The Royal Army of Scotland

[James Langham]

A write up on one of the potential nightmares for the English Government. I apologize now to anybody who gets the reference to the Call of Cthulhu adventure "The Water Horse."

As ever nit picking, error spotting, etc are more than welcome.

[dude_uk]

Great read as ever James.Its the personalities you populate your works with that make them entertaining and informative.

Doesn't referring to themselves as the 'English Government', rather than 'H.M Government' or the 'British Government' further legitimise dissident's claims? Compromising their claim to be the legitimate government of the United Kingdom? Plus the Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish members of the Government, civil service and armed forces who might not appreciate this title.

Also in Scotland there are several Universities Officers Training Corps-

Aberdeen University Officers Training Corps
Edinburgh University Officers Training Corps
Glasgow University Officers Training Corps
Tayforth University Officers Training Corps

[Rainbow Six]

James, as always with your work, kudos on coming up with something that complies with the canon established in the Survivor’s Guide to the UK (particularly in this instance, where in my opinion canon raises a number of questions...).

I think main challenge is numbers though...if you go by canon the RAS is 2,000 strong but is supposed to control the whole of Scotland? The population of Scotland was in the region of the 5 million mark in 1996 (per the 1991 census) – granted a large number of those people lived in Glasgow and Edinburgh, both of which were nuclear targets but that still leaves a lot of people living in the Central Belt, so personally I’d look at upping the strength of those Militia Battalions to keep order, certainly those units based in Central Scotland. What sort of weapons and equipment do you see the Militia using?

With regard to non Scottish units, main players here are likely to be the RN base at Rosyth (if you still have it open – IRL it closed in 1996 as a result of Options). I grew up about five miles from there and it was a pretty big base in the 80’s...you also had a fair number of ex sailors living in the area, many of whom had married local girls. Just down the road from Rosyth was RAF Pitreavie Castle, which was HQ for NATO Naval forces North Atlantic and 18 Group, RAF (if you want to take Pitreavie Castle out of the equation probably easy enough to say it was plastered by conventional bombing at some point). The RAF also had Leuchars (F3 Tornado base) and the two bases on the Moray coast, Lossiemouth and Kinloss (Maritime strike and recon respectively) as well as a couple of non flying bases dotted about here and there. Army HQ in Scotland at the time was located at Craigiehall, near Kirkliston, just north of Edinburgh (it moved from Edinburgh Castle in the 50’s, although Edinburgh castle remains an active military base and in the T2k timeline would have had a working 25 pounder (it was replaced by a 105mm light gun a few years ago) that is used to fire the One o’clock gun at – oddly enough – one o’clock every day). There were three other Army bases in and around Edinburgh – Dreghorn, Glencorse, and Redford. Dreghorn and Redford may well have been destroyed when Edinburgh was nuked, but Glencorse was located about ten miles or so outside Edinburgh (to the south east) and was a recruit training base, so could well supply a ready made Battalion if it came over to the SNP in 98. I’d imagine it would also have a plentiful supply of weapons and ammo, and would give a good base to control the Borders region from.

Oh, and 45 Commando, Royal Marines were based at RM Condor at Arbroath, just up from the road from Dundee, so there might have been a handful of Marines around. So there’s a fair scope for a few scattered HMG enclaves in Scotland – I’m not sure how likely it would be that all of these bases would come over en masse.

As I’ve said in a previous post, I’m still not 100% convinced that Companies would take titles from British Army battle honours. I totally buy into the idea of attempting to tap into the great Scottish military tradition, but still think there would be an attempt by the SNP leadership to have more “Scottishness” in the titles, but that’s maybe just me...

Good job as always - hope the above is of some use.

Dave

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

James, as always with your work, kudos on coming up with something that complies with the canon established in the Survivor’s Guide to the UK (particularly in this instance, where in my opinion canon raises a number of questions...).

