RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:28 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,757
Default

BAE is still remanufacturing and rebuilding Bradley's and they are building the M109A5 plus for foreign customers as well as the M109 PIM for the US Army. They also are continuing to make M88A2 conversions as well. They retained the ability and the tooling to make new Bradleys and M109's and M88's with the most recent new builds being a series of 8 M88A2's for Iraq.

Oh and it's John Deere by the way.

And you need to add the tank plant for the Stingray which would have been around for sure for the Twilight War as well as new build M8 light tanks at BAE in York.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:32 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,757
Default

And you have the JLG mfg plants in PA that made parts for the MRAP's for Oshkosh as well as material handlers for the military. Those facilities in time of war could easily be converted to make light support and light armored vehicles.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-14-2017, 08:41 AM
CDAT CDAT is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 232
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swaghauler View Post
This is true of Lights and "Y Bodies" (we call them "squats" because they have very low roofs but are as wide as a "B Body" with a 450 truck front end. About 50% of "B Bodies" have Kevlar "liners" that are attached to the inside of the fiberglass hoods. These would become worn and begin to "detach" from the inside of the hood over time. They would then be removed. The "Super B's" were completely armored (these are also used as SWAT vehicles).

a Light would be AV 1 on every location BUT the engine compartment. The engine compartment is UNARMORED (unless an AV 2 bumper guard is installed at the front).

a Squat/Y Body would have AV 2 on the cargo box and AV 1 on the driver's compartment (NIJ Level 3A Kevlar panels in the doors and NIJ Level 3A Lexan windows). The engine compartment is UNARMORED (unless an AV 2 bumper guard is installed at the front).

a B Body would have AV 2 on the passenger and cargo compartments and NIJ Level 3 (rifle) Lexan windows (AV 2) on a 1-3 (1D10) or NIJ Level 3A (AV 1) on 4-10 (1D10). The engine compartment will have NIJ Level 3A side panels under the fiberglass hood on a 1-5 (1D10) and NIJ Level 2 armored mesh over the front of the radiator (AV 1/2). B Bodies seldom have pushbars/bumper guards because the hood opens forward to the front and they can interfere with the opening of the hood.

a Super B will have AV 2 armor everywhere but the hood. The hood will be MADE of Kevlar at NIJ Level 3A (AV 1) in order to save weight. They also have a large "mesh guard" over the radiator that ups the AV to 2 on frontal hits. Push guards are seldom fitted because the hood opens forward and a guard could interfere with opening the hood.

Run Flat Tires: Unlike military run-flats, these will only reduce the severity of a hit by one level (ie a Major hit becomes a Minor hit) for 100km. After that, the tire must roll OVER its Wear Value or fail.

Self Sealing Fluid/Fuel Systems: These will reduce an engine or fuel hit by one level just like run-flats above. The engine sealing system will allow the engine to run for 100km or 30 minutes on a Major hit and the engine will run for 10 minutes on a Destroyed hit IF a roll OVER its Wear Value succeeds.
This may be what they are supposed to have, but after working at the FED for ten years, not a single one from the van sized to the Semi sized had this. So I do not know if they (the private companies) just went cheap or if the standards have changed. Also it was interesting that the larger you went the newer was less reliable then the older.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:50 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
BAE is still remanufacturing and rebuilding Bradley's and they are building the M109A5 plus for foreign customers as well as the M109 PIM for the US Army. They also are continuing to make M88A2 conversions as well. They retained the ability and the tooling to make new Bradleys and M109's and M88's with the most recent new builds being a series of 8 M88A2's for Iraq.
I did say "BAE (AAV-P7, M2/M3 Bradley, M113, M109)". and "BAE (M9 ACE, M88)".

And "Except for the Stryker few if any of these vehicles are currently being built, with other work concentrating on rebuilds and supplying components." which is they are not being mass produced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Oh and it's John Deere by the way.
Thanks that's a typo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
And you need to add the tank plant for the Stingray which would have been around for sure for the Twilight War as well as new build M8 light tanks at BAE in York.
This list is for 2017 not 1997.

