Out of Mothballs: Antiquated Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Brit]

The Karabiner 98k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k

I think it is mentioned in 'The Ruins of Warsaw' as the weapon carried by militia sections? Plus, just too many about to not be in use. Weren't captured WWII ones put up for sale a while back by the Soviets / USSR / agents / ? from warehouses in the Soviet Union / Russia - cannot remember if it was pre / post - and people in the USA were buying them?

Ditto: There must be a lot of Lee Enfield SMLEs about all over the world plus copies/ In fact a photo here of a "SMLE owned by Maoist rebels in Nepal, 2005".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee%E2...93Enfield_Mk_I

Before the T2K period, but... https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/...atollahs-iran/ But probably not all thrown away / lost / scrapped...

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Brit

The Karabiner 98k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k

I think it is mentioned in 'The Ruins of Warsaw' as the weapon carried by militia sections? Plus, just too many about to not be in use. Weren't captured WWII ones put up for sale a while back by the Soviets / USSR / agents / ? from warehouses in the Soviet Union / Russia - cannot remember if it was pre / post - and people in the USA were buying them?

Good call. And I think we'd see the same thing with the Mosin-Nagant. The Soviets/Russians had huge stockpiles. IIRC, they only started to flood the civilian market here in the States (you could get one at a sporting goods store for $100) after the dissolution of the USSR, when the Russians were doing whatever they could to bring in hard currency from the west. That wouldn't have happened in the v1 or v4 T2kUs.

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[Brit]

If this is up-to-date they are still in military use.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%...world-wide_use

Have not read it all so "buyer beware": http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/filea...pter-06-EN.pdf

Re: 'The Ruins of Warsaw' they are descibed as 'Mausers'. I added two and two... Page 13 plus (?)

[3catcircus]

Besides antiquated kit in modern times, it's also extremely useful for alternate history WW2, Vietnam, Korea, British Malay, etc. past skirmish games.

More important than the kit - how about the music? One can't deny that wars are culturally defined in part by the music of the times (or that the time produces the music.) Likewise the food. Hawaii wouldn't know spam without war, for example ...

[Matt Wiser]

Just remember: if it can still kill you, it's not obsolete. A well placed 76-mm from an Easy Eight Sherman or an 85-mm from a T-34/85 can still ruin your day.

[Brit]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Just remember: if it can still kill you, it's not obsolete.

Going way back...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_...rmoryLeeds.JPG
Seems the collection at Leeds, UK, opened in 1995 so late for the T2K period but it, or similar, must be elsewhere...

Are there any (large) collections of ACW period weapons 'that work' in US collections / museums? Even if the musket isn't working the bayonet would.
Maybe a re-enactment society could stay together for self-protection?

This could make a different Militia / Local Defence unit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atholl_Highlanders
"Although it has no official military role, this hand-picked body of local men are armed with Lee Metford rifles, and the regiment includes a pipe band".

[rcaf_777]

"To join the Atholl Highlanders, an invitation must be made from the Duke, who specially selects people with ties to the estate or the local area."

https://blair-castle.co.uk/scottish-...ade-gathering/

The 10th Duke of Atholl died on 27th February 1996. His funeral was held in the ballroom of Blair Castle. After the service, six Highlanders acted as pallbearers, others provided the carriage party and lined the route to the Castle graveyard at Old Blair.

It was feared that the regiment would be disbanded following the 10th Duke’s death in 1996, until his successor, JOHN MURRAY, 11TH DUKE OF ATHOLL, wrote to the estate trustees accepting an invitation to continue his traditional role.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Just remember: if it can still kill you, it's not obsolete. A well placed 76-mm from an Easy Eight Sherman or an 85-mm from a T-34/85 can still ruin your day.

That's bit too vague for a proper definition. Can a Sherman still kill "you" personally? Yes of course. But can it fulfill the role of an MBT on a modern battlefield? Certainly not, as it was designed before the MBT role had been defined and is by now an 80 old design. That certainly makes it obsolete as a weapon on a modern battlefield. Otherwise, by your definition, sticks and stones would also still be non-obsolete weapons.