I think main challenge is numbers though...if you go by canon the RAS is 2,000 strong but is supposed to control the whole of Scotland? The population of Scotland was in the region of the 5 million mark in 1996 (per the 1991 census) – granted a large number of those people lived in Glasgow and Edinburgh, both of which were nuclear targets but that still leaves a lot of people living in the Central Belt, so personally I’d look at upping the strength of those Militia Battalions to keep order, certainly those units based in Central Scotland. What sort of weapons and equipment do you see the Militia using?

With regard to non Scottish units, main players here are likely to be the RN base at Rosyth (if you still have it open – IRL it closed in 1996 as a result of Options). I grew up about five miles from there and it was a pretty big base in the 80’s...you also had a fair number of ex sailors living in the area, many of whom had married local girls. Just down the road from Rosyth was RAF Pitreavie Castle, which was HQ for NATO Naval forces North Atlantic and 18 Group, RAF (if you want to take Pitreavie Castle out of the equation probably easy enough to say it was plastered by conventional bombing at some point). The RAF also had Leuchars (F3 Tornado base) and the two bases on the Moray coast, Lossiemouth and Kinloss (Maritime strike and recon respectively) as well as a couple of non flying bases dotted about here and there. Army HQ in Scotland at the time was located at Craigiehall, near Kirkliston, just north of Edinburgh (it moved from Edinburgh Castle in the 50’s, although Edinburgh castle remains an active military base and in the T2k timeline would have had a working 25 pounder (it was replaced by a 105mm light gun a few years ago) that is used to fire the One o’clock gun at – oddly enough – one o’clock every day). There were three other Army bases in and around Edinburgh – Dreghorn, Glencorse, and Redford. Dreghorn and Redford may well have been destroyed when Edinburgh was nuked, but Glencorse was located about ten miles or so outside Edinburgh (to the south east) and was a recruit training base, so could well supply a ready made Battalion if it came over to the SNP in 98. I’d imagine it would also have a plentiful supply of weapons and ammo, and would give a good base to control the Borders region from.

Oh, and 45 Commando, Royal Marines were based at RM Condor at Arbroath, just up from the road from Dundee, so there might have been a handful of Marines around. So there’s a fair scope for a few scattered HMG enclaves in Scotland – I’m not sure how likely it would be that all of these bases would come over en masse.

As I’ve said in a previous post, I’m still not 100% convinced that Companies would take titles from British Army battle honours. I totally buy into the idea of attempting to tap into the great Scottish military tradition, but still think there would be an attempt by the SNP leadership to have more “Scottishness” in the titles, but that’s maybe just me...

Good job as always - hope the above is of some use.

Dave

Thanks for the comments, much appreciated.

Bear in mind the RAS does not have large numbers to oppose it, the marauder groups are actually quite small and untrained. I will probably expand the militia from the 2001 level. Militia will be armed with a real mix, at best SLRs, often .303s and some shotguns. Ammunition will be in short supply. Uniform will be armband at the start, probably with self-bought military surplus kit. Numbers may well be limited by availability of weapons though.

RN - I will probably add a note putting many in the Engineering Rgt or the Amphibious Squadron. Most of the RAF will probably gravitate to the RAF Rgt or the Engineering Rgt. The conventional bombing raid could make a good short article in that it's own right. The RM will probably gravitate to the Rapid Action Force.

I may have one base refuse and a firefight break out.

I considered as many options as I could for the names, individuals didn't feel right as it is the regiments that tend to have the glory. Any names you can suggest are welcome. If you have a better option please let me know.

Really useful comments, thank you.

[Canadian Army]

I like the "The Mystery Of Loch Feinn" reference.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Thanks for the comments, much appreciated.

