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  #91  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:53 AM
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But it's a bloody long way just to do a one-off demo job.

I'm inclined to think that a more expansive campaign of sabotage would be planned (and maybe they even have the ability to pull it off). I wouldn't be at all surprised given Indonesia's history of communism if they didn't recieve some encouragement and maybe even assistance from the Soviets. Particularly given that Garden Island and Fremantle harbour were significant for the US Navy at the time (and not simply for R&R, was also a major resupply point for food & fuel and even low level maintenance from what I understand). Plus we had Harry Holt running full bore along the same coast.


Personal anecdote.
Living in Perth during the 1980s, we could always tell a US carrier group was going to be visiting soon - we'd see the C-2 Greyhounds flying into Perth airport.

Another personal anecdote.
Way back when we were doing the LLOps training up north, during one of the Spiderman Exercises, one of the Pilbara Regt patrols picked up someone wandering around in the bush near the exercise area.
Apparently he claimed he was a tourist and was very lost. Turns out he was Indonesian. Turns out there was no record of him entering Australia by the normal accepted means.
Turns out about a week earlier, an unidentified low flying aircraft had been picked up by air traffic control as being in Australian airspace without logging a flight plan.
Further investigation supposedly identified him as an Indon army officer...

Now some of this was related to a group of us from our training WO because he was actually being posted to the Pilbara Regt as his next assignment and he was in touch with them regularly. All I know for certain is that someone was picked up and identified as Indonesian. The claims that he was an Indon army officer could have been soldier's stories. However I heard about the unidentified low flying aircraft from a second source many months after the Ex. (but that still could have been soldier's stories, just in this case it got picked up by civvies).
Still, it's one of those things that make you go "Hmm".
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  #92  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:43 AM
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I'm thinking given Australia's generally multicultural population, it would be fairly easy for Indonesian soldiers/saboteurs to hide in plain sight just by wearing civilian clothing and keeping their weaponry well hidden. If even just one got hired by a refinery, they could do some serious damage over a period of time just by "accidentally" setting a valve the wrong way, or hitting a switch at the wrong time. Add in a few explosive charges here and there and well....
Even a more overt attack such as a raid on a critical facility (power distribution, generation, etc) could do a lot to cripple the country, or at least the local area, and unless those involved were caught in the act, again it wouldn't be that hard to blend in with the rest of the population, especially if they'd been living in the area for a few months or more.

I started re-reading a book from my collection last night which I probably should have picked up weeks ago - "Australians at War - Modern Military Towards 2000" published in 1989. https://biblio.co.uk/book/australian...0/d/1032384970 The first chapter which was written by several retired senior Australian officers details a scenario in which raiders keep Australian forces occupied over in WA, while a landing takes place in far north Queensland. The opponent isn't named, but it's fairly clear who they were talking about....
The scenario (both parts) would work very nicely in tying up a large number of Australian troops and ships. A very nice diversion while the main Indonesian force moves into PNG.
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  #93  
Old 11-28-2018, 04:56 PM
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That one throwaway line in "What's Polish for G'day" is really screwing things up for me at the moment. Without nukes, just how do you damage a refinery to the point where it's production is seriously degraded for a period of at least a few years?
The answer I think (and somebody PLEASE give me more options!) is sabotage and commando attacks.
IIRC, Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising starts with someone sabotaging an oil refinery. As a result, it basically self-destructs. I imagine that repairing the damage would take at least a year or two. It's been a while since I read that part (I skipped it on subsequent readings) so I might not be remembering it accurately.

Leg, are you trying to avoid nuking Australia? That Garden Island/Kwinana refinery site that Targan mentioned would definitely be on the Soviet's list. Also, the prologue to Mad Max 2 (the Road Warrior, in the U.S.) strongly implies the use of nuclear weapons on oil refineries in Australia.

IMO, you can't really have a true T2K setting without at least a bit of nuke damage.
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  #94  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:13 PM
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I dont see every country as being nuked - you can have a lot of damage just from a country coming apart at the seams - for proof look at the rolling ball of fun that is today's Somalia for instance

just rioting and panic from the expectation of being nuked could be more than enough to really screw things up - and add in some fun things like major forest fires/crop failure/sabotage attacks and you could really not be in a good place very quickly

however there are definitely targets for nukes in Australia even if all you did was go after the US tracking stations that are in the country
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  #95  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:34 PM
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Leg, are you trying to avoid nuking Australia?
Yes, because of that line in "What's Polish for G'day" where an Australian SAS trooper mentions Australia is a member of the "Organisation of Non-irradiated Nations."
However, they do indicate France is also a member of that unofficial group, and it's my belief they would almost certainly have received at least a handful of nukes to ports near their borders. In that light it's just possible a small warhead or two may have been dropped on remote Australian targets, but certainly not on the major cities. Still, I want to do as much damage as possible using conventional means before applying nukes (if any).
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  #96  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:52 PM
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However, they do indicate France is also a member of that unofficial group, and it's my belief they would almost certainly have received at least a handful of nukes to ports near their borders. In that light it's just possible a small warhead or two may have been dropped on remote Australian targets, but certainly not on the major cities. Still, I want to do as much damage as possible using conventional means before applying nukes (if any).
Roger that.

