The 40th Infantry Division

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Raellus

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you on these points. I don't know for sure, but I think the pro-Littlefield folks are proposing that his collection could be useful against Mexican follow-on troops, after the upper-echelon, mechanized spearheads have been substantially weakened, towards the end of their long drive into NorCal, not during the initial breakthrough battles. That, to me, seems entirely feasible/reasonable.

The situation in 2001 favors the Mexican Government and Armed Forces.

Their fighting on one broad front with no one, but allies, behind them. They should still be able to land raids with their Marines up and down the U.S. west coast further tying up U.S. forces and preventing those from grouping in real strength.

The Mexican people are a part of the U.S. population. Those people live and work at all levels of society, not just as peons for whites the like cheap illegal labor. That is a huge human intelligence gathering network all reporting on U.S. Forces movement, strength, and supply. What would the Maquis be in spanish?

The Mexicans have obsolete equipment, yes. The huge difference is that they train on this gear and have a supply chain for it. A badly damaged M3A1 can be trucked back to Mexico on a lowboy and repaired. By this time the M8 Greyhounds have 20MMs, and everything has diesel engines and modern radios.

The Mexican shouldn't even be starving. They have the water from controlling the Colorado and American rivers. Though they do need to do something about no imports of wheat or corn from the U.S. There is more money in growing food than drugs so that is a problem that takes care of itself.

Mexians have fuel from their own fields and supply from friends like Guatemala and Venezuela.

The U.S. Monroe doctrine has rightfully made for anger and mistrust from the Latin American countries. Would they reinforce Mexico with the M3s, M4s, and M8s given to them? I don't know.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The situation in 2001 favors the Mexican Government and Armed Forces.

Their fighting on one broad front with no one, but allies, behind them. They should still be able to land raids with their Marines up and down the U.S. west coast further tying up U.S. forces and preventing those from grouping in real strength.

The Mexican people are a part of the U.S. population. Those people live and work at all levels of society, not just as peons for whites the like cheap illegal labor. That is a huge human intelligence gathering network all reporting on U.S. Forces movement, strength, and supply. What would the Maquis be in spanish?

The Mexicans have obsolete equipment, yes. The huge difference is that they train on this gear and have a supply chain for it. A badly damaged M3A1 can be trucked back to Mexico on a lowboy and repaired. By this time the M8 Greyhounds have 20MMs, and everything has diesel engines and modern radios.

The Mexican shouldn't even be starving. They have the water from controlling the Colorado and American rivers. Though they do need to do something about no imports of wheat or corn from the U.S. There is more money in growing food than drugs so that is a problem that takes care of itself.

Mexians have fuel from their own fields and supply from friends like Guatemala and Venezuela.

The U.S. Monroe doctrine has rightfully made for anger and mistrust from the Latin American countries. Would they reinforce Mexico with the M3s, M4s, and M8s given to them? I don't know.

I agree with you on nearly all points. However, I think you should consider the impact of U.S. partisans operating behind Mexican lines. Americans have lots of guns. They know the land. Also, loyal Mexican-Americans can gather intel for said partisan forces.

Also, long supply lines are vulnerable. The U.S. forces would have interior lines (i.e. much shorter/local supply) whereas the Mexican supply lines would often stretch for hundreds of miles through hostile (see point 1) territory.

Lastly, after a year of heavy combat, Mexican AFV stocks would be considerably depleted and, in the v1.0 timeline at least, Mexico didn't have the capacity to produce large numbers of their own.

To sum up, yes, in a T2K scenario, the Mexican army would have a number of advantages over the U.S. forces, but they'd also have to contend with some significant disadvantages (long supply lines and partisan activity), in addition to normal combat attrition (which both sides would be dealing with).

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I agree with you on nearly all points. However, I think you should consider the impact of U.S. partisans operating behind Mexican lines. Americans have lots of guns. They know the land. Also, loyal Mexican-Americans can gather intel for said partisan forces.

I wonder though. The areas the Mexican Armed Forces has penetrated and holds terrain is highly populated by Mexican descendants. Well, might be the whites vs latino militias are canceling each other out. Further, Mexico doesn't have to worry about partisans in Mexico city or elsewhere versus the U.S. Cities with Mexican born residents disrupting power, killing politicians, cutting rail lines, reporting troop movements, etc.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Also, long supply lines are vulnerable. The U.S. forces would have interior lines (i.e. much shorter/local supply) whereas the Mexican supply lines would often stretch for hundreds of miles through hostile (see point 1) territory.