No problem. I appreciate that whilst I'm still discussing the RAS I may be drifting away from the intent of your thread, which was to expand on what is in canon...whereas I may be looking at more from the perspective of the flaws in that canon material...as a Scot I can't help but look at it and wonder how realistic some of it is...for example I have doubts about how many RAF / RN personnel will want to throw their lot in with an independent Scotland given that majority of them are going to be English. There probably wont be enough Marines left at Condor to resist if the RAS attacks in strength, but I'm not so sure about the Navy and RAF bases - at best I think some of them would remain neutral, at worst they are going to stay loyal to the Crown. It's probably possible RAS forces could "beseige" them and effectively starve them out, but that's going to take time and manpower. And if the RAF have enough fuel to get a Tornado airborne that could cause the RAS a World of hurt...so apologies if I'm derailing the thread slightly...

That said...looking at it from the point of view of how to expand on canon...

Originally Posted by James Langham

Bear in mind the RAS does not have large numbers to oppose it, the marauder groups are actually quite small and untrained. I will probably expand the militia from the 2001 level. Militia will be armed with a real mix, at best SLRs, often .303s and some shotguns. Ammunition will be in short supply. Uniform will be armband at the start, probably with self-bought military surplus kit. Numbers may well be limited by availability of weapons though.

Fair enough, but there could still be a fair amount of law enforcement to be done...there are a few towns in central Scotland that have areas that are "dodgy" (to put it politely)...there's likely to be a fair amount of friction in some of these places with local strongmen trying to seize power, that sort of thing. That's where I think the manpower quoted in canon is somehwat optimistic to control all of Scotland. What I'd be inclined to do is have the standing force 2000 strong and have another 2,000 (or so) serving as part time Militia. Assuming the sailors come over, control of the Navy base at Rosyth would give a firm grip of the southern half of Fife (and dependent on how much damage you want to inflict may give the Scots control of a dock large enough for an Illustrious Class aircraft carrier or a big ferry (IRL a RO / RO ferry sailed between Rosyth and Zeebrugge for a number of years, whilst cruise liners have also called in). From Kinloss and Lossiemouth you'd have a great base to secure the Highlands (there's also an Army base at Fort George, which is only about ten miles from Inverness - chances are an HSF Company would be based there from whichever of the 51st Highland Battalions affiliated to the Queen's Own Highlanders). Leuchars is in northern Fife, so with Leuchars and Rosyth under control you've probably got Fife. I discussed Glencorse in my last post - with a Battalion in there you're in good shape to control the eastern Borders (and protect against incursions from England). Put at least one Battalion in Stirling and you can reach into the Central Belt (which was home to a lot of hi tech manufacturing sites for companies like Motorola, NEC, and IBM). I think you'd need a Battalion in South West Scotland as well, maybe in somewhere like Dumfries, to control the region and guard against anyone coming into the area from northwest England - you wouldn't want some marauder horde working their way north from what's left of Greater Manchester / Lancs.

Originally Posted by James Langham

RN - I will probably add a note putting many in the Engineering Rgt or the Amphibious Squadron. Most of the RAF will probably gravitate to the RAF Rgt or the Engineering Rgt. The conventional bombing raid could make a good short article in that it's own right. The RM will probably gravitate to the Rapid Action Force.

I may have one base refuse and a firefight break out.

This thread has reminded me that I still have some work to do on my own (non canon) Separatist piece...I intend to have a small number of Condor Marines running around causing general mischief...

Originally Posted by James Langham

I considered as many options as I could for the names, individuals didn't feel right as it is the regiments that tend to have the glory. Any names you can suggest are welcome. If you have a better option please let me know.

Really useful comments, thank you.

I have been racking my brains trying to think of suitable names other than those that you already have such as Bannockburn, Flodden, etc and to be honest I can't think of any. I'm sure if I googled Jacobite Battles or someething similar I could come up with some, but that obviously wouldn't be an option in post apoc Scotland circa Feb 1998, so didn't go down that road.