I hesitate to bring this up, but is that "G'Day…" article part of the official T2K canon? If it is, then I think a compliant/compatible sourcebook should try to align as closely as possible. But if not, or you don't care about compliance/compatibility, then your hands aren't tied. Do whatever you think is best for your sourcebook.

Sabotage- especially that which would start fires- could definitely wreck a refinery for a good long time. No fuel, modern civilization starts grinding to a halt.
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  #97  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:56 PM
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Hmm, I think I might have an idea on why Indonesia moves into PNG - nuclear fallout from the Pakistan/India war impacting the western reaches of Indonesia sometime in mid to late 1998...
With a little tweaking (probably due to the effect of the nukes themselves) the monsoon winds could just about carry radiation that far and leave both Thailand to the north, and Australia to the south largely untouched. Prevailing winds don't lend themselves naturally to it, but there have been some cyclones and other large storms which have bucked the general trend.
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  #98  
Old 11-28-2018, 05:58 PM
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I hesitate to bring this up, but is that "G'Day…" article part of the official T2K canon?
Yes, absolutely. It's one of the scenarios from Twilight Encounters. It's certainly carrying more weight than any Challenge article I'd think.
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  #99  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:44 PM
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As we know, the Twilight War is part of the backstory for the 2300AD setting. In 2300, Australia is a major player, in part because the nation did not suffer as much destruction as others during the Twilight War.
The point I'm trying to make with this is that it appears that canon very much subscribes to the idea that Australia was damaged but not "bombed back to the stone age" and was able to get back on its feet faster than many other nations and hence become a significant force in the galaxy.

So Australia probably does not get heavily nuked because the idea runs counter to what 2300AD canon has established. Now whether you want to include 2300 into the thought process or not is personal choice and most of us probably don't bother (simply because it takes place another 300 years down the track!)
But given that Twilight: 2000 was developed directly from it, 2300 canon played a big part in the development of Australia's situation in the T2k setting so for us to stick within GDW's ideas, some way needs to be found to knock down the country, but not something that is a TKO like heavy nuke strikes.

Edit: I was of the understanding that those Challenge articles were also considered canon material. I think this has been checked on by someone here, it was certainly discussed here some time ago and if I recall it was generally considered that they are part of canon.

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  #100  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:29 PM
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Edit: I was of the understanding that those Challenge articles were also considered canon material.
I believe they are too and was just using that to reinforce the idea the "G'day" scenario is vital information which can't be just casually cast aside and ignored.

Australia is an interesting situation I think - you can't just throw a few nukes at the place and say "job done". The dismantling of it's capabilities needs to be a more piecemeal thing, lots of nibbles from lots of different directions to achieve the desired effect. Figuring out what those elements could be is proving somewhat challenging.

The list so far includes widespread bushfires, abnormal weather (possibly due to the effects of nukes elsewhere), cessation of international trade, sabotage and raiding on vital infrastructure, fuel shortages, disease, famine, and of course war in Korea and Indonesia / PNG. Once I've sufficiently devastated the country, I can begin building up the picture as it would be in 2000.

As always, more ideas are welcome, as are any comments on why certain things may not work as intended, or not to the extent desired.
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  #101  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:12 PM
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Loss of electricity is going to be a massive impact but considering that we still had many coal-fired power stations and plenty of coal mines that doesn't appear to be a problem.
So we have to interrupt the transport of coal to the stations. The easiest way would be an automobile fuel crisis... ah look at that, right back to were we started!

Like you said, it's tricky. With so much of our infrastructure spread out over a massive continent, what happens in one part of the country often has no impact what-so-ever on other parts of the country. For example, disruptions to the electricity supply in Victoria won't make any impact on electricity for South Aus because our power grids aren't shared by multiple states like in Europe or North America.
But... disruption of electricity to those cities that have fuel refineries, that would be an impact on the rest of the nation. Hmm, coming full circle here...

Many years ago, a mate of mine worked for the State Energy Commission of Western Australia (SECWA was a government body that was later split into two corporations, one controls electricity, the other LPG).
Anyway, in the early 1990s he mentioned one time that the Perth electricity grid relied on four major transformers to distribute power. If one of them broke down the other three would handle things, if two broke down, there would be minor disruptions and some inconvenience to the public. If three went offline, major sections of the city would have to suffer rolling blackouts as they tried to share the power around and electricity would have to be sent from rural power stations via country power lines (which are mostly low capacity lines).

The kicker was that those transformers were made in Europe (France I think) and took approximately one year to build and transport to Australia. They are heavy duty and apparently consist of a lot of solid-state components so they aren't prone to breakdowns.
However, military sabotage would take them offline and probably quite easily.
With that in mind, when my battalion was doing LLOps, part of our training involved protection of power stations and transformers.