I would argue the opposite. Bakersfield and Los Angeles are closer to Mexico than Camp Rialeah, Umatilla Sierra Army Depot. San Diego is over run, as is Ft Irwin, Ft Ord, Vanderberg AFB, Twenty Nine Palms, and the Naval Air Stations in Sand Diego and the U.S. Navy at Long Beach.

Cutting off the power and water to lower California favors the invader who is able to bring those forward from home and not the defender who has to sit there without giving up terrain.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Lastly, after a year of heavy combat, Mexican AFV stocks would be considerably depleted and, in the v1.0 timeline at least, Mexico didn't have the capacity to produce large numbers of their own.

Wouldn't they just buy more of the WW2 equipment that they do make parts and munitions for from other Latin American countries? RPGs from Cuba? The state of the Mexican infrastructure is in pretty good shape versus the U.S. What was really attacked and destroyed to a state where it cannot be rebuilt within a year or two years? Moreover, any attacks really motivates the Mexican government to further decentralize assets.

Mexico does produce AFVs though..... Diesel Nacional -1 . Then DN II, DN III, DN IV. What would they be able to ramp up to in war, I don't know. I don't know what their rate of production is now.

We do know (or infer) that they have production and depot facilities for the forxes. The M4s were re-engined with 8v 92t motors, the M3A1s have new suspensions and paint. The M8 Greyhounds have been re-armed with 20x139mm or 14.5 bloc. The M8 HMC has been kept in servie with new paint and traxks or the turrets moved to DN Vs (bufalo). This doesn't inxlude souring more from their Latin allies that were also gifted equipment from the U.S. In 1947.

Originally Posted by Raellus

To sum up, yes, in a T2K scenario, the Mexican army would have a number of advantages over the U.S. forces, but they'd also have to contend with some significant disadvantages (long supply lines and partisan activity), in addition to normal combat attrition (which both sides would be dealing with).

Agreed, in part. I just think the Mexicans are in a better position to make up those losses and support their forces forward versus the U.S. Position.

[Olefin]

ArmySgt if you are not using canon then you are doing an apples versus oranges argument - we have been using canon and writing the Littlefield Collection into it

a) San Francisco was not nuked - Howling Wilderness specifically mentions the city government is still around and active well into late 2001

b) CA nuke sites - canonical

El Segundo, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.75 Mt).
Richmond, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (one 1.5 Mt).
Carson, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.75 Kt).
Avon, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Torrance, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Wilmington, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.25 Mt).
Benicia, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Martinez, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Vandenberg AFB, CA: Recon Satellite Launch Facilities (1 Mt,
ground burst).
March AFB, CA: 15th Air Force Headquarters (1 Mt).

c) there is no power being generated south of Bakersfield or water being sent as well - and MilGov could easily cut the last water source to LA - its gravity fed - you blow it and no water to LA - and there is NO WAY IN HELL (emphasis mine) that the Mexicans are trucking enough water from the only water source they would have - which is the All American Canal near the Imperial Valley - all the way to just south of Bakersfield

d) I have read the description of CA in Howling Wilderness and frankly the description of California contradicts itself about ten times - it makes it sounds like almost no food gets grown then says they grow about 50 percent of normal food levels - well sorry but if the state is growing that much food after LA got massively depopulated then there is NO STARVATION in the state - so for CA I definitely ignore HW

e) The AFV's you mentioned were all produced in the early to mid-80's - Mexico made a conscious decision to stop making their own because their production rates sucked and the vehicles were garbage - and thats quoting Mexican sources by the way


The first attempts to update Mexico’s forces began in the 1979 when a decision was made to restart armored vehicle production in Mexico, which had moribund since the delivery of forty HWK-11 tracked APC’s in the 1960’s. The first product of this effort was the SEDENA 1000 armored recon vehicles which were based on the Dodge 4x4 truck. They were lightly armored and armed only with a 7.62mm MG3 machine gun.

The SEDENA 1000 paved the way for the first actual production vehicle, the DN-IV Caballo 4x4 wheeled APC, production of which started in 1983. They were an indigenous Mexican design similar to the V-150 but with a better suspension and bigger tires made for the rougher terrain of Mexico. It was armed with a SAMM-Morelos one-man turret equipped with a M2HB 50 caliber machine gun and a 7.62mm MG3 machine gun and was capable of carrying six troops and a crew of three.

In 1984 the DN-V Toro was introduced as an armored recon vehicle to complement the DN-IV. It was a 4x4 like the DN-IV and was fitted with the FVT 900 series one-man turret with a 20mm GIAT M621 cannon and a coaxial 7.62mm MG3 machine gun. While much better than the SEDENA 1000 it was still considered an inferior product compared to what was available from other countries.

