marry among the biggest and most controversial change), he also used the resources of the Catholic Church to establish Papal States around monestaries and cathedrals and the like....

This had alot of things happening in the campaign, especially since the leader of the biggest unit of the 'Polish Free Legion' was a Priest... It was through him that the GMs would provide information about what was going on around the world. Especially since the Papal states had their own communications and transport networks.

Yeah, we had an all-powerful Roman Catholic church in our campaigns.

We felt that there just had to be a major mover-and-shaker out there that had the resources that caused everyone else (including marauders) to think twice about pissing off...

When we played the 'Going Home' module, the Church wasn't to happy with how the French had occupied Belgium & Luxembourgh, half of the Netherlands and the Rhineland while turning a huge swath of the east bank of the Rhine into a dead zone. It was through the chuch who was allowed to go into the terrified German communities that was under martial law imposed by really violent French soldiers who blamed everything that had happened on Germany. It was because the Church had kept informing the British Army of the Rhine of what was going on in the occupation that the Anglo-American forces coming to Bremerhaven was ready for the 'sneak attack' that the french had planned on launching to destroy the surviving forces of the US European Command.

When the dust settled the Germans got back the Rhineland, Alasce-Lorrane was merged with Luxembourgh to create a buffer state seperating France and Germany, the Flemish portion of Belgium became the Republic of Flaners, and the German community of Belgium becomes part of the Netherlands.

Thus the majority of the forces assigned to US European Command had withdrew from Europe and headed back to the US after their last major battle. This also gave a reason for some to remain in Europe to oversee those forces who couldn't get to Bremerhaven (those forces still out in the field surrounded by hostile forces). And it also allowed us to set up the framework for when the 'Return to Europe' modules came out.

But I degress... Back to the Papal States.

Our campaign had Italy breaking into three states... Northern Italy became the Republic of Tuscony, Southern Italy and the islands of Sicly and Sardenia retained the name of the Italian Republic. But the the central provinces of Italy became the Papal States, with their capitol being the Vatican. The Papal states where protected by the Papal Self-Defense Force, made up of the Swiss Guards, and other historic military groups that where recommissioned by the Pople to protect the Church and its people.
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Old 06-28-2009, 08:19 AM
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Default :)

Lots of interesting scenarios. Good work gentlemen.
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:29 AM
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Here what I came up with did it a while ago, Canadian Army has some more when I talk to monday, I'll get him to post
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File Type: doc Armies in Vatican City.doc (117.0 KB, 89 views)
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Old 06-28-2009, 11:21 AM
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Depending on the source, H&k might not be used and they would use M12 Beretta smg instead.
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Old 06-28-2009, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohoender
Depending on the source, H&k might not be used and they would use M12 Beretta smg instead.
The Swiss Guard actually did use the PM-12 before they switched to H&K products.

BTW -- the Swiss Guard are not just a ceremonial force (though they also perform those duties). They are perhaps the best bodyguard unit in the world -- with training on par with some special operations units. And they are not trained in the Vatican or in Italy -- they're still trained in Switzerland, and you need to be at least a one-term veteran of an infantry type military unit before they'll even consider your application. They'd rather have special ops-type veterans.
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Old 06-28-2009, 08:21 PM
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IMO, despite being a loyal Catholic, you guys are overestimating the pro-Vatican politics of the Italians. I've not read a lot of it, but Italy as a modern state formed over the strong protests of the Pope. The original royal government was rather anti-Church, at least as a government. I don't think it was until the 1920s that the treaties establishing the Vatican City were in place.

Aside from that, I think Avignon is perhaps the *last* city in Europe that a Pope would flee to, even if Rome were nuked. The 2 or 3 popes that were in Avignon centuries ago were/are considered "anti-popes" under the thumb of the French king, while other popes were in place in the Vatican. {At one time, there were three popes, due to rivalries among the College of Cardinals.} I really don't think anyone wants to resurrect that specter. Having to flee the Vatican would be bad enough, but to open oneself to the appearance of a new schism would be worse.

In fact, I could easily see at least one new antipope electing himself, in the case of a Roman nuking-- which I find really, really unlikely by NATO.

Then-Pope John Paul II sneaking out to Poland, in the case of anti-clerical Italian government clamping down on things-- maybe. Switzerland or Spain seem possible as temporary havens, but staying put seems much more like him. While I have no doubt that by moving to Poland, he could be recognized as a ruler of that country, I cannot see him more or less abandoning the Church to take up a temporal realm.

How much of Church communications are working in 2000 is another open question. They don't have their own phone lines, but re-opening a messenger service seems quite likely. Given Europe's decreasing number of clergy and lay members since Vatican II, I'm not sure how much they would have to work with. Behind the Iron Curtain, there would be some strong influence, but it would depend on leadership in place.
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Old 06-29-2009, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adm.Lee
IMO, despite being a loyal Catholic, you guys are overestimating the pro-Vatican politics of the Italians.
I'm not sure because I don't think we included the politics in our reasoning (at least, I didn't). I don't think that Vatican take over with any support from the politics. IMO, it simply fills in the vacuum and takes control with support from the people.

