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Old 03-14-2010, 09:04 PM
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Default US Navy & USMC Aviation orbat

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chico20854

US Navy & USMC Aviation orbat

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Well, after a furious week of typing and researching, I've put together a orbat of the US Navy and Marine Corps aviation units during the war.

It's generally based on the plans as they existed in September 1989, with some (somewhat over the top) fantasy units thrown in to fit my twisted view of the Naval War.

Please let me know what your thoughts are!

Enjoy!

(It's a excel spreadsheet zipped).

-Chico
Attached Files US Navy & Marine Avn 1996.zip (27.4 KB, 59 views)


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Last edited by chico20854 : 07-08-2006 at 10:00 AM. Reason: (updated attachment to include abbreviations)


chico20854





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shrike6

Impressive chico, very impressive. Good work
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shrike6





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chico20854

Forgot to include the abbreviations:

CVW Carrier Air Wing
HC Helicopter Combat Support Squadron
HCS Helicopter Combat Search and Rescue/Special Warfare Support Squadron
HM Helicopter Mine Countermeasures Squadron
HMA (Marine) Attack Helicopter Squadron
HMLA (Marine) Attack/Light Helicopter Squadron
HMH (Marine) Heavy Helicopter Squadron
HML (Marine) Light Helicopter Squadron
HMM (Marine) Medium Helicopter Squadron
HS Helicopter Anti Submarine Squadron
HSL Light Helicopter Anti Submarine Squadron
MAG Marine Aircraft Group
MAW Marine Aircraft Wing
VA Attack Squadron
VAQ Tactical Electronic Warfare Squadron
VAW Carrier Airborne Early Warning Squadron
VC Fleet Composite Squadron
VF Fighter Squadron
VFA Strike-Fighter Squadron
VMA (Marine) Attack Squadron
VMA (AW) (Marine) Attack Squadron (All-Weather)
VMAQ (Marine) Electronic Warfare Squadron
VMFA (Marine) Fighter-Attack Squadron
VMGR (Marine) Refueller-Transport Squadron
VMO (Marine) Observation Squadron
VP Patrol Squadron
VPU Special Projects Patrol Squadron
VQ Fleet Air Reconnaissance Squadron
VR Fleet Logistics Support Squadron
VRC Fleet Logistics (Carrier Onboard Delivery) Squadron
VS Air Anti Submarine Squadron
VT Training Squadron
VX Air Test and Evaluation Squadron
VXE Antarctic Development Squadron
VXN Oceanographic Development Squadron


chico20854





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Matt Wiser

Chico, can you post a PDF version? Not everyone has excel...


Matt Wiser





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chico20854

Attached is a poor-fair quality PDF conversion. I got it from 72 to 33 pages, but as a spreadsheet it only makes sense printed out with the pages lined up...

I don't generally have a pdf publishing capability. I should check ebay for a used older copy of acrobat.

If you want, you can try the free excel viewer software at:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c8378bf4-996c-4569-b547-75edbd03aaf0&displaylang=EN

-Chico
Attached Files US Navy and Marine Aviation T2k 1996.zip (91.1 KB, 29 views)


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Last edited by chico20854 : 07-09-2006 at 07:49 PM. Reason: (had to rejiggle file so it would attach...)


chico20854





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Stilleto69

Great work Chico, I really like the 1st and only A-12 squadron being aboard the Enterprise. Keep up the good work.


Stilleto69





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chico20854

Thanks Stilleto!

The Naval Aviation News ran a big "introduction to the A-12" promotional article in late 1990, saying how great it would be. In there they mentioned that the first oeprational squadron would be on the Enterprise, and had a chart of the order of assignment. So I didn't make it up, just a lucky find on the documentation...

In an exercise in irony, one or two issues later they had a short blurb in the news section about the whole A-12 program being cancelled...

I'll have to check Paul's site and see if he has the A-12!


chico20854





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pmulcahy
Jeez I'm Tired...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chico20854
I'll have to check Paul's site and see if he has the A-12!



I actually don't; it's one of those aircraft I always wanted to do, but never could find out enough information about to even extrapolate figures for it. If you have stats, Chico, I'd love to see them!
__________________
It's the end of the world as we know it... -- REM


pmulcahy


Visit pmulcahy's homepage!



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Matt Wiser

Chico: A few bumps on your ORBAT:

1) The A-6Es should be Fs. I've got A-6Fs in several VA squadrons in my
naval and RDF air OBs. One can logically assume that the A-12 program
might not have been axed, but delayed until the various sqabbles and
technical bugs were worked out. Perhaps VA-95 was to eval the bird before a decision on full-rate production? (Say, due to Congressional pressure?)

