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  #31  
Old 06-04-2017, 03:58 PM
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So again 80-90 percent desertion rates when a) they are growing their own food and able to feed themselves and defend that food when going AWOL means you might starve and
How are they growing their own food? Where did they get seed stock? Where did they get fertilizer and top soil? Where did they get tools? Where did they get tractors? Where did they get the discs, harrows, plows, brush cutters, seed drillers and other equipment for the tractors? Where did they come up with the knowledge and experience? Where did they learn to dry, pickle, preserve, an, and bottle it all before it just rots? That is far too muh hand waving of the details. Growing food in a garden is a skill. Growing food for hundreds is a master class in industry.

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b) the areas around you are overrun with marauder and bandit and cannibal groups that love to pick off small encampments and family groups - which you would know after seeing that happen ever since 1999 - is definitely not realistic
Those groups are not realistically going to last. Defenders with preparation have the advantage, it take three to five attackers for each defender. an they siege you? Yes, probably. If those groups are starving as badly as you say they are; how long an they lay siege?

It takes an overwhelming number of attackers with their own large supply of food and everything else to take any kind of fortification. These marauders aren't going to be harvesting crops, the will want it piked and processed. That again lays the odds into the farmers favor. A simple five sided block house with rock infill, an be built in a few days. Built on opposing corners of homes and barns with food and water they an hold a homestead versus dozens of attackers. Look to frontier forts of the American expansion into the South West.

As for cannibals, simple disease will take are of them. That is one of those PAW memes that are made to mush of. Human flesh would have to be cooked very thoroughly do to infect anyone eating it.
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  #32  
Old 06-04-2017, 07:06 PM
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Per canon the military formations are growing their own food by 1999 in the US and overseas - so pretty obviously they got what they needed to grow food the old fashioned way - they took it by force! Or they gathered up the local farmers and had them grow it for them in exchange for protection

In other words the cantonments are the feudal system all over again with the local lord protecting the farmers who in turn feed the lord and his troops.

So you cant say - well there is no way they would be growing their own food so I agree with canon desertion rates because they would be starving - when canon says they have been growing their own food for two years

thats why the fires flush that unit out of North Carolina - because the fires burn up the crops they were growing and leave them no choice

And Simon - definitely want to add to the canon - the issue is that trying do so in North America, given the contradictions, errors and other issues with HW and Kidnapped you either have to say "nope not going to write in NA" so I dont ruffle feathers and instead describe areas like East Africa that werent previously described - or I have to face it head on, correct the canon as much as possible or put my spin on it and go from there - and as I said that's definitely going to cause issues

and frankly there are lots of good stories in NA and the time is coming to face facts that HW needs to be revised or corrected - and that the events and timeline that Loren came up with - as well as the drought itself - are problematic and need to be corrected - notice I said corrected - not ignored, not completely rewritten but corrected

starting with addressing the incorrect desertion rates and other obvious inconsistencies and the fact that the sub made it home - and what happens afterward with the scientists and a sub to provide power to the Cape May or Norfolk area from its reactors

and that a one year short fall in rain can be addressed with irrigation techniques that go back 7000 years - and that dont need electricity to make them work - you can do it with manpower alone - if the Sumerians did it then the Americans can

Last edited by Olefin; 06-04-2017 at 07:21 PM.
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  #33  
Old 06-04-2017, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by simonmark6 View Post
"It's very interesting how much Twilight 2000 and its fan base is split up like the Christian church is - with the Howling Wilderness/Kidnapped defenders in many ways being like the born again Protestants who defend every word in the Bible as being canonical no matter what it says even if it contradicts itself

Meanwhile those who don't want to use HW and Kidnapped or argue for changes in them in many ways are more like those in the Church who are more willing to accept that perhaps some areas of the Bible may have issues, either from translation or who actually authored them and need to discussed and debated to determine those particular areas of validity within the overall Church canon."

Not really, although trying to reduce a debate to a specious ad hominem false analogy in order to belittle those that disagree with you lowers the strength of your argument somewhat.

Instead of arguing over the validity of the "reality" of a work of fiction that by the nature of the collaborative story-telling element of the art form means that everyone's game will be different and will deviate from canon maybe we should focus on having fun and adding to the body of work so that people can enjoy whatever they want to take from it.

You've already done this with your new sourcebook and I'd suggest hat instead of looking to re-write canon by revisiting modules that exist that we look at expanding the areas covered before we go bac to anything already done.
I definitely plan on adding to the canon for sure - way too many areas not covered - even possibly looking at a collection of how countries not mentioned were affected by the war so people could use that as a basis for adventures
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  #34  
Old 06-04-2017, 07:28 PM
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Then why even have the argument? Simon, you just basically in one breath, accused Olefin of belittling those who disagree with him, and saying "to each their own"?

I kind of wish some folks had taken that attitude with the DCWG.

Here is my biggest issue with the strict canon fans: When will they get in the ring? They tell us "How dare you write that!" and proceed to tear the author, whom has worked his ass off on a given work, I assure you, but did they write anything themselves? Nope. When I did my Australian target list, I did it partly to prove a point: The Twilight War was a WORLD war. Nobody was immune, nobody got off scot free. Was it a world ending event? No. But it is one that will be felt for a while.