I would class Stingray as an armoured vehicle not a tank, and it hasn't been built for about 25 years. The M8 was cancelled in 1997 before it went into production. The Stingray was built by Cadillac Gage now part of Textron and I believe their assembly plant is at Slidell, Louisiana which I listed under armoured vehicles.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:59 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
And you have the JLG mfg plants in PA that made parts for the MRAP's for Oshkosh as well as material handlers for the military. Those facilities in time of war could easily be converted to make light support and light armored vehicles.
I stuck with main assembly line and engine plants only.

There are hundreds more companies and factories that make accessories and components, or who custom build vehicles and chassis from major suppliers. If you want to list them all feel free but I haven't got time to spend the next 2 years looking them all up.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:13 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
I did say "BAE (AAV-P7, M2/M3 Bradley, M113, M109)". and "BAE (M9 ACE, M88)".

And "Except for the Stryker few if any of these vehicles are currently being built, with other work concentrating on rebuilds and supplying components." which is they are not being mass produced.




Thanks that's a typo



This list is for 2017 not 1997.

I would class Stingray as an armoured vehicle not a tank, and it hasn't been built for about 25 years. The M8 was cancelled in 1997 before it went into production. The Stingray was built by Cadillac Gage now part of Textron and I believe their assembly plant is at Slidell, Louisiana which I listed under armoured vehicles.
FYI - the M88A2 production rates have been pretty constant for quite a long - and the Bradley was being remanufactured on a two shift line for almost the entire time I was at BAE - in fact it predated my employment there

it only finally slowed down in 2012-2013 after being that way for years

And a rate of 8 M88A2 per month is what the line was designed for - for that vehicle that is a very good production rate

I am looking at what could be done during the Twilight War time period - which is why vehicles like the M8 and the Stingray need to be figured in
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:17 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
I stuck with main assembly line and engine plants only.

There are hundreds more companies and factories that make accessories and components, or who custom build vehicles and chassis from major suppliers. If you want to list them all feel free but I haven't got time to spend the next 2 years looking them all up.
JLG in McConnellsburg built half the M-ATV's that Oshkosh delivered - they were building close to 500 vehicles per month

So they definitely need to be added to the light armored vehicle producers if you are looking at current military production sites - it could easily get back to those numbers if need be.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:58 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
FYI - the M88A2 production rates have been pretty constant for quite a long -

And a rate of 8 M88A2 per month is what the line was designed for - for that vehicle that is a very good production rate
FYI I listed the M88 under Heavy Support Vehicles and never made any mention about how and what sort of level it is being produced at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
and the Bradley was being remanufactured on a two shift line for almost the entire time I was at BAE - in fact it predated my employment there it only finally slowed down in 2012-2013 after being that way for years
And I stated that "U.S. armoured vehicles are currently built/rebuilt by General Dynamics, Textron and British owned BAE. General Dynamics (LAV-25, M1120 Stryker), Textron (M117), BAE (AAV-P7, M2/M3 Bradley, M113, M109). Except for the Stryker few if any of these vehicles are currently being built, with other work concentrating on rebuilds and supplying components".

That is pretty much what you are talking about, remanufacture!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
I am looking at what could be done during the Twilight War time period - which is why vehicles like the M8 and the Stingray need to be figured in
Well I listed the current assembly lines and they also existed in 1997, so just add them to it.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:02 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
JLG in McConnellsburg built half the M-ATV's that Oshkosh delivered - they were building close to 500 vehicles per month

So they definitely need to be added to the light armored vehicle producers if you are looking at current military production sites - it could easily get back to those numbers if need be.
Does JLG Industries build the chassis, transmission or engine for the M-ATV? If it does I would include JLG in such a list.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:20 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,757
Default

Description of the JLG work

The work has been split between Oshkosh Defense plants in Wisconsin and JLG’s McConnellsburg plant, with JLG making 100 percent of the MATV cabs and completing 50 percent of the M-ATV assemblies. The remaining half of the assemblies are completed by Oshkosh Defense. This combined effort has produced 1,000 M-ATVs per month since December.

