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  #31  
Old 04-20-2017, 08:55 PM
The Dark The Dark is offline
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Originally Posted by unkated View Post
How can you have a Royal Army without a Royal?

Has no one gone to Bavaria to fetch home Bonnie Princess Sophie (like it or not)?

*snip*

Opposing teams of SAS, Scottish leftists, British Royalists, French secret services, Soviet spies, Lichtensteiner loyalists, a trip across the stormy North Sea, and an angry fairy tale princess.....

Uncle Ted
They may not even need to go to Bavaria. Prince Alois and Princess Sophie lived in London until May 1996 in our timeline; their first son (Prince Joseph) was born in Portland Hospital in 1995.
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  #32  
Old 04-20-2017, 09:35 PM
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Royal Army is what it is in the sourcebook... I think the title works, I might play around with the head of government part.

I tried to avoid the term SAS as I wanted it to try and distance itself a little from the British Army (hence the name changes)
The SNP are republicans and would not be in favour of restoring the Scottish monarchy who ever that might be. What would be the point of exchanging the British royals with a new Scottish royal who is not Scottish?

Also a Scottish monarch would probably be the head of state of an independent Scotland, and I don't think the SNP would be too inclined to defer or consult their new laws and policies with a royal, yet alone share power.

Being republicans I don't think the SNP would also be interesting in founding a new Royal Army of Scotland, who would likely take an oath of allegiance to the Scottish monarch just as British troops take an oath to the British monarch. So I think the GDW may have made an error here by naming it a Royal Army of Scotland.

Personally I think any new Scottish Army would be drawn from reserve territorials rather than regular troops, and many Scottish soldiers from Scottish units such as for example the Black Watch Regiment who would be ultra-British nationalist and certainly ultra-Royalist (British) and would want nothing to do with a new Scottish Army. I think the naming of Scottish units would be along the lines of newly named units rather than drawing on traditional Scottish units of the British Army or other British forces.
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  #33  
Old 04-21-2017, 04:27 AM
James Langham2 James Langham2 is offline
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The SNP are republicans and would not be in favour of restoring the Scottish monarchy who ever that might be. What would be the point of exchanging the British royals with a new Scottish royal who is not Scottish?

Also a Scottish monarch would probably be the head of state of an independent Scotland, and I don't think the SNP would be too inclined to defer or consult their new laws and policies with a royal, yet alone share power.

Being republicans I don't think the SNP would also be interesting in founding a new Royal Army of Scotland, who would likely take an oath of allegiance to the Scottish monarch just as British troops take an oath to the British monarch. So I think the GDW may have made an error here by naming it a Royal Army of Scotland.

Personally I think any new Scottish Army would be drawn from reserve territorials rather than regular troops, and many Scottish soldiers from Scottish units such as for example the Black Watch Regiment who would be ultra-British nationalist and certainly ultra-Royalist (British) and would want nothing to do with a new Scottish Army. I think the naming of Scottish units would be along the lines of newly named units rather than drawing on traditional Scottish units of the British Army or other British forces.
I agree about the republican nature of Scottish politics however I am trying to remain within canon. :-( I may look at it as a figurehead type leader to increase legitimacy.

While the names of units are based on pre-war units, many of these will be reformed after losses, particularly during the nuclear exchanges. I probably need to elaborate that.

Few of the pre-war military would be present in SCotland, I view most of those serving as wartime volunteers or conscripts with less of a tie to the British Army and it's institutions.
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  #34  
Old 04-21-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by James Langham2 View Post
I agree about the republican nature of Scottish politics however I am trying to remain within canon. :-( I may look at it as a figurehead type leader to increase legitimacy.

While the names of units are based on pre-war units, many of these will be reformed after losses, particularly during the nuclear exchanges. I probably need to elaborate that.

Few of the pre-war military would be present in SCotland, I view most of those serving as wartime volunteers or conscripts with less of a tie to the British Army and it's institutions.

Have you seen Rainbow Six's Scotland and the Scottish Army in T2K. This I think is a very realistic depiction of Scotland and the wider UK in the Twilight War.

http://www.twilight2000files.com/page53.html

http://www.twilight2000files.com/
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  #35  
Old 04-26-2017, 12:55 PM
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James, thanks for the namecheck, RN7, thanks for the endorsement - both are appreciated.