So here is my challenge to the strict canonists: Write something. You don't have to submit it to Marc..but you do have to submit it for peer review here. I for one, would like to see what you come up with.

So, gentlemen, the gauntlet has been dropped..are you willing to pick it up?
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  #35  
Old 06-04-2017, 10:52 PM
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Not really, although trying to reduce a debate to a specious ad hominem false analogy in order to belittle those that disagree with you lowers the strength of your argument somewhat.
Actually I am not trying to belittle anyone - as I said "and for the record I can see both sides of the argument and the validity of both sides and appreciate how both sides feel (as a Christian too - lets say my family encompasses both sides of the Bible argument and it does make for lively discussion)"

And I definitely plan to address areas that havent been touched yet - as Jason said this was a world war - and thus its affects, as V2 pointed out, are truly global - and thus telling new stories in new areas is something I am working on

People here have always known I have an issue with Kidnapped and HW - when I played my GM and the players in my group loved the early US modules but were disappointed by Kidnapped and HW as to the incredibly bleak future of the US they painted (one that in my opinion and others would have destroyed the US beyond any hope of recovery in less than a century if ever and went way overboard compared, for instance, to how the timeline for the UK was handled which was much more hopeful and showed a country on the path to recovery and rebirth - not a short path but definitely on that path)

The line in HW that my GM at the time said was the one that really turned him off when he read HW was that there was only going to be, at best, food for one quarter of the remaining population - meaning that the US, which had already lost half of its population was now going to lose 75% of the remainder - and thus be reduced to 12% or less of the pre-war population - we talked about it and our group agreed that it was completely at odds with the idea of a war that had a limited nuclear exchange - let alone the fact that having that many of the remaining people die in such a short time would have basically lead to a spread of disease that would have most likely wiped out the remaining 12% of the population that could be fed - that is if they were even still alive after the desperate fights there would have been over any remaining food at all -

even more so with the remaining military units basically destroyed in most of the country and thus leaving people unable to even defend what did grow and get harvested when they got overrun by starving thousands or tens of thousands

We read it and agreed that what Loren painted wasnt a Howling Wilderness for the future of the US, instead what he painted was an empty wilderness devoid of people that used to be the US

Thats why we didnt even play Satellite Down when he bought it - the idea of a US military so emasculated that the best they could do to get a satellite back that was crucial for national survival was a single small squad of soldiers and a single decrepit boat - frankly even if they did get it back if thats all thats left there isnt anything MilGov or CivGov would be able to do to take advantage of the data

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  #36  
Old 06-05-2017, 12:10 AM
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thus if I do revisit any of the modules it would be by going back further along the timeline and showing how the Last Submarine trilogy would have done to change the HW timeline - or make changes that would actually give the US some hope by using some of the Challenge magazine articles that came out after HW and Kidnapped - I see HW as being the situation as of April 2001 - I have never seen it as actually telling the story all the way thru to the end of the year - and Med Cruise and Boomer and Satellite Down definitely would have changed how things went after those missions as to the rest of 2001
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  #37  
Old 06-05-2017, 11:38 AM
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Per canon the military formations are growing their own food by 1999 in the US and overseas - so pretty obviously they got what they needed to grow food the old fashioned way - they took it by force! Or they gathered up the local farmers and had them grow it for them in exchange for protection

In other words the cantonments are the feudal system all over again with the local lord protecting the farmers who in turn feed the lord and his troops.
That sets the stage for mass desertions right there. When the General declares himself King and the Colonels are now Dukes, the soldiers will rightfully and legally rebel. Those are not legal orders. What you are suggesting is called Extortion.

I promise you, if I were in that situation and the General declared we would be extorting food from civilians I would apprehend him, his staff, and anyone that obey such an unlawful order. Given the exigencies of the system, they would likely found guilty by Trial, then hung from the neck until dead.

Even the FEMA "powers" by Presidential Executive Order (President J.F. Kennedy) are on very weak legal ground with more than enough justification for Citizens to ignore them and arrest anyone that invokes or obeys them.

The chain of command is failing and falling apart in those units with offiers and senior non commissioned officers torn between MilGov and ivilian Gov.

Units loyal to the United States Constitution and units "Going Feudal" aka marauder firing upon one another... another reason desertion is 80-90%.

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So you cant say - well there is no way they would be growing their own food so I agree with canon desertion rates because they would be starving - when canon says they have been growing their own food for two years
That is inconsistent with the famine too. If no one is growing food, then how is it that units in Cantonments are able? Without tools, seed stock, the means to preserve a harvest, or the knowledge to do any of that. These units are succeeding. That in and of itself is a logical inconsistency.
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  #38  
Old 06-05-2017, 11:51 AM
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The line in HW that my GM at the time said was the one that really turned him off when he read HW was that there was only going to be, at best, food for one quarter of the remaining population - meaning that the US, which had already lost half of its population was now going to lose 75% of the remainder - and thus be reduced to 12% or less of the pre-war population - we talked about it and our group agreed that it was completely at odds with the idea of a war that had a limited nuclear exchange - let alone the fact that having that many of the remaining people die in such a short time would have basically lead to a spread of disease that would have most likely wiped out the remaining 12% of the population that could be fed - that is if they were even still alive after the desperate fights there would have been over any remaining food at all -
f

As Nationalistic ( even Jingoistic, admitted to a degree) I am still inclined to agree with canon.