JLG built the cabs and completed the assembly of the vehicle - the engines came from Caterpillar, the chassis came from the Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement (MTVR) chassis that Oshkosh designed and Oshkosh's TAK-4 suspension system and the transmission came from Allison

Which is standard for vehicles - i.e. Oshkosh's assembly plant doesnt build their own engines or transmissions they bring them in and install them just like we did - same for BAE - we didnt build engines or transmissions
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:28 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Description of the JLG work

The work has been split between Oshkosh Defense plants in Wisconsin and JLG’s McConnellsburg plant, with JLG making 100 percent of the MATV cabs and completing 50 percent of the M-ATV assemblies. The remaining half of the assemblies are completed by Oshkosh Defense. This combined effort has produced 1,000 M-ATVs per month since December.

JLG built the cabs and completed the assembly of the vehicle - the engines came from Caterpillar, the chassis came from the Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement (MTVR) chassis that Oshkosh designed and Oshkosh's TAK-4 suspension system and the transmission came from Allison
JLG is a subsidiary of Oshkosh.

It builds the cabs as you have stated, but it is part of the production chain not the main assembly line. There are many other companies across the U.S. and Canada who also build armoured vehicles including MRAP's, and firetrucks, emergency vehicles, construction vehicles, buses etc who are as big or bigger than JLG and who's imput into the completed vehicle is greater. Some even market these vehicles under their own brand name. But they are custom builders not manufacturers, and that is what I would class JLG as.

If you want to list all of these companies then go ahead, I will give you a few dozen names to get you started but I think we are going way beyond the scope of this topic.

To quote the site you used "With Oshkosh beginning to gradually ramp down production of the M-ATV, complete assemblies of the new order for MATVs will take place at Oshkosh Defense plants and not at JLG. 100 percent of the cabs will continue to be made by JLG, however."

So JLG make the cabs but are not the main assembly line.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Which is standard for vehicles - i.e. Oshkosh's assembly plant doesnt build their own engines or transmissions they bring them in and install them just like we did - same for BAE - we didnt build engines or transmissions
Oshkosh doesn't build engines for any of its vehicles. All of their vehicles supplied to the U.S. military use Caterpillar or Detroit Diesel engines. I listed these engine factories.

BAE doesn't make its own engines either, in fact General Dynamics and Textron don't either, they all use Caterpillar, Cummins, Daimler-Benz, Detroit Diesel, Mack and Navistar engines. The M88 built by BAE uses a Continental engine built in America and owned by the Chinese government. In fact I forgot to list Continental so I'll add to the list.

The M1 Abrams also uses a Honeywell engine, but its fitted into the M1 at the main assembly plant at Lima.

The point being that there is a difference between a main assembly line and a custom builder.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 09-14-2017, 03:25 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,757
Default

We did the assembly of the MATV - half of them were built by us - i.e. 100% of the cabs were made by JLG and half the MATV's that were made by Oskhosk were fully assembled by JLG at a rate of 500 per month

Now why would I mention that - because that shows just how quickly production might have ramped up for the war during the Twilight War that a plant that makes material handlers (i.e. telehandlers) was able to convert to build 1000 MATV cabs and fully assembly 500 MATV's a month in a time consistent with ramping up for the Twilight War - meaning that US war production during the Twilight War if it had happened in reality is probably significantly higher than the canon writers allowed for - thus allowing for more replacement armored vehicles than were seen in the canon

its interesting how little of the US military production network was actually hit during the nuclear strikes in the canon - i.e. they hit Toledo but not York PA or San Jose CA (i.e. Bradley, M109, M88) and the aircraft plants were barely touched if at all

you would think that it would have been the Soviets number one target with the refineries being number two - i.e. cutting off oil is important but it takes quite a while to get new aircraft and tank production going if you nuke the existing plants
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:28 PM
Cdnwolf's Avatar
Cdnwolf Cdnwolf is offline
The end is nigh!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,409
Default

http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/sierra-army-depot

How long to bring these back into fitness ready status.
__________________
Each day I encounter stupid people I keep wondering... is today when I get my first assault charge??

Old forum
http://twl2000hh.forumotion.ca/
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:42 PM
WallShadow's Avatar
WallShadow WallShadow is offline
Ephemera of the Big Ka-Boom
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: near TMI
Posts: 460
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnwolf View Post
http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/sierra-army-depot

How long to bring these back into fitness ready status.
I wonder if the folks setting up the Strategic Reserve stashes have packed away a bare-bones M1 remanufacturing kit with lots and lots of spares? Yeah, I know, just a fancy, but nice to dream about.
__________________
"Let's roll." Todd Beamer, aboard United Flight 93 over western Pennsylvania, September 11, 2001.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:31 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
We did the assembly of the MATV - half of them were built by us - i.e. 100% of the cabs were made by JLG and half the MATV's that were made by Oskhosk were fully assembled by JLG at a rate of 500 per month
Olefin what part of the M-ATV was built by BAE or by JLG?