A successful sabotage campaign targetting the electrical system in those cities with fuel refineries along with hitting the refineries would be exceedingly difficult to cope with. No electricity and the average city dweller is screwed but no electricity for the refineries means no fuel. No fuel, no transport. No transport, no coal for the power stations, no food deliveries, no resupply for the military etc. etc. etc.
Throw in some bushfires and limited fuel for the fire service, some sabotage of the isolated sections of the railway network to disrupt other goods & services and we have a pretty good start to a Twilight-friendly scenario for a stuffed up Australia
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  #102  
Old 11-28-2018, 09:12 PM
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Fuel I think is the key here. Without fuel the trains don't run. Sure, there's a handful of steam locomotives still in running order, but we're talking a few dozen in total across the entire country, they're really not going to make any impact.
So, no fuel, no trains means no coal being transported even short distances to the electrical generation plants. Whoops, there goes electric trains and most of the public transportation networks in the cities.
No fuel getting out to the farms (which aren't exactly within walking distance of the cities)? Well, how's that harvest going then? What about planting for the following season? Yeah, that's a famine for you right there....
No fuel for aircraft, well fires aren't spotted as quickly, and without electricity, communications, especially via landline isn't happening so even when they are spotted, they can't be reported.
Realistically the only areas that would still have electricity are those with alternate generation capability - Tasmania relies almost entirely on hydro, so unless EMP or other actions renders that inoperable, the lights should stay on. Shame there's not a lot of heavy industry on the island state to take advantage of that, and there's no oil refinery either. Of course with the nearest oil fields in Bass Strait, and the pipelines all heading north it's sort of a moot point anyway. Oh well, that's Tasmanian's walking everywhere, but at least the street lights are still on....
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  #103  
Old 11-29-2018, 07:42 AM
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FYI part of what happens to Australia - and for that matter France - depends on what timeline you are using

V2 indicates that France got hit with several nukes that took out ports and refineries (and actually makes it surprising that they didnt join the war given that - but thats another discussion) and basically says Australia comes out damaged from the war but not nuked heavily

FYI per Marc Miller the Challenge articles may or may not be canon (depended on the author)- he told Raellus and I when we were writing to take them into account and if we wanted to include them we could or we could chose not to - however anything officially released - which includes by the way stuff like City of Angels - has to be seen as canon

he did say if we do include anything from the articles into an official release then it would make that article canon for sure

Also a factor for the G'Day encounter is how bad communications are in Twilight 2000 - maybe the group in Twilight Encounters is telling the truth as far as they know and Australia got hit after they left - keep in mind the Texas module where veterans from Europe dont find out the Mexicans are in Texas until they get home

Last edited by Olefin; 11-29-2018 at 03:04 PM.
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  #104  
Old 11-29-2018, 01:50 PM
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Remember what Saddam's sabotaging of the Kuwaiti oil fields and refineries did to the regional environment? Smoke/particulates, crude oil in the water. It was an environmental disaster. If your refinery sabotage involves fires, make sure to factor their knock-on effects when T2K'ing Australia.

P.S. IMHO, v2.0 is trash (timeline-wise).
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  #105  
Old 11-29-2018, 08:09 PM
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Also a factor for the G'Day encounter is how bad communications are in Twilight 2000 - maybe the group in Twilight Encounters is telling the truth as far as they know and Australia got hit after they left - keep in mind the Texas module where veterans from Europe dont find out the Mexicans are in Texas until they get home
That is certainly a consideration. It may well be that the troopers words lacked context, or they themselves simply didn't know the true state of the country - the SAS are based in the west and the other side of the country is several time zones away after all....
Nevertheless, my intention is to do as much damage as I can conventionally before applying any nukes. Hopefully none will be needed to finish the job so it can remain consistent with "G'day", but use of a few warheads certainly won't break canon either. To my mind though, nuking Australia is the lazy way out. Conventional methods make more logical sense, and should make for a better background story.
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Remember what Saddam's sabotaging of the Kuwaiti oil fields and refineries did to the regional environment? Smoke/particulates, crude oil in the water. It was an environmental disaster. If your refinery sabotage involves fires, make sure to factor their knock-on effects when T2K'ing Australia..
Indeed, although distances in Australia generally make smoke clouds a minor issue - they've usually dissipated to just a smell in the air and a few additional asthma attacks before reaching anywhere of note. It's the knock-on effects over the following weeks and months that will be a problem - bridges and railways fire damaged, displaced people, lack of food after the crops were burnt, etc.

