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Old 07-06-2009, 07:47 AM
Littlearmies Littlearmies is offline
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Default BioGas Production

Hi,
I thought I had already posted something along these lines here but I couldn't find it - and I thought this was interesting enough to warrant putting up:

I was watching a programme on Sky the other evening about the production of methane from cow (and other manure) and was prompted to look on the web.

As an introduction for those of you unware of what is involved here is one site I found (complete with a link to a High School science project type model):

http://www.re-energy.ca/t-i_biomassbuild-1.shtml

Along with some more technical data:

http://www.clemson.edu/agbioeng/bio/...as-Summary.pdf

http://www.mda.state.mn.us/renewable/waste/default.htm

And some engines designed to operate with gaspower (although normal petrol engines can be adapted very easily):

http://www.clarke-energy.co.uk/gas_engines.html

And some statistics for the USA from 1997:

http://www.nass.usda.gov/census/cens...LIVSTCKNPOLTRY


Obviously, a GM would need to put in a bit of effort to come to some conclusions about how farm production in his area had fared. The key questions would be (off the top of my head):

1) How many animals were still alive? While the units in the examples owned hundreds of cows smaller scale collection of cowpoo (and indeed human, pig or chicken droppings) would also work.

2) Ability to collect the droppings and put them in the digester.

3) Source of water to add to the droppings to create a slurry (apparently an 8% solution of poo is best).

4) Ability to maintain the digester at the optimum temperature (the bacteria work best within certain temperature ranges).

Once you have the methane then obviously it can be used to generate electricity, power vehicles or (possibly best option) burnt directly for heating purposes. The slurry once it has gone through the digester can be used as fertiliser.

One of my first campaigns was based upon the attempt by a village to produce a large still to provide fuel for a large generator (which was another whole set of adventures) - obviously a biogas digester like this would be another option for a group to utilise.

I thought this was one of those alternative technologies which is basically simple enough to translate into TW2000 situations. I see agriculture as much less of a business and more a part of a medieval style subsistance economy in 2000. A village co-operative might have the cattle, pigs etc to produce the poo needed (although this is a technology that can be done on a very small scale) to run large scale bio-gas production but in my mind's eye I cannot see many farmers still owning a 100 cattle in 2000 as individuals.

I could see it as a source of adventures - being hired to stop cattle rustling, transporting cattle to a village expanding it's bio-gas facility. Or it could be one of the details adding colour to your game - young children being given the job of gathering up poo from fields to power the digestor, families putting out buckets of wee for collection by the "Petermen", that kind of thing.
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Old 07-06-2009, 08:11 AM
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We had a trial of public buses using CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) here in Perth a few years back. They ran just like diesel powered buses but their fuel range was shorter.
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Old 07-27-2009, 03:04 PM
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Default another alternative

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel
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Old 07-27-2009, 06:21 PM
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I love both of these ideas. Where are they going to be put into practice? Mind, I'm not criticising. I'm looking for a connection between geekerific ideas and the Twilight: 2000 world.

The Wiki connection notes that the DoE terminated the program in 1995. I wonder if a rejuvinated version could be worked into a modified v1 timeline. Federal tax revenues ought to boom from late 1995 onward, as the US kicks arms manufacture into high gear. The DoE might be able to continue the algae program, in which case we might be able to identify a location where the program is running in late 1997. I'll tie this idea into another thread on module/adventure hooks.

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Last edited by Webstral; 07-27-2009 at 09:52 PM. Reason: More Information
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webstral View Post
I love both of these ideas. Where are they going to be put into practice? Mind, I'm not criticising. I'm looking for a connection between geekerific ideas and the Twilight: 2000 world.

The Wiki connection notes that the DoE terminated the program in 1995. I wonder if a rejuvinated version could be worked into a modified v1 timeline. Federal tax revenues ought to boom from late 1995 onward, as the US kicks arms manufacture into high gear. The DoE might be able to continue the algae program, in which case we might be able to identify a location where the program is running in late 1997. I'll tie this idea into another thread on module/adventure hooks.

Webstral
Prompted by your liking for Algae I did a quick search and came up with this - not very T2K but pretty interesting

http://www.oakhavenpc.org/cultivating_algae.htm

http://www.sugf.com/Docs/DurangoHera...GrowGreens.pdf

Malcolm
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:41 AM
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Now this is rather more T2K - and a rather heartening example of ingenuity over adversity:

http://movingwindmills.org/story
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Old 08-02-2009, 01:04 PM
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The natural gas vehicles in my area are very common. Most city buses and many city vehicles are powered by compressed natural gas. As well as propane powered vehicles. A freind actualy had a full sized pickup that ran on it. It had good power and only needed refueling once on the trip from California to Oregon. In college while working security patrol the company purchased several former Las Vegas Taxi cabs all running on propane/natural gas. They ran the entire weekend on natural gas, Fri,Sat and Sun, when most vehciels would need to be refueled once a day <my route required refueling twice on my own shift>

As for the digester,

A local dairy, has one. They were on a local program Californias Gold with Huel Houser. They hose down the milking room floor and it goes into a channel which flows into the pond. A cover much like a pool cover acts as the collector. The methan goes to a generator which powers the entire farms operation with surplus left over.

