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Old 09-10-2008, 04:50 AM
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Default Silencer vs. Suppressor

Raellus 07-03-2008, 03:14 PM I kind of get the difference, I think. This is my understanding. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Silencers reduce the sound of a weapon's muzzle blast to a bare minimum. The weapon's action still may make some sound, and unless, one uses subsonic ammo, there'll still be a crack when the bullet breaks the sound barrier. But, a listener would have a real heck of a time locating the firer by the sound alone. And, silencers reduce or eliminate muzzle flash, correct? True silencers are fitted on pistols or submachine guns- weapons which already produce relatively low muzzle velocity or fire relatively low-powered cartridges. Some weapons are nearly silent.


Now suppressors are basically "silencers" for larger calibre weapons, right? They reduce the firing signature but can't really eliminate it completely, right? The weapons simply produces too much gas to effectively muffle it all.


This is what I'm going on.


I've got a couple PCs in a game with silenced weapons- two with H&K .45 "SOCOMS", one with a 9mm Skorpion, and one with an M-25 rifle (basically a tricked out M-14). My guess is that the H&Ks and the Skorpion would be nearly silent while the M-25 would still be pretty noisy. I want to get this right.


And, while I'm on the topic, is that silenced shotgun in No Country for Old Men reallistic? I guess it could work if the weapon was firing solid slugs but would it work with buckshot. It sure looks like buckshot hits in the movie.

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Law0369 07-03-2008, 05:41 PM With the M25 and all oh the 7.62 Guns from america . You will only hear the action cycle. I Know this because I just attended the USMC scout sniper employment course in quantico and fired the said named weapons. at about 50 meters away you wont even hear the action cycle.

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Grimace 07-03-2008, 05:57 PM This isn't speaking from personal experience, only what I know from what I've read.


Silencers = used to silence the sound of the weapon's discharge. As you mentioned, doesn't silence the sound of the bullet breaking the sound barrier nor the sound of the action working (ejecting cartridge and chambering a new round), but it does substantially reduce the sound of the muzzle discharge.


Suppressors = used to reduce or eliminate the muzzle flash of the weapon. By default it has some ability to retard the sound of the weapon firing, but isn't specifically designed to reduce or eliminate sound...only the flash. This is useful in low light conditions or in areas where you don't want the muzzle flash to give away your position.


Perhaps someone who's actually used either type (Max...you there?) can give a "for sure" response.

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pmulcahy 07-03-2008, 07:11 PM With the M25 and all oh the 7.62 Guns from america . You will only hear the action cycle. I Know this because I just attended the USMC scout sniper employment course in quantico and fired the said named weapons. at about 50 meters away you wont even hear the action cycle.


A lot of pistols and some submachineguns (since they are to be used at shorter ranges) that are built or modified specifically for silenced use also have a bolt lock setting that prevents the action from cycling, to further quiet the weapon. When the bolt lock is on, you essentially have a bolt-action weapon, as you have to pull back the slide or charging handle before every shot.


BTW, Law -- is Q-Town still a run-down series of bars? As a dependent, the only reason we went into Q-Town was to get to the hospital on the other side...

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Law0369 07-03-2008, 08:10 PM paul hospital is gone . Its now Marforsyscom. Q-town is a large barber shop and uniform store with a few deli's mixed in. the seedy part is long gone. Out the back gate (garrisonville road). is now a major strip mall . I'm here for another 3 months going to schools. just finished foriegn weapons instructor course . Great time. called chico from the range to tease him about the weapons I was firing. The sniper school part was great got to tour where the Marine corps makes its sniper rifles and MeuSoc .45's. Quantico is nice now. It woul just piss you off if you saw it . Big new homes for all ranks and a great big PX. One of the benifits of a republican in the house everything gets rebuilt. When were you here Paul? and what did you do? Love to hear some story's please share.

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pmulcahy 07-03-2008, 10:40 PM Jeez, that was forever ago...my stepmonster got assigned there after his second tour in Vietnam (actually Thailand on that second tour) -- it was January of 73 IIRC. (That was a rough move -- I left behind a lot of good friends, including my first crush... ) We left for Kaneohe in the summer of 75. Short tour, but my stepmonster picked up Gunny and they didn't have a slot for him at that rank in Quantico. (Turned out to be a good move though -- even more good friends, first real love, discovered RPGs, and I did get to spend my entire high school years in HAWAII ).