Once I'm done Australia's going to be a basket case, BUT there'll still be loads of opportunities for PCs to participate in rebuilding. Plenty of factories, mines, etc still in decent condition for example, they just need power, fuel, raw materials, manpower and security. My vision is Australia should be well on the way to recovery by about 2010, and in a position to assist it's neighbours within a few years after that.
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  #106  
Old 11-30-2018, 01:14 AM
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That is certainly a consideration. It may well be that the troopers words lacked context, or they themselves simply didn't know the true state of the country - the SAS are based in the west and the other side of the country is several time zones away after all....
Nevertheless, my intention is to do as much damage as I can conventionally before applying any nukes. Hopefully none will be needed to finish the job so it can remain consistent with "G'day", but use of a few warheads certainly won't break canon either. To my mind though, nuking Australia is the lazy way out. Conventional methods make more logical sense, and should make for a better background story.
Without targeting Australia with nuclear armed missiles it would actually be fairly difficult to do much damage to Australia's infrastructure and military capabilities.

Other than landing hit teams of Spetsnaz commandos or their Indonesian equivalents who realistically are not going to do to much before they are found and wiped out, it would be very hard to attack and do that much damage to Australia with bombers, conventional cruise missiles etc because of the geography of the country and its distance from potential enemies.
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Old 11-30-2018, 01:49 AM
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Without targeting Australia with nuclear armed missiles it would actually be fairly difficult to do much damage to Australia's infrastructure and military capabilities.
Not at all actually.
I'll be putting roughly a brigade in Korea where they may just get nuked, and if not there's still a huge number of Soviet/North Korean units to contend with.
Meanwhile, you've got the MASSIVE (by comparison) Indonesian army attacking into PNG with only Australian and perhaps New Zealand troops to stop them (the PNG military is a joke).
Then add in a lack of fuel to transport or evacuate troops, plus the inability of the military to supply those troops and many may die simply because they can't find enough to eat and drink! Outback Australia is NOT a place you want to be stranded in.
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Other than landing hit teams of Spetsnaz commandos or their Indonesian equivalents who realistically are not going to do to much before they are found and wiped out...
Any attack on Australia itself will be simply a diversion and will tie up a huge amount of troops in attempting to secure vital facilities. Also, given the multicultural nature of the population, it's extremely easy for Indonesians, or any nationality for that matter, to simply get lost in the crowd. Most, if not all Indonesians sent to Australia will be in civilian clothing and unless actively engaged in a raid, will have hidden their weapons away. The occasional over reaction of security forces will also contribute to the overall destruction (targeting citizens simply due to ethnicity for example usually has serious unintended consequences).
Active, uniformed Indonesian troops will be very few and far between on the Australian mainland precisely because they'd be easily targeted and quickly wiped out.
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  #108  
Old 11-30-2018, 08:42 AM
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In general, Australia is heavily reliant on road transport. Rail and maritime transport are important but do not reach the number of places that road transport does and in many cases it's because it is not cost effective for anyone to do so.
You don't have to damage the infrastructure to cause major disruptions, you only need to damage the transport industries and in particular, road transport.

Disruption of truck fuel supplies means many hundreds of rural towns will be without basic commodities and within a short time, without enough food. The residents will probably move to the cities for aid for (what they think is) the short term which will just add more strain on the limited ability of transport industries to deliver needed items.
People get hungry, they start to grumble, when their kids get hungry, people get angry. One more problem for the government to try and fix. Interuption of electricity or fuel for a long enough time in Australia, will have a domino effect in a short period of time and because the distances are so vast with such a relatively small population, transport of aid, police, security forces etc. etc. in a timely manner becomes almost impossible.

I believe this is the path that Legbreaker is taking (correct me if I'm wrong Leg).
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:19 PM
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I believe this is the path that Legbreaker is taking (correct me if I'm wrong Leg).
That's pretty much it, yes.
Without petroleum fuels, nothing, NOTHING moves in Australia. People WILL die. Riots, especially in the cities will break out within a week or two.
Not only are the cities and towns reliant on road transport for most of their supplies, the areas those supplies are grown and produced can, and often are, hundreds, even thousands of kilometres away. Even those towns in more rural areas will have food supply problems as in many areas the farms are essentially a monoculture. They may have an absolute flood of wheat for example, but next to nothing else.
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  #110  
Old 11-30-2018, 09:09 PM
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Without petroleum fuels, nothing, NOTHING moves in Australia. People WILL die. Riots, especially in the cities will break out within a week or two.Not only are the cities and towns reliant on road transport for most of their supplies, the areas those supplies are grown and produced can, and often are, hundreds, even thousands of kilometres away. Even those towns in more rural areas will have food supply problems as in many areas the farms are essentially a monoculture. They may have an absolute flood of wheat for example, but next to nothing else.
I think this is generally true of most parts of the First World. I think a lot of modern folks who are privileged enough to live in the First World either don't realize this, or choose to pretend that modern life is not absolutely dependent on fossil fuels and electricity. IMHO, this a very Pollyanna-ish worldview. I am glad that you are not one of those folks.

