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Old 07-07-2009, 06:19 AM
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Default Winter Cantonment Locations...

Hi everyone,

Something just came up in plans for the T2K campaign I am wanting to run here on these boards... just where are the locations of the Winter Cantonments of the subordinate units in the XI US Corps, the German Thrid Army and the British Army units as well... Just where did they spend their winter? I had always thought they spent the winter in North Eastern Corner of East Germany, and this was why they moved along the Baltic Coast to launch their offensive against the Soviets...

so... where did all of the fources end up spending their winter?
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Old 07-07-2009, 06:49 AM
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There might be some clues in The Black Madonna and Going Home... I recall there are passing mentions here and there in the town descriptions of places where US units have previously developed relationships with the locals.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:29 AM
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If we're talking the winter of December 2000, there's actually very little information (at least I was unable to find anything in canon while researching the spring 2000 offensive).

The references in Going Home and Black Maddonna mainly relate to events in 1997 during the intial NATO offensive before nukes were used.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker
If we're talking the winter of December 2000, there's actually very little information (at least I was unable to find anything in canon while researching the spring 2000 offensive).

The references in Going Home and Black Maddonna mainly relate to events in 1997 during the intial NATO offensive before nukes were used.
I'm wanting the info on Cantonments for the winter of 1999-2000. Where the forces had been prior to the NATO Summer Offensive that was launched in July 2000..
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:32 AM
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There's next to nothing for the period from late 1997 through to the 2000 offensive. For that matter, there's actually very little for 1997 besides some very generic references such as "took part in the drive through southern Poland" as an example.

I would suggest looking at where units are marked as of the 1st of July 2000, reading over their unit histories, and trying to work out for yourself just how they ended up there. As there was little action in the preceding 12-18 months....

However, the 3rd German Army, of which the US XI Corps is a part, does not have accurate locations for the 1st of July - those shown in most resources appear to be post spring offensive when they were effectively cut off (the XI Corp at least) from the rest of NATO and the 5th scattered all over Poland.

Perhaps looking at all the other units in Europe and finding the holes is the best approach?
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natehale1971
I'm wanting the info on Cantonments for the winter of 1999-2000. Where the forces had been prior to the NATO Summer Offensive that was launched in July 2000..
I know. In the Going Home module there are oblique references in some of the town descriptions about units that have previously been in the area (i.e. in cantonment over the previous winter) and some that have since returned after the summer offensive.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:48 AM
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Somewhere I came upon a details listing of the final areas of most of the major combat units and cantonment areas at the time of the Kalisz battle.

Now to find the damn thing...lol...

The Eastern European Sourcebook was pretty good at detailing the cantonments for that area too.

Quote:
5th “Saxon” Tank Division
Subordination: Polish 1st Tank Army
Current Location: Podgaje/Jastrowie/Pila, Poland
Manpower: 3500
Tanks: 16 T-72s

10th “Sudeten” Tank Division
Subordination: Soviet 4th Tank Guards Army
Current Location: Pleszew/Kalisz, Poland
Manpower: 2000
Tanks: 5 T-72s

1 st “Warsaw” Motorized Rifle Division
Subordination: Polish 2nd Army
Current Location: Czaplinek/Miroslawiec/Rusinowo, Poland
Manpower: 2500
Tanks: 7 T-72s

Krakow ORMO
(ex-8th “Dresden” Motorized Rifle Division)
the defense force of the Free City of Krakow.
Subordination: None
Current Location: Krakow, Poland
Manpower: 2000, + 6000 militia
Tanks: 2 T-80s

The Polish 8th MRD no longer exists, having formed the core of
9th “Dresden” Motorized Rifle Division
Subordination: Polish 1st Army
Current Location: Palanow/Miastko/Bytow, Poland
Manpower: 2500
Tanks: 10 T-55s

14th Motorized Rifle Division
The commander of this division has set himself up as leader
an autonomous state in southern Poland, styling himself the
Markgraf of Silesia.
Subordination: None
Current Location: Raciborz, Poland
Manpower: 1500
Tanks: None