FWIW I absolutely agree that using the term 'Royal' to refer to the Army of Scotland was an error on GDW's part. The notion of a Stuart descendant returning to claim the Scottish throne, either of their own accord or at the behest of the SNP, is highly implausible imho - as has been stated, the SNP are Republican in all but name.
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  #36  
Old 04-26-2017, 01:57 PM
James Langham2 James Langham2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
James, thanks for the namecheck, RN7, thanks for the endorsement - both are appreciated.

FWIW I absolutely agree that using the term 'Royal' to refer to the Army of Scotland was an error on GDW's part. The notion of a Stuart descendant returning to claim the Scottish throne, either of their own accord or at the behest of the SNP, is highly implausible imho - as has been stated, the SNP are Republican in all but name.
You are welcome, I thought it fitted well and has the irony of the Rainbow Warrior...

I agree and I'm working on a reason - considering some sort of agreement perhaps a coalition as with the Lib-Lab government in the game it is possible that the SNP get less support IRL - just musing and open to ideas if others have them.
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  #37  
Old 04-26-2017, 02:39 PM
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The most logical reason I can come up with is not dissimilar to what happened IRL during Indyref 1 in 2014, during which the SNP policy was that in the event that they'd won the referendum and we'd achieved independence we'd have followed the Commonwealth model and Queen Elizabeth would have remained the Head of State. Ultimately it's realpolitik - not all Independence supports are republicans so for the SNP to openly come out as pro Republican was - and still is - deemed likely to cost votes. Probably a lot of votes.

So if the Twilight 2000 SNP are trying to act as a legitimate and democratic Government with one eye to the future then there's a case for using the Royal prefix - I could see the SNP leadership plying this sort of line: 'we've been abandoned by the Government in England so we're doing what's best for Scotland in the meantime but we're still loyal to the King - look, our army is even called the Royal Army!'

In other words, they're declaring independence from His Majesty's (British) Government but not His Majesty, who in addition to being the British Monarch is also head of the Commonwealth, which gives a bit of wiggle room.

But it's a big stretch. As a Scot, I think in a T2k scenario the SNP would declare a Republic in a heartbeat, so I don't buy it personally, but I think it's a lot more realistic than a possible Stuart restoration.
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  #38  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:38 PM
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are you going to cover any navy or air assets?
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  #39  
Old 04-27-2017, 12:27 AM
James Langham2 James Langham2 is offline
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are you going to cover any navy or air assets?
Nice idea although there isn't a lot!
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  #40  
Old 04-27-2017, 09:36 AM
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the oil rigs on the north sea would need to be checked out(?), but also Scotland had a long coast line and small islands all around it. maybe small units of sail boats, with weapons and small engine (alcohol powered) to stop pirates, maybe over fishing. salvage protection teams and salvage units. they have to have some wrecked ships end on the beach after storms. Gliders? have no idea if this is workable. but if there should be a few gliders schools with all of those mountains. that is unless the weather in that area is wrong for that kind of thing
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  #41  
Old 04-27-2017, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cawest View Post
are you going to cover any navy or air assets?
Bryn Monnery tried to make sense out of an independent Scottish military. This dates back to late 1990's figures.

Scotland consists of the extreme north of the island of Britain, and many of the islands off the north west. It’s territorial waters extend would 12 miles beyond it’s shores. About 9.6% of the UK’s population are Scottish or of Scottish descent (5.8 million), but the population of Scotland is 5.1 million, which is 8.3% of the total UK population of 61.6 million.

GDP is on a par with the rest of the UK if the oil resources of the North Sea (which are in international, not Scottish waters and may not necessarily be ceded to Scotland, but rather to the BP Corporation, which is registered in London). For the purposes of this document we’ll stipulate that Scotland did indeed get the oil fields and has a GNP of roughly £67.7 billion.

Scottish Army

The British Army has 10 Scottish Regiments. These are in order of precedence:

1) Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Tank Regiment)
2) 19 Regiment, Royal Artillery (Artillery Regiment)
3) 40 Regiment, Royal Artillery (Artillery Regiment)
4) Scots Guards (Infantry Battalion)
5) Royal Scots (Infantry Battalion)
6) Royal Highland Fusiliers (Infantry Battalion)
7) King’s Own Scots Borderers (Infantry Battalion)
8) The Black Watch (Infantry Battalion)
9) Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (Infantry Battalion)
10) The Highlanders (Infantry Battalion)

It has been suggested that the Scots Guards would remain as part of the British Army, while the rest would form the core of the new Scottish Army. Currently Scotland does not produce enough soldiers to fill all these regiments, and Ghurkhas, Tongans and Fijians are used to fill out their ranks. They produce sufficient soldiers to fill 4 infantry battalions, and the following amalgamations have been suggested:

1) Royal Scots and KOSB as Royal Scots Borderers
2) Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and The (Queens Own Cameron, Seaforth and Gordon) Highlanders as The (Argyll, Sutherland, Cameron, Seaforth and Gordon) Highlanders

In terms of equipment their share of APC’s would be sufficient for 1 Battalion of Armoured Infantry with Warrior, and another Battalion of Mechanised Infantry with Saxon. The RSDG is currently an Armoured Regiment with 58 Challenger 2 MBT. While the Regiments personnel (400 men) would go to Scotland, major equipment such as this is not held at Regimental level, but rather in a common pool. Their share of British Armour would be 32 Challenger 2 MBT and 16 Scimitar Light Tanks, which fits nicely a structure of 2Armoured and 2 Armoured Recce Squadrons.

The 2 RA Regiments are both AS-90 regiments, but 19 has recently converted from a Light Gun Regiment. Again, these are not entirely Scottish. Scotland's share of the Artillery units would be 15 AS-90, 3 MLRS and 5 Light Guns (grouped together as a single Field Artillery Regiment). Their share of Air Defence equipment would be 39 Javelin/ Starstreak units (mostly Javelins, I’ll assume Javelin) and 4 Rapier units.

There is currently 1 regular brigade based in Scotland, 52 (Infantry) Brigade, which controls regular infantry battalions in Edinburgh, but also Preston and Chester in England.

Territorial Army units stationed in Scotland would become part of the Scottish TA. These are:

HQ 51 (Scottish) Brigade
A (Ayrshire) and C (Fife and Fofar) Squadrons, The Queens’ Own Yeomanry (Land Rover Mounted Recce units) (100 men each)
207 and 212 Batteries, Royal Artillery (Artillery Batteries (100 men each)
102 Field Squadron, RE (Engineer Squadron (100 men)
32 Signals Regiment, RSigs (Communications Battalion (500 men)
Lowland Volunteers (TA Infantry Battalion (500 men)
Highland Volunteers (TA Infantry Battalion, (500 men)
Scottish Transport Regiment, RLC (Logistics Regiment (500 men)
Squadron of 23 SAS (Reserve Special Forces, (70 men)
15 Company of 4th Battalion, the Parachute Regiment (Airborne Infantry Company) (100 men)
205 Field Ambulance (Medical Battalion) and 255 Medical Squadron (Company)

This gives the corps of a 2nd Brigade, consisting mainly of territorials.


Scottish Army

Army Level Units
Scottish SS Regiment (Special Services, mix of Reserve and Regular Para’s, Marines and SAS)

Artillery
207/212 Area Air Defence Battery (V) (4 Rapiers)
19 Field Regiment (3 MLRS and 15 AS-90, organised into 2 close support batteries with 6x AS-90 and 1x Depth Fire Battery with a troop of 3 MLRS and a troop of 3x AS-90 Braveheart)
40 Air Defence Regiment (36 Javelin)

51 Mechanised Brigade
Scots Dragoon Guards (1 Armoured Recce Squadron of 8x Scimtar and 2 Tank Squadrons of 14x Challenger 2)
Scots Borderers (Armoured Infantry Battalion with Warrior)
The Highlanders (Mechanised Infantry Battalion with Saxon)
Black Watch (Regular Light Infantry Battalion)

52 Infantry Brigade
Scottish Yeomanry (1 Armoured Recce Squadron with 8x Scimitar and 2 Recce Squadrons with Land Rovers, all reserve)
Highland Fusiliers (Regular Light Infantry Battalion)
The Lowland Volunteers (Reserve Light Infantry Battalion)
The Highland Volunteers (Reserve Light Infantry Battalion)

Plus the necessary support units. The regular army is around 9,250 regular soldiers backed up by around 3,200 reservists


The Scottish Navy

Currently the British strategic deterrent is based in Scotland, but this doesn’t mean it will be handed over to Scotland. The Submarine Fleet is 11 nuclear boats, and handing one of these over would cause apoplexy, especially as the SNP doesn’t want nuclear powered vessels. The Carriers, Assault ships etc. would be retained by the Anglo-Irish state.

Scotland's share of the navy would be 3 vessels of the Destroyer-Frigate force and 2 Minehunters. Maybe one of the assault ships too. None of these are particularly useful for the Scottish Navy, and maybe they could use them as bargaining chips with the Anglo-Irish state for some more useful vessels like fisheries patrol craft.