What I would suggest is trying to tie the Battalions in with their traditional recruiting areas. For example, the Gordon Highlanders recruited from Aberdeen and Angus, the Black Watch recruited from Fife, Perth, and Tayside, etc, so I'd suggest something along the lines of 1st Battalion (Black Watch), Royal Army of Scotland for the Battalion covering the Black Watch recruiting area, 2nd Battalion (Royal Scots), Royal Army of Scotland for the Battalion covering Edinburgh and the Lothians, etc, etc. That way you're taping into the Regimental names (as you say, it's the Regiment that gets the glory). You could follow the British Army order of precedence if you wished, which would make the Royal Scots first in line. But for Companies, I'm stuck with straightforward 1 Company, 2 Company, etc, etc. Or maybe place names, e.g. 1 (Fife) Company, 2 (Perthshire) Company, etc.

Cheers

[simonmark6]

There are several inconsistencies in the UK Survivor's book that are very difficult to reconcile.

The one that gets me is the break down of the population: it says the prewar population was 56 million with 80% English, 9% Scottish, 4% Irish and 2% Welsh with about 5% being of other origins. It then goes on to say that in the post war UK about 25% of people speak Welsh. That either means that casualties in the rest of the UK were about 90%+ with very few Welsh speakers dying, or Plaid Cymru have been involved in a massive re-education policy that has spread the Welsh language well beyond its borders. Or, the writers screwed up their Maths.

In 1996 there were about 700,000 Welsh speakers, if that's 25% of the UK's 2001 population, the UK is rally screwed, down to what, about 2.8 million?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

What I would suggest is trying to tie the Battalions in with their traditional recruiting areas. For example, the Gordon Highlanders recruited from Aberdeen and Angus, the Black Watch recruited from Fife, Perth, and Tayside, etc, so I'd suggest something along the lines of 1st Battalion (Black Watch), Royal Army of Scotland for the Battalion covering the Black Watch recruiting area, 2nd Battalion (Royal Scots), Royal Army of Scotland for the Battalion covering Edinburgh and the Lothians, etc, etc. That way you're taping into the Regimental names (as you say, it's the Regiment that gets the glory). You could follow the British Army order of precedence if you wished, which would make the Royal Scots first in line. But for Companies, I'm stuck with straightforward 1 Company, 2 Company, etc, etc. Or maybe place names, e.g. 1 (Fife) Company, 2 (Perthshire) Company, etc.

Cheers

Elaborating slightly on my earlier suggestion...

The Scottish Horse (Armoured)
HQ Stirling Castle
Area of Operations: Deployed in support of other Battalions as necessary
AFV’s: 4 Chieftain MBT’s, 5 Scorpion CVR(T)’s

Rapid Action Force
HQ Stirling Castle
Area of Operations: Deployed in support of other Battalions as necessary

1st Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (Royal Scots)
HQ Stirling Castle
Area of Operations: Central Scotland

Formed from elements of the 2nd Battalion, 52nd Lowland Volunteers (TA).

2nd Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (Royal Highland Fusiliers)
HQ: Dumfries
Area of Operations: Ayrshire, Dumfries and Galloway

3rd Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (King’s Own Scottish Borderers)
HQ Glencorse Barracks, Penicuik.
Area of Operations: Lothian and Borders

Formed from elements of the 2nd Battalion, 52nd Lowland Volunteers (TA). Includes a large number of recruits who were undergoing basic training at Glencorse at the time of the nuclear strikes

4th Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (Black Watch)
HQ: RAF Leuchars
Area of Operations: Fife, Perthshire

5th Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (Highlanders)
HQ: Fort George, Inverness
Area of Operations: Highlands

6th Infantry Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland (Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders)
HQ Stirling Castle
Area of Operations: Central Scotland

Formed from elements of the 3rd Battalion, 51st Highland Volunteers (TA)

1st Support Battalion, Royal Army of Scotland
HQ Stirling Castle
Includes elements of the RLC and REME. Heavily augmented by civilian volunteers

This does set up a scenario where the British and Scottish Armies are both fielding similarly named formations.

I'd personally be inclined to have Rosyth subjected to such heavy conventional bombing that the RN have pulled out completely. (I seem to recall having read somewhere a theory that HMG pull all forces out of Scotland at some point in time, thus removing the RAF and RN from the equation. I can't find a reference to it in the SGUK, so think it may have been on the etranger site somewhere. It does seem to be to be a more likely option than having large numbers of English airmen and sailors joining a Separatist Scottish Army).