I've been to your new giant PX, though -- I stopped there in 1990 on the way up to DC for an 82nd Airborne convention. It's frickin' HUGE! And I didn't recognize anything in Prince William County! And the old PX is now a library?

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Targan 07-03-2008, 11:59 PM I've got a couple PCs in a game with silenced weapons- two with H&K .45 "SOCOMS", one with a 9mm Skorpion, and one with an M-25 rifle (basically a tricked out M-14).Did they make Skorpians in 9mm? If so it would be Makarov ammo right, not Parabellum? I never really bothered to look up the RL stats of the Skorpian because I always thought it was kind of a poxy weapon but I thought they were .32 calibre.


I've wondered about the shotgun suppressor in No Country For Old Men too, and I agree it looked like the weapon was firing buckshot.

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pmulcahy 07-04-2008, 06:22 AM Did they make Skorpians in 9mm? If so it would be Makarov ammo right, not Parabellum? I never really bothered to look up the RL stats of the Skorpian because I always thought it was kind of a poxy weapon but I thought they were .32 calibre.


I've wondered about the shotgun suppressor in No Country For Old Men too, and I agree it looked like the weapon was firing buckshot.


They made Skorpions in .32 ACP, .380 ACP, 9mm Makarov, and 9mm Parabellum. The 9mm Parabellum versions are quite rare -- not many were made, and there waqsn't too much demand at the time. Some use was made in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union of the 9mm Makarov version, but they too are rare. The .380 ACP version is a bit more common, but not much (one of the rumored users in the 1960s and 1970s was actually the CIA!). The .32 ACP is, of course, the most common version, but the truth is that there was never widespread use of the Skorpion, even in Czechoslovakia.


A far as the shotgun suppressor -- it does exist, and you can fire buckshot through it. I have a version of the Remington 870 with a suppressor on my site, but I don't remember the name off the top of my head -- IIRC, it is definitely more of suppressor and not that effective as a silencer. Part of the suppressor is a stand-off attachment for blowing door hinges off.

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Law0369 07-04-2008, 07:57 AM Just re opened the PX again about 3 months ago. Big rebuild. I'm going to k-bay in oct to goto 3/3 as the Gunner there. family is real happy about move. going to be good time.

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Twilight2000V3 07-08-2008, 09:07 AM Hey gang,


Sorry I've been busy and try to pop my head in here once twice a month.


MY experience with Suppressors is somewhat limited.


As far as pistols and SMGs this is what I've shot:

HK USP .45 (not SOCCOM) with Gemtech

Beretta 9mm with Gemtech and an unknown brand filled with grease.

MP5SD

PDW w/gemtech

MAC-10 (unknown suppressor)

Walther MPK (unknown suppressor)


Rifles:

M4 with Gemtech

HK 53 with Gemtech and semi-subsonic ammo (lower velocity than stqandard 5.56



We did decible testing with a Beretta, PDW, and HK 53 using semi-subsonic.


Using 9mm 147 gr ball out of the pistol and SMG we were getting readings (45 deg angle from 15m away) of about 70 decibles IIRR. and the HK53 was in the low 100s or high 90s. However the suppressors where dirty (we where testing them with 500+ rounds for a reason). My impression is that the 9mms you would not hear at 40+m away. The HK53 sounded like a loud .22 and it was still very audible in full auto bursts.


The quietest by far was the SD. Using 147 gr ball single shots were nearly silent and pretty silent in burst mode.


I've never shot a supressed full sized round.


Max

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Twilight2000V3 07-08-2008, 09:21 AM Hey gang,


Sorry I've been busy and try to pop my head in here once twice a month.


MY experience with Suppressors is somewhat limited.


As far as pistols and SMGs this is what I've shot:

HK USP .45 (not SOCCOM) with Gemtech

Beretta 9mm with Gemtech and an unknown brand filled with grease.

MP5SD

PDW w/gemtech

MAC-10 (unknown suppressor)

Walther MPK (unknown suppressor)


Rifles:

M4 with Gemtech

HK 53 with Gemtech and semi-subsonic ammo (lower velocity than stqandard 5.56



We did decible testing with a Beretta, PDW, and HK 53 using semi-subsonic.


