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Old 12-28-2017, 04:07 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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I've been running Damocles and we have mentioned the machine intelligence in some other threads. I went back and looked into canon in the modules. From canon Damocles was netted into NORAD and did have full data on every warhead that entered North American airspace. Now I wonder how possible this was, but according to canon this was the situation.

Damocles was even issuing orders to Project assets (ruins of Chicago).

So Damocles had the full data set on incoming warheads and impact points and probably had the full inventory of US weapons and what was launched and what was not. I don't think he has launch codes, but if anything in the world at the point of MP activation could figure out how to launch it would be damocles, if he chose to do so.

Here is an interesting aspect that came up in play and that I had to work on, on the fly. If Damocles makes contact with the Snake Eaters what would his relationship with them be? As the highest surviving ranking officers would the snake eater CO be able to issue orders to Damocles? If not why not? He's an asset of the US military. There is no other existing command authority. I made a snap decision that Damocles has a commission in the air force as a full bird colonel.

Let the discussion begin!
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:17 PM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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With Damocles hooked into NORAD, I can see it being able to download a large portion of target sites, but with EMP, loss of military facilities, then I can see less and less information on later strikes. Maybe it's me, but I like to keep at least some surprises for the team's.

A far as Damocles being able to direct Project teams and the Snake Eaters, this one is going to have to be played carefully. It would not matter 'who' was giving the orders, as long as they had the correct encryptions and passwords to "confirm" that they were in a position of authority. For the Project, you would need an Area Administrator or higher to provide their passwords. For the Snake Eaters, then their CEOIs would have to match with what was being sent to them. It wouldn't matter as far as rank goes, if a higher headquarters passed an authenticated message, that meet with the expected message, chances would be good that the Snake Eaters might not query the message.

My three cents!
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:18 PM
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No.

Damocles answers to National Command Authority, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, The Secretary of Defense, Strategic Missile Command, and the Chain of Command for a Missile Defense Wing (Experimental).

Snake Eaters are an Army unit under Special Operations Command. A Captain or Major (Leader of an Operation Detachment Alpha) is too junior to have the authority.

Damocles would render assistance to a limited degree and on a need to know basis to the ODA Commander. Things like Communications relay, contact with surviving forces, direct the ODA to a surviving DoD asset (common station). Damocles probably would not disclose his location (operational security) or off direct material support.

This all assumes the Damocles bunker has been penetrated and Damocles successfully reset taking him out of "game mode".

Damocles awareness of nuclear weapons tracks, strikes, misses, and duds are from surviving radar tracking and government and private seismograph researh as xonnexted to DarpaNet and AutoVon.
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:57 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Originally Posted by dragoon500ly View Post

A far as Damocles being able to direct Project teams and the Snake Eaters, this one is going to have to be played carefully. It would not matter 'who' was giving the orders, as long as they had the correct encryptions and passwords to "confirm" that they were in a position of authority. For the Project, you would need an Area Administrator or higher to provide their passwords.
My three cents!
Talk to the old TL crew. Ruins of Chicago starts with a message from Damocles, its canon
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:14 PM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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Last time I got into this, there was a serious flame war in PM...

IMHO, Damocles would have been hooked up to only receive downloads from NORAD, I sincerely doubt that any experimental computer would have been allowed to transmit over secure communications, especially with any connection to nuclear forces.

I have never been happy with this module. Don't like it, feel that it's premise is weak and lacking a realistic basis. Your views may vary and all power to you.

The issue, as I see it, is how Damocles would be used to give orders to Project/Snake Eaters in the field, the only way I can see this is if Damocles is provided encryption keys and passwords to access the team's security commo. Provided the correct protocols are provided, then Damocles can be used to give orders to the field teams. However, these orders would have to follow the established format, hence the orders directing the team to search for a nuclear warhead at a certain lat/long should have warned the team that their commo was comprised since the team's AutoNavs do not provide lat/long info.

If a newly awakened Snake Eater team, tried contacting their B-Team and had no response, but someone identifying itself as the C-Team comes up on a known freq, with matching encryption, provides a correct password to 'confirm' it's I'D and advises the ODA that SIGINT reports a possible Morrow team at grid xxx/nutty, and orders the ODA to conduct a reconnaissance, but not to contact, why would the ODA question this order? It's been authenticated, and matches the ODA's pre-War planning.
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
Talk to the old TL crew. Ruins of Chicago starts with a message from Damocles, its canon
It is also a plot hole. The Science Team attempting to get Damocles on their side has no idea who is located in or around Chicago. Damocles would not have that information either. Possibly he may have the Snake Eaters location, callsigns, and Activation code. The Snake Eater being a DoD asset.

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Old 12-28-2017, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dragoon500ly View Post
The issue, as I see it, is how Damocles would be used to give orders to Project/Snake Eaters in the field, the only way I can see this is if Damocles is provided encryption keys and passwords to access the team's security commo. Provided the correct protocols are provided, then Damocles can be used to give orders to the field teams. However, these orders would have to follow the established format, hence the orders directing the team to search for a nuclear warhead at a certain lat/long should have warned the team that their commo was comprised since the team's AutoNavs do not provide lat/long info.

If a newly awakened Snake Eater team, tried contacting their B-Team and had no response, but someone identifying itself as the C-Team comes up on a known freq, with matching encryption, provides a correct password to 'confirm' it's I'D and advises the ODA that SIGINT reports a possible Morrow team at grid xxx/nutty, and orders the ODA to conduct a reconnaissance, but not to contact, why would the ODA question this order? It's been authenticated, and matches the ODA's pre-War planning.
Agreed. Though I think some of the problems is that you and I have experience with Communications Security and a CEOI doing authentications on Secure Radio Networks.