Those nuclear weapons didn't just hit military bases and few downtown shopping districts.

Those nuclear weapons destroyed infrastructure. Most specifically hydroelectric power infrastructure that the U.S. would find very difficult to repair if nothing else was destroyed.

Bonneville dam and Boulder dam are destroyed. There is little pockets of power west of the Rocky Mountains. This affects even Western Canada and Northern Mexico.

The water backed up in Lake Mead (and further upstream Lake Powell) is desperately needed to irrigate crops in Arizona and California.

Without that power even deep rock water wells are untouchable.

The nuclear power, LP power, and coal power plants are not enough except very regionally.

On the east coast, that means the Tennessee Valley District and more.

I don't think, personally, that Loren was really off much at all.
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  #39  
Old 06-05-2017, 11:55 AM
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Guys, please be careful regarding the canon debate. It's historically been pretty toxic here.

It's really cool that Marc Miller has dubbed Olefin's East African Sourcebook canon. Is Mr. Miller sole arbiter of what is and what isn't canon? I don't know. Does his nod make Olefin a co-arbiter of canon? Should we take it on authority, second hand, that HW is no longer canon? This is a slippery slope.

Let's all keep in mind that T2K is whatever the GM running the campaign wants it to be. If a GM likes the America described in HW, cool, let him use it. If a GM hates it, cool, let the GM build a different setting more suited to his sensibilities. Different strokes and all that.

Secondly, there seems to be a bit of a double standard at play here. If it's OK for members to critique HW, it should be OK for members to critique fellow members' works as well. Constructive criticism is not off-limits. According to forum guidelines, criticism is OK as long as its asked for, constructive, and doesn't devolve into personal attacks.

Lastly, if we want to debate the merits (or lack thereof) of HW, there's a whole thread already devoted to that.
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Old 06-05-2017, 03:29 PM
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Guys, please be careful regarding the canon debate. It's historically been pretty toxic here.

It's really cool that Marc Miller has dubbed Olefin's East African Sourcebook canon. Is Mr. Miller sole arbiter of what is and what isn't canon? I don't know. Does his nod make Olefin a co-arbiter of canon? Should we take it on authority, second hand, that HW is no longer canon? This is a slippery slope.

Let's all keep in mind that T2K is whatever the GM running the campaign wants it to be. If a GM likes the America described in HW, cool, let him use it. If a GM hates it, cool, let the GM build a different setting more suited to his sensibilities. Different strokes and all that.

Secondly, there seems to be a bit of a double standard at play here. If it's OK for members to critique HW, it should be OK for members to critique fellow members' works as well. Constructive criticism is not off-limits. According to forum guidelines, criticism is OK as long as its asked for, constructive, and doesn't devolve into personal attacks.

Lastly, if we want to debate the merits (or lack thereof) of HW, there's a whole thread already devoted to that.
Completely agree with you Raellus - and if anything was just trying to show how hard it is to write new material and keep the majority of people happy when there are so many splits in the fan base as to canon versus non-canon especially when it comes to HW and the drought.

And for the record Marc is the sole arbiter of what is canon and what is not - I have a few suggestions for ideas and have run them by him for future work and he will be the final decision on them not me - he owns the canon (as he owns the rights to the game) and has already told me what ideas he prefers over others - in the end no matter what I write (or others) it wont get published unless he is ok with it - not as official canon for damn sure

And there is a big difference between my personal preference and history of canon - i.e. notice what I was referring to was my GM's view of HW and how our group discussed it and did not use it as such - versus the canon of the module as a whole within the Twilight 2000 world


Keep in mind that the release of the module's themselves by the various authors changed the canon and the history as we knew it from the original boxed set - the original V1 boxed set did not have the US in any way suffering an uber drought - that came about over the course of several module releases - thus the original canon was changed by the authors with each new release

Omega, the drought, Last Submarine (and the cheap fusion reactors the scientists brought with them), New America, the idea of a change in the weather - all of them came after the original release of the game

thus with the start of new canon releases again the canon of the Twilight 2000 world is again being changed in some way just as it was during the original releases, opening the same potential can of worms as before - and thus anyone who does any new releases needs to be as mindful of possible of the old canon when they release their material - which is one reason I am going thru everything I can get my hands on to make sure I didnt miss anything

and as Raellus pointed out - completely and totally correctly - there is no compulsion to have to have your game conform completely to canon - if you dont like the changes, whatever they may be (and there may very likely be none beyond just exploring new areas mentioned but not detailed in the game) then ignore them with my blessing

example from what I just released - if you want the 2nd Armored to come home or go to Iran in your game instead of go to Kenya please feel completely welcome to do that - if you rather use Raellus's version of the order of battle for the US in Kenya than mine please do so if it would be what your players enjoy
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  #41  
Old 06-06-2017, 10:36 AM
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Keep in mind that the release of the module's themselves by the various authors changed the canon and the history as we knew it from the original boxed set - the original V1 boxed set did not have the US in any way suffering an uber drought - that came about over the course of several module releases - thus the original canon was changed by the authors with each new release
The chronology established in the box set ends in July of 2000. Chronologically, subsequent modules took place after EfK. It's not so much a matter of changing canon as it was adding to it, and evolving it.

