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Old 08-29-2017, 07:25 AM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Default Prime Base structure

I've been looking deeper into the tower structures in Prime Base. These are the same shape as cooling towers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooling_tower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperboloid_structure

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Island_disaster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoyimyyekB8

This all seems to indicate that this type of structure is particularly poorly suited for the needs of Prime Base.

First they are difficult to construct and require specialist engineering and labor as well as equipment. This means they would be expensive to build and need a lot of specialist to

From what I can determine these structures would respond poorly to asymmetrical stresses on the floors, as the floors would be connected to the cylinder walls which would bear the load. I can't find a structure of this type that is loaded with intermediate floors. It seems this type if structure is capable of bearing a load on the top that pushed downwards but not the type of load that would be generated by load bearing floors, such as proposed in the canon design.

The use of giant towers also requires a giant space. This is even more true since all three are in the same cavern. I don't recall the exact size of the cavern but it must be around the size of a football stadium to hold all three cylinders. Such a huge space presents all sorts of issues in construction, debris removal, security, safety after construction and probably other things as well. By getting away from the vertical towers this makes a lot of other options available.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:45 PM
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The use of giant towers also requires a giant space. This is even more true since all three are in the same cavern. I don't recall the exact size of the cavern but it must be around the size of a football stadium to hold all three cylinders. Such a huge space presents all sorts of issues in construction, debris removal, security, safety after construction and probably other things as well. By getting away from the vertical towers this makes a lot of other options available.
cavern? There just excavated out of the ridge under the guise of a failed mining project. There isn't a cavern. The only cave is the goofy tunnel for the helo that is a total fail in thought and execution.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:04 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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It all boils down to the three tower setup simply is not feasible.

Okay, now what do we do?

We have an entire ridge to play with!

Enter Morrow Mining, a subsidiary of Morrow Industries Incorporated. MM has secured options to conduct preliminary survey work in Nevada, Utah, Arizona and Colorado with the intent of searching for deposits of copper, nickel, lead, silver, gold and uranium in the four state region.

In Nevada, the ridge north of White Rock Canyon is identified as a prime site for a copper mine, showcasing Morrow Mining`s concern for the environment, the decision is made to sink several shafts into the ridge instead of a more traditional pit mine.

For a twenty year period, the Soldier Meadow Mine has turned a steady profit for MM until the veins ran out in 1978. Following the removal of the last of the copper ore, the mine shafts were cleared of all equipment and filled in with crushed rock with exterior be carefully landscaped back to its original appearance.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:50 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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With the cover story of the Soldier Meadow Mine, the Project set about the construction of Prime Base.

The mine itself was buried at the northeastern point of the ridge (were the Mission Complex is placed on the Prime base Module map). There is no direct connection between the mine and Prime Base (they are separated by over 500 feet of untouched rock).

Prime base consists of three three-mile long tunnels, placed one above the over (separated by 50 feet of rock/reinforced concrete) with the upper tunnel some 200 feet below the surface of the ridge. These tunnels have short tunnels running to the left and right of the main tunnel, leading to rectangular "warehouses".

Tunnel One (uppermost) is the munitions tunnel with the northern end dedicated to munitions and the southern end to bulk weapons storage. There are two small tunnels running towards the surface. The first leads to a Weather Exposure Module and the second to a Electronics Exposure Module.

The Weather EM is hidden underneath blast doors on the top of the 5,138 foot peak. Once activated, a variety of monitoring equipment can be raised and lowered as necessary.

The Electronics EM is located under a second set of blast doors on the top of the 5,177 foot peak. Located here is an aerial search radar, and several antennas for monitoring AM/FM bands as well as satellite dishes.

Tunnel Two (middle) is bulk equipment and vehicle storage.

Tunnel Three (lower) is bulk material storage for the workshops of Prime Base.

At the southern end of the ridge (the original Prime Base location) are eight tunnels, each running some 800 yards in length and some 300 yards in width with 20 foot ceilings. and stacked one above the other.

Tunnel A and B house Operations, here are the personnel & accounting offices; mission and branch operations offices; communications, administration, the technical library and briefing rooms.

Tunnels C, D, and E house the personnel quarters, civic center, library, recreation and exercise areas and the base school.

Tunnel F houses the base hospital and medical supply storage areas.

Tunnel G and H house the research laboratories, base arsenal, laundry, and the power, sewage, fresh water supply and air circulation equipment.

Leading from Tunnels G and H is another tunnel running along the "spine" of the base for about a mile. This is the Workshop Tunnel, here are the Base Farms, the distillation and brewing shop, the biology lab, the chemical research lab, and the physics research lab, all located at intervals on the northern side of the tunnel.