In the U.S., only 2% of the population is comprised of farm and ranch families. No fuel = no food, and 90+% of any First World nation's population is totally screwed. The destruction of much of the world's fuel and fuel production capabilities during the Twilight War would lead to a massive die off in Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:04 AM
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Not at all actually.
I'll be putting roughly a brigade in Korea where they may just get nuked, and if not there's still a huge number of Soviet/North Korean units to contend with.
Meanwhile, you've got the MASSIVE (by comparison) Indonesian army attacking into PNG with only Australian and perhaps New Zealand troops to stop them (the PNG military is a joke).
Does the US not use nuclear weapons on the massive numbers of Soviet and North Koreans in Korea too? And is Australia nuked or just left intact?

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Then add in a lack of fuel to transport or evacuate troops, plus the inability of the military to supply those troops and many may die simply because they can't find enough to eat and drink! Outback Australia is NOT a place you want to be stranded in.
Would the Australian government not introduce emergency measures in wartime after at least a year of global warfare, and would Indonesia be immune to fuel and transport shortages?

Is it Australian or Indonesian troops you are you are talking about in the outback?

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Any attack on Australia itself will be simply a diversion and will tie up a huge amount of troops in attempting to secure vital facilities.)
Attack by who? Indonesia or the Soviet Union?

What vital facilities? Oil refineries, pipelines, airports, power stations, arms factories? You don't need tens of thousands of troops to secure these facilities.

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Also, given the multicultural nature of the population, it's extremely easy for Indonesians, or any nationality for that matter, to simply get lost in the crowd. Most, if not all Indonesians sent to Australia will be in civilian clothing and unless actively engaged in a raid, will have hidden their weapons away. The occasional over reaction of security forces will also contribute to the overall destruction (targeting citizens simply due to ethnicity for example usually has serious unintended consequences).
Active, uniformed Indonesian troops will be very few and far between on the Australian mainland precisely because they'd be easily targeted and quickly wiped out.
You know Legreaker Australia is hard place to get to by sea, and what about the RAN and possibly other allied ships patrolling the region. I think you are doing your country a disservice by suggesting that the Australian intelligence and policing services and military would not be aware of large numbers of Indonesian entering Australia and not being able to deal with Indonesian fifth columnists running about causing mayhem and then just melting into the general population.

Are Asian-Australians not patriotic to Australia or are they just there to get revenge on Whitey when the times comes? And the government would not mention Indonesian terrorists in news broadcasts and media because of PC policies and other non-Indonesia Australians would not be suspicious if not downright hostile to them?

Also although Australia's big cities are multi-cultured most vital facilities are not located downtown. They are on the outskirts of them or in remoter areas. Australian cities like American cities gets less multi-cultured the further you travel from the downtown core. In the suburbs, smaller towns and rural areas a bunch of creepy Indonesians acting suspiciously are going to stand out like a sore thumb. Also would Australian soldiers not be aware of the security threat or have their hands tied by PC BS when they are aware of an imminent threat from a potentially hostile group in the area.