And, of course, player action could have a direct impact on the game world. A good GM would make adjustments to the game world based on what players accomplished, or didn't, during the modules.

I'm by no means an expert on T2K adventure modules. I am intimately familiar with the original Poland adventures but only have a passing familiarity with the CONUS modules. Please correct me if I am wrong, but, to my knowledge, none of the published modules say, "ignore such and such- it didn't happen that way; it happened this way instead."

I think you are proposing a fundamental change to canon, by writing out the drought from HW. This alters canon, instead of adding to or evolving it.

If Marc Miller were to come out publicly (like here, for starters) and say, "ignore HW" or, "the drought wasn't as bad as initially described" or something to that effect, I think it would be easier for some members to swallow. If that were the case, I think an official, amended version of HW, would be the logical jumping-off point for post-2001 canonical material.
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  #42  
Old 06-06-2017, 11:43 AM
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Once the book(s) are in one's hot little hands, they become the raw material for the GM to mold into his/her T2K universe. Maybe the HW drought was as bad as stated. Maybe the forecast didn't take into account the enormous drop-off of petroleum combustion, or the fact that the ozone layer healed faster than thought possible. Maybe friendly aliens helped scrub the particulate matter from large volumes of the atmosphere.
I tend to agree with the "twist the knife" feeling of Howling Wilderness, and would cherry-pick parts that I felt kept the storyline going and ameliorate or handwave or ignore the nastier parts as needed. By 2001, I'd be looking for more signs of organization and order, threatened by forces of conquest or greed.
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  #43  
Old 06-06-2017, 12:51 PM
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Rae,
I think such discussions are yes, best done in a circumspect manner due to the passions involved, however...I think an honest discussion on why folks do or do not like HW is appropos, and if Marc is willing, an appeal to him to reevaluate it?
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Old 06-06-2017, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
The chronology established in the box set ends in July of 2000. Chronologically, subsequent modules took place after EfK. It's not so much a matter of changing canon as it was adding to it, and evolving it.

And, of course, player action could have a direct impact on the game world. A good GM would make adjustments to the game world based on what players accomplished, or didn't, during the modules.

I'm by no means an expert on T2K adventure modules. I am intimately familiar with the original Poland adventures but only have a passing familiarity with the CONUS modules. Please correct me if I am wrong, but, to my knowledge, none of the published modules say, "ignore such and such- it didn't happen that way; it happened this way instead."

I think you are proposing a fundamental change to canon, by writing out the drought from HW. This alters canon, instead of adding to or evolving it.

If Marc Miller were to come out publicly (like here, for starters) and say, "ignore HW" or, "the drought wasn't as bad as initially described" or something to that effect, I think it would be easier for some members to swallow. If that were the case, I think an official, amended version of HW, would be the logical jumping-off point for post-2001 canonical material.
Actually the NA modules have several contradictions in them - and the biggest is HW compared to earlier releases - in several places it directly contradicts canon from Allegheny Uprising and the Ozarks module as well as Red Star Lone Star - that alone shows that it wasnt coordinated with the rest of the canon releases - when I get home tonight I will put together a list of the contradictions.

Also the events of the Last Submarine Trilogy - which end with the implication that the sub gets home with the scientists aboard that know how to make cheap fusion reactors and thus be able to get power going again in the US - arent even covered in the module. Or recovering the Soviet weather satellite in Satellite Down.

Its either an accurate description of the US all the way to the end of 2001- which is basically says it is - or its a snapshot in time and thus shows May 1, 2001 and after that new releases can possibly show a different path

or what Loren was saying was that the sub never got home and the Soviets got the satellite and the US timeline for the rest of the year shows that by not mentioning them in any way

And no I didnt say to ignore the drought or write it out or say it didnt exist - as I said before thats what my GM SAID when we did our campaign back when we played the original games - keep in mind my GM also had the Submarine launching three TLAM-N's and taking out Ploesti - made for a great game but no one is saying lets make that canon

What I am saying and have said before is that the drought as portrayed would have not only stopped any recovery but it would have killed the country for sure and most likely almost completely depopulated it as well. Given that kind of drought and the canon die off of 75% plus (and most likely more like 85% when you throw in fighting over the food that was left) of the remaining population and then add in disease from 70 million plus dead bodies rotting everywhere (because starving people arent going to bury them) you would be lucky if 5% or so of the pre-war US population is left by years end.

But according to 2300 canon MilGov and CivGov survive that and unite to defeat New America? Sorry but in the face of that kind of disaster the US would be finished for a century or more.

