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  #61  
Old 04-08-2017, 04:16 PM
cawest cawest is offline
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if anyone needs info.. I have a copy of jane's Warsaw pact merchant ships recognition handbook from 1987. its not the easiest book to use but it has lots of info.
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  #62  
Old 04-08-2017, 05:26 PM
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One I've kicked around doing a few times was a Key West sourcebook. Urban Guerillas doesn't cover that far down. One idea was that they would declare a Second Conch Republic and drop Seven Mile Bridge to isolate around a dozen islands from the mainland. I haven't done any real research on it, though.
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Old 04-08-2017, 06:43 PM
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One I've kicked around doing a few times was a Key West sourcebook. Urban Guerillas doesn't cover that far down. One idea was that they would declare a Second Conch Republic and drop Seven Mile Bridge to isolate around a dozen islands from the mainland. I haven't done any real research on it, though.
the bridge might have been dropped by a Ship launched missile close to the mainland. think about if the bridge had many breaks in it. how did each of those happened. some groups of keys would be better off than other groups.
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  #64  
Old 04-08-2017, 10:46 PM
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Thats why a book on South Africa would be a good idea - to expand what happened and give those kind of details - the South Africans are mentioned in the East Africa Sourcebook but in a peripheral way - i.e. how they affected East Africa and the US/Kenyan/French/Rwandan forces there - but the actual nitty gritty of how they went thru the Twilight War still needs to be expanded
Do you want to start one Olefin?
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  #65  
Old 04-09-2017, 08:26 AM
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Thats why a book on South Africa would be a good idea - to expand what happened and give those kind of details - the South Africans are mentioned in the East Africa Sourcebook but in a peripheral way - i.e. how they affected East Africa and the US/Kenyan/French/Rwandan forces there - but the actual nitty gritty of how they went thru the Twilight War still needs to be expanded

There are now canon details that can be greatly expanded

The South Africans were attacked by two nuclear strikes by the Soviets in 1997

The South Africans struck back using their limited nuclear capacity against the Soviets and their Allies a few days later

They still have a few nuclear bombs and the US is helping them produce more bombs in return for some military equipment and supplies for AFRICOM

They are US allies against the Soviets but also are staying on friendly terms with the French as well

The South Africans ended apartheid and have given the blacks equal power with them in the government but not one man one vote - meaning its more like a divided government between the two groups

The South Africans invaded and took over choice areas in Zimbabwe and Namibia as part of ending the Great war and are still occupying those areas

The South Africans drove the Cubans out of Angola in 2000 along with UNITA (canon event mentioned in Gateway to the Spanish Main)
I wonder did South Africa in the Twilight 2000 verse ever develop the TTD or Tank Technology Demonstrator prototype main battle tank into a full production model ore it only has the Olifant Mk.1B main battle tank in service.

Also another question would be where until the start of the war sanctions still in place against South Africa.
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  #66  
Old 04-09-2017, 10:57 AM
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Do you want to start one Olefin?

with the coal fields (open pit and tunnel) these will be of a lot of use. http://blog.sa-venues.com/activities...-south-africa/

it breaks down most of these by engine types and number of them.
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  #67  
Old 04-09-2017, 11:14 AM
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I wonder did South Africa in the Twilight 2000 verse ever develop the TTD or Tank Technology Demonstrator prototype main battle tank into a full production model ore it only has the Olifant Mk.1B main battle tank in service.

Also another question would be where until the start of the war sanctions still in place against South Africa.
I'd expect they'd stick with the Olifant Mk.1B. The TTD adds a lot of engine power and has improved fire control, but at the cost of 14 rounds of main gun ammunition, and with no real improvement in armor (other than the front glacis, the rest of the hull was only proof up to 23mm rounds; the turret was the same as the Mk.1B). As a rough guess, using Paul's South African Tanks page, it would be an Oliphant Mk.1B with the Mk.2's HF armor and fire control/stabilization, but with 54 rounds for the GT-7 and a Tr Mov of 140/112 and Com Mov of 32/26.