Total production - 50 each of the DN-IV and V, about 24 of the Sedena 1000 - and in the 1960's they made a small number of APC's as well - 40 HWK-11 - and thats it

f) the Latino population of CA was around 9 million in 1997 - but it was not all Mexican - around 35-40% was Central American from countries that definitely would NOT BE HAPPY that Mexico had invaded and taken over parts of CA - especially those from Guatemala and Honduras - thus they would have taken over a big population who didnt like them very much

g) they could get RPG's from Cuba but they couldnt get more MILAN missiles - and most of the invasion routes eventually got into country where you arent going to nail an M1 with an RPG - not out around Palmdale or Edwards or the Arizona desert or western TX - and most of the countries that have equipment wouldnt be selling it to Mexico - Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador have got Nicaragua to worry about if its V1 - and once they cross the border any factory producing military hardware is going to get taken out by the US

[Olefin]

and the attacks on LA alone kill off a lot of LA's Latino population - three nukes on oil centers which kill 752,000 people, wound seriously 2.75 million people and the firestorms burn the entire barrio area to the ground - meaning that of those nine million Latinos in CA you just killed or seriously wounded probably 4 million of them - so much for all the help the Mexican invasion is going to get

brought to you by https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

[Olefin]

"Then you contradict yourself... Is San Francisco there or not? When I state and demonstrate all of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force bases surrounding there and should have been nuked into extinction; you tell me SF is there, that it canon.

One or the other. Either SF is a dead husk unable to support the people or it is all sunshine and rainbows.

Any reasonable person would state..... SF is dead for all intents and purposes. The Federal buildings like the Federal Reserve gold vault there warrant megaton range nukes. If nuked there is no emergeny services that would be able to do little more than medial without electricity to run the pumps for water to hydrants.

How is it then that the J. Littlefield and company have power, food, water, safety, and 100% of the staff with no asualties in 2000? When people are starving to death or dying from preventable diseases.
How"

SF is alive not a dead husk - but the authority of the state only is in force where there are cops and MilGov forces that are still answering the state - meaning anywhere south of Bakersfield, north of San Francisco no one gives a damn about the law

as for how his guys are alive and healthy - no nukes nearby, lot of armored vehicles and weapons - as for power - he had a lot of diesel fuel on the property - and a machine shop like his would be able to turn out things like windmills to generate power for instance - and considering its CA I bet good money he had solar panels too

keep in mind - per canon - about 60-70% of the 40th basically told MilGov to go screw and disobeyed orders in late 2000 and refused to move as ordered and kept their tanks and guns - and for that huge act of mutiny the remaining government - did absolutely nothing - sounds like to me that no one cares too much about what the law is anymore

[Olefin]

Now if you dont follow canon and want to play your own game and own timeline then none of what I just posted matters - but if you are following at least some of the canon that is what you have to deal with - especially if you are like me and Raellus and want to write more canon material for the game - but if you are just playing your own campaign you can ignore as much of that as you like

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

ArmySgt if you are not using canon then you are doing an apples versus oranges argument - we have been using canon and writing the Littlefield Collection into it

You use canon when it suits you and you don't when you don't like it. The Howling Wilderness thread alone confirms that. What is the point if only one side does an apples to apples comparison? Why hold others to a standard you admit to not following yourself, in re Howling Wilderness?

Let alone the logical inconsistency of nuking two Air Force bases (one only launches satellites) several oil refineries then ignores completely the Pacific fleet bases and ship yards in San Francisco and San Diego.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

You use canon when it suits you and you don't when you don't like it. The Howling Wilderness thread alone confirms that. What is the point if only one side does an apples to apples comparison? Why hold others to a standard you admit to not following yourself, in re Howling Wilderness?

Let alone the logical inconsistency of nuking two Air Force bases (one only launches satellites) several oil refineries then ignores completely the Pacific fleet bases and ship yards in San Francisco and San Diego.

Hey if you dont like the nuke pattern go tell that to Marc Miller and Frank Frey and Frank Chadwick - they are still around on facebook - and I dont like HW because frankly the weather idea is non-nonsensical and if you follow what it says about how little food is left you are looking at the total destruction of the US for about 200 years or so given what little would be left of the population - doesnt take a math genius to say that if the population is already down by 50 percent and there is only enough food for a quarter of them that means you have 12.5 percent of the US population left - and that doesnt factor in disease, fighting for the remaining food, areas under foreign occupation, etc.