Also if Australia is not nuked than you have a functional RAAF well armed by the Americans and you also have functional Australian oil infrastructure to fuel it. The RAAF can strike any part of Indonesia and could and destroy or severely disable most of Indonesia's oil refining and electricity production capacity in 24 to 48 hours.
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Old 12-01-2018, 01:08 AM
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Does the US not use nuclear weapons on the massive numbers of Soviet and North Koreans in Korea too? And is Australia nuked or just left intact?
Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. Korea's more Raellus' thing.
I'm still only in the early stages of this project though really and haven't done much in that area beyond assigning perhaps a brigade or so of Australians plus New Zealanders and maybe other nationalities - this was discussed earlier in this thread.
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Would the Australian government not introduce emergency measures in wartime after at least a year of global warfare, and would Indonesia be immune to fuel and transport shortages?
Of course the government would, but by late 1997 they'll be essentially powerless to do anything all that meaningful over a wide area.
As for Indonesia don't worry, I'll be screwing them up nicely as well. After all, I need to create a reason for them to attack into PNG...
Indonesia actually has a small advantage over Australia - they're somewhat less dependent on food distribution and technology. Most islands are almost self sufficient as it is, so a lack of fuel for transport should hurt them too much. That said, they're also on the verge of overpopulation so any event that upsets the status quo is going to hurt them quite badly if they can't get outside help. At this point (and there's plenty more thought to be put into it) I'm thinking radiation from Pakistan/India coupled with volcanic activity, disease, storms, and so forth will decimate at least the western parts of the country forcing the government to look eastward.
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Is it Australian or Indonesian troops you are you are talking about in the outback?
A bit of both really. Indonesian presence will be fairly light though and be more a diversion to keep Australian units occupied and away from PNG.
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Attack by who? Indonesia or the Soviet Union?
Besides the possibility the USSR sent some advisers to Indonesia, I can't imagine why they'd pay much attention to the region. MIGHT find a handful of individuals on the Australian mainland, but they're also more likely to stand out in a crowd than Indonesians.
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What vital facilities? Oil refineries, pipelines, airports, power stations, arms factories? You don't need tens of thousands of troops to secure these facilities.
No, you don't, not if you know where the enemy are and where they intend to attack next.
Also bear in mind the enemy actions will be designed to create the greatest amount of chaos possible. Not all the troops will be needed to guard facilities, many will be assigned to keep the hordes of civilians in check when the food runs out, etc.
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You know Legbreaker Australia is hard place to get to by sea, and what about the RAN and possibly other allied ships patrolling the region. I think you are doing your country a disservice by suggesting that the Australian intelligence and policing services and military would not be aware of large numbers of Indonesian entering Australia and not being able to deal with Indonesian fifth columnists running about causing mayhem and then just melting into the general population.
The ocean is a BIG place and we've only got a limited number of ships and planes. With troops in Korea, some of those will likely be assigned there as well.
I'm not talking about large numbers either. It really doesn't take that many people with explosives to damage, even destroy something like a refinery. As I think I mentioned previously, all it may take is one person pressing the wrong button at the right time to cause damage. Of course they're probably only going to be able to do it once, maybe twice before others figure out there's sabotage being carried out by one of the workers....
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Are Asian-Australians not patriotic to Australia or are they just there to get revenge on Whitey when the times comes? And the government would not mention Indonesian terrorists in news broadcasts and media because of PC policies and other non-Indonesia Australians would not be suspicious if not downright hostile to them?
Some are, some aren't. The actual saboteurs and raiders I envisage being Indonesian soldiers who've infiltrated the country in the months before hostilities kick off. As there's quite a significant percentage of people who've immigrated from south east asia over the last few decades, it will be fairly simple for them to blend in provided they're not walking around with rifles over their shoulders....
There may also be some who've been in the country all their lives who for one reason or another join with the Indonesians, but I really can't see them as being a sizeable number and probably best handled by GM's who want to include a traitor or two in their game.
Censorship will certainly be in effect, but I don't think it's going to matter that much. I don't intend to have the hostilities kick off until late 97, perhaps early 98. By that time I can't imagine much electronic media will be left undamaged due to EMP and ASAT attacks.
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Also although Australia's big cities are multi-cultured most vital facilities are not located downtown. They are on the outskirts of them or in remoter areas. Australian cities like American cities gets less multi-cultured the further you travel from the downtown core. In the suburbs, smaller towns and rural areas a bunch of creepy Indonesians acting suspiciously are going to stand out like a sore thumb. Also would Australian soldiers not be aware of the security threat or have their hands tied by PC BS when they are aware of an imminent threat from a potentially hostile group in the area.
I've spent a number of years living and working in several Australian cities and am intimately familiar with Sydney's industry and demographics in particular. There are areas you don't go into if you're white, even in the outskirts. Even in the more European areas it's still not uncommon to see Asians, Africans, and just about every other ethnicity as well. The presence of a non-white face isn't out of place at all until you head out of the cities completely.
I intend to open the war with a brigade already committed in Korea, and an Indonesian build up in West Papua to cause most of the remaining regular troops to be deployed there. The actual shooting would commence with a bunch of near simultaneous attacks on refineries, power generation, communications and whatever else seems to make sense. Initial response will be police only - the military won't be called upon for days or even weeks.
Even when the military is called upon, with a brigade in Korea, and about the same in PNG, there's not much left at home. Reserve units generally run at around 10-25% strength - an infantry "battalion" might be able to scrape together a company plus support elements, but they're also spread over hundreds of kilometres. It will take time for more recruits to be enlisted, trained and equipped, and all while the attacks continue, and the governments trying to support forces in Korea and PNG.
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Also if Australia is not nuked than you have a functional RAAF well armed by the Americans and you also have functional Australian oil infrastructure to fuel it. The RAAF can strike any part of Indonesia and could and destroy or severely disable most of Indonesia's oil refining and electricity production capacity in 24 to 48 hours.
No.
RAAF by that point will be quite damaged from action in Korea and oil supplies from overseas will have ceased. Yes, there will be attacks made on Indonesian facilities, but the RAAF's strength by that point won't be enough to stop them cold.
Both sides need to still have some capacity for offensive action to fit with canon. Eventually though, perhaps in just 6 months or so, everything will grind to a halt from logistical reasons (just like is said in canon). Troops on both sides will suffer badly when they can't be supplied and potentially more deaths will result from starvation and disease than actual combat!

Anyway, it's still early days with this project and everything's still subject to change. I'm sure during the process I'll find things that make no sense anymore and add, remove, and adjust things.
I can promise I won't publish until I'm 100% CERTAIN it all makes sense and I'm convinced I've done as much background work as I possibly can to make it as believable as it possibly can be.
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  #113  
Old 12-01-2018, 10:26 AM
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Default The Use of Nuclear Weapons on the Korean Peninsula

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Does the US not use nuclear weapons on the massive numbers of Soviet and North Koreans in Korea too? And is Australia nuked or just left intact?
The whole thing only costs $2.99, but I'll give you the answer from my Korean Peninsula Sourcebook for free.