2nd Cavalry Division (ex-2nd “Warsaw” MRD)
refitted with horses instead of vehicles.
This unit was badly mauled in the beginning of the war, and was;
Subordination: Polish 1st Army
Current Location: Gdynia, Poland
Manpower: 200 cavalry
Tanks: None

3rd Cavalry Division
the Germans in 1997 and reformed as horse cavalry in 1998.
Formerlythe3rd “Pomeranian”MRD,this unitwasdecimated by
Subordination: Polish 1st Army
Current Location: SlupsWUstkdLebork, Poland
Manpower: 1000 cavalry
Tanks: None

12th Cavalry Division
This division was formed from the remnants of the 11 th TD in
1998.
Subordination: Polish 1st Army
Current Location: KoscierzyndGniewflczew, Poland
Manpower: 1500 cavalry
Tanks: None

13th Cavalry Division
“Kashubian” TD in 1998.
This division was reformed from the remnants of the 13th
Subordination: Polish 1st Army
Current Location: Chojnice/Czluchow/Sepolno, Poland
Manpower: 1000 cavalry
Tanks: None

17th Cavalry Division
in 1998.
This division was reformed from the remnants of the 15th MRD
Subordination: Polish 2nd Army
Current Location: Dobiegniew/StrzelceMlronki, Poland
Manpower: 2000 cavalry
Tanks: None
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Last edited by Cdnwolf; 07-07-2009 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 07-07-2009, 08:59 AM
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I did find a couple of good references for the Kalisz battle including one heck of a great map.

http://www.arpeegee.com/kalisz.htm

Map
http://www.reocities.com/jimandpetalawrie/kalisz.jpg
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Old 07-07-2009, 05:43 PM
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The list you've got there is really only the Pact units that have defected/deserted. It's also EXTREMELY out of date.
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Old 07-08-2009, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker
There's next to nothing for the period from late 1997 through to the 2000 offensive. For that matter, there's actually very little for 1997 besides some very generic references such as "took part in the drive through southern Poland" as an example.
That's why the DC Group is wargaming the 1996-late 1997 campaign out. We hope to fill in many of those details.

Unfortunately, the Third World War rules we are using essentially break down after a strategic nuclear exchange. For example, the rules permit no reinforcements, which is not the case in canon.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:35 AM
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Interesting thread here including a nice article by Legbreaker on the 2000 offensive.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=354

A couple of things lead me to the belief, quite possibly wrong, that the German III Corps spent the winter of 99-00 in northwest Poland.

One is the opening of the Kalisz campaign history in the 1.0 boxed set stating the 5th ID's jumping off point as Chojnice. Chojnice is about 200km east of the Oder and the German/Polish border. If the 5th had to make it's way that far through contested territory, I would have expected some word on it. My assumption was that this point was somewhere near the 5th's winter quarters or at least near to an area held by a NATO unit that could provide security such that the 5th was essentially road marching to that point.

Second is that the rest of III Corps (Germans, US 116 ACR, Canadian 4th Mech) is currently in the area around Kolobrzeg in all canon listings. There doesn't seem to be a lot of these units going much of anywhere during the 2000 offensive, despite the fact that they were III Corps units. There was also no significant Soviet counteroffensive that far north that I can find a mention of. My supposition is that they were a blocking force against the Soviet 8th Guards Army to the south east of Berlin. They largely stayed put when the offensive went to hell and so are largely where they started.

I would put the III Corps winter quarters generally in the area bounded by Szczecin, Pila, Chojwice and Lebork with Kolobrzeg as the Corps HQ.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:58 PM
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Thank you guys for all the help you've given on this.. It's got me to respect just how much the DC working group has been doing!
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Old 07-08-2009, 09:35 PM
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Data from the vehicle guides is pretty sketchy.

There is no data on the US units in late 99.

5th ID: No info between October 1997 and 2000.
8th ID: Withdrawn for refit after heavy casualties in 1997. Reentered the lines under XI Corps in Jan 1998 but no data on location until 2000 offensive.
2nd MAR: Reformed in Northern Germany in January 1998. No data until 2000.
116 ACR: Transferred to XI Corps in May 1999 but no location until participated in 2000 offensive.
50th AD: No information after October 1997.

NATO Guide has very slightly more.