sorry but given that kind of holocaust there is no way that less than two hundreds years later the US is not only back together but back in space and going faster than light

and as I pointed out his own description of CA contradicted itself - but that doesnt change the nuke attack history or the Mexican invasion - both of which are separate from his state by state description of what he says will happen after April 2001

but since GDW never released another canon US module after April 2001 date I pretty much ignore anything past that date - but the I dont ignore the nuke attacks or the events from June 2000 to April 2001 or the Mexican invasion and its effects - that is canon and I go by that to the letter - I have to - I am writing for the canon after all now - and one of the things I am working on is what happens in California starting in May of 2001 - and it includes Littlefield

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Hey if you dont like the nuke pattern go tell that to Marc Miller and Frank Frey and Frank Chadwick - they are still around on facebook - and I dont like HW because frankly the weather idea is non-nonsensical and if you follow what it says about how little food is left you are looking at the total destruction of the US for about 200 years or so given what little would be left of the population - doesnt take a math genius to say that if the population is already down by 50 percent and there is only enough food for a quarter of them that means you have 12.5 percent of the US population left - and that doesnt factor in disease, fighting for the remaining food, areas under foreign occupation, etc.

This isn't realistic given the world situation in 2000? The areas of the U.S. That produce food or the energy to make food are occupied, nuked, or under fallout. The Mid west and California for major food exporters and Texas for energy. There isn't fuel for tractors if there was anyone left there with the knowledge to operate them. Even in the 90s we had idiots that did not know the food in grocery stores came from farms. There isn't power to run the canneries even if there was food to put into cans. Everyone is making do locally with what they make locally as productions, and transportation is deeply curtailed. It takes hundreds of gallons of fuel to grow xrops and harvest them, let alone that our system of farming takes huge amounts of ammonium nitrate from the petroleum industry. No refineries, then no ANFO and the harvest yields drop off signifiantly. Assuming that the required monoxulture hybrid seeds are available at all, those suffer the same penalties as a farmer growing food or feed.

Originally Posted by Olefin

sorry but given that kind of holocaust there is no way that less than two hundreds years later the US is not only back together but back in space and going faster than light

2300 doesn't match up with T2K enough to really say one follows the other as canon.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and as I pointed out his own description of CA contradicted itself - but that doesnt change the nuke attack history or the Mexican invasion - both of which are separate from his state by state description of what he says will happen after April 2001

I have said that I give the writers their due in what they wrote AT THE TIME. We take for granted the information that we have available for us today.

That doesn't prelude one from adding strikes that a competent Soviet command would have done.

Looking at Vandenberg or March any system used to nuke those had to pass over more important targets. So there isn't any reasoning for them being something land based or sub launched could not target. The strikes on refineries demonstrates a willingness to kill civilians by the truck load. Vandenberg is mostly NASA and March had KC-10As in the 90s. Neither of those justifies using a nuke there and leaving a naval shipyard with a dry dock able to support repairs up to nuclear carriers. Nuking Vandenberg? So what! The gantries, radar, communications are so spread out that without using 10 or 20 warheads the place can be rebuilt in a year after the fallout has decayed.

Originally Posted by Olefin

but since GDW never released another canon US module after April 2001 date I pretty much ignore anything past that date - but the I dont ignore the nuke attacks or the events from June 2000 to April 2001 or the Mexican invasion and its effects - that is canon and I go by that to the letter - I have to - I am writing for the canon after all now - and one of the things I am working on is what happens in California starting in May of 2001 - and it includes Littlefield

Be prepared for all the material in Challenger that is endorsed by GDW.

There is to much what if, and might have been to take the Littlefield collection seriously, What can a veteran tell a model maker though?

[swaghauler]

As some of you already know, my backround is completely different (even for the V2.2 timeline) with Division Cuba coming from Russia explicitly to help the Mexican government (which is now a narco-puppet state). This gives Mexico modernized T55Ms with reactive armor, the Shorta systems dischargers (12 total), thermal imaging, laser rangers, and the computerized Volna fire control. They were supported by Division Cuba's Modernized (and equally well-equipped) T72Ms.
The 40th reequipped from surplus stocks of Marine tanks. At this time in history, the Marines had switched to using the M1 and there were a few hundred M60A3s with thermal imaging and reactive armor sitting in the depots as a result. These are what the remaining National Guard units (whose crews and M1 tanks were used to replace battlefield losses) and newly forming divisions are drawing out. In addition, Cadillac Gauge had an order placed by the Royal Thai Army in 1997 for 85 Stingrays. So in 1998, Texas seizes around 100 Stingrays that were set for export either to fulfill the Royal Thai Army's order or as "technology demonstrators" to various governments.
This is how I explain the Second US-Mexican War. The T55Ms and T72Ms are an equal match for the older US equipment that they faced essentially resulting in a case of "mutually assured destruction" (just like in Europe).