2) Your CVW-10 list has VA-174. -174 was the East Coast RAG (Replacement Air Group-Naval jargon for training squadron) for the A-7E. They were disbanded when the A-7s went away and just now IRL were reactivated to be the East Coast RAG for the F/A-18E/F. I have a reactivated VFA-163
(the Saints) as the second Hornet squadron in CVW-10.

3) Your VA squadrons listed as flying the F/A-18 should be VFA. And VAQ-33 and -34 never flew the EA-6B as electronic aggressors; VAQ-35 did, though.

4) VA-205 was the Reserve A-6E squadron on the East Coast for CVWR-20.

5) By 1995 all F-14 A/B squadrons were to be D equipped. 400 As and Bs were to be remanufactured to D standard by Grummann, and 127 new Ds built.


Matt Wiser





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chico20854

Thanks Matt!

Jason and I were discussing the A-6F & A-12 issue last night. We agreed it was unlikely that Congress would fund both projects - an expensive upgrade & new construction for the A-6 while simultaneously developing the A-12 to replace it. Having to choose between the A-6Fs and the A-12, we thought the A-6F was the better choice... easier integration into the fleet and faster production, more advanced aircraft for T2k . The mismanagement of the A-12 program also meant the one operational squadron plus one readiness squadron is probably optimistic.

Thanks for the picks on the VFA's, I just forgot to clean those up. The other ones I also was sloppy on. The F-14D I only listed those squadrons that I could get confirmation as they transitioned, as with which model of the F/A-18 (if it says A, it might have been upgraded & I didn't catch it or the squadron was inactivated prior to an upgrade. But leaving A's in the fleet allows more C's to replace losses and more reservists to be useful with their knowledge of older systems).

Paul, I see what you mean about the paucity of sources. I couldn't find much either. I wish I had a copy of Jane's from 89 or so...


chico20854





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pmulcahy
Jeez I'm Tired...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chico20854
Paul, I see what you mean about the paucity of sources. I couldn't find much either. I wish I had a copy of Jane's from 89 or so...



I know where there is one -- in the library over at Ft. Sam Houston. Unfortunately, between being short on time for such a trip and the price of gas, I just haven't been able to make it over there in many months. (San Antonio, unfortunately, is a rather spread-out city; in addition, there is so much growth and road construction here that the route you took yesterday to get somewhere might not be the same route you're able to take today! And I'm almost exactly on the other side of the city from Ft. Sam Houston...)
__________________
It's the end of the world as we know it... -- REM


pmulcahy


Visit pmulcahy's homepage!



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James1978

As long as fantasy units are in play, does anyone know when the P-7 was scheduled to enter service had it not been cancelled?

Out of curiousity, what were the projected Cold War retirement dates for the CVs? Also, how long was Lexington scheduled to stay in service and was a full-time training carrier planned to replace her? I recall that JFK had that job as a training/reserve carrier for a while during the 90s.


James1978





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Matt Wiser

Ships and Aircraft of the U.S. Fleet says between 1994 and 2001. A 125 aircraft buy was planned. In adddition, the West Germans selected the P-7
as their Atlantic replacement (now being replaced IRL by surplus Dutch P-3s).
It's likely that several P-3 operators would have bought the P-7 as well (Japan, Australia, NZ, Norway, Dutch, maybe Canada to replace their CP-140s, which are P-3 airframes with S-3 avionics). First prototypes were due
in 1992, with either VP-30 or VP-31 (the two RAG squadrons) due in 1994.
Fleet service was likely in 1996.


Matt Wiser





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Matt Wiser

James, Lexington was due to retire in 1991 anyway; drawdown or not. Forrestal was intended to take over as the full-time training carrier (and was actually designated AVT-59), but it was decided to retire her as well in '92.
JFK did handle training duties in betweeen deployments for a while, but that ended and now all LANTFLT carriers rotate to the Gulf of Mexico to handle training responsiblities.


Matt Wiser





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boogiedowndonovan

wow, awesome.

speaking of fantasy units, what about the MV-22 Osprey?

someone on another T2k list said, "war happens to make things (equipment) magically appear"

or something like that anyways...

I seem to recall Matt Wiser's excellent RDF orbat had one squadron of Ospreys in the PG.


boogiedowndonovan





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chico20854

HMM-263 is scheduled to be the first Osprey squadron. Its in the notes section of the file, another one I failed to fix in the aircraft column. It's probably realistically in the same category as the A-12, just entering (troubled) service as the war begins and not ever fielded in large numbers. (Think Panther in 1943... potential once the bugs get worked out).