Using 9mm 147 gr ball out of the pistol and SMG we were getting readings (45 deg angle from 15m away) of about 70 decibles IIRR. and the HK53 was in the low 100s or high 90s. However the suppressors where dirty (we where testing them with 500+ rounds for a reason). My impression is that the 9mms you would not hear at 40+m away. The HK53 sounded like a loud .22 and it was still very audible in full auto bursts.


The quietest by far was the SD. Using 147 gr ball single shots were nearly silent and pretty silent in burst mode.


I've never shot a supressed full sized round.


Max

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newyorkronin 07-08-2008, 08:12 PM I once fired an MP5-SD3 at an SMG rental place in PA. http://www.classicpistol.com (VERY cool). It sounded like an old mechanical typewriter with negligible recoil. No ear protection required!


My questions about suppressors: I've read somewhere that some "cans" have to be soaked in water to absorb muzzle gases. I'm not sure why, as I imagine any liquid destabilizes the projectile's movement/spin down the barrel.


I also flipped through a SWAT magazine article about suppressed sniper rifles with sub-MOA accuracy at hundreds of yards. I always wondered to what degree do suppressors degrade accuracy.


On that same point, I always wondered how much a suppressor reduces stopping power.


Of course, the best suppressed firearm with subsonic ammo is useless if you miss the skull and hit him in the goonies and he starts screaming, "OH MY GOD! I'VE BEEN SHOT! SOMEONE SHOT ME IN THE GOONIES WITH A SUPPRESSED WEAPON! OH MY GOD! THERE'S A DUDE RUNNING AROUND OUT THERE WITH A SUPPRESSED WEAPON SHOOTING PEOPLE IN THE GOONIES! OH MY GOD! WHAT'S THIS DUDE ABOUT? WHAT KIND OF SICK SOCIETY DO WE LIVE IN WHERE DUDES WALK AROUND SHOOTING OTHER DUDES IN THE GOONIES WITH SUPPRESSED WEAPONS FOR NO GOOD REASON?!?!?!"

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pmulcahy 07-08-2008, 08:42 PM There are a lot of ways to silence a round and eliminate report and muzzle gasses. Water in the can is just one of them. Various oil-based compounds are also common, as well as mineral oil and mineral water-based compounds. The oldest method (that I know of, anyway) is for the can to simply have a bunch of "wipes" in it -- they literally grab the bullet as it goes through the silencer, until it slows to a subsonic speed. (It's also why those types of old or cheap silencers don't silence very long -- the wipes wear away quickly, usually before you can empty a single-stack pistol magazine.) Some more advanced designs use complex baffles that use the propellant gasses to slow the bullet, and these can last for thousands of rounds (and cost an arm and a leg too).


However, the liquid isn't actually in the "bore" of the silencer itself -- it's in the baffle system.


Of course, one of the best ways to silence a weapon is to start with a subsonic round -- which is why special ops likes the .45 ACP. It's a big, slow, heavy round with a lot of kinetic energy, and unless it's hotloaded, it's already subsonic.


What I've discovered from research is that, in game terms (with the caveat most of the time, of course), a silencer reduces range by 20%, reduces damage by 10-25% (unfortunately, you have to figure the raw damage dice, complete with decimals, to come up with that one), and drops penetration by one level. Fire, Fusion and Steel does have more complete rules for silenced weapons, and I've found that the results FFS gives can range from dead-on to stunningly inaccurate (as with most of the FFS equipment generation rules). They're a good place to start your fudging from, though.

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Raellus 07-08-2008, 11:43 PM Of course, the best suppressed firearm with subsonic ammo is useless if you miss the skull and hit him in the goonies and he starts screaming, "OH MY GOD! I'VE BEEN SHOT! SOMEONE SHOT ME IN THE GOONIES WITH A SUPPRESSED WEAPON! OH MY GOD! THERE'S A DUDE RUNNING AROUND OUT THERE WITH A SUPPRESSED WEAPON SHOOTING PEOPLE IN THE GOONIES! OH MY GOD! WHAT'S THIS DUDE ABOUT? WHAT KIND OF SICK SOCIETY DO WE LIVE IN WHERE DUDES WALK AROUND SHOOTING OTHER DUDES IN THE GOONIES WITH SUPPRESSED WEAPONS FOR NO GOOD REASON?!?!?!"


LOL!


What a way to make an entrance. Nice first post, NYRonin. Welcome to the board.