One other thing I'd like to address is the debate on ammo as a "destructive device." As you guys know, I have some knowledge here, especially since I began participating in D-Day Conneaut with their tank battle and all the Artillery that shows up. EACH ROUND of ammo in a casing larger than .50 (there are different rules for black powder rounds) is indeed a "destructive device" and subject to FORM 1 BATF rules (this was a BIG pain in the ass for owners of 12 gauge Streetsweeper shotguns when "Clinton" declared them "Destructive Devices" just before the 94 Assault Weapons Ban). While the $200 Tax Stamp is not that big a deal, the FILING is (or rather WAS). You must have WRITTEN acknowledgment from local LE of the request and then submit it to the BATF. During the 90's there were also limits on the number of Form 1 filings a single person/legal entity could make at once. The time to get a Form 1 approval hovered around ONE YEAR from start to finish. This is what would limit ammo count.
Both Explosive ammo AND Armor Piercing ammo was FORBIDDEN without the express written consent of the BATF. This was only given to manufacturers or testing facilities in the case of Large Caliber "Destructive Devices." Also, please note that a destructive device was a round of ammo OR ANY COMPONENT THAT COULD BE USED TO MAKE ONE! Because of these rules, most owners of "destructive devices" using a cartridge only had a few. I would think that 2D6 Shells would be appropriate after the Exchange. Also, note that "Armor Piercing" is strangely defined by the BAFT. It is based on construction MATERIAL and includes Tungsten, DU, and very hard (AR600+) Tool Steels. Thus, older hardened steel rounds that were "AP" back in WW2 may NOT QUALIFY today.

Making Ammo:

As you guys know, I'm a "Weapon's Enthusiast" in every sense of the word. "ball" and "canister" rounds are easy to make and AP rounds can be machined from tool steel or tungsten (if you can find either after The Exchange).

High Explosive Rounds:

HE is much trickier. Making Comp-B, ANFO, or Plastique isn't hard for anyone with a Chemistry Degree, The Anarchist's Cookbook, or the US Army's Improvised Munitions Handbook, but you will need a DEMO KIT (with DETONATORS) for a PROPER LCG Round. Unless you are going with ANFO and a Fuse Cord (the type of fuse that burns and is often seen sticking out of Dynamite in most movies) that you light just before firing, you are going to need either a Pressure Detonator or a Primer Detonator (most commonly equipped with a "pull ring") to detonate the above Comp-B or Plastique. They will NOT detonate if set on fire. Pressure detonators can be salvaged from Land Mines but this opens up ANOTHER "can of worms" (and hopefully ONLY in the "figurative" sense).

HEAT Rounds:

The quickest way to make a HEAT round is to get one of those big (and cool) Copper funnels like they use in Breweries and Wineries. I personally would only use a pressure detonator with this round. One way to make the detonator less sensitive is to put a waxed cotton wad (which will soften under the heat of firing) between the detonator's trigger and pad before removing the safety screw. This would greatly increase the pressure needed to detonate it. I would then make an "Investment Casting using Mild Steel with the Copper funnel (properly plugged with wax to keep the "negative space" inside it) forming the nose and body front. For those who don't know, Investment Casting (also known as the lost wax process) requires you to build a mold taking into account the general shape and any "negative (ie open) Space" the cast object needs. I would Slightly recess the tip of the funnel inside the nose of the projectile to protect the installed pressure detonator with a nub of mild steel. This nub will deform and allow the detonator to properly impact against the target's surface for detonation (and formation of the molten jet). Once the Casting is cool, you polish it with either a grinder (this guy had better be a Master grinder) or using a Lathe (for a precision polish). I would then fill the copper funnel's negative space with Comp-B and install the detonator. Now you have a HEAT round for the Apocalypse. Of course, it is a MUCH more detailed procedure but I'm not comfortable going into details on an open forum.

The Primer Detonator:

This is a mechanical detonator often detonated by a pull ring which ignites a pyrotechnic delay fuse to the actual detonator. You must drill a hole through the BACK of the round and insert this detonator through the back with additional pyrotechnic fuse pushed into it PAST the pull ring. The fuse is ignited by the powder in the round igniting and burns for a fixed period before the detonation of the explosive. You had better have your range right. You'll also have to insert a steel "plug" into the round's nose to help build "explosive pressure" so the superheated jet can form. I'd weld it in.

The poor man's "fuse;"

You just drill a hole in the base of the round and use a wire to insert a lightable fuse cord with a SPECIFIC BURN RATE. This requires the substitution of COMP-B with either ANFO or Powdered Explosives (Cordite or Black Powder). The fuse is ignited by the shell's powder charge and WILL EXPLODE after a fixed "burn time"/"time in flight" so make sure your Ranging is accurate. Don't forget to plug the round's nose after you pour the powder in!