Not something the average gamer has ever encountered.

Probably a write up of this military doctrine is in order. If only to clarify our point.
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:40 PM
cosmicfish cosmicfish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsofian View Post
If Damocles makes contact with the Snake Eaters what would his relationship with them be? As the highest surviving ranking officers would the snake eater CO be able to issue orders to Damocles? If not why not? He's an asset of the US military. There is no other existing command authority. I made a snap decision that Damocles has a commission in the air force as a full bird colonel.
I see no reason for an experimental AI to have any conventional authority whatsoever. It is a tool, albeit a smart one. Giving it narrow authority under specific circumstances is no different than setting up any automated system, but general authority akin to a commission is something else entirely.

It could of course imitate authority, but that is a different matter. Damocles has no real moral code, it could easily imitate nearly any level of authority for the US military, possibly including voice synthesis (with questionable possibility of success). But it would also be wary of doing so for the simple reason that it has the potential to attract attention that could compromise it.

Let's say it gives an order to a Snake Eater team using the identity if a Colonel. What happens when the team wants to meet him? What happens when the team needs clarification beyond what text can provide? Will they realize they have been tricked? Will they attempt to track down the source? Snake Eaters are the opposite of idiots - the gain should be worth the risk.
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:46 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post

It could of course imitate authority, but that is a different matter. Damocles has no real moral code,
Damocles is an AI that can pass a Turing test. Why would you suppose it has no moral code? Would it not be given a moral education as well as an intellectual one?

Also Damocles is quite likely bound by US law, including the UCMJ. As a DoD asset could he imitate authority? That would be against regulations.
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Old 12-31-2017, 01:53 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Originally Posted by dragoon500ly View Post
However, these orders would have to follow the established format, hence the orders directing the team to search for a nuclear warhead at a certain lat/long should have warned the team that their commo was comprised since the team's AutoNavs do not provide lat/long info.
Where is it written that autonavs don't provide Lat/Long? That would be even more silly than a lot of other things TL Published over the years!

"Nope, our navigational systems will not interface with the one universally accepted system on planet Earth."

I don't recall ever seeing that but it could be true!
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Old 12-31-2017, 06:48 PM
tsofian tsofian is offline
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Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
No.

Damocles answers to National Command Authority, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, The Secretary of Defense, Strategic Missile Command, and the Chain of Command for a Missile Defense Wing (Experimental).

Snake Eaters are an Army unit under Special Operations Command. A Captain or Major (Leader of an Operation Detachment Alpha) is too junior to have the authority.
There are US military there are two kinds of authority Command and General

http://www.armystudyguide.com/conten...y-of-nco.shtml

"Command authority is the authority leaders have over soldiers by virtue of rank or assignment. Command authority originates with the President and may be supplemented by law or regulation. Even though it is called “command” authority, it is not limited to officers – you have command authority inherent in your leadership position as a tank commander or team leader, for example. Noncommissioned officers’ command authority is inherent with the job by virtue of position to direct or control soldiers.

Leading soldiers includes the authority to organize, direct and control your assigned soldiers so that they accomplish assigned missions. It also includes authority to use assigned equipment and resources to accomplish your missions. Remember that this only applies to soldiers and facilities in your unit. For example, if the platoon sergeant of first platoon goes on leave and a squad leader is put in charge, that squad leader has command authority over only first platoon, until he is relieved from the responsibility. The soldiers in first platoon will obey the squad leader’s orders due to his position. However, the squad leader does not have command authority over another platoon.

General military authority is authority extended to all soldiers to take action and act in the absence of a unit leader or other designated authority. It originates in oaths of office, law, rank structure, traditions and regulations. This broad-based authority also allows leaders to take appropriate corrective actions whenever a member of any armed service, anywhere, commits an act involving a breach of good order or discipline. For example, if you see soldiers in a brawl, you have the general military authority (and the obligation) to stop the fight. This authority applies even if none of the soldiers are in your unit.

General military authority exists whether you are on duty or not, in uniform or in civilian attire and regardless of location. For example, you are off duty, in civilian clothes and in the PX and you see a soldier in uniform with his headgear raised up and trousers unbloused. You stop the soldier immediately, identify yourself and ensure the soldier understands and makes the necessary corrections. If he refuses, saying you don’t have the authority to tell him what to do because he’s not in your NCO support channel, the soldier is wrong."


In MP Command Authority will be gone above a very low level for the Snake Eaters (and everyone else). Everything is going to come down to General Military Authority. To my understanding it rank is rank, branch doesn't matter (with the exception of some oddball things like Navy Limited Duty Officers). It goes from Five Star Generals to E-1s. If everything went to Hell in a handbasket and a bunch of military types found themselves thrown together command would fall to the highest rank. Maybe Special Forces guys would ignore this, but I don't see under what authority they could do so.


The reverse is true. Damocles would be required to accept any surviving military that had general authority (i.e. outranks him) as being able to command him, unless he had pre-existing orders from a higher ranking individual that were still in effect. This might be the case, but it would be difficult to parse any orders from before the wargame and war as being relevant to the current situation. I could see there being a contingency in Damocles orders that under certain circumstances his commission would be activated. If I was a Damocles planner I would do this just for the reasons I stated above. Damocles' commission in the USAF becomes active if he is cut off from all command authority and the US has suffered a devastating attack.

Also if Damocles can launch nuclear weapons he must have specifically and directly delegated authority from the POTUS to do so (I think, launch authority is pretty arcane stuff at times).
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