We know that Caterpillar supplied the C7 engine, Allison supplied the 3500 transmission, Marmon Herrington supplied the axle, and Oshkosh supplied the TAK-4 independent suspension system. What did BAE and JLG build by itself or was it all supplied by Oshkosh?

Also were these individual components fitted to a vehicle body when BAE and JLG received them, or were they shipped to BAE and JLG separately and assembled on the vehicle afterwards?

Was the cab an Oshkosh Core1080 crew protection system? Did BAE or JLG make it or did they assemble it in parts? Also did BAE or JLG actually make the armor plates and the ballistic glass or was it shipped to BAE and JLG. If so did BAE or JLG get a license from Plasan the Israeli company who designed the armor kit for the M-ATV and built it in their factory in Bennington Vermont?
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 09-15-2017, 07:27 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,757
Default

JLG buiilt the M-ATV

BAE built MRAP's as well

JLG built the cabs for all the M-ATV's and did the assembly work on half the part total M-ATV's built by Oshkosh, assembling complete vehicles that were ready to be shipped. It wasnt a knock down plant they put the complete vehicle together piece by piece, welding it together and then doing all the assembly of all the various pieces.

Plasan was on site working to assist with building the capsules (which is what we called the cabs) along with supplier and JLG personnel.

So yes during that time period the plant was basically a fully operational light armored vehicle manufacturing facility.

FYI - ballistic armor and glass isnt made by any armored vehicle supplier in the US - that armor and glass comes from suppliers - when I was at BAE we had all our armor plate and ballistic glass shipped in - we didnt make it ourselves.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:25 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Olefin I'm not questioning what you did at BAE or the manufacturing capabilities of York, but I am trying to figure out what JLG's assembly capabilities are at McConnellsburg.

The reason for this is that JLG designs and builds aerial work platforms, telehandlers and stock piling lifts. It is not a vehicle manufacturer or does it have a history of vehicle manufacturing, or is it even a custom vehicle maker in the traditional sense of the word.

You state that JLG fully assembled the M-ATV at McConnellsburg, and in particular the cab (capsule). But were all the component parts already built before they were shipped for assembly or were they built at McConnellsburg?

Assembling a vehicle is a very complicated and costly process, and involves major investment by the manufacturer into an assembly plant including robotic automation.

On automobile assembly lines much of the work is now done by robots rather than humans. In the first stages of automobile manufacture, robots weld the floor pan pieces together and assist workers in placing components such as the suspension onto the chassis. Worker attaches the radiator, and another bolts it into place. Because of the nature of these heavy component parts, articulating robots perform all of the lift and carry operations while assemblers using pneumatic wrenches to bolt component pieces in place

Assembly plants represents only the final phase in the process of manufacturing a vehicle, as all of the thousands of different components supplied by outside suppliers and company-owned parts suppliers are brought together for assembly. Once the component parts are assembled production control specialists track and assign them using vehicle identification numbers, or in some cases a small radio frequency transponder is attached to the chassis and floor pan.

The typical vehicle is constructed from the ground up. The frame forms the base on which the body rests and from which all subsequent assembly components follow. The frame is placed on the assembly line and clamped to the conveyer to prevent shifting as it moves down the line. From here the automobile frame is moved to component assembly areas where complete front and rear suspensions, gas tanks, rear axles and drive shafts, gear boxes, steering box components, wheel drums, and braking systems are installed.

The vehicle's engine is then mated with its transmission, and robotic arms are used to install heavy components inside the engine compartment of the frame.

The floor pan is the largest body component to which a panels and braces will be welded or bolted. As it moves down the assembly line the shell of the vehicle is built. The left and right quarter panels are robotically disengaged from pre-staged shipping containers and placed onto the floor pan, where they are stabilized with positioning fixtures and welded. The front and rear door pillars, roof, and body side panels are assembled in the same fashion. The shell of the automobile assembled in this section of the process lends itself to the use of robots because articulating arms can easily introduce various component braces and panels to the floor pan and perform a high number of weld operations in a time frame and with a degree of accuracy no human workers could ever approach.