Finding Brass after The Exchange:

Sherman ammo (and 57mm Howitzer ammo) was often "demilled" and either whole rounds (sans explosive) or Brass Casings sold as curios. There were also many "training rounds" featuring mild steel shells, brass casings WITHOUT primer pockets, and filled with sand for proper weight that were used in "dry fire training" (aka "crew drills"). These pop up all the time and some are even converted to "destructive devices" to satisfy the demand from reenactors. The only thing stopping them from becoming actual ammo is the Legal Repercussions for doing so. After the Exchange, this will disappear. I'd rate both 75mm and 57mm Casings as RARE. You will find them in Museums, VFWs, Rotaries, Surplus Stores, and Gunshops. Both Training Rounds AND "Demilled" Casings would require some skill in either TIG welding or Machining to become functional. I'd chance a "demilled" Case (because I can TIG fairly well) but pass on Machining the Primer Pocket of a Casing (because this exceeds MY Skillset). Unfortunately not that many rounds will be available and you will use SIGNIFICANT resources to make them.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

As some of you already know, my backround is completely different (even for the V2.2 timeline) with Division Cuba coming from Russia explicitly to help the Mexican government (which is now a narco-puppet state). This gives Mexico modernized T55Ms with reactive armor, the Shorta systems dischargers (12 total), thermal imaging, laser rangers, and the computerized Volna fire control. They were supported by Division Cuba's Modernized (and equally well-equipped) T72Ms.
The 40th reequipped from surplus stocks of Marine tanks. At this time in history, the Marines had switched to using the M1 and there were a few hundred M60A3s with thermal imaging and reactive armor sitting in the depots as a result. These are what the remaining National Guard units (whose crews and M1 tanks were used to replace battlefield losses) and newly forming divisions are drawing out. In addition, Cadillac Gauge had an order placed by the Royal Thai Army in 1997 for 85 Stingrays. So in 1998, Texas seizes around 100 Stingrays that were set for export either to fulfill the Royal Thai Army's order or as "technology demonstrators" to various governments.
This is how I explain the Second US-Mexican War. The T55Ms and T72Ms are an equal match for the older US equipment that they faced essentially resulting in a case of "mutually assured destruction" (just like in Europe).

One other thing I'd like to address is the debate on ammo as a "destructive device." As you guys know, I have some knowledge here, especially since I began participating in D-Day Conneaut with their tank battle and all the Artillery that shows up. EACH ROUND of ammo in a casing larger than .50 (there are different rules for black powder rounds) is indeed a "destructive device" and subject to FORM 1 BATF rules (this was a BIG pain in the ass for owners of 12 gauge Streetsweeper shotguns when "Clinton" declared them "Destructive Devices" just before the 94 Assault Weapons Ban). While the $200 Tax Stamp is not that big a deal, the FILING is (or rather WAS). You must have WRITTEN acknowledgment from local LE of the request and then submit it to the BATF. During the 90's there were also limits on the number of Form 1 filings a single person/legal entity could make at once. The time to get a Form 1 approval hovered around ONE YEAR from start to finish. This is what would limit ammo count.
Both Explosive ammo AND Armor Piercing ammo was FORBIDDEN without the express written consent of the BATF. This was only given to manufacturers or testing facilities in the case of Large Caliber "Destructive Devices." Also, please note that a destructive device was a round of ammo OR ANY COMPONENT THAT COULD BE USED TO MAKE ONE! Because of these rules, most owners of "destructive devices" using a cartridge only had a few. I would think that 2D6 Shells would be appropriate after the Exchange. Also, note that "Armor Piercing" is strangely defined by the BAFT. It is based on construction MATERIAL and includes Tungsten, DU, and very hard (AR600+) Tool Steels. Thus, older hardened steel rounds that were "AP" back in WW2 may NOT QUALIFY today.

Making Ammo:

As you guys know, I'm a "Weapon's Enthusiast" in every sense of the word. "ball" and "canister" rounds are easy to make and AP rounds can be machined from tool steel or tungsten (if you can find either after The Exchange).

High Explosive Rounds:

HE is much trickier. Making Comp-B, ANFO, or Plastique isn't hard for anyone with a Chemistry Degree, The Anarchist's Cookbook, or the US Army's Improvised Munitions Handbook, but you will need a DEMO KIT (with DETONATORS) for a PROPER LCG Round. Unless you are going with ANFO and a Fuse Cord (the type of fuse that burns and is often seen sticking out of Dynamite in most movies) that you light just before firing, you are going to need either a Pressure Detonator or a Primer Detonator (most commonly equipped with a "pull ring") to detonate the above Comp-B or Plastique. They will NOT detonate if set on fire. Pressure detonators can be salvaged from Land Mines but this opens up ANOTHER "can of worms" (and hopefully ONLY in the "figurative" sense).