Along the southern side of the tunnel are the admin office, woodworking shop, three machine shops, two forge rooms, the mechanical engineering and maintenance shop and the print shop. At the far end of the tunnel is the archives storage rooms, a series of six, heavily secured rooms.

You will note that there are no aviation facilities within the base, to the south of the ridge is a fairly level plateau that is dedicated to an air strip. dug into the ridge are a series of boltholes that contain four Lockheed C-130 Hercules, four Boeing CH-47 Chinooks, eight UH-1N helicopters and four OV-10D Broncos.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:58 AM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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cavern? There just excavated out of the ridge under the guise of a failed mining project. There isn't a cavern. The only cave is the goofy tunnel for the helo that is a total fail in thought and execution.
A cavern does not have to be a natural formation

cav·ern
ˈkavərn/Submit
noun
plural noun: caverns
a cave, or a chamber in a cave, typically a large one.
synonyms: large cave, grotto, underground chamber/gallery, vault
"the crude stone steps led down to a dank and cold cavern"
used in similes and comparisons to refer to a vast, dark space.
"the dark cavern of the main performance hall"
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Old 09-02-2017, 12:32 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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With the cover story of the Soldier Meadow Mine, the Project set about the construction of Prime Base.

The mine itself was buried at the northeastern point of the ridge (were the Mission Complex is placed on the Prime base Module map). There is no direct connection between the mine and Prime Base (they are separated by over 500 feet of untouched rock).

Prime base consists of three three-mile long tunnels, placed one above the over (separated by 50 feet of rock/reinforced concrete) with the upper tunnel some 200 feet below the surface of the ridge. These tunnels have short tunnels running to the left and right of the main tunnel, leading to rectangular "warehouses".

Tunnel One (uppermost) is the munitions tunnel with the northern end dedicated to munitions and the southern end to bulk weapons storage. There are two small tunnels running towards the surface. The first leads to a Weather Exposure Module and the second to a Electronics Exposure Module.

The Weather EM is hidden underneath blast doors on the top of the 5,138 foot peak. Once activated, a variety of monitoring equipment can be raised and lowered as necessary.

The Electronics EM is located under a second set of blast doors on the top of the 5,177 foot peak. Located here is an aerial search radar, and several antennas for monitoring AM/FM bands as well as satellite dishes.

Tunnel Two (middle) is bulk equipment and vehicle storage.

Tunnel Three (lower) is bulk material storage for the workshops of Prime Base.

At the southern end of the ridge (the original Prime Base location) are eight tunnels, each running some 800 yards in length and some 300 yards in width with 20 foot ceilings. and stacked one above the other.
200 feet deep isn't really that deep, so I would definitely go deeper. I'd say anything less than 1000 feet isn't deep enough.

How much munitions are you needing a three mile tunnel seems to be able to hold a lot more than you need.

I'm wrestling with your housing scheme, but am not sure what would work or would not work. This is one where there are a lot of ways to do this. I think the original idea of the towers had a very positive psychological impact on the residents. I'm pretty sure the easiest way to go would be "trailers in tunnels" but I really think that would be a terrible way to live. I do think the "cooling tower" shape is all wrong, but that the "high rise" idea might not be terrible, depending upon how they are built.
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:31 PM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
200 feet deep isn't really that deep, so I would definitely go deeper. I'd say anything less than 1000 feet isn't deep enough.

How much munitions are you needing a three mile tunnel seems to be able to hold a lot more than you need.

I'm wrestling with your housing scheme, but am not sure what would work or would not work. This is one where there are a lot of ways to do this. I think the original idea of the towers had a very positive psychological impact on the residents. I'm pretty sure the easiest way to go would be "trailers in tunnels" but I really think that would be a terrible way to live. I do think the "cooling tower" shape is all wrong, but that the "high rise" idea might not be terrible, depending upon how they are built.
1000' is kind of overkill. If we assume you are at least a good KM outside of the fireball, 50' is probably enough to keep everyone safe. 200' is a nice safety margin.

I did a quick model of one of the 3 mile long tunnels and came with with about 17 acres of warehouse space with 20m of rock separating each one and placing HVAC and fire suppression stations distributed along the length at about 1 mile each to support the in warehouse units. Make it three and we have a lot of hardware in those tunnels.

I didn't look at the habitat closely yet, so I will reserve comments on that part.
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Old 09-02-2017, 02:07 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Originally Posted by mmartin798 View Post
1000' is kind of overkill. If we assume you are at least a good KM outside of the fireball, 50' is probably enough to keep everyone safe. 200' is a nice safety margin.

I did a quick model of one of the 3 mile long tunnels and came with with about 17 acres of warehouse space with 20m of rock separating each one and placing HVAC and fire suppression stations distributed along the length at about 1 mile each to support the in warehouse units. Make it three and we have a lot of hardware in those tunnels.