Given that level of drought you wouldnt have to worry about Mexican domination of the Southwest, southern CA and Texas either - those areas would basically be lucky to have 15,000 people left alive after the Colorado and Rio Grande and the other rivers went dry in AZ, NM, TX and CA. The Apache might have survived it but I doubt anyone else would.

And if anything the winter would result in more snow not less - you have huge amounts of particulate matter from burning cities and nuclear detonations and campfires causing forest fires thrust into the atmosphere in 1997-2000 - if anything a realistic weather depiction would be more snow and a shorter growing season possibly affecting food production

so local droughts that are bad causing big population shifts - believable -

people having to leave southern CA because the system that brings water from the north is busted - yup totally believable -

snow staying on the ground till late May or June making the growing season shorter - yup again -

forest fires burning from way too many idiots with campfires and too many firefights in the woods (which is in the module) - yup completely believable

a continent wide uber drought that basically undermines the effects of every other NA module written to that point, has issues with the timelines of those modules, kills off so much of the US population that by 2300 they would be lucky to have 45 million people north of the Rio Grande (and I am being very liberal in my estimates) and that would put most of the US back to pre-industrial levels of technologies (and by that I mean back to the 1700's) when people have to kill off every draft animal there was to feed starving people so they are trying to plow by hand in 2002?

and where not one mention is made of using irrigation methods that would have worked to plant and water crops to feed people that have been around since Sumeria (4000 BC)?

sorry thats not believable - and if there are new works on the game some of those issues should be addressed in a way that honors the previous canon but also - as you said Raellus- evolves it as the previous authors did with their releases
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:45 PM
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Actually the NA modules have several contradictions in them - and the biggest is HW compared to earlier releases - in several places it directly contradicts canon from Allegheny Uprising and the Ozarks module as well as Red Star Lone Star - that alone shows that it wasnt coordinated with the rest of the canon releases - when I get home tonight I will put together a list of the contradictions.
That would be very helpful for those of us who not very familiar with the CONUS modules. It would also be a great starting point for a HW revamp.

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sorry thats not believable - and if there are new works on the game some of those issues should be addressed in a way that honors the previous canon but also - as you said Raellus- evolves it as the previous authors did with their releases
Yes, we've been over this ad nauseam. There's a whole thread devoted to it. Again, I don't disagree with a lot of your criticisms of HW. I too think it goes a little too far in places. But, at the moment, we're just talking about opinions, educated though they may be. Like it or not, right now, and for the foreseeable future, Howling Wilderness is canon.

We need Marc Miller to come out and officially RETCON, or authorize someone else to do so, Howling Wilderness. Have you considered attempting this for your next project, Olefin? You are one of its most vocal critics and some of your work has recently been canonized. You strike me as being the perfect individual, other than Mr. Miller himself, to redesign HW.

Until such time as Marc Miller canonizes a module or sourcebook that RETCONs the parts of HW that you don't like- and you are not alone, I know- then this is all moot, isn't it?
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:59 PM
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actually I was going to move some of what I said to that other thread

Raellus - I forgot where is the thread that was discussing HW specifically - you are right that that belongs there

FYI one of the things I am talking about as to contradiction

HW Page 44 -MilGov was unable to mount an offensive in 1999 in Texas

Red Star Lone Star - page 42 - A US counteroffensive in 1999 failed

US Army Vehicle Guide - 95th Infantry Division participated in the 5th Army's drive to clear Texas of marauders and paramilitary bands. Following the defeat of the 49th Armored Division by Soviet Division Cuba the 95th fought rearguard actions to cover the withdrawal of 90th Corps into Oklahoma.

49th Armored Division spearheaded the same drive and suffered heavy vehicle losses when counterattacked by Soviet Division Cuba. The School Brigade was attached to the 49th for the offensive.

Thus you have both the US Army Vehicle Guide and Red Star Lone Star stating that the US Army clearly conducted an offensive into Texas in 1999 - and HW contradicts it by saying there was no offensive.

Second

Airlords of the Ozarks - the adventure doesnt even start until the end of February/early March of 2001 - you have to allow time to get in there, do the adventure, find out what is going on and then report back to MilGov - but according to HW MilGov is already attacking into the Ozarks in March and taking massive casualties - to the point that the 85th is merged with the 197th by March - so the timelines dont agree - according to HW by April 2001 they are mopping up NA in Arkansas and Missouri after a long fight - but according to Ozarks that fight couldnt even have begun yet until late March to early April at the earliest

Allegheny Uprising - the govt in Harrisburg is still intact but has no influence on the western part of the states - and the farmland in the center of the state is said to be fertile - also the adventure itself can be set anytime after Dec 2000 - but it specifically says you can have characters play Ozarks first - which means that the earliest you could get those characters there given the distance would be mid- April to mid May of 2001 - according to HW that area was already seeing the effects of the drought - but there is no mention of that in Allegheny Uprising - just a short food situation around Pittsburgh - also the whole reason Caldwell wants to recover the cache's is to regain CivGov control over all of Maryland and Western PA - yet in HW by that time frame he is already in the process of starting the evacuation

entry from Uprising says that it could start as late as the summer of 2001 - by which time Caldwell according to HW is already evacuating the area

Depending on the background of the ongoing campaign, some referees may prefer to begin the scenario with the player characters somewhere along the Mississippi or Ohio Rivers. An
adventure group which has recently completed the module Airlords of the Ozarks may begin in Memphis, Tennessee, which is currently held by the 197th Infantry Brigade (Mechanized),
and make their way by barge or river tug up the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers to Pittsburgh. In the summer of 2001, this would be a long and difficult journey, made dangerous by the marauder
and pirate bands which infest the river valley regions and prey on inland waterway commerce. The trek could easily be spun out into a long campaign in its own right.