In Vietnam they are using methane from their chamber pots and their small pig farms to provide gas lighting and heating and cooking in the isolated farms. This I can see being more common small scale capture and production for small villages and isolated farms using limited methane prodcution.

And then of course we have Macx Max Beyond Thunderdome and Barter Town, which would be similiar to the dairy farm mentioned above, this in my mind would be a greater possibility for coops, large farms and organized villages who would be able to defend themselves as well having the manpower and of course animals to do it.
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Old 08-02-2009, 09:39 PM
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Remember that CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) and LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) are not the same thing. CNG is easier to produce but you get much less bang for your buck in terms of fuel range for your vehicle than if you use LNG.
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Old 08-03-2009, 06:32 AM
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Oh come off it... a thread about biogas and not one person said...

PULL MY FINGER!!!
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Old 08-03-2009, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
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Oh come off it... a thread about biogas and not one person said...

PULL MY FINGER!!!
Sorry but that reference completely passes me by....would you like to explain it?
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Old 08-03-2009, 04:40 PM
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It is a very old joke related to ahem "Natural gas". I will let wikipedia explain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pull_my_finger
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:11 PM
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I guess it must be a North American thing......
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Old 08-04-2009, 03:07 PM
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There are other ways to produce biogas with cows. A monastery (Tamié) in savoy has done so for 5 years now.

They, are producing cheese and because of that they end up with a fair quantity of lactoserum. Until 5 years ago, they had to pay to get rid of that lactoserum. That process becoming increasingly expensive they are, now, using it to heat the water for the entire community.

They are extracting methane from the lactoserum (using a process I don't know anything about). Then, they use the methane to heat their water. I thought it could be interesting.
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Old 08-05-2009, 12:45 AM
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Default hullo

I dont remember - but did we get a realistic fuel production table posted here ? If not -has anyone got one -preferably one that gives stats for different kinds of production like methane ,ethanol,methanol,svg ( straight vegetable oil) etc - it need not be overly complicated imho - just in the ballpark ..

So if anyone has got anything - please let me know.( My players are getting filthy rich fast in our campaign using canon based tables ,so i need to put an end to it !)
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Old 08-05-2009, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlearmies View Post
I guess it must be a North American thing......
We have the same joke here in Australia.
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Old 08-06-2009, 06:16 PM
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I was wondering about the Biogas... it it the same as the Biodesiel? I had read somewhere about an additive that could be used that would cause petrol-based fuels to go further.. has anyone else heard about this?
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Old 08-06-2009, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natehale1971 View Post
I was wondering about the Biogas... it it the same as the Biodesiel? I had read somewhere about an additive that could be used that would cause petrol-based fuels to go further.. has anyone else heard about this?
Gas is an American colloquialism for petrol isn't it? I think what we are referring to when we talk about Biogas is methane/propane type fuels that are actually gaseous at sea level pressures, not liquid petrol. Biodiesel is usually vegetable oil or animal fat (plus additives).
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Old 08-06-2009, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Targan View Post
Gas is an American colloquialism for petrol isn't it? I think what we are referring to when we talk about Biogas is methane/propane type fuels that are actually gaseous at sea level pressures, not liquid petrol. Biodiesel is usually vegetable oil or animal fat (plus additives).
Danke, I'll see if i can find out where i had heard about the bio-desiel so i can share it with everyone.
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Old 08-07-2009, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
The raw materials required to produce one liter of alcohol fuel
are 1 kg of organic matter and 1 liter of water. These are combined
to produce 1.75 kg of mash, the basic organic mixture that will be
fermented and distilled.

The raw materials required to produce one liter of biodiesel
are 1 kg of vegetable oil, 0.12 liters of ethanol or methanol, and 1
unit of production chemicals (acids and catalysts). These amounts
scale linearly, so a 500-liter batch requires 500 kg of vegetable
oil, 60 liters of alcohol, and 500 units of production chemical
From the Twilight 2013 book.
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:37 AM
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Targan is spot on - Biodiesel is, loosely speaking, diesel fuel produced by recycling used vegetable oils (from restaurant fryers, potato crisp makers etc) or by using treated rape seed or palm oil. Biogas is the production of methane from biological waste materials including animal poo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_oil_used_as_fuel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioconv..._alcohol_fuels
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