As for a Twilight 2000 setting: Well, if no-one has working tanks for dozens of kilometers than a Sherman in running condition, fueled up and stacked with ammunition is as good as it was in the 1940s. Rifles, handgrenades and automatic weapons haven't changed that much. But beware of someone pulling out a Carl Gustaf. It's from the same decade, but at 400 meters it's going to go right through that Sherman.

[micromachine]

I can see some of the more common antiquated vehicles being reactivated as there are few if any electrical components to be maintained, and most of the mechanical systems can be maintained by an automotive garage or a heavy equipment workshop. Both of these places will have the capabilty to custom fabricate parts, assuming of course they have people with the required skills.
Engines, running gear and POL will be a major headache as well, and the manuals for these vehicles will be long gone, so repacement and repair will be a major case of improvisation.
Ammunition will of course be a large problem, however, a tank with a coaxial machine gun and a pintle mounted machine gun is still something to respect if you have limited antitank equipment. I can see some real "franken weapons" coming into service as the modern spares and hanger queens are used up to make good on battlefield losses. Picture a demilled Sherman tank with a ball mounted M1919, Bofors 40mm gun in lieu of the 75mm gun, an M60 pintlle mount, and a M40 recoiless rifle mounted on the turret bustle as part of the rapid reaction force of a cantonment.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Good call. And I think we'd see the same thing with the Mosin-Nagant. The Soviets/Russians had huge stockpiles. IIRC, they only started to flood the civilian market here in the States (you could get one at a sporting goods store for $100) after the dissolution of the USSR, when the Russians were doing whatever they could to bring in hard currency from the west. That wouldn't have happened in the v1 or v4 T2kUs.

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There would have been three-line rifles floating around from the era between the World Wars. Approximately 280,000 Remington and Westinghouse Mosins were bought by the US government after the Russian Revolution to keep those companies from going bankrupt, and while 50,000 were left in Russia after the Polar Bear Expedition departed, the remainder were sold as surplus for ~$3.50 each. Some were bought by a reseller and converted to .30-06 (which the rifle didn't handle well), but many if not most were sold by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship in their original chambering.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

There would have been three-line rifles floating around from the era between the World Wars. Approximately 280,000 Remington and Westinghouse Mosins were bought by the US government after the Russian Revolution to keep those companies from going bankrupt, and while 50,000 were left in Russia after the Polar Bear Expedition departed, the remainder were sold as surplus for ~$3.50 each. Some were bought by a reseller and converted to .30-06 (which the rifle didn't handle well), but many if not most were sold by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship in their original chambering.

Thanks, Vespers. I had no idea that US companies ever manufactured Mosins. I did a bit of following up and found this:

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/04/the...#axzz6wViyizdh

Nearly a million Mosins made in the USA! Looks like most of them got shipped overseas during the interwar years (Czechoslovakia, White Russia, Mexico, Spain via Finland), so one might encounter American Mosins just about anywhere in the T2kU.

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[Brit]

Not sure if this is right for here, or if it should be on the 'Frackentank thread', etc, but...

And not even sure if the T-55 counts as "antiquated" in T2K...

"T-55 chassis fitted with S-60 57 mm gun in Iraq".
https://armamentresearch.com/t-55-ch...m-gun-in-iraq/

T-55 + AA gun.
https://www.whatifmodellers.com/inde...3760.0#topic-1
https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=33760.0

Also, I think a similar vehicle has been posted here before (?)
https://thearabweekly.com/hezbollah-...ry-might-syria

I make models but, although, I look at the vehicles "that are"... I prefer "The T2K War that never was" hence the 'research'.

"And in other news"...

Has anyone one heard of this vehicle before? News to me. I don't believe Paul has 'stated' it... apologies if to Paul if he has:
https://www.butlersprintedmodels.co....ereh-20mm.html

And this could ruin your entire day:
https://www.butlersprintedmodels.co....5-aa-20mm.html

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Brit

Not sure if this is right for here, or if it should be on the 'Frackentank thread', etc, but...

And not even sure if the T-55 counts as "antiquated" in T2K...