What you say about politics make sense but the people's support might be much greater, especially in these time of turmoil. In addition, the Lazio is not that huge.

You are right also about their communication but they might be able to set up some kind of working network over southern Europe (at least they can emit as a radio). In addition, several cells might be working independently, even at the smallest level. In addition, I'm convinced that they would be the first to rely on pigeons again. Finally, a dedicated priest or monk will act on its own but he will continue to refer to the highest authority.

As a result, you can expect several schism to appear and that is interesting.

I agree with you about the "anti-pope" and I like the idea of Spain as a refuge.

Finally, we had been speaking of the catholics but I can see people turning to all kind of religions, depending on the regions and opportunities: Jews, Muslim, Evangelists, Orthodox, Hindu, Bhudist, Scientologist... (Marseille could well become a muslim city).
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Old 06-29-2009, 09:20 AM
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While rereading some of this thread I realize that some of us imagine the catholic church (or any religious movement) to be a monolitic political body. I don't think they are.

However, in case of chaos, they have a great advantage over civil political forces. They obey to the same agenda and don't need any kind of modern communication to maintain this. They act for the greatness of God and to expend the power of their church.

As a result, even when isolated, they will work toward this goal (at least that will be their main point). What is interesting is that this will generate all kinds of attitudes and actions (these are limited exemples):
- A monk can enter a crusade as with the "Black Madona" in Poland.
- A community might focus on relief the locals and providing them with some kind of stability (food, health care...).
- A Bishop can take over a small piece of land and rule it as a middle ages prince.
- A depraved priest can turn people into sexual slaves.
- I did some research on a monastery in Portugal. At some point (around the 17th century), this community was engaged in the commerce of women.

Last edited by Mohoender; 06-29-2009 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 06-29-2009, 06:13 PM
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Vatican City OBB
Security and Civil Defense Services Department
The Security and Civil Defense Services Department manages security and public order, together with the Pontifical Swiss Guard and with related Vatican departments and, when necessary, in conjunction with similar services in Italy and other countries.

Sodalitium Pianum (Fellowship of Pius X)
In reaction to the movement within the Roman Catholic Church known as Modernism, Pope Pius X issued in 1907 the encyclical Pascendi Dominici Gregis and the decree Lamentabili Sane, which condemned the movement as a heresy. To ensure enforcement of these decisions, Monsignor Umberto Benigni organized, through his personal contacts with theologians, an unofficial group of censors who would report to him those thought to be teaching condemned doctrine. This group was called the Sodalitium Pianum, i.e. Fellowship of Pius (X), which in France was known as La Sapinière. Its frequently overzealous and clandestine methods hindered rather than helped the Church's combat against Modernism. Cardinal Secretary of State Rafael Merry del Val prevented the association from gaining canonical recognition, and the competent department of the Roman Curia disbanded it in 1921 on the grounds of "changed circumstances". According to Yves Congar O.P., the network remained operational to some degree until the early years of the Second World War.

Optimus Tutela [Noble Guard](Horse Guards)
The Noble Guard was one of the guard units of the Vatican. It was formed by Pope Pius VII in 1801 as a regiment of heavy cavalry. Initially, the regiment was tasked with providing escort for the Pope and other senior Princes of the Church, and missions within the Papal States at the behest of the pope. With the unification of Italy and the confiscation of the Papal States in 1870, the Noble Guard became a corps of foot guards. The corps was a volunteer one - its members were not paid for their service, and had to pay for their own equipment. One of the subordinate positions within the corps was that of Hereditary Standard-Bearer, who was responsible for carrying the standard of the Catholic Church. The Noble Guard made its appearance in public only when the pope took part in a public function; when the pope withdrew, he was followed by the Noble Guard. During the Second World War, the Noble Guard shared responsibility with the Swiss Guard for the personal security of Pope Pius XII. The guard was abolished by Pope Paul VI in 1970 as part of the reforms of the Church following Vatican II.

Pontificia Cohors Helvetica [Pontifical Swiss Guard](Foot Guards)
The history of the Swiss Guards has its origins in the 15th century. Pope Sixtus IV (1471-1484) already made a previous alliance with the Swiss Confederation. The pact was renewed by Innocent VIII (1484-1492) in order to use them against the Duke of Milan. During the time of the Borgias, however, the Italian Wars began in which the Swiss mercenaries were a fixture in the front lines among the warring factions, sometimes for France and sometimes for the Holy See or the Holy Roman Empire. The mercenaries enlisted when they heard King Charles VIII of France was going to raise a war against Naples. Among the participants in the war against Naples was Cardinal Giuliano della Rovere, the future Pope Julius II (1503-1513), who was well acquainted with the Swiss having been Bishop of Lausanne years earlier. The expedition failed in part thanks to new alliances made by Alexander VI against the French. When Cardinal della Rovere became pope Julius II in 1505, he asked the Swiss Diet to provide him with a constant corps of 200 Swiss mercenaries. In September 1505, the first contingent of 150 soldiers started their march towards Rome, under the command of Kaspar von Silenen, and entered the city on January 22, 1506, today given as the official date of the Guard's foundation. Ceremonially, they shared duties in the Papal household with the Palatine Guard and Noble Guard, both of which were disbanded in 1970 under Paul VI. Today the Papal Swiss Guard have taken over the ceremonial roles of the former units.