For my part, I wonder if they'd go on to develop the Rooikat 105. It would be a little less effective, but a much cheaper way to get the same cannon on the battlefield.
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  #68  
Old 04-09-2017, 01:33 PM
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I'd expect they'd stick with the Olifant Mk.1B. The TTD adds a lot of engine power and has improved fire control, but at the cost of 14 rounds of main gun ammunition, and with no real improvement in armor (other than the front glacis, the rest of the hull was only proof up to 23mm rounds; the turret was the same as the Mk.1B). As a rough guess, using Paul's South African Tanks page, it would be an Oliphant Mk.1B with the Mk.2's HF armor and fire control/stabilization, but with 54 rounds for the GT-7 and a Tr Mov of 140/112 and Com Mov of 32/26.

For my part, I wonder if they'd go on to develop the Rooikat 105. It would be a little less effective, but a much cheaper way to get the same cannon on the battlefield.

all of the reports during the Boarder was have the Ratel 90 and Eland Mk7 doing very well and taking out T-34's to take out the new tanks a 105. the UK and others would have a problem getting new (newish) Centurion hulls to SA. maybe they would sell/trade new tanks in low numbers at the start of the war. as the war went on these sources would dry up and maybe dry up fast. ATGM production is something I have not looked into yet. but HE and canister rounds are easier in time and equipment to make. This leads me to think that the Rooikat would be but into production and coming off the line as fast as they could. they might even convert a heavy truck line into turning out the large gun wheeled tanks in larger numbers.
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  #69  
Old 04-09-2017, 01:54 PM
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all of the reports during the Boarder was have the Ratel 90 and Eland Mk7 doing very well and taking out T-34's to take out the new tanks a 105. the UK and others would have a problem getting new (newish) Centurion hulls to SA. maybe they would sell/trade new tanks in low numbers at the start of the war. as the war went on these sources would dry up and maybe dry up fast. ATGM production is something I have not looked into yet. but HE and canister rounds are easier in time and equipment to make. This leads me to think that the Rooikat would be but into production and coming off the line as fast as they could. they might even convert a heavy truck line into turning out the large gun wheeled tanks in larger numbers.
Don't forget the South African 155mm Arty, the G6.. This outranged even NATO cannon in the same caliber and overmatched the Soviet or Chicom 130mm and 152mm easily.
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Old 04-09-2017, 03:16 PM
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all of the reports during the Boarder was have the Ratel 90 and Eland Mk7 doing very well and taking out T-34's to take out the new tanks a 105. the UK and others would have a problem getting new (newish) Centurion hulls to SA. maybe they would sell/trade new tanks in low numbers at the start of the war. as the war went on these sources would dry up and maybe dry up fast. ATGM production is something I have not looked into yet. but HE and canister rounds are easier in time and equipment to make. This leads me to think that the Rooikat would be but into production and coming off the line as fast as they could. they might even convert a heavy truck line into turning out the large gun wheeled tanks in larger numbers.
The Eland had either a 60mm gun-mortar or a 90mm low-velocity cannon. It was a good vehicle, but wouldn't reliably penetrate a T-55, let alone anything newer; the 90mm has around 320mm penetration against RHA and the 60mm only 200mm of penetration at point-blank ranges. The Ratel had either a 20mm autocannon or one of the main armaments from the Eland.

The Eland did carry a pair of SS.11 missiles, with 600mm penetration against RHA, and some Ratel were modified to ZT-3 configuration with the Ingwe ATGM (1,000mm RHA penetration). However, as you said, gun rounds are easier to do than missiles. The Rooikat's 76mm is based on the OTO Melara naval gun (76mm L/62) and is said to be able to penetrate a T-62's glacis at 2 kilometers. The 105mm that was tested was equivalent to the Royal Ordnance L7, and the APDS rounds were considered equal to the British L52, which implies T-62 penetration at 2.5km. It wouldn't quite be up to handling the modified T-72s and T-80s that the USSR built after analyzing Israeli rounds, but it would do well against earlier tanks. One big advantage would be the ability to use any 105mm NATO rounds, so anything they could beg, borrow, barter, or steal would work.
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Old 04-09-2017, 04:07 PM
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Don't forget the South African 155mm Arty, the G6.. This outranged even NATO cannon in the same caliber and overmatched the Soviet or Chicom 130mm and 152mm easily.

and that is one of the reason i'm looking forward to seeing a South Africa book.
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  #72  
Old 04-09-2017, 04:22 PM
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Interestingly, the biggest user of the G6 was/is the UAE. South Africa only bought 43 systems, while the Emirates bought 78 and Oman bought 24.