Canadian 4th Mech Brigade: Nothing from 1998 to 2000, but currently in winter catonments in and around Karlino, Poland.
German 29th Panzer: In Czechoslovakia in 1998. Moved by road to Baltic coast (country unclear) in September 1999. Part of 2000 offensive. Must have wintered in coastal DDR or Poland.
6th Panzergrenadier: Withdrawn in late 1998 after taking losses near Stutgart. Nothing until 2000 and then only to say part of the 2000 offensive.
21st Panzergrenadier: Similar. Nothing from 1997 to 2000 offensive.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:02 PM
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Going Home does little to clear up the matter. If anything, it muddies the waters. Here is what it has to say about placements as of Autumn 2000:

German 3rd Army:
HQ: Wintering in Kiel
6th PGD: Wintering in Hamburg
21st PGD: Wintering in Bremen
29th PD: Wintering in Lubeck
Looks like the 3rd Army pulled back pretty far between August and November.

US XI Corps:
HQ: Wintering in Kolobrzeg, Poland w/ 50th AD. Intelligence handout dated September 2000 lists Pila, Poland as last known location.
50th AD: As above.
4th Can MB: Wintering in Karlino, Poland.
116th ACR: Wintering in Nowogorod, Poland (ex. for B troop in Dobrodzien, Poland per Black Madonna).
2 Mar Div: Wintering in Bialogard, Poland. Apparently the location was unknown in the US Guide, but they have reappeared.
5th ID: Scattered across Poland, Germany and Romania ?!?.
8th ID: Catonment in Riga. Isolated elements across the Baltic states to Finland ?!?

I haven't combed in detail, but a quick read of the town entries makes no mention of prior year winter quarters for any 3rd army units.

I think as far as winter quaters, the advice from Escape from Kalisz is as good as any: "Good luck, you're on your own".
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:19 PM
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It is my understanding that very little large scale movement occured between approximately Christmas 1997 and the offensive of 2000. This can be explained by several important factors.

Firstly the extended period of sustained nuclear attacks by both sides virtually smashed any logisitical train the various armies had been relying on. Without fuel, they wouldn't be going anywhere, especially for the more mechanised western forces.

It would likely take some time for the realisation that the supply situation had dramatically and irreversably changed to sink in. It would take even longer for the units to adapt to the new situation and develop new systems, proceedures, and even technology (such as alcohol production and usage).

With the almost total destruction of prewar infrastructure, and the sudden pressing need for military units to be diverted to disaster relief and civil order missions, all the while trying to keep enough soldiers on the line to prevent successful enemy attack, there'd be very few people available to implement the necessary changes.

Once things settled down and there were less refugees to deal with (winter was harsh after all and summer wasn't much better with all the pandemics), focus could be shifted to the war effort once more. A reasonable estimate might be no less than 6 months from the last 1997 nuclear attacks to this stage.

And then there was another nuclear exchange, once more throwing the world into a panic....

So, it could be argued that recovery and adaption was unable to begin until spring of 1999. Throughout this year, only small scale raids took place, mainly one would think to secure vital resources in preparation for the following years offensives.

So, bearing in mind the upheaval after the nukes, and just how slow and torturous recovery might have been, it's quite conceivable units much bigger than a few hundred men, and certainly armoured units, remained in the same positions they'd been in at the beginning of 1998.


The positions shown in Going Home aren't particularly relevant to Christmas 1999 as by then reorganisation had been virtually completed. There'd also been a massive offensive and counteroffensive as well as the call for US troops to withdraw from Europe. Massive changes in unit dispositions would both be necessary, and for almost the first time in years, possible.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker
It is my understanding that very little large scale movement occured between approximately Christmas 1997 and the offensive of 2000. This can be explained by several important factors.
When did the big battles in Poland which were talked about in the Black Madonna module occur (the Battle of Czestochowa etc). I thought they were in 1998? In any case other than that I broadly agree with the last post.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:30 PM
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Canon has a few offensives in 1998.