The body is built up on a separate assembly line from the chassis. Robots once again perform most of the welding on the various panels, but human workers are necessary to bolt the parts together. Once the body shell is complete, it is attached to an overhead conveyor for the painting process. The multi-step painting process entails inspection, cleaning, undercoat dipping, drying, topcoat spraying, and baking.

Prior to painting, the body must pass through a rigorous inspection process. As the shell exits the cleaning station it goes through more drying, cleaning and painting processes.

The body and chassis assemblies are then mated near the end of the production process. Robotic arms lift the body shell onto the chassis frame, where human workers then bolt the two together. After final components are installed, the vehicle is driven off the assembly line to a quality checkpoint.

This is standard procedure at every major vehicle assembly plant in the world, and the heavier the type of vehicle being built will mean more automation. The fact that we are talking about military vehicles will mean more specification. Obviously some work on military vehicles can only be done by technicians, but component parts still have to be built before they are assembled. If Oshkosh had a contract to build millions or even hundreds of thousands of M-ATV's I could see Oshkosh investing hundreds of millions in developing and expanding JLG's manufacturing and assembling capabilities at McConnellsburg. But less than 10,000 M-ATV's were built, and only a minority of them by JLG.

I'm still finding it hard to list JLG as a major assembly plant.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 09-15-2017, 11:04 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,757
Default

We built 1000 cabs a month - meaning full cabs/capsules with the armor protection system from Plasan

We then used 500 of those cabs/capsules - that we had welded together from component parts that were delivered to us by suppliers just like the transmissions and engines and harnesses etc. were delivered to us - per month into full working and running M-ATV

Thats 9 a shift, 25 to 27 each day, 500 a month - fully assembled and delivered with us building 4000 vehicles in the course of a few months

Sorry but 4000 armored vehicles built from the ground up qualifies you as a major assembly plant - and it shows just what the US would have done during the Twilight War

Now this was in 2009 - so for those playing Twilight 2013 if you are looking at adding a possible armored vehicle supplier adventure to your game then JLG's location in McConnellsburg would be definitely an idea

For those playing the Twilight War timeline it is possible - the plant was there - but we werent owned by Oshkosh - we were making military vehicles but they were just material handlers - but something similar could have been done in the timing of the Twilight War that the facility could have been a military producer

FYI RN - military vehicles arent built like autos are - I know I have worked for two companies now that have built them and neither of them do what auto companies do for assembly
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:28 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
We built 1000 cabs a month - meaning full cabs/capsules with the armor protection system from Plasan

We then used 500 of those cabs/capsules - that we had welded together from component parts that were delivered to us by suppliers just like the transmissions and engines and harnesses etc. were delivered to us - per month into full working and running M-ATV

Thats 9 a shift, 25 to 27 each day, 500 a month - fully assembled and delivered with us building 4000 vehicles in the course of a few months

Sorry but 4000 armored vehicles built from the ground up qualifies you as a major assembly plant - and it shows just what the US would have done during the Twilight War

Now this was in 2009 - so for those playing Twilight 2013 if you are looking at adding a possible armored vehicle supplier adventure to your game then JLG's location in McConnellsburg would be definitely an idea

For those playing the Twilight War timeline it is possible - the plant was there - but we werent owned by Oshkosh - we were making military vehicles but they were just material handlers - but something similar could have been done in the timing of the Twilight War that the facility could have been a military producer

FYI RN - military vehicles arent built like autos are - I know I have worked for two companies now that have built them and neither of them do what auto companies do for assembly
So most of the components including the engine block, transmission, axles and suspension and the other parts were already fully built by Oshkosh and the other suppliers and then shipped to you where you assembled them. Then you assembled the cab and some fittings with the armour and completed the vehicle.

This is exactly what a custom builder would do, although in some cases they also modify the vehicle and fit their own equipment. And this is the point that I am trying to make about JLG. JLG is a custom builder, although I am not implying that BAE at York is also a custom builder.