Scottish Navy

ex-HMS Sheffield (Type 22/2 Frigate)
ex-HMS Coventry (Type 22/2 Frigate)
ex-HMS Cardiff (Type 42 Destroyer)
ex-HMS Brecon (Hunt class Minesweeper)
ex-HMS Ladbury (Hunt class Minesweeper)

The crews of these vessels would consist of 1,062 officers and men. The total force is around 3,500 men strong.


The Scottish Air Force

There are current 14 combat squadrons in the RAF. Scotland’s share would be a single combat squadron of 12 aircraft, probably the older Jaguars. Their share of the support force would be a single transport squadron with 4 Hercules, and 2 KC-10 tankers. Maritime Command has 3 squadrons of Nimrods assigned to the GIUK gap in Kinloss. It would be legitimate for one of these to be transferred to the Scottish Airforce.

Of the Helicopter force, 2 Chinooks would be transferred to the Scots, along with 3 Wessex. The Army Helicopter force would also hand over 9 Lynx and 9 Gazelle.

Scottish Airforce

1 Fighter Squadron (12x Jaguar)
1 Transport Squadron (4 Hercules and 2 KC-10)
1 Maritime Patrol Squadron (8 Nimrod)
1 Army Support Helicopter Regiment (2 Chinook, 9 Lynx, 9 Gazelle)

It would be around 2,500 men strong.

This of course is all pre-Twilight War.
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  #42  
Old 04-27-2017, 03:30 PM
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Bryn Monnery tried to make sense out of an independent Scottish military. This dates back to late 1990's figures.
FWIW, in Indyref 1 in 2014 the SNP proposals for an Independent Scottish Armed Forces were based on Scotland getting the following 'share' of UK resources:

Total manpower of 20,000 (all services) - 15,000 Regular, 5,000 Reserve - which would have manned:
4 x Frigates
Unspecified number of smaller vessels
16 x Typhoons
Unspecified number of transport aircraft / helicopters
2 x Army Brigades (1 Regular, 1 Reserve)

It should be noted that these were the SNP proposals - effectively a 'wish list'. At no point did the UK Government ever confirm that we would actually get any of the above (I seem to recall various articles that speculated that it was highly unlikely we would get any Typhoons, the best we could hope for were Hawks). AFAIK there was no expectation that we'd get any Challengers - the heaviest armour we were expecting was Scorpions / Scimitars.

I also think manpower would have been a challenge, particularly as I think a lot of people looking for a long term military career would opt to serve in the British Armed Forces.

The proposed annual defence budget was 2.5 Billion Sterling, which would have equated to approx 1.7% of GDP. An independent Scotland would have sought NATO membership (like EU membership there was some debate as to whether we would have to apply as a new member or not).

Again, this is all IRL, so not relevant to T2K, but it looks as though Bryn's numbers weren't too far out.
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  #43  
Old 04-27-2017, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Rainbow Six View Post
FWIW, in Indyref 1 in 2014 the SNP proposals for an Independent Scottish Armed Forces were based on Scotland getting the following 'share' of UK resources:

Total manpower of 20,000 (all services) - 15,000 Regular, 5,000 Reserve - which would have manned:
4 x Frigates
Unspecified number of smaller vessels
16 x Typhoons
Unspecified number of transport aircraft / helicopters
2 x Army Brigades (1 Regular, 1 Reserve)

It should be noted that these were the SNP proposals - effectively a 'wish list'. At no point did the UK Government ever confirm that we would actually get any of the above (I seem to recall various articles that speculated that it was highly unlikely we would get any Typhoons, the best we could hope for were Hawks). AFAIK there was no expectation that we'd get any Challengers - the heaviest armour we were expecting was Scorpions / Scimitars.

I also think manpower would have been a challenge, particularly as I think a lot of people looking for a long term military career would opt to serve in the British Armed Forces.

The proposed annual defence budget was 2.5 Billion Sterling, which would have equated to approx 1.7% of GDP. An independent Scotland would have sought NATO membership (like EU membership there was some debate as to whether we would have to apply as a new member or not).

Again, this is all IRL, so not relevant to T2K, but it looks as though Bryn's numbers weren't too far out.

Rainbow Six if you want an idea of how an independent Scottish military would be organised and armed you just need to look at the armed forces of the Republic of Ireland. Both countries are very similar in almost every way, even by racial and cultural comparison. Scotland has a slightly larger population than the ROI, but it would be a bit smaller than a United Ireland.