I didn't look at the habitat closely yet, so I will reserve comments on that part.
I'm not looking at a near miss. I'd give it the save level of protection Cheyenne Mountain gives NORAD. You can't count on it not getting a direct hit, even if my accident. It is a one of a kind (maybe two of a kind) resource. I wouldn't cheap out on the depth of the facility


I'm also looking at some other issues: 200 feet deep will probably allow fairly easy surface detection and drilling 200 feet is not too hard. It also would not be immune to things like a Grand Slam or Tall Boy bomb. 1000 feet might be overkill but I still think 200 feet is not deep enough. How deep is Cheyenne Mountain?
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Old 09-02-2017, 02:49 PM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
I'm not looking at a near miss. I'd give it the save level of protection Cheyenne Mountain gives NORAD. You can't count on it not getting a direct hit, even if my accident. It is a one of a kind (maybe two of a kind) resource. I wouldn't cheap out on the depth of the facility


I'm also looking at some other issues: 200 feet deep will probably allow fairly easy surface detection and drilling 200 feet is not too hard. It also would not be immune to things like a Grand Slam or Tall Boy bomb. 1000 feet might be overkill but I still think 200 feet is not deep enough. How deep is Cheyenne Mountain?
It depends on how you measure I would think. There is 2500' of granite above it. But I don't think the blast tunnel, which give access to the complex, goes nearly that far into the mountain side. The Cheyenne Mountain Complex (since NORAD only uses 15% of the complex) probably wouldn't survive a direct hit either. It was built to survive a 30 MT detonation as close as 2km away.

Edit:
I found a drawing for the blast tunnel on globalsecurity.org and the shorter north tunnel is indeed 1200' from the blast doors. So 1000' is not unreasonable. I return you to your regularly scheduled forum.

Last edited by mmartin798; 09-02-2017 at 03:56 PM. Reason: New information
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:07 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
200 feet deep isn't really that deep, so I would definitely go deeper. I'd say anything less than 1000 feet isn't deep enough.

How much munitions are you needing a three mile tunnel seems to be able to hold a lot more than you need.

I'm wrestling with your housing scheme, but am not sure what would work or would not work. This is one where there are a lot of ways to do this. I think the original idea of the towers had a very positive psychological impact on the residents. I'm pretty sure the easiest way to go would be "trailers in tunnels" but I really think that would be a terrible way to live. I do think the "cooling tower" shape is all wrong, but that the "high rise" idea might not be terrible, depending upon how they are built.
It is my understanding that the depth of a "bomb-proof" depends a great deal upon the density of the rock. I've been going through USGS surveys of the area and based on the research so far, I'd have to say that the upper tunnel would need to be between 400-500 feet below surface. I would even go so far as to state that the tunnels have been built with reinforced-concrete (3-6 feet thickness).

As for Tunnel One and its munitions storage; my thoughts on this are to separate the ammo igloos by about 50 feet (from the main tunnel) and secured behind multiple blast doors. The actual igloo is a reinforced-concrete domed structure about 100 feet in diameter. Each igloo is dedicated to one type of ammo. As an additional precaution against accidental detonation, the igloos would be staggered left and right of the main tunnel. This would be the first 1.5 miles of the tunnel. Blocking this portion of the tunnel would be another set of blast doors.

The second part of Tunnel One is the weapons storage. This would be a series of 100 foot square warehouses for bulk storage of replacement and special weapons.

As far as the personnel quarters go , this is still underdevelopment, but I am leaning more and more towards domed shaped, 1-2 story structures, still researching the strength of the domed structures, especially being that deep!
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:10 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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1000' is kind of overkill. If we assume you are at least a good KM outside of the fireball, 50' is probably enough to keep everyone safe. 200' is a nice safety margin.

I did a quick model of one of the 3 mile long tunnels and came with with about 17 acres of warehouse space with 20m of rock separating each one and placing HVAC and fire suppression stations distributed along the length at about 1 mile each to support the in warehouse units. Make it three and we have a lot of hardware in those tunnels.

I didn't look at the habitat closely yet, so I will reserve comments on that part.
HVAC at the one mile marks seems doable, fire suppression stations would need to be more closely spaced.
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Old 09-03-2017, 06:17 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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HVAC at the one mile marks seems doable, fire suppression stations would need to be more closely spaced.
Now what do you mean by Fire Suppression Stations? Are these manned fire stations or are they various sectors in a fire sprinkler system? A mile for a fire sprinkler system is a really long run. Now if they are manned that isn't too bad. Now the deal for the ammunition and volatile materials storage should be subdivided into a number of much smaller storage magazines. Each magazine should be individually sprinklered. They should also ideally have a way to vent pressure and blast if possible.