"As Soviet and Allied units clashed in North Korea, the Stavka, responding to the perceived existential threat posed by NATO forces crossing the Soviet frontier in the west, roused the dozing genie of nuclear warfare, unleashing it once again on mankind, first, haltingly in Europe, then, on a massive scale in East Asia. Of all belligerents, China was hit hardest; much of the PLA was vaporized in the first week of the atomic barrage. Under heavy nuclear and conventional attacks, the Northern Chinese Front disintegrated. The headquarters of the Chinese 28th Army was obliterated by a tactical nuclear strike, and the remains of U.S. 2nd ID found themselves on their own, cut off from the rest of 8th Army.

"On 10/21, 'Tropic Lightning' was hit by no less than six tactical nuclear weapons; it was subsequently overrun and annihilated by Soviet mechanized forces- only 1,000 survivors from the 25th ID made it back to Allied lines."

[The above two paragraphs are based on specific v1.0 canonical references. The next two were approved by Marc Miller.]

"Through September and October, U.S. 8th Army countered Soviet tactical nuclear strikes with several of its own, buying some breathing room and inflicting heavy casualties- the Soviet 12th MRD, caught in a bottleneck at a river crossing, was annihilated by a well-placed Lance battlefield nuclear missile.

"In an attempt to end the campaign in one fell swoop, or at least prevent a timely Allied counteroffensive, Stavka authorized the destruction of several strategic targets in the Republic of Korea: Seoul, the capital city, Incheon, a major port close to the Allied main line of resistance, and Kunsan, another west coast port and home to a major USAF airbase (and the only nuclear weapons storage site in the ROK), were all slated for destruction. On November 4th, a single SS-17 Spanker ICBM launched from southern Siberia released four MIRVs high over the Korean Peninsula. 500 kiloton warheads detonated over Seoul, Incheon and Kunsan, wreaking havoc and killing, in total, hundreds of thousands of civilians. Fortunately, the fourth warhead (also targeting Seoul) failed to detonate.

"To impede the arrival of additional reinforcements from the U.S.A. by way of Japan, the east coast ROK port cities of Busan and Ulsan were also targeted for destruction. In the early dawn hours of November 8th, the Echo II class SSGN, K34, surfaced in the Sea of Japan and launched two nuclear-tipped P-1000 Vulkan cruise missiles, one each at Busan and Ulsan. Several minutes later, the 350 kiloton warhead aboard the first P-1000 detonated over Busan, wrecking the port and badly damaging the eastern half of the city. The missile targeting Ulsan suffered a critical engine failure soon after launch and crashed into the sea well short of the Korean coast (the warhead did not explode). A JDF P-3 Orion, on routine ASW patrol over the Sea of Japan, spotted the smoky missile launch signatures on the western horizon and closed at speed to investigate. K34 had difficulty retracting one of its missile launch tubes, delaying its escape. It was attempting to submerge just as the JDF P-3 arrived overhead. The P-3 dropped two Mk. 46 homing torpedoes, both of which tracked and hit the crash-diving K34, sinking it along with all hands.

"The United States responded to the strategic nuclear attacks on South Korea by obliterating the Soviet Union's Pacific port of Vladivostok with a Trident SLBM. As the year wore on, use of nuclear weapons by both superpowers expanded. U.S. military bases in Japan and the Philippines were destroyed; U.S.8th Army was becoming increasingly isolated."

Bergesen, Alf R.
The Korean Peninsula: A Twilight 2000 Series Sourcebook
2nd Edition
Far Future Enterprises, 2018
Watermarked PDF

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...book?src=fp_u5
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Last edited by Raellus; 12-01-2018 at 10:41 AM.
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  #114  
Old 12-01-2018, 11:10 AM
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The whole thing only costs $2.99, but I'll give you the answer from my Korean Peninsula Sourcebook for free.

"As Soviet and Allied units clashed in North Korea, the Stavka, responding to the perceived existential threat posed by NATO forces crossing the Soviet frontier in the west, roused the dozing genie of nuclear warfare, unleashing it once again on mankind, first, haltingly in Europe, then, on a massive scale in East Asia. Of all belligerents, China was hit hardest; much of the PLA was vaporized in the first week of the atomic barrage. Under heavy nuclear and conventional attacks, the Northern Chinese Front disintegrated. The headquarters of the Chinese 28th Army was obliterated by a tactical nuclear strike, and the remains of U.S. 2nd ID found themselves on their own, cut off from the rest of 8th Army.

"On 10/21, 'Tropic Lightning' was hit by no less than six tactical nuclear weapons; it was subsequently overrun and annihilated by Soviet mechanized forces- only 1,000 survivors from the 25th ID made it back to Allied lines."

[The above two paragraphs are based on specific v1.0 canonical references. The next two were approved by Marc Miller.]