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by dude_uk

Great read as ever James.Its the personalities you populate your works with that make them entertaining and informative.

Doesn't referring to themselves as the 'English Government', rather than 'H.M Government' or the 'British Government' further legitimise dissident's claims? Compromising their claim to be the legitimate government of the United Kingdom? Plus the Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish members of the Government, civil service and armed forces who might not appreciate this title.

Also in Scotland there are several Universities Officers Training Corps-

Aberdeen University Officers Training Corps
Edinburgh University Officers Training Corps
Glasgow University Officers Training Corps
Tayforth University Officers Training Corps

I used the term English Government in the same sense of the Survivor's Guide, in reality they would retain the term H. M. Government (being Welsh I agree wholeheartedly with you!).

My belief is that the OTC will have been mobilized in 1997 to provide for replacement infantry subaltans traditionally the highest casualty group in the army).

Glad you like it, it will be expanded at some point (as will the MBT article, I'm just away on a course and don't have all my reference material to do that).

[cawest]

are you going to cover any navy or air assets?

[James Langham2]

Originally Posted by cawest

are you going to cover any navy or air assets?

Nice idea although there isn't a lot!

[cawest]

the oil rigs on the north sea would need to be checked out(?), but also Scotland had a long coast line and small islands all around it. maybe small units of sail boats, with weapons and small engine (alcohol powered) to stop pirates, maybe over fishing. salvage protection teams and salvage units. they have to have some wrecked ships end on the beach after storms. Gliders? have no idea if this is workable. but if there should be a few gliders schools with all of those mountains. that is unless the weather in that area is wrong for that kind of thing

[RN7]

Originally Posted by cawest

are you going to cover any navy or air assets?

Bryn Monnery tried to make sense out of an independent Scottish military. This dates back to late 1990's figures.

Scotland consists of the extreme north of the island of Britain, and many of the islands off the north west. It’s territorial waters extend would 12 miles beyond it’s shores. About 9.6% of the UK’s population are Scottish or of Scottish descent (5.8 million), but the population of Scotland is 5.1 million, which is 8.3% of the total UK population of 61.6 million.

GDP is on a par with the rest of the UK if the oil resources of the North Sea (which are in international, not Scottish waters and may not necessarily be ceded to Scotland, but rather to the BP Corporation, which is registered in London). For the purposes of this document we’ll stipulate that Scotland did indeed get the oil fields and has a GNP of roughly £67.7 billion.

Scottish Army

The British Army has 10 Scottish Regiments. These are in order of precedence:

1) Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Tank Regiment)
2) 19 Regiment, Royal Artillery (Artillery Regiment)
3) 40 Regiment, Royal Artillery (Artillery Regiment)
4) Scots Guards (Infantry Battalion)
5) Royal Scots (Infantry Battalion)
6) Royal Highland Fusiliers (Infantry Battalion)
7) King’s Own Scots Borderers (Infantry Battalion)
8) The Black Watch (Infantry Battalion)
9) Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (Infantry Battalion)
10) The Highlanders (Infantry Battalion)

It has been suggested that the Scots Guards would remain as part of the British Army, while the rest would form the core of the new Scottish Army. Currently Scotland does not produce enough soldiers to fill all these regiments, and Ghurkhas, Tongans and Fijians are used to fill out their ranks. They produce sufficient soldiers to fill 4 infantry battalions, and the following amalgamations have been suggested:

1) Royal Scots and KOSB as Royal Scots Borderers
2) Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and The (Queens Own Cameron, Seaforth and Gordon) Highlanders as The (Argyll, Sutherland, Cameron, Seaforth and Gordon) Highlanders

In terms of equipment their share of APC’s would be sufficient for 1 Battalion of Armoured Infantry with Warrior, and another Battalion of Mechanised Infantry with Saxon. The RSDG is currently an Armoured Regiment with 58 Challenger 2 MBT. While the Regiments personnel (400 men) would go to Scotland, major equipment such as this is not held at Regimental level, but rather in a common pool. Their share of British Armour would be 32 Challenger 2 MBT and 16 Scimitar Light Tanks, which fits nicely a structure of 2Armoured and 2 Armoured Recce Squadrons.