One variant that might see more use in a Twilight War scenario was the G6 Marksman, with twin 35mm Oerlikons replacing the 155mm for use as an anti-aircraft vehicle. I could see one or two of them accompanying a G6 battery as organic AAA and close-assault protection.
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  #73  
Old 04-09-2017, 04:36 PM
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Interestingly, the biggest user of the G6 was/is the UAE. South Africa only bought 43 systems, while the Emirates bought 78 and Oman bought 24.

One variant that might see more use in a Twilight War scenario was the G6 Marksman, with twin 35mm Oerlikons replacing the 155mm for use as an anti-aircraft vehicle. I could see one or two of them accompanying a G6 battery as organic AAA and close-assault protection.
or the Marksman's turret mounted on a anti pirate boat or river gun boat or a gun truck...

hate for any ship go down near Seal island... air jaws up close.
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:47 PM
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I'd expect they'd stick with the Olifant Mk.1B.
More than likely as it was superior to the Soviet supplied tanks used by other African nations.

Also Centurion hulls were available. In 1990 Britain declared that it held 570 Centurion tanks in storage, although that probably included some Centurions hulls used as engineer, bridging and recovery vehicles. In real life they were scrapped or sold on at the end of the Cold War, but in T2K they were likely retained.

However in 1977 the UN Security Council adopted resolution 418 which imposed a mandatory arms embargo against South Africa, and Britain who abided by it would have not been able to sell arms directly to South Africa. Israel would be an obvious choice to send the Centurions due to their close military relations with South Africa, and the upgrades performed by Israel on its own Centurion tanks. But Britain had also placed an arms embargo on Israel in 1982 due to the Israeli inasion of Lebanon, but British companies like others found way's and means to get around these embargos.

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For my part, I wonder if they'd go on to develop the Rooikat 105. It would be a little less effective, but a much cheaper way to get the same cannon on the battlefield.
Its possible and certainly South Africa favoured wheeled vehicles on the South African terrain, as excluding the Olifant tanks the rest of the South African army's fleet of over 5,000 armoured vehicles were wheeled.
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  #75  
Old 04-10-2017, 06:26 AM
James Langham2 James Langham2 is offline
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There is an Osprey coming out/is out on armour of the SA border war so that might give extra info.
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Old 04-10-2017, 06:36 AM
James Langham2 James Langham2 is offline
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Default centuriuons

Possible sources for Centurions:

Switzerland (who had bought them from SA in the first place!)

Singapore (from INdia and Israel)

Worth noting that Somalia had 30 Centurions in the late 1980s from Kuwait
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:59 AM
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There is an Osprey coming out/is out on armour of the SA border war so that might give extra info.
That is something i will buy if i ever get the change.
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Old 04-10-2017, 12:36 PM
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a new equipment source book. "Improvised Armored Vehicles".


it would have images and stats of all kinds of gun trucks, armored bulldozers, mg to cannon to ATGM armed technicals, river, near coast and deep water pirates. maybe even gun trains.


some ideas could be found from Syria, Kurds, and Africa
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  #79  
Old 04-10-2017, 02:12 PM
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There is an Osprey coming out/is out on armour of the SA border war so that might give extra info.
I need to get that. I have Osprey's South African Special Forces book.

Here is a link to an article about South African operations in Angola in the late 1980's.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a526489.pdf
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Old 04-10-2017, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by James Langham2 View Post
Possible sources for Centurions:

Switzerland (who had bought them from SA in the first place!)

Singapore (from INdia and Israel)

Worth noting that Somalia had 30 Centurions in the late 1980s from Kuwait
I'm not sure they'd need more. South Africa had 224 Olifant Mk.1 (total for both A and B) in service in 1996 in our timeline, along with 28 bridge-laying Olifants. FAPLA had T-54/55 (150) and T-62 (175), while PLAN had T-34 and T-55 that were rolled into the NDF. AFAIK, T-72 didn't reach the area until 1999 (again, in our timeline), and I need convincing that the Soviet Union would send anything other than T-54/55 and T-62 to either FAPLA or PLAN, since that's not a priority theater for them. I also realize I just come up with an argument against the Rooikat 105 I suggested earlier, since the Rooikat 76 is capable of defeating all FAPLA or PLAN armor at 2 kilometers; the 105 is unnecessary unless heavier armor is deployed.

