Equipping the Project

[Project_Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Armored SUV's are generally designed for minimal off-roading and/or minimal protection - they use SUV's because they can haul the armor, but that seriously degrades their off-road performance. And even modern armored cars (Brinks, for example) can only handle a small amount of small arms fire before they are compromised, but TMP can't expect to outrun their enemies nor rely on backup in any short time frame. Assuming the 5-year plan, the Project is looking at a war-torn environment with gangs, militia groups, mini-empires, and the remains of invading forces, all of which will have easy access to substantial small arms and probably some access to heavy weapons and vehicles.

The 150-year plan makes rebuilding much harder, but I think it is actually the safer scenario for the Project. 5 years in there are thousands of civilian 50-cal rifles and all those armored SUV's, most still operating and presumably many of them in unfriendly hands.


The base APC perhaps, put a 20mm or a TOW on it and that goes out the window. Seriously, it is unlikely that any vehicle suitable for MARS, Recon, or Science (possibly) is going to pass as a police vehicle.

It might be easier to buy or build a whole stack of turrets 20mm cannons and ATGMs, then buy the vehicles to go with them separately. Once militaries get a chance to buy some shiny new toys they usually can't dump their old ones fast enough. Even if sold for a pittance with little oversight its cheapier than storing them and maintaining them.

Thousands of Hueys and even Chinooks get sold as commercial helicopters and police forces across the US are taking delivery these days of Afghanistan heavy APCs and MRAAPs. Putting on a moderate sized turret isn't that much of a chore.

nb even an airforce becomes an option with Hawk Jets being popular with civil jet flying experience days out.

And as for the Huey Cobra, a bunch got handed over to the US forestry service for fire fighting.

If the project doesn't mind being about a decade behind the times they could be surprisingly well equipped.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2010/06/27/...ra-helicopter/

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

It might be easier to buy or build a whole stack of turrets 20mm cannons and ATGMs, then buy the vehicles to go with them separately. Once militaries get a chance to buy some shiny new toys they usually can't dump their old ones fast enough. Even if sold for a pittance with little oversight its cheapier than storing them and maintaining them.

It is a fair point that turrets could be added - it certainly should not be as big a retrofit as adding a nuclear-freaking-reactor. As to buying surplus, those sales and imports are still watched very closely. Buying them is easy, buying them without exposing the Project may be quite difficult. Because when they disappear... it will be noticed.

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

Thousands of Hueys and even Chinooks get sold as commercial helicopters...

It should be noted that there are commercial versions of these helicopters, once they are derated they aren't really much different than the civilian versions so they aren't worth watching.

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

nb even an airforce becomes an option with Hawk Jets being popular with civil jet flying experience days out.

Fueling would be a nightmare, maintenance would be a pain, and the advantages would be minimal. Even the US doesn't do jets where they aren't actually necessary.

Originally Posted by Project_Sardonicus

And as for the Huey Cobra, a bunch got handed over to the US forestry service for fire fighting.

They kept almost all of them in government service, only a couple ever made it into private hands, so making more than one or two disappear would likely be difficult.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

It is a fair point that turrets could be added - it certainly should not be as big a retrofit as adding a nuclear-freaking-reactor. As to buying surplus, those sales and imports are still watched very closely. Buying them is easy, buying them without exposing the Project may be quite difficult. Because when they disappear... it will be noticed.


It should be noted that there are commercial versions of these helicopters, once they are derated they aren't really much different than the civilian versions so they aren't worth watching.


Fueling would be a nightmare, maintenance would be a pain, and the advantages would be minimal. Even the US doesn't do jets where they aren't actually necessary.


They kept almost all of them in government service, only a couple ever made it into private hands, so making more than one or two disappear would likely be difficult.

Real World fact:60 were left behind in South Vietnam, over half still in their packing crates. more were destroyed or transferred to Korea, Thailand under the federal law. Have an MP contractor placed in charge of this or taking advantage. More equipment held after the Shah was deposed, etc.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Real World fact:60 were left behind in South Vietnam, over half still in their packing crates. more were destroyed or transferred to Korea, Thailand under the federal law. Have an MP contractor placed in charge of this or taking advantage. More equipment held after the Shah was deposed, etc.