"T-55 chassis fitted with S-60 57 mm gun in Iraq".
https://armamentresearch.com/t-55-ch...m-gun-in-iraq/

T-55 + AA gun.
https://www.whatifmodellers.com/inde...3760.0#topic-1
https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=33760.0

Also, I think a similar vehicle has been posted here before (?)
https://thearabweekly.com/hezbollah-...ry-might-syria

Don't forget the Finnish T-55 Marksman
https://weaponsystems.net/system/426-T-55+Marksman
http://www.military-today.com/artillery/marksman.htm

Originally Posted by Brit

Has anyone one heard of this vehicle before? News to me. I don't believe Paul has 'stated' it... apologies if to Paul if he has:
https://www.butlersprintedmodels.co....ereh-20mm.html

http://www.military-today.com/missiles/pere.htm

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Brit

And not even sure if the T-55 counts as "antiquated" in T2K...

I wouldn't necessarily say so. One might differ on the semantics of obsolete vs. obsolescent, but most of the Warsaw Pact armies outside the USSR hat T-54s, T-55s and their various homebrew modernizations still in active frontline service. Given, not necessarily in the first tier divisions, but still very much in always active divisions. I think, Bulgaria even had T-34s in their Category C divisions.

[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Brit

Has anyone one heard of this vehicle before? News to me. I don't believe Paul has 'stated' it... apologies if to Paul if he has:
https://www.butlersprintedmodels.co....ereh-20mm.html

The Pereh was one of Israel's best kept secrets for about three decades. They started fielding it in the 80s and declassified it in 2015, when it was phased out. That took about until 2017.

The Pereh ("Onager") was based on the Magach 5, i. e. M48 chassis, fitted with 12 Spike NLOS ATGM (range ca. 25 km). The missile itself was not known to the public until 2011. The gun kept a dummy gun to make it look less suspicious, but secondary armament encompassed only two FN MAGs as machine-guns, though additional front armor was used.

The Pereh is probably the best bang for your M48-bucks you could get. The Spike NLOS was recently bought bought by the UK and ordered by the US (in 2020). So it's still very much in the game.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

The Pereh was one of Israel's best kept secrets for about three decades. They started fielding it in the 80s and declassified it in 2015, when it was phased out. That took about until 2017.

The Pereh ("Onager") was based on the Magach 5, i. e. M48 chassis, fitted with 12 Spike NLOS ATGM (range ca. 25 km). The missile itself was not known to the public until 2011. The gun kept a dummy gun to make it look less suspicious, but secondary armament encompassed only two FN MAGs as machine-guns, though additional front armor was used.

The Pereh is probably the best bang for your M48-bucks you could get. The Spike NLOS was recently bought bought by the UK and ordered by the US (in 2020). So it's still very much in the game.

It's possibly worth noting that the UK received two different versions of Spike NLOS. The UK's Exactor-1 is the Spike NLOS Mk.2, and the Exactor-2 is the Spike NLOS Mk.5. The latter is the newest version, which has different airfoils from the other 4 versions, but other than that I haven't been able to find any descriptions of differences between the various marks.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Brit

Has anyone one heard of this vehicle before? News to me. I don't believe Paul has 'stated' it... apologies if to Paul if he has:
https://www.butlersprintedmodels.co....ereh-20mm.html

I retained my security clearance until 2005 (tell me how that happened -- the Army is slooow sometimes, but if I had been dangerous...). However, though I did know about the Pereh, I would not have statted something I knew was classified.

[bash]

I'm no expert but it seems like the time and resource investment restoring mothballed vehicles would be better spent upgrading non-combat military vehicles or civilian vehicles for combat use.

If you've got a couple one-off oddball vehicles you're not likely to have any part donors or spare parts in general. When they break down or are damaged all the work you've put in will probably be wasted. The question of ammo is also really important.

Without spare treads your museum tank is just an armored gun emplacement. Without main gun ammo it's just an HMG emplacement. A bunch of sand bags could do the same job with fewer resources.

Turning some 6x6s into gun trucks or welding some pintle mounts to the rollbars on some Hiluxes seems like more bang for the buck. Parts are likely easier to find, the endurance is better, and for the same investment of resources you could get several vehicles outfitted.