The 2 RA Regiments are both AS-90 regiments, but 19 has recently converted from a Light Gun Regiment. Again, these are not entirely Scottish. Scotland's share of the Artillery units would be 15 AS-90, 3 MLRS and 5 Light Guns (grouped together as a single Field Artillery Regiment). Their share of Air Defence equipment would be 39 Javelin/ Starstreak units (mostly Javelins, I’ll assume Javelin) and 4 Rapier units.

There is currently 1 regular brigade based in Scotland, 52 (Infantry) Brigade, which controls regular infantry battalions in Edinburgh, but also Preston and Chester in England.

Territorial Army units stationed in Scotland would become part of the Scottish TA. These are:

HQ 51 (Scottish) Brigade
A (Ayrshire) and C (Fife and Fofar) Squadrons, The Queens’ Own Yeomanry (Land Rover Mounted Recce units) (100 men each)
207 and 212 Batteries, Royal Artillery (Artillery Batteries (100 men each)
102 Field Squadron, RE (Engineer Squadron (100 men)
32 Signals Regiment, RSigs (Communications Battalion (500 men)
Lowland Volunteers (TA Infantry Battalion (500 men)
Highland Volunteers (TA Infantry Battalion, (500 men)
Scottish Transport Regiment, RLC (Logistics Regiment (500 men)
Squadron of 23 SAS (Reserve Special Forces, (70 men)
15 Company of 4th Battalion, the Parachute Regiment (Airborne Infantry Company) (100 men)
205 Field Ambulance (Medical Battalion) and 255 Medical Squadron (Company)

This gives the corps of a 2nd Brigade, consisting mainly of territorials.


Scottish Army

Army Level Units
Scottish SS Regiment (Special Services, mix of Reserve and Regular Para’s, Marines and SAS)

Artillery
207/212 Area Air Defence Battery (V) (4 Rapiers)
19 Field Regiment (3 MLRS and 15 AS-90, organised into 2 close support batteries with 6x AS-90 and 1x Depth Fire Battery with a troop of 3 MLRS and a troop of 3x AS-90 Braveheart)
40 Air Defence Regiment (36 Javelin)

51 Mechanised Brigade
Scots Dragoon Guards (1 Armoured Recce Squadron of 8x Scimtar and 2 Tank Squadrons of 14x Challenger 2)
Scots Borderers (Armoured Infantry Battalion with Warrior)
The Highlanders (Mechanised Infantry Battalion with Saxon)
Black Watch (Regular Light Infantry Battalion)

52 Infantry Brigade
Scottish Yeomanry (1 Armoured Recce Squadron with 8x Scimitar and 2 Recce Squadrons with Land Rovers, all reserve)
Highland Fusiliers (Regular Light Infantry Battalion)
The Lowland Volunteers (Reserve Light Infantry Battalion)
The Highland Volunteers (Reserve Light Infantry Battalion)

Plus the necessary support units. The regular army is around 9,250 regular soldiers backed up by around 3,200 reservists


The Scottish Navy

Currently the British strategic deterrent is based in Scotland, but this doesn’t mean it will be handed over to Scotland. The Submarine Fleet is 11 nuclear boats, and handing one of these over would cause apoplexy, especially as the SNP doesn’t want nuclear powered vessels. The Carriers, Assault ships etc. would be retained by the Anglo-Irish state.

Scotland's share of the navy would be 3 vessels of the Destroyer-Frigate force and 2 Minehunters. Maybe one of the assault ships too. None of these are particularly useful for the Scottish Navy, and maybe they could use them as bargaining chips with the Anglo-Irish state for some more useful vessels like fisheries patrol craft.