Taking advantage of that requires foreknowledge of that specific set of facts, the ability to extract them from a hostile environment filled with other people who want them, and the ability to hide the involvement of the Project from governments that will be interested in knowing what the heck happened to an army's worth of equipment.

Besides, helicopters are relatively easy, since you really can buy civilian models and uprated them to military performance. The project doesn't need gunships anyway, you can mount a lot of weapons on a Blackhawk/S-70.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Taking advantage of that requires foreknowledge of that specific set of facts, the ability to extract them from a hostile environment filled with other people who want them, and the ability to hide the involvement of the Project from governments that will be interested in knowing what the heck happened to an army's worth of equipment.

Besides, helicopters are relatively easy, since you really can buy civilian models and uprated them to military performance. The project doesn't need gunships anyway, you can mount a lot of weapons on a Blackhawk/S-70.

And the Huey can be a "Hog" for earlier eras.

[bobcat]

as far as the concerns over the power plant. remember we aren't talking about a navy design light water reactors that irradiate everyone around at the drop of a hat. we're talking about properly designed fusion reactors that fail-safe as a default.so there is no reason to be particularly paranoid about them.

as for requirements i think the project would have to take a more pragmatic approach to their requirements. ease of maintenance would have to be a primary concern with armor/reliability both sharing a backseat. vehicles would have to be capable of functioning for a significant amount of time without regular maintenance facilities which means every possible problem would have to be use-level maintenance. this actually eliminates most military vehicles from consideration. if you need cages and special equipment to top off air in a tire for example that is not a vehicle that can be maintained by a team in the middle of a post-apocalyptic wasteland with no fancy depot level maintenance.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by bobcat

as far as the concerns over the power plant. remember we aren't talking about a navy design light water reactors that irradiate everyone around at the drop of a hat. we're talking about properly designed fusion reactors that fail-safe as a default.so there is no reason to be particularly paranoid about them.

as for requirements i think the project would have to take a more pragmatic approach to their requirements. ease of maintenance would have to be a primary concern with armor/reliability both sharing a backseat. vehicles would have to be capable of functioning for a significant amount of time without regular maintenance facilities which means every possible problem would have to be use-level maintenance. this actually eliminates most military vehicles from consideration. if you need cages and special equipment to top off air in a tire for example that is not a vehicle that can be maintained by a team in the middle of a post-apocalyptic wasteland with no fancy depot level maintenance.

Facilities that change tractor trailer, older bus tires will have these cages because of the lethal split rims used on these vehicles or one can wrap a tow chain around the tire and smack it with a sledge hammer. Not the preferred method, but an expedient.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by bobcat

as far as the concerns over the power plant. remember we aren't talking about a navy design light water reactors that irradiate everyone around at the drop of a hat. we're talking about properly designed fusion reactors that fail-safe as a default.so there is no reason to be particularly paranoid about them.

Well aware, I am assuming something like a proton-boron plant, stable fuel and high energy density. No, my concern for a fusion plant has nothing to do with radioactivity and more to do with the massive energy densities that would need to be contained for the reaction to take place, and breaching that vessel could have some pretty bad effects for anyone in the area. Put a round through a gas engine, and the engine dies. Put a round through an unprotected fusion reactor and there is a good chance everyone within 50 feet dies.

Originally Posted by bobcat

as for requirements i think the project would have to take a more pragmatic approach to their requirements. ease of maintenance would have to be a primary concern with armor/reliability both sharing a backseat. vehicles would have to be capable of functioning for a significant amount of time without regular maintenance facilities which means every possible problem would have to be use-level maintenance. this actually eliminates most military vehicles from consideration. if you need cages and special equipment to top off air in a tire for example that is not a vehicle that can be maintained by a team in the middle of a post-apocalyptic wasteland with no fancy depot level maintenance.

I agree that maintenance would be a large concern, but disagree that it would be primary. The reason is simple: a maintenance failure means you lose the use of the vehicle for some amount of time, while a protection failure means you lose the vehicle and the crew permanently. The most easily maintainable vehicle in the world is useless if it cannot protect the crew from the huge number of people (compared to the size of TMP) interested in killing them and/or taking their vehicles.