(quotes from V1 Referee's Manual)
Quote:
1998
In late June, the Pact forces in southern Germany renewed their offensive in an attempt to seize the scattered surviving industrial sites in central Germany. Actually, the most intact parts of Germany were those areas in the south which had been under Warsaw Pact occupation, as neither side was willing to strike the area heavily. Galvanized into renewed action, NATO forces made a maximum effort to reform a coherent front, and the Pact offensive finally stalled along a line from Frankfurt to Fulda. In late August, NATO launched its own offensive from the area of Karl Marx Stadt, driving south to penetrate the Pact rear areas in Czechoslovakia. The thinly-spread Czech border guard units were quickly overwhelmed and Pact forces in central Germany began a precipitous withdrawal to Czechoslovakia, laying waste to southern Germany as they retreated.


1999 was pretty quiet.

Quote:
1999
In Europe, the fronts were static for most of the year. Low troop densities meant that infiltration raids became the most common form of warfare. The "front" ceased to be a line and became a deep occupied zone, as troops settled into areas and began farming and small-scale manufacturing to meet their supply requirements. Local civilians were hired to farm and carry out many administrative functions in return for security from the
increasing numbers of marauders roaming the countryside.

Last edited by kato13; 07-08-2009 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Targan
When did the big battles in Poland which were talked about in the Black Madonna module occur (the Battle of Czestochowa etc). I thought they were in 1998? In any case other than that I broadly agree with the last post.
Battle of Czestochowa was May 24-June 7, 1997.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kato13
Battle of Czestochowa was May 24-June 7, 1997.
Oops. The quality of the information in my posts on subjects like these takes a bit of a dive when I'm at work and I can't check my books before I start typing.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Targan
Oops. The quality of the information in my posts on subjects like these takes a bit of a dive when I'm at work and I can't check my books before I start typing.
Anything that initiates discussion is cool. Was fun reading "Black Madonna" again. Still has one of my favorites quotes

"However, all the valiant spirit in the world cannot make up for a lack of heavy artillery."
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Old 07-09-2009, 12:31 AM
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That battle took place during the initial NATO drive eastward just before the nukes were first used.
It wasn't until a little later that the engineers placed the nuclear demolition charge flattening what little was left standing after the seige.

I'd forgotten about the Pact offensives of 1998. Makes a lot of sense though when you consider their offensive doctrine.
They would also probably be able to adapt a lot quicker than western armies with the sudden lack of fuel and general supply.
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Old 07-09-2009, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker
That battle took place during the initial NATO drive eastward just before the nukes were first used.
It wasn't until a little later that the engineers placed the nuclear demolition charge flattening what little was left standing after the seige.
It said in the Black Madonna rumours list that several nuclear demolition charges had been set in Czestochowa but one failed to detonate. In my campaign that undetonated charge made its way into Major Filipowicz's hoard under the Jazna Gora and was eventually used by Major Po and his band of merry sociopaths to nuke WarPac Reserve Front HQ in Lublin in November of 2000.
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Old 07-09-2009, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
1998
In late June, the Pact forces in southern Germany renewed their offensive in an attempt to seize the scattered surviving industrial sites in central Germany. Actually, the most intact parts of Germany were those areas in the south which had been under Warsaw Pact occupation, as neither side was willing to strike the area heavily. Galvanized into renewed action, NATO forces made a maximum effort to reform a coherent front, and the Pact offensive finally stalled along a line from Frankfurt to Fulda. In late August, NATO launched its own offensive from the area of Karl Marx Stadt, driving south to penetrate the Pact rear areas in Czechoslovakia. The thinly-spread Czech border guard units were quickly overwhelmed and Pact forces in central Germany began a precipitous withdrawal to Czechoslovakia, laying waste to southern Germany as they retreated.
This would go a long way to eating up the last reserves of fuel and resources available to both sides and add to the reasons why 1999 was so quiet.
Compared to the previous year, the distances involved were negligable - in 1996-97 the war raged across almost all of Europe. In 1998, offensives stalled after moving just a stones throw or two... (in comparison).
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Old 07-09-2009, 12:40 AM
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Depending on when we see new stuff from the DC group, I might map out several canon paragraphs which describe unit movements (similar to the ones above). I plan to do something similar with the DC groups final data and it might be a useful test run. Of course the lack of complete data will make them pretty generic.

I'll look over the "Death of a Division" handout and see what I can do with that as it has really nice details.
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