HEAT Rounds:

The quickest way to make a HEAT round is to get one of those big (and cool) Copper funnels like they use in Breweries and Wineries. I personally would only use a pressure detonator with this round. One way to make the detonator less sensitive is to put a waxed cotton wad (which will soften under the heat of firing) between the detonator's trigger and pad before removing the safety screw. This would greatly increase the pressure needed to detonate it. I would then make an "Investment Casting using Mild Steel with the Copper funnel (properly plugged with wax to keep the "negative space" inside it) forming the nose and body front. For those who don't know, Investment Casting (also known as the lost wax process) requires you to build a mold taking into account the general shape and any "negative (ie open) Space" the cast object needs. I would Slightly recess the tip of the funnel inside the nose of the projectile to protect the installed pressure detonator with a nub of mild steel. This nub will deform and allow the detonator to properly impact against the target's surface for detonation (and formation of the molten jet). Once the Casting is cool, you polish it with either a grinder (this guy had better be a Master grinder) or using a Lathe (for a precision polish). I would then fill the copper funnel's negative space with Comp-B and install the detonator. Now you have a HEAT round for the Apocalypse. Of course, it is a MUCH more detailed procedure but I'm not comfortable going into details on an open forum.

The Primer Detonator:

This is a mechanical detonator often detonated by a pull ring which ignites a pyrotechnic delay fuse to the actual detonator. You must drill a hole through the BACK of the round and insert this detonator through the back with additional pyrotechnic fuse pushed into it PAST the pull ring. The fuse is ignited by the powder in the round igniting and burns for a fixed period before the detonation of the explosive. You had better have your range right. You'll also have to insert a steel "plug" into the round's nose to help build "explosive pressure" so the superheated jet can form. I'd weld it in.

The poor man's "fuse;"

You just drill a hole in the base of the round and use a wire to insert a lightable fuse cord with a SPECIFIC BURN RATE. This requires the substitution of COMP-B with either ANFO or Powdered Explosives (Cordite or Black Powder). The fuse is ignited by the shell's powder charge and WILL EXPLODE after a fixed "burn time"/"time in flight" so make sure your Ranging is accurate. Don't forget to plug the round's nose after you pour the powder in!

Finding Brass after The Exchange:

Sherman ammo (and 57mm Howitzer ammo) was often "demilled" and either whole rounds (sans explosive) or Brass Casings sold as curios. There were also many "training rounds" featuring mild steel shells, brass casings WITHOUT primer pockets, and filled with sand for proper weight that were used in "dry fire training" (aka "crew drills"). These pop up all the time and some are even converted to "destructive devices" to satisfy the demand from reenactors. The only thing stopping them from becoming actual ammo is the Legal Repercussions for doing so. After the Exchange, this will disappear. I'd rate both 75mm and 57mm Casings as RARE. You will find them in Museums, VFWs, Rotaries, Surplus Stores, and Gunshops. Both Training Rounds AND "Demilled" Casings would require some skill in either TIG welding or Machining to become functional. I'd chance a "demilled" Case (because I can TIG fairly well) but pass on Machining the Primer Pocket of a Casing (because this exceeds MY Skillset). Unfortunately not that many rounds will be available and you will use SIGNIFICANT resources to make them.

Ok why do I love this forum - this post right here is why I love this forum - where else do you find all this kind of fascinating detail presented so well?

Well done Sir!

FYI - Littlefield had a literal ton of the the demilled shells/practice rounds/etc. that Swaghauler just described above and the machinists and know how on how to make them into live shells

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Olefin

FYI - Littlefield had a literal ton of the the demilled shells/practice rounds/etc. that Swaghauler just described above and the machinists and know how on how to make them into live shells

Do you have a source for that information? While I quite happily agree with you that if anyone would probably have a group of people with those skills, it would be Littlefield and his compatriots at his museum but I'd still like to read the source myself before accepting it as fact.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by Olefin

ArmySgt if you are not using canon then you are doing an apples versus oranges argument - we have been using canon and writing the Littlefield Collection into it

a) San Francisco was not nuked - Howling Wilderness specifically mentions the city government is still around and active well into late 2001

b) CA nuke sites - canonical

El Segundo, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.75 Mt).
Richmond, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (one 1.5 Mt).
Carson, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.75 Kt).
Avon, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Torrance, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Wilmington, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.25 Mt).
Benicia, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Martinez, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Vandenberg AFB, CA: Recon Satellite Launch Facilities (1 Mt,
ground burst).
March AFB, CA: 15th Air Force Headquarters (1 Mt).