Since this was built in the 1960-1970 I'd say that they were probably going with United States Navy standards for magazines at Weapon Stations in terms of sprinkler protection (flow rate head density and such). I can't recall if each magazine needed a daily temperature check shoreside but shipboard we did daily checks.
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Old 09-03-2017, 08:01 PM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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Since this is a three mile long tunnel, you will not want pressure to drop at the far end away from the water storage tanks. So the fire stations are basically pumps to boost line pressure and I would assume other gear for the personnel to use if needed to control small fires and to perform search and rescue in areas prior to the fire control doors slamming shut.
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Old 09-05-2017, 11:59 AM
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I've started looking through the Department of the Army ammunition safety and storage publication http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pub...eb/p385_64.pdf. This should give some excellent guidance on how the magazines would have been set up.
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Old 09-10-2017, 09:48 AM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Default It just got worse

I just reread the section in the module. It makes even less sense. The towers are surrounded by a steel lattice, which fills in the space between the wider top and bottom of the structures. This takes the additional load. The walls are described as built to "keep the ground outside".

So we now have a steel lattice structure which appears to be within an area of backfill. We have that backfill in direct contact with the concrete walls of the towers. We have the towers rigidly fixed to the bottom of the shafts, but also in full contact with other very heavy elements.

So now instead of a freestanding structure in a vertical shaft (which I incorrectly always assumed due to the diagram on the floor plans, which now seems rather misleading) we have a structure that is rigidly fixed to one surface which will be moving and is surrounded by a vast load, which will also be moving, but in ways that are different from the surface below. This is possibly the worst of all possible world. Any shock transmitted into the mountain will cause the bedrock to move in one way and the backfill to move in another. The towers can't be on springs or roller to allow motion because they are surrounded by backfill. That backfill will also transmit any ground shock into the towers.

Even in a period of a few decades the towers will be presented with huge amounts of stress just from the shifting of the backfill and the movement of the rock layers within the mountain. An Earthquake will send extreme and unpredictable stresses through the structure. There is no way this would work as described.

For the tower floors to be attached to the shaft walls the same goes, unless each attachment point is designed to flex in all three dimensions and to allow for compression, rotation, and tension between the tower and the living rock of the walls.
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Old 09-10-2017, 11:40 AM
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I just reread the section in the module. It makes even less sense. The towers are surrounded by a steel lattice, which fills in the space between the wider top and bottom of the structures. This takes the additional load. The walls are described as built to "keep the ground outside".

So we now have a steel lattice structure which appears to be within an area of backfill. We have that backfill in direct contact with the concrete walls of the towers. We have the towers rigidly fixed to the bottom of the shafts, but also in full contact with other very heavy elements.

So now instead of a freestanding structure in a vertical shaft (which I incorrectly always assumed due to the diagram on the floor plans, which now seems rather misleading) we have a structure that is rigidly fixed to one surface which will be moving and is surrounded by a vast load, which will also be moving, but in ways that are different from the surface below. This is possibly the worst of all possible world. Any shock transmitted into the mountain will cause the bedrock to move in one way and the backfill to move in another. The towers can't be on springs or roller to allow motion because they are surrounded by backfill. That backfill will also transmit any ground shock into the towers.

Even in a period of a few decades the towers will be presented with huge amounts of stress just from the shifting of the backfill and the movement of the rock layers within the mountain. An Earthquake will send extreme and unpredictable stresses through the structure. There is no way this would work as described.

For the tower floors to be attached to the shaft walls the same goes, unless each attachment point is designed to flex in all three dimensions and to allow for compression, rotation, and tension between the tower and the living rock of the walls.
For the disguise plan to work, an appearance of a uniform shape might be required. I think most here would find the place "wrong" as written.
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Old 09-10-2017, 03:30 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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since the structure will be underground it won't be visible anyway
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:09 AM
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Default Modern Marvels on bunkers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxieOhOXn7g
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Old 09-17-2017, 01:30 PM
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My idea for Base Sections

Project Staff Sections

Personnel
Intelligence
Counter Intelligence
Security
Operations
Plans
Supply
Food
Vehicles
Maintenance
Signals
Information Technology
Psychological Operations
Civil Affairs
Aviation

Project Staff Advisors

Project Chief Science Officer
Project Chief Agricultural Officer
Project Medical Officer
Project Chief Engineer
Project Emergency Services Officer
Project Chief Law Enforcement Officer
Project Protection Officer
MARS Advisor
Project Chief Pilot

Prime Base Staff

Commander
Executive Officer
Manpower Officer
Intelligence and Counterintelligence
Operations
Supply
Food Service and Production
Base Management
Maintenance
Base Engineering
Communications and Information Systems
Medical Officer
Base Security (Inside Prime Base)
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