Scottish Navy

ex-HMS Sheffield (Type 22/2 Frigate)
ex-HMS Coventry (Type 22/2 Frigate)
ex-HMS Cardiff (Type 42 Destroyer)
ex-HMS Brecon (Hunt class Minesweeper)
ex-HMS Ladbury (Hunt class Minesweeper)

The crews of these vessels would consist of 1,062 officers and men. The total force is around 3,500 men strong.


The Scottish Air Force

There are current 14 combat squadrons in the RAF. Scotland’s share would be a single combat squadron of 12 aircraft, probably the older Jaguars. Their share of the support force would be a single transport squadron with 4 Hercules, and 2 KC-10 tankers. Maritime Command has 3 squadrons of Nimrods assigned to the GIUK gap in Kinloss. It would be legitimate for one of these to be transferred to the Scottish Airforce.

Of the Helicopter force, 2 Chinooks would be transferred to the Scots, along with 3 Wessex. The Army Helicopter force would also hand over 9 Lynx and 9 Gazelle.

Scottish Airforce

1 Fighter Squadron (12x Jaguar)
1 Transport Squadron (4 Hercules and 2 KC-10)
1 Maritime Patrol Squadron (8 Nimrod)
1 Army Support Helicopter Regiment (2 Chinook, 9 Lynx, 9 Gazelle)

It would be around 2,500 men strong.

This of course is all pre-Twilight War.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

Bryn Monnery tried to make sense out of an independent Scottish military. This dates back to late 1990's figures.

FWIW, in Indyref 1 in 2014 the SNP proposals for an Independent Scottish Armed Forces were based on Scotland getting the following 'share' of UK resources:

Total manpower of 20,000 (all services) - 15,000 Regular, 5,000 Reserve - which would have manned:
4 x Frigates
Unspecified number of smaller vessels
16 x Typhoons
Unspecified number of transport aircraft / helicopters
2 x Army Brigades (1 Regular, 1 Reserve)

It should be noted that these were the SNP proposals - effectively a 'wish list'. At no point did the UK Government ever confirm that we would actually get any of the above (I seem to recall various articles that speculated that it was highly unlikely we would get any Typhoons, the best we could hope for were Hawks). AFAIK there was no expectation that we'd get any Challengers - the heaviest armour we were expecting was Scorpions / Scimitars.

I also think manpower would have been a challenge, particularly as I think a lot of people looking for a long term military career would opt to serve in the British Armed Forces.

The proposed annual defence budget was 2.5 Billion Sterling, which would have equated to approx 1.7% of GDP. An independent Scotland would have sought NATO membership (like EU membership there was some debate as to whether we would have to apply as a new member or not).

Again, this is all IRL, so not relevant to T2K, but it looks as though Bryn's numbers weren't too far out.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

FWIW, in Indyref 1 in 2014 the SNP proposals for an Independent Scottish Armed Forces were based on Scotland getting the following 'share' of UK resources:

Total manpower of 20,000 (all services) - 15,000 Regular, 5,000 Reserve - which would have manned:
4 x Frigates
Unspecified number of smaller vessels
16 x Typhoons
Unspecified number of transport aircraft / helicopters
2 x Army Brigades (1 Regular, 1 Reserve)

It should be noted that these were the SNP proposals - effectively a 'wish list'. At no point did the UK Government ever confirm that we would actually get any of the above (I seem to recall various articles that speculated that it was highly unlikely we would get any Typhoons, the best we could hope for were Hawks). AFAIK there was no expectation that we'd get any Challengers - the heaviest armour we were expecting was Scorpions / Scimitars.

I also think manpower would have been a challenge, particularly as I think a lot of people looking for a long term military career would opt to serve in the British Armed Forces.

The proposed annual defence budget was 2.5 Billion Sterling, which would have equated to approx 1.7% of GDP. An independent Scotland would have sought NATO membership (like EU membership there was some debate as to whether we would have to apply as a new member or not).