If they do buy more, Israeli Sho't Kal might be another source. They were one of the inspirations for the Olifant, and would fit in well. Israel had 390 of them in the mid-80s but started converting them to HAPCs as the Merkavas entered service, so I'm not sure how many would still be available (although the HAPCs could be converted back by Denel).
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Old 04-10-2017, 03:03 PM
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I'm not sure they'd need more. South Africa had 224 Olifant Mk.1 (total for both A and B) in service in 1996 in our timeline, along with 28 bridge-laying Olifants. FAPLA had T-54/55 (150) and T-62 (175), while PLAN had T-34 and T-55 that were rolled into the NDF. AFAIK, T-72 didn't reach the area until 1999 (again, in our timeline), and I need convincing that the Soviet Union would send anything other than T-54/55 and T-62 to either FAPLA or PLAN, since that's not a priority theater for them. I also realize I just come up with an argument against the Rooikat 105 I suggested earlier, since the Rooikat 76 is capable of defeating all FAPLA or PLAN armor at 2 kilometers; the 105 is unnecessary unless heavier armor is deployed.

If they do buy more, Israeli Sho't Kal might be another source. They were one of the inspirations for the Olifant, and would fit in well. Israel had 390 of them in the mid-80s but started converting them to HAPCs as the Merkavas entered service, so I'm not sure how many would still be available (although the HAPCs could be converted back by Denel).
they might send T-72 to "high profile" units, maybe a company or so not T80's or newer. as the war went on resupply, i think would go all the down to t34's, they had them already and parts and knowledge was there.

why 105 vs 76mm...

the 76 would work against T62, but not if it they were fit with ERA. when planning you have to think 10 years in advance of your data. The SA might be getting a "warning" about "new" tanks coming into there local area.."soon". that would drive making a local product that could ambush kill T-72/T64.

how about having two lines. one making a lot more 76mm and a smaller one making a few 105mm turrets.

also the 76mm is not a "nato" round. getting 105mm Nato type rounds would be alot cheaper and would simplify working with Olifants with the L7's. i don't think the 76mm has a canister round.
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Old 04-10-2017, 03:14 PM
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FAPLA had T-54/55 (150) and T-62 (175), while PLAN had T-34 and T-55 that were rolled into the NDF. AFAIK, T-72 didn't reach the area until 1999 (again, in our timeline)
Military Balance lists Angola as having 300 T-54/T-55s in early 1990s, along with the T-62s and T-34s.

UNITA also had about 70 captured T-54/T-55 and some T-34s. Pro-Soviet Mozambique also had 80 T-54/T-55s.
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Old 04-10-2017, 03:45 PM
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a new equipment source book. "Improvised Armored Vehicles".


it would have images and stats of all kinds of gun trucks, armored bulldozers, mg to cannon to ATGM armed technicals, river, near coast and deep water pirates. maybe even gun trains.


some ideas could be found from Syria, Kurds, and Africa

there is enough variety in Africa to do a sole "Wild Tales of AFRICOM" source book with just Zimbabwe, Angola, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, and South Africa. Keeping with locally produced or technicals can give you a 200 page source book pretty quick.

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Old 04-10-2017, 04:17 PM
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there is enough variety in Africa to do a sole "Wild Tales of AFRICOM" source book with just Zimbabwe, Angola, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, and South Africa. Keeping with locally produced or technicals can give you a 200 page source book pretty quick.

Attachment 3899

I know, an't that cool. and i forgot to put aircraft on the list.
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Old 04-10-2017, 06:06 PM
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Thats why I said the GM's are free to improvise with Technicals instead of trying to make a specific "this is a Somali Technical" - if you want an idea of just how outlandish a gun truck or Technical can be look at what the Libyan resistance came up with when they were fighting a few years ago against the Libyan Army - I think the shorter list would be what can't you put on an AWD truck or jeep than what you can

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"
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Old 04-10-2017, 06:27 PM
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Thats why I said the GM's are free to improvise with Technicals instead of trying to make a specific "this is a Somali Technical" - if you want an idea of just how outlandish a gun truck or Technical can be look at what the Libyan resistance came up with when they were fighting a few years ago against the Libyan Army - I think the shorter list would be what can't you put on an AWD truck or jeep than what you can

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"

ISIS leads the way. Scan towards the bottom for a T-55 VBIED loaded with probably 3-5 ton of explosives and detonated. OryxBlog