HW PA - no mention at all of any central government in PA or of any attempts to recover any of the other caches mentioned in Allegheny Uprising - and the five Bradley's recovered in the cache by the 228th are not mentioned at all in that units description - and those fully operational Bradleys would be very powerful vehicles indeed in 2001

Soviet Vehicle Guide - 41st and 14th Soviet Motor Rifle Divisions have changed sides and are now friendly to NATO and are fighting on MilGov's side

HW - no mention at all of either unit in Alaska or of what happened to those units - and the 41st had nearly 4000 men and 4 tanks - so what happened to the 41st?

Ok so as promised there is part of what I meant by contradictions in HW to earlier canon - and as Baretta used to say "thats the name of that tune" - any other posts about HW I will put up on the other thread Raellus once you send me the link - and as for new canon releases I am working on several things now and will work with Marc to see what is ok with and what isnt

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Old 06-09-2017, 11:16 PM
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FYI was looking at some of the nuclear attacks in the game - GDW must have not had all their research up to date - the nuclear attack at Sugar Creek, MO at the refinery makes no sense - it closed in 1982, long before they wrote the game
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Old 06-09-2017, 11:55 PM
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FYI was looking at some of the nuclear attacks in the game - GDW must have not had all their research up to date - the nuclear attack at Sugar Creek, MO at the refinery makes no sense - it closed in 1982, long before they wrote the game
There was a bulk storage unit still in use with 1,249,867 barrels capacity, and the refinery was progressively demolished over the course of the 1980s, with some structures (other than the tanks) surviving into 1989.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:08 AM
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FYI was looking at some of the nuclear attacks in the game - GDW must have not had all their research up to date - the nuclear attack at Sugar Creek, MO at the refinery makes no sense - it closed in 1982, long before they wrote the game
Well who says the Soviets' intelligence was always perfect?
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:48 AM
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There was a bulk storage unit still in use with 1,249,867 barrels capacity, and the refinery was progressively demolished over the course of the 1980s, with some structures (other than the tanks) surviving into 1989.
HW was written in 1988 - have a feeling Loren was using an old encyclopedia when he put the list together - i.e. you leave Robinson intact but nuke some storage tanks and a demolished refinery with a .5Mt nuke?

Thats one reason also to argue for a rewrite of HW and other modules to bring things up to date - it allows corrections to some details and also to add some new stuff as well that would have changed

Prime example would be Reset - great plot idea in 1985 - looking back now and remembering what we had for computers and other devices by 1997 its definitely an anachronism - or for that matter the fact the the Soviets didnt hit Silicon Valley at all or other centers of computer development - because they were in their infancy when the game was written

in "real life" a 1997 target list would have taken places like Apple and Microsoft for sure as an example of how you could update HW

And I know a lot of gamers who after years of suffering at the hands of Bill Gates would probably love to read how he got nuked big time

And Admiral Lee - that is an interesting point you make as well - but Russian intelligence officers wouldnt have missed something as obvious as a demolished refinery -
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Old 06-10-2017, 03:28 PM
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It's hard to deny that the game needs some polishing, and refinement. As monumental a task as it would be, this fine group of people is more than capable of coming up with a 'v1.2' if you will. Collect all the data from the books considered 'least problematic', tidy them up, then take the inconsistent and controversial material, and change it around to make it fit while trying to keep from getting too far out of whack, then go back and double check the 'stable' material, all while using common sense and retrospect to keep true to the game we all know and love. 'reset' is always been a bit of a hangup for me, given what I know about how computers work, especially in the 90's. But everything else about that mission/story arc I absolutely love.
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Old 06-11-2017, 05:39 AM
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It's hard to deny that the game needs some polishing, and refinement. As monumental a task as it would be, this fine group of people is more than capable of coming up with a 'v1.2' if you will. Collect all the data from the books considered 'least problematic', tidy them up, then take the inconsistent and controversial material, and change it around to make it fit while trying to keep from getting too far out of whack, then go back and double check the 'stable' material, all while using common sense and retrospect to keep true to the game we all know and love. 'reset' is always been a bit of a hangup for me, given what I know about how computers work, especially in the 90's. But everything else about that mission/story arc I absolutely love.