Lexington and Oriskany, along with Midway and Coral Sea, have scratch air groups and in the Twilight war were only reactivated after the outbreak of hostilities in Germany. They were intended for lower-threat environments due to their lack of fixed wing ASW aircraft and paucity of fighter cover (and fixed wing AEW for the Essex-class). The Bennington and Hancock were in the yard being reactivated when the TDM stopped all further work. (Reactivation was a slow process... they had been partially stripped over the years to support Lexington and reactivate it and Oriskany. Plus repairing battle damage was considered more important, as the aircraft were scarce anyhow. Parts had to be pulled off of Intrepid and Yorktown). Lexington's big achievement during the war was helping in the search for and sinking of a Soviet Q-ship that was raiding the tanker trade from Venezuela.

The P-7 was cancelled July 1990 IRL. A lot of the avionics were also to be put into existing P-3Cs as Update 4. P-7 fielding was, according to a March 1990 plan, to start at Moffett Field, followed by Barber's Point and Jacksonville, with final fielding to the reserves scheduled by 2010(!).

Paul, I remembered that there is a library 6 floors below my office. (One of the perks of government!) They have all the Jane's Fighting ships from 1940-1997 or so, I've never checked for the aircraft. Maybe a long lunch tomorrow!

I'll try to post a cleaned-up version after lunch...

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Last edited by chico20854 : 07-11-2006 at 11:30 PM.


chico20854





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Matt Wiser

Indeed I did; the original Osprey IOC was supposed to be 1995 for the USMC's first Osprey squadron. The AF's version was originally supposed to be in 1997. Originally, the Army was also involved in the Osprey program-sort of as an in-between the UH-60 and CH-47. They dropped out in 1990 IIRC.
And the Navy still has an unfulfilled requirement for a CSAR version along with an SV-22 ASW variant.
The carrier replacement schedule has gone pretty much the way it was
planned originally, just that some ships (America, Constellation, and the Forrestals) have been retired early. America was supposed to get a SLEP overhaul, but never did. Connie, though, was just about due for her retirement anyway. And the shipbuilding schedule for new carriers has slipped; Pre-1990 it was one new carrier each year.


Matt Wiser





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Matt Wiser

Hancock was scrapped in the early '80s and Bennington in the early '90s.
Hornet and Oriskany were stricken in 1989 but still laid up and one problem with Lexington: she had only one working catapult and there were serious problems with her arrester gear. That was the reason for her retirement and prompt donation to Corpus Christi, TX as a museum ship.


Matt Wiser





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chico20854

Oops... meant Hornet rather than Hancock.
They were stricken in 1989 but lasted a few more years before actually going to the breakers. It's a stretch to include them...


chico20854





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boogiedowndonovan

[QUOTE=chico20854]HMM-263 is scheduled to be the first Osprey squadron. Its in the notes section of the file, another one I failed to fix in the aircraft column. It's probably realistically in the same category as the A-12, just entering (troubled) service as the war begins and not ever fielded in large numbers. (Think Panther in 1943... potential once the bugs get worked out).

Hey Chico, yeah I didn't see it listed in the aircraft column. But I agree with your and Matt's assesment that it wouldn't be fielded in large numbers when war begins. Good work!


boogiedowndonovan





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Matt Wiser

If you're in the SF Bay Area, Hornet is a museum ship at the old NAS Alameda;and if you're scuba qualified for deep diving, you can visit Oriskany off of Pensacola-she was scuttled a couple of months ago to serve as an artifical reef. Intrepid's museum is well known, but she'll be taken into dry dock soon for hull inspection, any needed repairs, and painting. (from the NY Times)


Matt Wiser





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chico20854

Osprey in Service

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from another board, sounds like a USMC press release:

New Osprey Squadron Tilts Toward Future


(Source: US Marine Corps; issued June 27, 2006)

MARINE CORPS AIR STATION NEW RIVER, N.C. --- Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 266 cased their colors and stood down during a ceremony June 16 on the flightline.

The ceremony represented the beginning of the squadron’s transition to the new MV-22 “Osprey,” and “signifies the end of CH-46E operations for the squadron,” said U.S. Marine Lt. Col. Joseph E. George, commanding officer for Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 266. “It’s a great day for the Marine Corps and Marine Corps aviation,” he added.

Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 266 will be renamed Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 266, and will stand back up next year as the third operational “Osprey” squadron in the Marine Corps, writing a new chapter in aviation history, said George, who received a Bronze Star Medal during the ceremony for his work during Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Currently all Marine Corps “Osprey” squadrons are located on Marine Corps Air Station New River.

The Station houses two testing and training squadrons along with the first operational “Osprey” squadron, VMM-263. Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron-162 is scheduled to stand up in September as the second operational squadron.

The switch to MV-22’s will give the squadron a whole new level of capabilities, said George, who recently received his 3,000 flight hours pin.

Traveling almost twice as fast and carrying 10 more Marines than the aging “Sea Knight,” the “Osprey” will replace all medium lift helicopters in the Marine Corps. The MV-22 also has the ability to refuel in flight, making it self-deployable.

The pilots of Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 266 will head to Marine Medium Tiltrotor Training Squadron-204 and begin a six-month school, learning how to fly the revolutionary aircraft.

“It’s two different theories of flight,” said U.S. Marine Maj. Mike Duncan, a pilot with Marine Medium Helicopter Squadron 266 moving to the new machine. “You have aspects of both fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft.”

Duncan said he is excited about moving to the MV-22, and said the Marine Corps will benefit from the increased long range capability.

The squadron ended its journey on a positive note, returning all of its Marines and sailors safely from its most recent deployment to Iraq, said George.

He said he expects the squadron to continue its proud tradition when it re-emerges as an “Osprey” squadron and prepares for another deployment, possibly in 2008.


chico20854





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TiggerCCW UK

The Osprey is probably the aircraft I'm most excited about seeing at Fairford on Saturday. I'll try and bring back plenty of piccies of it.
__________________
Its 106 miles to friendly lines, we've a full tank of meth, half a box of AP ammo, its dark and we're wearing 1st generation NVG's - hit it!


TiggerCCW UK





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Law0369

hope that was a joke trigger because i would note take to kindly to that. if one goes down that means brothers of mine go down so please address jokes as "haah or hey that was a joke" because if you would have said that in front of me i would have put you in the critical care unit. had friends go down on one in the desert in 2000 training ,so no its not a funny comment to me.
__________________
Treat everyone you meet with kindnees ; But always have a plan to kill them


Law0369





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Jason Weiser
Roadkill on the information superhighway

Law,
In his defense, I think he meant "piccies" as pictures...not "pieces" as you took it. I don't think Tigger would joke about something like that.
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Jason Weiser





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Law0369

If he meant picture and my lingo for europe is not up to standards then i will say sorry now . and if he wants a picture of one he should have asked me i have them of me using one in training to lift fast attack vehicles in 2003 getting ready for iraq. if he meant pieces than my comments stay the same.
__________________
Treat everyone you meet with kindnees ; But always have a plan to kill them


Law0369





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boogiedowndonovan

Relax Law,

Tigger is saying he's going to take pictures of the Osprey and bring them back to share with all of us. I'm not sure how he'd be able to bring back pieces, but that would be quite interesting.

"piccies" is what we would call "pics" or pictures. My significant other is Australian, she talks in that funky slang all the time.


boogiedowndonovan





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TiggerCCW UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Law0369
If he meant picture and my lingo for europe is not up to standards then i will say sorry now . and if he wants a picture of one he should have asked me i have them of me using one in training to lift fast attack vehicles in 2003 getting ready for iraq. if he meant pieces than my comments stay the same.



Law I'm quite upset that you'd think I'm that sick. I'll try and get a UK/US English dictionary put together for you to stop this kind of confusion For the record, I have something of an affinity for your feelings for USMC - I spent about ten years working with Lima Coy 42 Cdo as a baby boot and instructor - regs wouldn't touch me because I'm asthmatic. I would not joke about the deaths, training or otherwise, of any member of the forces of any country, but especially not marines. There have been too many people killed and maimed over the last 37 years here in NI for me to find that kind of thing funny.

Thanks for the offer of the picture of the Osprey, I'd be very keen to see it, but I'm definitely looking forward to seeing it in the flesh, so to speak.

Jason, Boogie, thanks for having my back!
__________________
Its 106 miles to friendly lines, we've a full tank of meth, half a box of AP ammo, its dark and we're wearing 1st generation NVG's - hit it!


TiggerCCW UK





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Law0369

like i said i got the lingo wrong just defending my brothers ... picture will be sent to kc so he can get it on here. i dont know how thanks for the clear up.
__________________
Treat everyone you meet with kindnees ; But always have a plan to kill them


Law0369





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TiggerCCW UK

No sweat mate, like I said, they're my corps brothers too. Per Mare Per Terram.
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