The fact that JLG assembled a relatively large number of vehicles, certainly more than a custom builder would normally build, is to do with the fact that it was doing so on behalf Oshkosh who funded it. Oshkosh and its main suppliers already built the main components at their own factories and then shipped them to JLG and BAE for assembly. Obviously Oshkosh hadn't got the space at their own production lines to assemble and fit out the M-ATV without a major investment of their existing facilities, so they used JLG (which they bought) and also contracted BAE to do this.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 09-18-2017, 09:11 PM
Cdnwolf's Avatar
Cdnwolf Cdnwolf is offline
The end is nigh!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
Now why would I mention that - because that shows just how quickly production might have ramped up for the war during the Twilight War that a plant that makes material handlers (i.e. telehandlers) was able to convert to build 1000 MATV cabs and fully assembly 500 MATV's a month in a time consistent with ramping up for the Twilight War - meaning that US war production during the Twilight War if it had happened in reality is probably significantly higher than the canon writers allowed for - thus allowing for more replacement armored vehicles than were seen in the canon
The war at the time of the Battle of Kalisz had been going on for 3 years. That uses up a lot of material. Building the product during optimal conditions would account for your numbers but what happens if the plant had no power? Fuel supplies would probably be dwindling. And does anyone know of the total losses to the merchant fleet that was bringing the vehicles to Europe? How many vehicles were lost that way?

Just my two cents.
__________________
Each day I encounter stupid people I keep wondering... is today when I get my first assault charge??

Old forum
http://twl2000hh.forumotion.ca/
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 09-18-2017, 09:24 PM
Cdnwolf's Avatar
Cdnwolf Cdnwolf is offline
The end is nigh!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,409
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
This list is I think a fairly complete list of US (and Canadian) vehicle production facilities. I also have had way to much time on my hands over the past two days!!
The problem with the list is how many were in operation in 1997. General Dynamics didn't start the London Ontario plant until 2003.

The red box was GM Diesel which had owned the lands and buildings at the time and made Locomotives.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Each day I encounter stupid people I keep wondering... is today when I get my first assault charge??

Old forum
http://twl2000hh.forumotion.ca/
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 09-18-2017, 10:27 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
So most of the components including the engine block, transmission, axles and suspension and the other parts were already fully built by Oshkosh and the other suppliers and then shipped to you where you assembled them. Then you assembled the cab and some fittings with the armour and completed the vehicle.

This is exactly what a custom builder would do, although in some cases they also modify the vehicle and fit their own equipment. And this is the point that I am trying to make about JLG. JLG is a custom builder, although I am not implying that BAE at York is also a custom builder.

The fact that JLG assembled a relatively large number of vehicles, certainly more than a custom builder would normally build, is to do with the fact that it was doing so on behalf Oshkosh who funded it. Oshkosh and its main suppliers already built the main components at their own factories and then shipped them to JLG and BAE for assembly. Obviously Oshkosh hadn't got the space at their own production lines to assemble and fit out the M-ATV without a major investment of their existing facilities, so they used JLG (which they bought) and also contracted BAE to do this.
RN7 - you are describing a knock down plant - that is not what JLG did - we built ALL the cabs for the M-ATV that Oshkosh contracted for to the US Govt - i.e. 100% of them - and then we finished the assembly of half of them and sent the other half of the cabs to Oshkosh for them to fully assembly - in other words we assembled the cab and then fitted it out with the engine, transmission, interior, electronics, etc. and built half the M-ATV's that were built by Oshkosh - over 4000 of them

and BAE built their own MRAP's all on their own - they arent part of Oshkosh
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 09-18-2017, 10:32 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 1,757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnwolf View Post
The war at the time of the Battle of Kalisz had been going on for 3 years. That uses up a lot of material. Building the product during optimal conditions would account for your numbers but what happens if the plant had no power? Fuel supplies would probably be dwindling. And does anyone know of the total losses to the merchant fleet that was bringing the vehicles to Europe? How many vehicles were lost that way?

Just my two cents.
we had the plant up and running in less time than it took to go from the US start of being in the war to when the nuke strikes happened in the game - and given the Chinese Russian war most likely the US defense industry would have gone into high gear soon after their war started - even just to be able to supply the Chinese let alone the US

As for shipping material across the ocean yes that is a valid point - but if there was a lot of US war material stuck in the US then they would have made short work of the Mexican Army and any Soviet invaders - frankly the original authors definitely understated the ability of the US to ramp up production and get new vehicles out there let alone get older ones up and running
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 09-19-2017, 12:14 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnwolf View Post
The problem with the list is how many were in operation in 1997. General Dynamics didn't start the London Ontario plant until 2003.