The bolded nuke sites are all within 30 miles of San Francisco (and Richmond is less than 15 miles away). Most of San Francisco would suffer light damage from the Richmond blast (even if it was multiple smaller blasts, the damage would likely reach to the Mission District). It may not have been directly hit, but it would have repercussions both directly from the blast and indirectly from refugees. The main power plant in the city is within the damage zone.

However, the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation wasn't actually in San Francisco. It was in Portola Valley, about 40 miles south. It was, in fact, very close to the spot on the v2.2 map marked "Wilmington" (which appears to be misplaced and appears to be somewhere in the vicinity of Cupertino). If we accept the list over the map, the MVTF should be OK, since it's far enough south to avoid the San Francisco blasts. However, if the map is correct and the Wilmington strike deviated, the MVTF was likely damaged and without clear road connections to anywhere but San Francisco, since a blast near Cupertino would have a 5 psi overpressure cover from the mountains to the bay.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by The Dark

However, the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation wasn't actually in San Francisco. It was in Portola Valley, about 40 miles south. It was, in fact, very close to the spot on the v2.2 map marked "Wilmington" (which appears to be misplaced and appears to be somewhere in the vicinity of Cupertino). If we accept the list over the map, the MVTF should be OK, since it's far enough south to avoid the San Francisco blasts. However, if the map is correct and the Wilmington strike deviated, the MVTF was likely damaged and without clear road connections to anywhere but San Francisco, since a blast near Cupertino would have a 5 psi overpressure cover from the mountains to the bay.

Only 22 miles or 35 kilometers from the U.S. Navy shipyard at Hunters Point.

BRAC shut that down in 1994

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Fr...Naval_Shipyard

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by The Dark

The bolded nuke sites are all within 30 miles of San Francisco (and Richmond is less than 15 miles away). Most of San Francisco would suffer light damage from the Richmond blast (even if it was multiple smaller blasts, the damage would likely reach to the Mission District). It may not have been directly hit, but it would have repercussions both directly from the blast and indirectly from refugees. The main power plant in the city is within the damage zone.

However, the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation wasn't actually in San Francisco. It was in Portola Valley, about 40 miles south. It was, in fact, very close to the spot on the v2.2 map marked "Wilmington" (which appears to be misplaced and appears to be somewhere in the vicinity of Cupertino). If we accept the list over the map, the MVTF should be OK, since it's far enough south to avoid the San Francisco blasts. However, if the map is correct and the Wilmington strike deviated, the MVTF was likely damaged and without clear road connections to anywhere but San Francisco, since a blast near Cupertino would have a 5 psi overpressure cover from the mountains to the bay.

Wilmington is in the Los Angeles area not San Francisco

[Olefin]

You might want to check your actual map coordinates guys

Wilmington CA is not anywhere near Portola Valley - not even close

Wilmington is a neighborhood in the Los Angeles Harbor Region area of Los Angeles, California, covering 9.14 square miles.

Featuring a heavy concentration of industry and the third-largest oil field in the United States, it is considered sparsely populated in comparison with the city as a whole and within the city it is distinguished by its youthful population and high percentage of Latino and foreign-born residents.

It is the site of Los Angeles Harbor College, Banning High School and ten other primary and secondary schools. Wilmington has six parks, including one on the waterfront.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Wilmington is in the Los Angeles area not San Francisco

Yes, I did say it appears to be misplaced. Now, which takes precedence in canon, the list of targets or the map of where nukes hit? That was the entire point of my post, which you completely glossed over. The pedantic description of Wilmington is completely irrelevant if the nuke missed.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

I wonder though. The areas the Mexican Armed Forces has penetrated and holds terrain is highly populated by Mexican descendants. Well, might be the whites vs latino militias are canceling each other out. Further, Mexico doesn't have to worry about partisans in Mexico city or elsewhere versus the U.S. Cities with Mexican born residents disrupting power, killing politicians, cutting rail lines, reporting troop movements, etc.

I've lived in Tucson for 25 years. By and large, the rather sizeable Latino community here would, in a T2K scenario, fight for the U.S.A., if they were to fight at all. I reckon that's true in most of the American Southwest. I don't think a simple binary white v. latino militia viewpoint is fair or accurate. That kind of thinking, in 1942, led to Japanese internment.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Agreed, in part. I just think the Mexicans are in a better position to make up those losses and support their forces forward versus the U.S. Position.

Agreed. I've always been an apologist for the Mexican invasion. I think it could have worked and been as successful as described in the T2K materials, with or without beefing up MA armored forces.