Title is yours. I would never have a use for it. My T2K is either yoorup or murica based modules.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:19 PM
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Thats why I said the GM's are free to improvise with Technicals instead of trying to make a specific "this is a Somali Technical" - if you want an idea of just how outlandish a gun truck or Technical can be look at what the Libyan resistance came up with when they were fighting a few years ago against the Libyan Army - I think the shorter list would be what can't you put on an AWD truck or jeep than what you can

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"
most GM's are hard pressed as it is. I know when I had to be one, I would steal what ever I could for filler and with these types of weapons, it would take some work to get ideas of what had been used in real life. because if you have looked at some of them... let just say that someone must have been on LSD when they came up with the idea.
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:23 PM
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they might send T-72 to "high profile" units, maybe a company or so not T80's or newer. as the war went on resupply, i think would go all the down to t34's, they had them already and parts and knowledge was there.

why 105 vs 76mm...

the 76 would work against T62, but not if it they were fit with ERA. when planning you have to think 10 years in advance of your data. The SA might be getting a "warning" about "new" tanks coming into there local area.."soon". that would drive making a local product that could ambush kill T-72/T64.

how about having two lines. one making a lot more 76mm and a smaller one making a few 105mm turrets.

also the 76mm is not a "nato" round. getting 105mm Nato type rounds would be alot cheaper and would simplify working with Olifants with the L7's. i don't think the 76mm has a canister round.
South Africa was working on a canister round for the 76mm back around 2010 or so. I haven't heard whether it got deployed along with the existing HE and APFSDS. It's not NATO-standard, but it's heavily used - the only major NATO fleet that doesn't use it is the UK.

For T-62s with ERA, they're rare. When the USSR broke up, only 113 of them existed (using Kontakt-1). I haven't seen any claims that type of ERA was effective against KE rounds (unlike Kontakt-5, which added ~250mm RHA equivalent to the armor thickness).
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:47 PM
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Thats why I said the GM's are free to improvise with Technicals instead of trying to make a specific "this is a Somali Technical" - if you want an idea of just how outlandish a gun truck or Technical can be look at what the Libyan resistance came up with when they were fighting a few years ago against the Libyan Army - I think the shorter list would be what can't you put on an AWD truck or jeep than what you can

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"
To be fair to the nations listed "technicals" do have a local flavor. A Somali built technical is typically a Range Rover or Toyota Hilux sporting one of four weapon systems (typically, there are more) DsHK, KPV, Recoilless Rifle (Soviet or U.S.), or a Soviet 23mm ZPU 23-1 or 23-2. Eritrea is DsHKs or PK on civvie cars with the roof cut off. Angola, may find a turretless T-55 with multiple MGs welded to cover sectors.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:43 AM
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Do not know if this is the right place for it but have created a list of the South African Navy before the outbreak of the war. Not mention are the tugs in use with the South African Navy.

Good page to see more about the South African navy is called: "The South African Navy during the years of conflict in Southern Africa 1966-1989"

South African Navy

Submarines

Daphne class-submarines

S97 SAS Maria van Riebeeck (S97).
S98 SAS Emily Hobhouse(S98).
S99 SAS Johanna van der Merwe (S99).

Fast attack craft

General-class-class strike craft

General-class-class strike craft in service with the South African Navy are modified Sa'ar 4.5 class fast attack craft, three where build to replace the three President-class Type 12 frigates who where decommissioned in the early 1990s.

SAS de Wet (P1570)
SAS Piet Joubert (P1571)
SAS Jan Kemp (P1572)

Warrior-class strike craft

The Warrior-class strike craft in service with the South African Navy are modified Sa'ar 4 (Reshef) class fast attack craft.

SAS Jan Smuts (P1561)
SAS P.W. Botha (P1562)
SAS Frederic Creswell (P1563)
SAS Jim Fouché (P1564)
SAS Frans Erasmus (P1565)
SAS Oswald Pirow (P1566)
SAS Hendrik Mentz (P1567)
SAS Kobie Coetsee (P1568)
SAS Magnus Malan (P1569)

Depot/replenishment ships

SAS Tafelberg
SAS Drakensberg

Mine counter measures vessels

River-class mine counter measures vessels

SAS Umkomaas
SAS Umhloti
SAS Umgeni
SAS Umzimkulu

Ton-class minesweepers

SAS Windhoek
SAS East London
SAS Kimberley
SAS Walvisbaai

Patrol boat

Namacurra-class harbour patrol boat

Pennant Numbers Y1501 - Y1530
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