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Targan 07-08-2008, 11:52 PM My campaign is spec ops based and several of the PCs have H&K SOCOM pistols. I have seen them used in my campaign very effectively for taking out sentries and that sort of thing. I use Guns, Guns, Guns for my weapons stats then convert the 3G stats to the stats used by 'The System That Shall Not Speak Its Name'. I find the results are satisfyingly realistic like most of the combat aspects of my campaign. Meaty goodness.

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newyorkronin 07-09-2008, 11:17 PM Fascinating! And I guess a shooter can always wait for a loud noise to cover up their shot, Enemy At the Gates style.


Fire, Fusion, Steel is an amazing sourcebook, although it turned away my gaming group with its square root formulas. It actually made me pay attention in highschool physics class!


I once handled a SOCOM at an NRA convention. I noticed the orange o-ring water seal on the barrel when I racked the slide. Never knew .45 was already subsonic.

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Targan 07-09-2008, 11:52 PM I once handled a SOCOM at an NRA convention. I noticed the orange o-ring water seal on the barrel when I racked the slide. Never knew .45 was already subsonic.That's why .45s go "boom" instead of "crack".

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Twilight2000V3 07-19-2008, 11:04 AM I've heard of homemade suppressors using shaving cream. I shot a manufactured suppressor that had grease in the baffles.


There are sniper rifles with SUB MOA using suppressors. The suppressor wont cut down on the velocity of the round since the bullet is exiting the barrel and teh suppressor is just eliminiting the sound the hot gasses exiting the barrel makes. Those gasses dont help the bullet anymore.


Weapons like the MP5SD3 have a port just after the chamber that help dissipate gas in the barrel thus reducing a 9mm round (supersonic) to sub-sonic levels.


Subsonic levels (at sea level ) is somehwere aroufn 272 meters per second (IIRR its 890 FPS). Thats why .45 ACP (USUALLY about 900 fps) makes a good supressed round.


The best way I remember it is a suprressor reduces the sound level and gets rid of the flash if using supersonic ammo. Using sub-sonic ammo, a suppressor will almost effectively silence a weapon. Youre more likely to hear the bolt slamming back and forth and the round impacting on the target rather than the noise of gunfire.


Now firing it on full aouto is a COMPLETELY different story.

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leonpoi 07-19-2008, 11:57 PM I have two observations and one question.

I've shot and owned a silenced .22 rifle (I know not much). With supersonics the silencer was pretty much a waste of time (it was a homemade silencer with baffles). With subsonics you could shoot it in a suburban backyard and you wouldn't hear it even if you were putting up the washing a few feet away. What you might here is the bullet smacking into whatever it hit.


I had a old .303 rifle (lee enfileld). It was a 1940's all pitted in the barrel and didn't shoot straight. A bunch of us taped a 2 litre softdrink plastic bottle to the front and shot through it - it hardly made a noise (a little crack as the plastic got punctured) even with the standard supersonic .303 round.


In tw2k, I don't see any rules for suppression, silencing or detecting gun shots. Are there any?

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copeab 07-20-2008, 12:09 AM In tw2k, I don't see any rules for suppression, silencing or detecting gun shots. Are there any?


Merc 2000 has some very minimal rules for suppressed weapons.


Brandon

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Antenna 07-20-2008, 03:36 AM I remember that TR had some extra rules for T2k/M2k. I can recomend that you find the rules. I can post the rules over here becouse I got the visible files stored at my computer.


Antenna

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Antenna 07-20-2008, 03:46 AM NOTE: TRs orignial notes without changes. //Antenna



NEW COMBAT RULES:

SUPPRESSORS

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NOTES:


A few things first to get out of the way before we begin, silencers DO NOT exist... This is a generic term which has be mistakenly applied to mean a add on attachment which silences the report of the weapon. The correct term for this is SUPPRESSOR... and the key reason for this is that nothing totally silences the report of the weapon being fired. A suppressor does two things to the weapon it is attached to, first and foremost it greatly reduces the muzzle flash (making it that much more difficult to find the shot by it's flash). Of course secondly it adds a degree of suppression to the shot when the person uses subsonic ammunition (of course in some caliber's this is not necessary). The whole purpose of the suppressor is to reduce the sound of the report, to make it sound less like a gun being fired and more like a car back fire or even a smaller caliber weapon. I will attempt to going into great detail and will simplify things so you don't have to mail me angry letters asking what they heck I said!




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SILENCE/NOISE: SUPPRESSORS

When someone wants to avoid making noise they often attach a suppressor to their weapon. This can often eliminate the obvious clue to the person's location to enemy units in the vicinity, and give the player a chance at surviving.