That's what I have been saying for years. We are now the experts on the game. Why not tweek it ourselves and make an unofficial re-write. Majority rules by vote on controversial parts of the new history.
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:52 AM
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That's what I have been saying for years. We are now the experts on the game. Why not tweek it ourselves and make an unofficial re-write. Majority rules by vote on controversial parts of the new history.
There's no need to get involved in voting, which is unlikely to do much other than cause divisions - if people want to write unofficial and alternative material there's absolutely nothing stopping them. I speak from experience. I didn't like the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom so I wrote my own. Granted, it took me over six years, but it's done (and is available for free here).

http://www.twilight2000files.com/article01.html

To me it's pretty simple - if people like the material others put forward they can use it, if they don't they can ignore it.
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:52 PM
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I agree. I added whole new American Divisions (4th Armored (Light)), 2nd Cavalry, 11th Airborne, 17th Airborne, 12th Infantry, 15th Infantry....). Had a lot more available armor (hampered by fuel and maintenance problems). And other changes large and small. I tweaked the adventures, articles, and guides ad nauseum. If you want everything to track canon, more power to you. You want to tweak things so much that it bears no relation to canon, good for you. Everybody has there own way to approach this.

But as has been pointed out, there were a lot of inconsistencies in the modules. I liked the V2.2 timeline the best! And changed up the German history to match.

Someday, I will share my timeline, but I still a tweaking it!

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Old 06-11-2017, 04:17 PM
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and thats the difference between me writing new canon modules and sourcebooks versus writing fan canon that isnt going to be official - when I released the East Africa Sourcebook officially as a GDW product it became canon - so I cant just ignore previous canon as I could with, for instance, the Olefin universe timeline that I did for quite a while (which included my GM changing the Last Submarine to have the sub use nukes on Ploesti as he did when we played the game back in the 80's)

I did create new formations - but most of them were ones that Frank had in his notes he posted here about what would have been in his Kenya module if he had released it - with my own touches like bringing the 2nd Armored to Africa (since after Omega there are zero canon mentions of that division it allowed me to stay in canon with that change - whereas if the canon had mentioned them in Iran or Virginia in April of 2001 then I wouldnt have been able to do that) and the full detailing of the Kenyan, Rwandan and LRA Orbats along with detailing the French units in Eastern Africa (many of which had already been mentioned in the RDF)
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:47 PM
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FYI one way you could look at a rewrite of HW would be from the information we now have that show that the drought as depicted could not have happened - for one reason because of the effect of the La Nina that occurred from 1998-2001 which increased snowfall across the US - meaning that the cold winter without snowfall that HW and Kidnapped promulgated could not have occurred during those years due to the effects of the La Nina - the effects of the war, if anything would have added to the snow fall during those years due to increase of particulates

Also you would have had to change the Pacific Jet Stream in the Pacific itself to have affected the La Nina - and most of the nukes were in the US and Europe and China in the Northern Hemisphere - meaning that they would have had almost no effect on La Nina - meaning that most of the US west of the Mississippi would have had considerable snowfall and thus the winter wheat crop would have the snow cover it needed and the water run off needed for the spring planting

Could you still have the drought in the Southeast and the Mid-Atlantic areas - yes that is a possibility so HW in the those areas could have run its course as written - but not in the West and upper Midwest

so is there an argument for an updated canon that contains the effects of the drought to those areas and still makes for huge disruptions of the population leaving those areas - yes - and that kind of effect would still leave much of HW intact as to those areas while making the overall effect on the US much less - still a major disruption and still having an effect on the population - but not one that would basically result in the US dying for good as a country

and again Loren when he wrote the modules would not have had that information or the weather models we have today - so the question is not a case of possible rewrites due to the modules being wrong - its more a question of retconning them to make them more accurate for the years involved in the modules to bring a higher level of accuracy and story telling to what is now events that occurred in the past of "real life" whereas when they were written they were attempts at saying where the future was headed

or to look at it another way - look at what they did to retcon Star Trek when they did the alternate future - obviously they had to eliminate the anachronisms that would have occurred from just reshooting Star Trek with no changes - thus the updates to the computer systems, communicators, phasers, etc. - because in many ways we caught up with Star Trek

here any possible retcon if it occurred (not rewrite per se but retcon to bring real world events including weather effects, personalities, films, music, etc. into the game to make it more accurate) would be as improvements for both playability and increased reality

i.e. an example would be playing Krakow and having players mention that they had seen Schlinder's List and thus had some familiarity with the city - a movie that didnt come out till 1993 and whose story was almost completely unknown when the module was written in the 80's

or having a survivor in the US mention that seeing the aftermath of Washington DC getting nuked was nothing like they depicted in the nuking of Buenos Aires in Starship Troopers - which was released only a few weeks before the TDM in the timeline - or Independence Day - which was released the year before
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Old 06-11-2017, 05:18 PM
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Glorious.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:42 PM
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I'm on board with mpipes, that each person can adapt existing sources however they wish for their own campaign. Everything is tilting at windmills as far as I'm concerned, and the vitriol has rapidly gone from being pointless to being actively annoying.
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Old 06-12-2017, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
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FYI one way you could look at a rewrite of HW would be from the information we now have that show that the drought as depicted could not have happened - for one reason because of the effect of the La Nina that occurred from 1998-2001 which increased snowfall across the US - meaning that the cold winter without snowfall that HW and Kidnapped promulgated could not have occurred during those years due to the effects of the La Nina - the effects of the war, if anything would have added to the snow fall during those years due to increase of particulates
Completely irrelevant. The events or weather occurring in our reality have absolutely no bearing on the fictional T2K universe. Using this justification there in no war and the T2K timeline has been invalidated by the collapse of the Soviet Union on 9 November 1989.