Republic of Ireland had an economy of US$ 227 billion and spent about 1 billion on defence in 2015. It had 9,100 active and 2,600 reserves in all forces.

The Army is organised into two brigades with some independent regiments, battalions and companies. No tanks (except 14 Scorpion), just over 100 APC and armed recce vehicles, 24 light artillery guns, infantry support weapons and some MANPADS and AA guns.

The Air Force has no combat capability whatsoever except for 7 PC-9 turboprops which can be armed with a gun or rocket pod. Transport and marine patrol handled by just 2 CN-235's. Other aircraft include 1 Gulfstream GIV (sold), 1 Learjet 45, 5 Cessna FR-172H and just 6 AW139 helicopters to support the whole Army

The Navy has 9 Fishery Patrol Vessels, and some are due to be retired. These could be classed as corvettes or maybe small frigates due to their dimensions, but they have no anti-aircraft or ASW missiles or weapons at all. Most potent weapon in Irish naval service is the 76mm cannon.

Add to this the Irish police force (unarmed in the main), two police helicopters and some SAR helicopters operated by a British based company to support the Irish Navy in coast guard duties and that is it.

I think an SNP dominated Scotland would be fielding a military very like this, as if you take the British big power mentality or its global policy or ego out of Scottish defence equation what do you have left? The SNP attitude or policy on defence is minimal. ie lightly armed self defence force, with police support and fishery protection capabilities. Nothing else.

Even if Scotland was to retain some frigates, Typhoons and Challengers tanks I doubt the SNP would want or could afford to keep them. Also the only thing that Scotland now manufactures for the British armed forces is ships, and the only thing that Scottish shipyards now really build are warships for the Royal Navy. New fishery patrol ships for a new Scottish Navy are not going to keep the Scottish shipbuilding industry afloat, although McTaggart Scott still makes components for British and American nuclear submarines. I don't know why the SNP threw in NATO membership for an independent Scotland, maybe it was an afterthought to appeal to British ex-servicemen and their families in Scotland.
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  #44  
Old 04-28-2017, 09:54 AM
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Rainbow Six if you want an idea of how an independent Scottish military would be organised and armed you just need to look at the armed forces of the Republic of Ireland. Both countries are very similar in almost every way, even by racial and cultural comparison. Scotland has a slightly larger population than the ROI, but it would be a bit smaller than a United Ireland.
Yeah, I agree that’s a pretty good comparison.

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Even if Scotland was to retain some frigates, Typhoons and Challengers tanks I doubt the SNP would want or could afford to keep them.
As I said upthread, afaik there was never any intent to retain any MBT’s. The heaviest armour the SNP were after were CVR(T)’s. The Typhoons were a slightly different matter. Remember what I posted upthread was the SNP ‘want’ list. I don’t think there was ever a realistic chance of us getting any Typhoons – or Tornados for that matter – but at I think least one Squadron of Hawks would have been a possibility, probably based at Leuchars. I’m aware that the Hawk is not a front line fighter aircraft but it would have allowed us to claim that our Air Force had some sort of air defence capability, however limited that might have been. In other words, we would have asked for Typhoons but settled for Hawks. If we’d started off asking for Hawks we’d have probably got Tucanos.

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I don't know why the SNP threw in NATO membership for an independent Scotland, maybe it was an afterthought to appeal to British ex-servicemen and their families in Scotland.
Same reason they wanted to keep the Queen as Head of State – to win votes. If we could have retained NATO membership relatively smoothly it might have also been used as ammunition when it came to making a case for also retaining EU Membership, but I’m speculating on that one.
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  #45  
Old 04-28-2017, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by James Langham2 View Post
I tried to avoid the term SAS as I wanted it to try and distance itself a little from the British Army (hence the name changes)
What about using the term ranger?
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  #46  
Old 04-28-2017, 10:39 AM
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What about using the term ranger?
That would be an unpopular choice in some areas.
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  #47  
Old 04-28-2017, 11:06 AM
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That would be an unpopular choice in some areas.
Yup the entire east of Glasgow, and also the Hiberno-Scottish who I think by descent make up 20% of Scotland population and much of the SNP's voting block.
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  #48  
Old 04-30-2017, 09:31 PM
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RAF Prestwick (now HMS Gannet) had a Sea King SAR flight of 2 or 3 aircraft that might have been kept in Scotland.
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