The red box was GM Diesel which had owned the lands and buildings at the time and made Locomotives.

I did state a few posts up that " This list is for 2017 not 1997".

If you want to look up what was about in 1997 and compare it with what's still around in 2017 or what has been shut down or built since 1997 go ahead. While your at do you know what happened to the FMC plant in San Jose California that built the Bradley back in the 1990's?
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 09-19-2017, 12:24 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
RN7 - you are describing a knock down plant - that is not what JLG did - we built ALL the cabs for the M-ATV that Oshkosh contracted for to the US Govt - i.e. 100% of them - and then we finished the assembly of half of them and sent the other half of the cabs to Oshkosh for them to fully assembly - in other words we assembled the cab and then fitted it out with the engine, transmission, interior, electronics, etc. and built half the M-ATV's that were built by Oshkosh - over 4000 of them

and BAE built their own MRAP's all on their own - they arent part of Oshkosh
No Olefin I think I'm describing a custom builder, as I think custom work is the closest resemblance to the work that JLG did with the M-ATV. Its a lot more skilled than a knock down plant and I've been implying that over a few posts, but I do not consider JLG to be a large assembly plant. And I know BAE builds its own MRAPS, I stated it in earlier posts.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 09-19-2017, 12:20 PM
pmulcahy11b's Avatar
pmulcahy11b pmulcahy11b is offline
The Stat Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,742
Default

I think JLG would best be termed an assembler.
__________________
All that stuff we know -- what if we're wrong? --Science Channel

Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 09-19-2017, 12:35 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
I think JLG would best be termed an assembler.
What would be your definition of assembler Paul as I really cant figure out what to class JLG as?
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 09-19-2017, 12:40 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
its interesting how little of the US military production network was actually hit during the nuclear strikes in the canon - i.e. they hit Toledo but not York PA or San Jose CA (i.e. Bradley, M109, M88) and the aircraft plants were barely touched if at all

you would think that it would have been the Soviets number one target with the refineries being number two - i.e. cutting off oil is important but it takes quite a while to get new aircraft and tank production going if you nuke the existing plants
That's a valid point. Soviet nuclear missiles seem to have missed an awful lot of important industrial facilities in America and also in other countries.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 09-19-2017, 01:26 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,060
Default

In regards to 1997 and 2017 there are some major changes in the structure of the North American auto industry.

The U.S. makes the same number of vehicles (12.1 million) in 2017 as it did back in 1997. Canada makes about the same (2.1 million to 2.2 million), while Mexican production has jumped from 1.3 million to 3.5 million. But the share of the domestic producers has fallen dramatically.

In 1997 the Big Three American producers (GM, Ford, Chrysler) built a total of 9.1 million vehicles in the United States, while Navistar, Paccar and Mack built another 200,000 units. In Canada that figure was 1.7 million for 1997 and just over 700,000 units in Mexico.

Today the Big Three American producers share has fallen to 6.4 million, with just over 100,000 for Navistar, Paccar and Mack. Mack incidentally is now owned by Volvo of Sweden. In Canada its fallen to 1.3 million although its risen to nearly 1.7 million in Mexico. Ford actually makes more vehicles in the U.S. than GM does now.

Foreign owned vehicle production (Japanese, German and Korean) has risen in this period. In the U.S. it was 2.4 million in 1997 and is 5.3 million today. In Canada 350,000 units in 1997 and nearly 1 million today, and in Mexico under 550,000 units in 1997 and is over 1.5 million today.

Also the Germans and Swedes own or build a lot of American heavy vehicle production, and the British through BAE own a big chunk of America's military vehicle manufacturing. So fewer auto assembly plants in the U.S today than in 1997, at least American owned ones.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 09-19-2017, 04:53 PM
unkated unkated is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Posts: 349
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnwolf View Post
This was my favorite part: "Pending an anachronistic World War II-style armor clash on the European plains....."

... since that's exactly what we're talking about.

Uncle Ted
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.