CLASSIFICATIONS/GRADES OF SUPPRESSORS

There are 3 classifications of suppressors the player should be aware of, they are:


1. PISTOL CLASS

2. SUB-MACHINEGUN CLASS

3. RIFLE CLASS / SHOTGUN CLASS


Furthermore there are two distinct grades of suppressors that are quite different from the other:


1. INTEGRAL

2. EXTERNAL


The differences being that an integral suppressor is built into the weapons design, this afford the best results in terms of sound reduction as it is a finely tuned weapon. However it's chief disadvantage is that the range is slightly reduced and the weapon must be cleaned by an armroer after so many rounds. An external suppressor is one that most players are familiar with, this is the classic image from Hollywood of a suppressor which is screwed onto the end of the barrel. It may be removed from the weapon at any time to clean out the suppressor or simply reduce the Bulk of the weapon.




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WEAR & TEAR

There are two different sub-sets of the external suppressors, these differ largely in method or care rather than construction. The one thing most players do not know about suppressors is the care that must be afforded the device while in use, to keep it working at optimal effectiveness they will be required to do one of two different things.


1. LUBE THE SUPPRESSOR

2. WATER THE SUPPRESSOR


Sounds funny eh? For users who have to lube their suppressors this means they have to apply a special grease like lubricant to the suppressor-it must be done every 50 or so shots fired through the weapon. This kind of suppressor is typically as long as the barrel (or sometimes the weapon itself) of the weapon it will be mounted to (6 to 8 inches minimum length). For users who have to water down their suppressor this means any liquid (Water, Urine, etc) as long as it cools down the suppressor. This kind of suppressor is usually 5 to 6 inches in total length. This is why suppressors typically are used for quick, suppressed attacks and not continuously through prolonged fights. Prolonged use on the suppressor with ot this care will cause irrevocable damage to the internal baffles.


When this happens the effectiveness of the suppressor goes right out the window-the suppressor is no longer quiet. Users of integral suppressed weapons will typically be required to clean out the barrel and or ports from the build up of powder, this should be done every 75-125 rounds. What this means for the GM is that you can keep track of the number of rounds fired through the players suppressed weapon and start warning them when they get close to the point at which their weapons need to be lubed, water down or cleaned out. If they fail to do so you can have their rounds fired subsequently tear out the internal baffles... bye bye suppressor! This keeps the players honest from constantly using their suppressed subgun to take on the entire company with relative ease and no maintenance.




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EFFECTS OF WEAR & TEAR


8 Rounds Over Suggested Cleaning: The weapon becomes louder by 15%


15 Rounds Over Suggested Cleaning: The weapon becomes louder by 35% (If anyone is attempting to find the character using the weapon the NPC gets a +1 bonus added in to his/her search)


25 Rounds Over Suggested Cleaning: The weapon becomes louder by 60% (Goes Up By One Level On Noise Level Table)


35+ Rounds Over Suggested Cleaning: The weapon becomes louder by 90% (Goes Up By Two Levels On Noise Level Table)


50+ Rounds Over Suggested Cleaning: The Suppressor Is Shot-it is as loud as the weapon normally would be.




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SUBSONIC AMMUNITION


One important thing to note, most suppressed weapons use a special subsonic ammunition in them to ensure the weapon's report is as quiet as possible. Some weapons such as the 45 ACP have a normally low muzzle velocity and as such don't need to use such rounds. If in doubt if your weapon does not need to use subsonic all one has to do is find out the average muzzle velocity of the weapon in question. If it is 1000 feet per second you need the subsonic rounds. It is also important to note that with the larger rifle cartridges the range and power of the weapon drop due to the fact that the cartridge is not loaded to it's full potential. This does not affect pistols and subguns in the game as much as it does rifles, generally with 7.62 NATO rounds the damage is one less than normal (2 instead of 3) and the range is decreased by 20 (so for example a rifle in 7.62 NATO suppressed would have a range of 55 instead of 70). The other advantage this gives a sniper is that their barrel flash is totally shrouded and very difficult to see at long ranges. This range reduction only applies for as long as the user is firing subsonic ammunition and the suppressor is mounted to the barrel, afterwards the weapon fires as normal. Subsonic ammunition is generally a bit more expensive per round, averaging $30 per 6 rounds and has an availability of (R/R).