Palatine Tutela (Palatine Guard) (Militia)
The Palatine Guard was a military unit of the Vatican. It was formed in 1850 by Pope Pius IX, who ordered that the two militia units of the Papal States be amalgamated. The corps was formed as an infantry unit, and took part in watch-keeping in Rome as well as various battles, including the defense of Rome against soldiers from Piedmont. After 1870 and the unification of Italy, the corps was confined to the Vatican. The Palatine Guard were usually seen either when the Pope was in St Peter's Square, or when a Head of State visited the Vatican. Members of the corps were volunteers, who were not paid for their service (though they received an allowance for replacement or repair of their uniforms). The corps was also the only one in the service of the Vatican to have a full military band. The Second World War was a high point in the history of the Palatine Guard. In September 1943, when German troops occupied Rome in response to Italy's conclusion of an armistice with the Allies, the Guard was given the responsibility of protecting Vatican City, various Vatican properties in Rome, and the pope's summer villa at Castel Gandolfo. The guardsmen (mainly Roman shop keepers and office clerks) whose service had previously been limited to standing in ranks and presenting arms at ceremonial occasions, now found themselves patrolling the walls, gardens and courtyards of Vatican City and standing post at the entrances to papal buildings around the Eternal City. On more than one occasion this service resulted in violent confrontations with Italian Fascist police units working with the German authorities to arrest political refugees who were hiding in buildings protected by the Vatican. At the outbreak of the Second World War in September 1939 the Palatine Guard mustered some 500 men, but by the liberation of Rome in June 1944 the corps had grown to 2000 men. The corps was abolished in 1970 by Pope Paul VI as part of the reforms of the Church following the Second Vatican Council.

The Guardie dei Fuoco [Fire Brigade]
The earliest Vatican firemen are remembered for their elegant uniforms, preserved in paintings and etchings held by the Vatican Archives. The modern firefighting team was reorganized in 1941, and the fire station is tucked into a corner of the Belvedere Courtyard, a crossroads of sorts at the Vatican. The Fire Department which provides emergency assistance and prevention aimed at safeguarding the people and patrimony of Vatican City State, in collaboration with the Technical Services Administration.

Gendarmerie Somes of Vatican Civitas [Gendarmerie Corps of the Vatican City State]
The Gendarmerie Somes of Vatican Civitas is responsible for security, public order, traffic control, criminal investigation, and other general police duties in Vatican City. A small number of the corps' officers travel with the pope to provide close-in security for the pontiff.

Equipment
SIG 550
SIG 510
MG3 Machine Gun
FN Minimi Light Machine Gun
HG 85 Hand Grenade
Mehrzweckgewehr 91 Shotgun (Remington 870 multipurpose shotgun)
MG 710 Machine Gun

Vehicles
Mercedes-Benz G-Class W463

Commissioned Officers
Oberst (Colonel — the Commandant of the Guard)
Oberstleutnant (Lieutenant Colonel — the vice-commandant)
Kaplan (Chaplain — Considered the same rank as a lieutenant colonel)
Major
Hauptmann (Captain)

[B]Non-Commissioned Officers[/B
Feldwebel (Sergeant-major)
Wachtmeister (Sergeant)
Korporal (Corporal)
Vizekorporal (Vice-corporal; closest British equivalent would be lance corporal)

Enlisted
Hellebardier/Gardist (Halbardier/Guardsman)

Also I have included one NPC Character

This could also be added to the OBB

Sovereign Military Order of Malta
The Sovereign Military Order of Malta is a Catholic order that is a sovereign entity under international law and has permanent observer status at the United Nations. The Order is the direct successor to the medieval Knights Hospitaller, also known as the Knights of Malta, and today operates as a largely charitable and ceremonial organization. Its headquarters in Rome are granted extraterritoriality by Italy. Unlike the Holy See, which is sovereign over the Vatican City, SMOM has no other sovereign territory, yet it does have full diplomatic relations, including embassies, with 100 states, and is in more informal relationship with five others. As a sovereign body it has the right to issues its own stamps, coins, passports, license plates, and maintain a military force, and does so at its Rome headquarters.

Military Corps of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta
Commonly referred to as The Military Corps of the Order, the military force in its present form was raised in 1877 and has enjoyed a continuous existence since that date, armed and uniformed members of the Corps are mainly used in ceremonial duties. By agreement with the Italian Government in 1877 the Military Corps came into being under the official title of 'Auxiliary Military Corps of the Italian Army - Sovereign Military Order of Malta', to assist the Italian army's injured or sick (in peace or war). In 1908 the agreement was modified so that the Corps, whilst remaining the official military unit of the Order, and under the command of the Order, also became a fully integral part of the Italian army. The Corps has become known in mainland Europe for its operation of hospital trains, a service which was carried out intensively during both World Wars.
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Old 06-29-2009, 11:35 PM
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Thanks CA, its great
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