The weather in T2K is not ours here now or in 98-01.

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Also you would have had to change the Pacific Jet Stream in the Pacific itself to have affected the La Nina - and most of the nukes were in the US and Europe and China in the Northern Hemisphere - meaning that they would have had almost no effect on La Nina - meaning that most of the US west of the Mississippi would have had considerable snowfall and thus the winter wheat crop would have the snow cover it needed and the water run off needed for the spring planting

Could you still have the drought in the Southeast and the Mid-Atlantic areas - yes that is a possibility so HW in the those areas could have run its course as written - but not in the West and upper Midwest
No one is completely sure what the effect of nuclear might be. Though in the T2K timeline the exchange is in measured doses (tit for tat) that doesn't prelude a cumulative effect compounded by unstoppable forest fires rampaging across the U.S. national forests and the Soviet taiga.

That does serve to mean cooler northern temperatures and Arctic are is dry air. The currents along the U.S. west shores is cold southern flows until past San Fransisco. The hot loop passes up around Hawaii then loops baxk around Hawaii and turns south again.

I grew up in Oregon. Tourists drown going to paddle board in the surf off the Oregon coast due to hypothermia in the 45F waters in August. Locals wear wet suits to play in the surf.

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so is there an argument for an updated canon that contains the effects of the drought to those areas and still makes for huge disruptions of the population leaving those areas - yes - and that kind of effect would still leave much of HW intact as to those areas while making the overall effect on the US much less - still a major disruption and still having an effect on the population - but not one that would basically result in the US dying for good as a country
So? Let it die then? Anyone see the Romans complaining?

The U.S. is destroyed. Knocked down to a 3rd world minor power after a nuclear exchange and five years (ten years) of global war. Probably not even 50 states any longer or not a very cooperative Union at that either. There is two competing governments and probably many States accepting the legitimacy of either and not cooperating with either to boot.

There is no Law in the Universe that demands a fully restored U.S.A super power after the events of T2K.

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and again Loren when he wrote the modules would not have had that information or the weather models we have today - so the question is not a case of possible rewrites due to the modules being wrong - its more a question of retconning them to make them more accurate for the years involved in the modules to bring a higher level of accuracy and story telling to what is now events that occurred in the past of "real life" whereas when they were written they were attempts at saying where the future was headed
Again irrelevant. The events, i.e. the weather, of our reality have nothing to do with the fictional universe of T2K. Whether Loren had the information or not means nothing.

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or to look at it another way - look at what they did to retcon Star Trek when they did the alternate future - obviously they had to eliminate the anachronisms that would have occurred from just reshooting Star Trek with no changes - thus the updates to the computer systems, communicators, phasers, etc. - because in many ways we caught up with Star Trek
I am assuming the Star Trek films produed by J.J. Abrams? The Abramsverse is not an alternate future, it is an alternate universe as well. A timeline that came into existence when the Romulan vessels crossed over through a black hole.

If your speaking of Star Trek Enterprise.... That is probably the reason for the low fan acceptance and cancellation after five seasons. The modern displays and other systems where not "The Old Show" Star Trek.

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here any possible retcon if it occurred (not rewrite per se but retcon to bring real world events including weather effects, personalities, films, music, etc. into the game to make it more accurate) would be as improvements for both playability and increased reality

i.e. an example would be playing Krakow and having players mention that they had seen Schlinder's List and thus had some familiarity with the city - a movie that didnt come out till 1993 and whose story was almost completely unknown when the module was written in the 80's

or having a survivor in the US mention that seeing the aftermath of Washington DC getting nuked was nothing like they depicted in the nuking of Buenos Aires in Starship Troopers - which was released only a few weeks before the TDM in the timeline - or Independence Day - which was released the year before
This is all some minutiae that anyone would find unlikely to happen in a regular role play session. Players are operating at village level politics, and if you have them operating at the macro scale; then those become npcs, and your players roll up new characters.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:31 PM
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"So? Let it die then? Anyone see the Romans complaining?

The U.S. is destroyed. Knocked down to a 3rd world minor power after a nuclear exchange and five years (ten years) of global war. Probably not even 50 states any longer or not a very cooperative Union at that either. There is two competing governments and probably many States accepting the legitimacy of either and not cooperating with either to boot.

There is no Law in the Universe that demands a fully restored U.S.A super power after the events of T2K. "

Actually there is such a law - its called 2300AD that states the US rose again as a major power both on Earth and in space.

And the last I heard 2300AD is supposed to be the future of the Twilight 2000 canon.

Thus in this particular universe that is the law that states it.

And Loren's HW has the US so devastated that the canon of 2300AD cannot come to pass.

As I pointed out to Marc either 2300AD is right or HW is right - you cant have both - not with the loss of that much of the US population and the US Army falling apart basically outside of Colorado and Sacramento.
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