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PRICING


As with anything suppressors for Twilight or Merc aren't cheep...


Pistol Suppressor (External): $400 t0 $700 (R/S)

Sub-machinegun Suppressor (External): $595 to $740 (R/S)

Rifle Suppressor (External): $595 to $725 (S/S)

Shotgun Suppressor (External): $900 (S/-)

Large Caliber Rifle Suppressor (External): $1200 (S/-)


Integral suppressed weapons are more expensive in that your not just buying the suppressor but rather a whole firearm. The below are listed as an example:


H&K MP-5SD6 (Integrally Suppressed): $1600 (R/R)




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LENGTH OF SUPPRESSORS


This will deal in typical lengths, one can always find specific examples that will contradict this (and if you can congrats...), and in some cases cost additions added to the price.


Small Caliber Pistol Suppressor (3 to 5 inches): Add $150 to cost of normal suppressor

Small Caliber Pistol Integral Suppressor (7 inches): Add $800 to cost of pistol

Small Caliber SMG Suppressor (5 to 6 inches): No Cost Effect

Small Caliber Rifle: (Same As Original Barrel): Add $800 to cost of rifle

Medium Caliber Pistol Suppressor (3 to 5 inches): Add $200 to cost of normal suppressor

Medium Caliber Pistol Suppressor (6 to 7 inches): No Cost Effect

Medium Caliber SMG Suppressor (7 to 9 inches): Add $200 to cost of normal suppressor

Medium Caliber SMG Suppressor (11.0 inches): No Cost Effect

Rifle Suppressor (6.0 to 7.0 inches): Add $200 to cost of normal suppressor

Rifle Suppressor (8.0 to 10.0 inches): No Cost Effect




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REVISED NOISE TABLE: PISTOL & SMG


Sound Level Clear Maximum

I Whispers 1 5

II Normal Voice, Suppressed Small Caliber Pistol, Small Caliber SMG, OR Rifle 10 25

III Shouts, Suppressed Medium Caliber Pistol & Medium Caliber SMG 30 80


DEFINITIONS OF SUPPRESSED SMALL & MEDIUM CALIBER WEAPONS:


Suppressed Small Caliber Pistol, SMG, Rifle: 22 Long Rifle, 22 Short, 32 ACP & 380 ACP


Suppressed Medium Caliber Pistol OR SMG: 9mm Parabellum, 9mm Makarov, 7.62x25mm, 10mm Auto, 40 S&W & 45 ACP




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REVISED NOISE TABLE: RIFLES & SHOTGUNS


Sound Level Clear Maximum

IV Screams, Suppressed Rifle & OR Shotgun Weapons 100 400

V Small Arms Fire, Vehicles, Suppressed Large Caliber Rifles 400 1000

VI Heavy Weapons fire, Light Aircraft & Helicopters 800 1500

VII Explosions, Jets, Artillery 1500 4000


DEFINITIONS OF SUPPRESSED RIFLE, SHOTGUN & LARGE CALIBER RIFLES:


Suppressed Rifle: 5.56x45mm NATO, 7.62x51mm NATO, 5.45x39mm SOVIET, etc


Suppressed Shotgun: 12 Gauge


Suppressed Large Caliber Rifle: 50 Browning, 338 Wnchester Magnum, etc




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FINAL NOTES:

You won't find machine-guns suppressed for one BIG reason... they put a high volume of fire (typically full automatic fire) through the weapon. That means by the time you've squeezed the trigger a few times the weapons will have already fired the minimum number of rounds required before the weapon should be cleaned, lubed or watered. Which means more than likely you've already shot the baffles out!! The major exception being Reflex suppressors to this caveat, these do not require regular maintenance but should rarely be offered to PC's. The reason being that this would unhinge the effect of actually making them care and maintain their weapons and suppressors. They'd start carrying all weapons suppressed all the time... Reflex suppressors can be used on machine-guns, but were not talking about miniguns here-just regular single barreled machine-guns.

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GOF 07-20-2008, 07:12 AM Silencer or Suppressor - different name, means the same

Reflex Suppressors, very nice piece of kit

The mention of them reminded me I had a link for them

http://guns.connect.fi/rs/index.html

everything you might want to know about suppressors

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leonpoi 07-28-2008, 04:45 PM Merc 2000 has some very minimal rules for suppressed weapons.


Brandon

Thanks.

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