Again, this is all IRL, so not relevant to T2K, but it looks as though Bryn's numbers weren't too far out.

Rainbow Six if you want an idea of how an independent Scottish military would be organised and armed you just need to look at the armed forces of the Republic of Ireland. Both countries are very similar in almost every way, even by racial and cultural comparison. Scotland has a slightly larger population than the ROI, but it would be a bit smaller than a United Ireland.

Republic of Ireland had an economy of US$ 227 billion and spent about 1 billion on defence in 2015. It had 9,100 active and 2,600 reserves in all forces.

The Army is organised into two brigades with some independent regiments, battalions and companies. No tanks (except 14 Scorpion), just over 100 APC and armed recce vehicles, 24 light artillery guns, infantry support weapons and some MANPADS and AA guns.

The Air Force has no combat capability whatsoever except for 7 PC-9 turboprops which can be armed with a gun or rocket pod. Transport and marine patrol handled by just 2 CN-235's. Other aircraft include 1 Gulfstream GIV (sold), 1 Learjet 45, 5 Cessna FR-172H and just 6 AW139 helicopters to support the whole Army

The Navy has 9 Fishery Patrol Vessels, and some are due to be retired. These could be classed as corvettes or maybe small frigates due to their dimensions, but they have no anti-aircraft or ASW missiles or weapons at all. Most potent weapon in Irish naval service is the 76mm cannon.

Add to this the Irish police force (unarmed in the main), two police helicopters and some SAR helicopters operated by a British based company to support the Irish Navy in coast guard duties and that is it.

I think an SNP dominated Scotland would be fielding a military very like this, as if you take the British big power mentality or its global policy or ego out of Scottish defence equation what do you have left? The SNP attitude or policy on defence is minimal. ie lightly armed self defence force, with police support and fishery protection capabilities. Nothing else.

Even if Scotland was to retain some frigates, Typhoons and Challengers tanks I doubt the SNP would want or could afford to keep them. Also the only thing that Scotland now manufactures for the British armed forces is ships, and the only thing that Scottish shipyards now really build are warships for the Royal Navy. New fishery patrol ships for a new Scottish Navy are not going to keep the Scottish shipbuilding industry afloat, although McTaggart Scott still makes components for British and American nuclear submarines. I don't know why the SNP threw in NATO membership for an independent Scotland, maybe it was an afterthought to appeal to British ex-servicemen and their families in Scotland.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by RN7

Rainbow Six if you want an idea of how an independent Scottish military would be organised and armed you just need to look at the armed forces of the Republic of Ireland. Both countries are very similar in almost every way, even by racial and cultural comparison. Scotland has a slightly larger population than the ROI, but it would be a bit smaller than a United Ireland.

Yeah, I agree that’s a pretty good comparison.

Originally Posted by RN7

Even if Scotland was to retain some frigates, Typhoons and Challengers tanks I doubt the SNP would want or could afford to keep them.

As I said upthread, afaik there was never any intent to retain any MBT’s. The heaviest armour the SNP were after were CVR(T)’s. The Typhoons were a slightly different matter. Remember what I posted upthread was the SNP ‘want’ list. I don’t think there was ever a realistic chance of us getting any Typhoons – or Tornados for that matter – but at I think least one Squadron of Hawks would have been a possibility, probably based at Leuchars. I’m aware that the Hawk is not a front line fighter aircraft but it would have allowed us to claim that our Air Force had some sort of air defence capability, however limited that might have been. In other words, we would have asked for Typhoons but settled for Hawks. If we’d started off asking for Hawks we’d have probably got Tucanos.

Originally Posted by RN7

I don't know why the SNP threw in NATO membership for an independent Scotland, maybe it was an afterthought to appeal to British ex-servicemen and their families in Scotland.

Same reason they wanted to keep the Queen as Head of State – to win votes. If we could have retained NATO membership relatively smoothly it might have also been used as ammunition when it came to making a case for also retaining EU Membership, but I’m speculating on that one.