"Through September and October, U.S. 8th Army countered Soviet tactical nuclear strikes with several of its own, buying some breathing room and inflicting heavy casualties- the Soviet 12th MRD, caught in a bottleneck at a river crossing, was annihilated by a well-placed Lance battlefield nuclear missile.

"In an attempt to end the campaign in one fell swoop, or at least prevent a timely Allied counteroffensive, Stavka authorized the destruction of several strategic targets in the Republic of Korea: Seoul, the capital city, Incheon, a major port close to the Allied main line of resistance, and Kunsan, another west coast port and home to a major USAF airbase (and the only nuclear weapons storage site in the ROK), were all slated for destruction. On November 4th, a single SS-17 Spanker ICBM launched from southern Siberia released four MIRVs high over the Korean Peninsula. 500 kiloton warheads detonated over Seoul, Incheon and Kunsan, wreaking havoc and killing, in total, hundreds of thousands of civilians. Fortunately, the fourth warhead (also targeting Seoul) failed to detonate.

"To impede the arrival of additional reinforcements from the U.S.A. by way of Japan, the east coast ROK port cities of Busan and Ulsan were also targeted for destruction. In the early dawn hours of November 8th, the Echo II class SSGN, K34, surfaced in the Sea of Japan and launched two nuclear-tipped P-1000 Vulkan cruise missiles, one each at Busan and Ulsan. Several minutes later, the 350 kiloton warhead aboard the first P-1000 detonated over Busan, wrecking the port and badly damaging the eastern half of the city. The missile targeting Ulsan suffered a critical engine failure soon after launch and crashed into the sea well short of the Korean coast (the warhead did not explode). A JDF P-3 Orion, on routine ASW patrol over the Sea of Japan, spotted the smoky missile launch signatures on the western horizon and closed at speed to investigate. K34 had difficulty retracting one of its missile launch tubes, delaying its escape. It was attempting to submerge just as the JDF P-3 arrived overhead. The P-3 dropped two Mk. 46 homing torpedoes, both of which tracked and hit the crash-diving K34, sinking it along with all hands.

"The United States responded to the strategic nuclear attacks on South Korea by obliterating the Soviet Union's Pacific port of Vladivostok with a Trident SLBM. As the year wore on, use of nuclear weapons by both superpowers expanded. U.S. military bases in Japan and the Philippines were destroyed; U.S.8th Army was becoming increasingly isolated."

Bergesen, Alf R.
The Korean Peninsula: A Twilight 2000 Series Sourcebook
2nd Edition
Far Future Enterprises, 2018
Watermarked PDF

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...book?src=fp_u5

Yes Raellus I bought your sourcebook last year. A good read!!

And thanks for confirming that the US retaliated with nuclear weapons in kind against the Soviets in Korea and the Soviet Far East.
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:48 AM
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How can I NOT include this?
Halfway through the book now, and I want to shoot them!
Nothing short of treason.
https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/201...DK7Zv9Fe9TpTeY
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  #116  
Old 12-08-2018, 06:50 AM
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How can I NOT include this?
Halfway through the book now, and I want to shoot them!
Nothing short of treason.
https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/201...DK7Zv9Fe9TpTeY
The scum & vermin who worked the docks pulled the same shit during the Vietnam War. My father (who served there) told me how some Australian units had to locate tools, jerrycans, jacks, towing cables and so on (even bulbs from headlights sometimes) in country at times, because the dock worker scum in Australia had stolen all those items before loading the vehicles onto the ships for transport to Vietnam.
Now, with the unpopularity of the Vietnam War, you could, I suppose, argue that it was a political protest rather than the blatant theft and corruption that it really was.
However, during WW2 when the country itself lived in fear of a Japanese invasion? When there's recorded incidents where their theft caused the death of Allied personal?
That was nothing less than undermining the Allied war effort. Those bastards should have been arrested and tried for treason. Personally, I believe they should have been conscripted because as much as I would have liked to shoot them, it's too damned quick and they didn't deserve a quick, clean end.

Although they're supposed to be under more scrutiny now, the scum still pull the same shit even today albeit at a lesser level. One of my co-workers said some family members moved to Broome for work and had their car transported by ship. When it arrived, the windscreen wipers, the petrol cap and some other items were missing - they weren't missing when they delivered the car to the wharf for loading. This happened some time in the mid-2000s.

Now in terms of what you're proposing Leg, it's an interesting twist and an effective way to tighten the screws on Australia. Particularly as it could very well lead to street fights between wharfie scum and people with relatives serving in the military. With the history of wharfies using violence, intimidation and other criminal means (I'm looking directly at you Painters & Dockers Union) I could easily see it becoming a serious police problem that could even possibly escalate to armed clashes.

Can you tell I have no love for Australian dock workers?
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Old 12-10-2018, 04:44 AM
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What a fun document to fill in......
Defence_Support_Proforma_2017.doc
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