Morrow Aviation Assets

[kato13]

Gamer,

While I think you are right about the canon project probably not needing anything approaching a high-powered jet, I still find ArmySgt's posts interesting and potentially useful.

I have planned games using the Phoenix Project rules (A Morrow rules clone) and in those games there is military involvement in the project. That upgrades equipment at every level.

Everyone's project is different. For example, I want ALL my project's teams to bristle with firepower (marauders will look at them like porcupines). "No way im going to touch that". This is often more for show than for combat, but it allows my regional teams enough freedom to reach their local rally points. So in my project plan, once a community support team reached the rally point more than half of the heaviest equipment would have been put in an armory, and they would move into areas, that have been swept by mars and recon teams, with a much less intimidating appearance.

The personality of my gaming group is one that very much avoids combat, but I think they want a project to be prepared for almost anything (if it had actually worked). I also want the project planners to have a desire to have a technical edge over most 5 year post threats.

It is possible some warlord has the Commemorative Air Force(formerly Confederate Air force) under his control. So to counter that I give my project 4-8 A-37s that can be fitted with AAMs. F-5s are a little heavy for my taste, but if any threat is going to have prop planes it is nice to have a jet trump card.

Maybe the surviving US Military, who I believe the project is supposed to help if they get the chance, could really use 4 jets which have been sheltered from EMP and have a full logistical chain.

Just food for thought.

[stormlion1]

While I don't see the Project needing Fighter Aircraft I can see them stocking one or four away for a rainy day. But without dedicated Pilots and a limited amount of Avgas and munitions. There job is to aid in rebuilding not arm the USAF or combat Russian Forces. At most they would be dedicated to aiding Mars Teams if they were in distress but that is about it. The resources would be better spent on cargo aircraft and small aircraft for survey work. The major issue is that while a Fighter plane might survive five years unattended (Will they be in sealed bunkers or in Bolt Holes with inert gas? That's a lot of inert gas.) One hundred and fifty years after the fact there going to be so much junk and any landing fields will be either broken up asphalt or grass covered fields. Just clearing a usable landing strip unless its a desert environment will be a major undertaking. So if there are any fighter planes they would be limited to desert regions because there just won't be enough usable landing strips to even use them without a huge landscaping project needing to be done.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by stormlion1

The major issue is that while a Fighter plane might survive five years unattended (Will they be in sealed bunkers or in Bolt Holes with inert gas? That's a lot of inert gas.)

A modified A-10 flew on cellulose processed into alcohol a few years ago.
This could be another Project development. If the agricultural teams do their job, there should be MUCH surpluss cellulose.

http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Ener...-Jet-Fuel.html

Originally Posted by stormlion1

One hundred and fifty years after the fact there going to be so much junk and any landing fields will be either broken up asphalt or grass covered fields.

When I plan my project I try not to think about the 150 year mistake, unless it is lethal to the team. With teams waking up randomly a lot of equipment ends up being only borderline useful as it was expected to synergize with other teams.

[Jeff9650]

What about the Project using the V-22 Osprey? All the teathing problems aside, I can see the Project supply bases using an Aircraft that has the lift of a heavy aircraft, and the vertical power of a helicopter.

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by kato13

Gamer,

It is possible some warlord has the Commemorative Air Force(formerly Confederate Air force) under his control. So to counter that I give my project 4-8 A-37s that can be fitted with AAMs. F-5s are a little heavy for my taste, but if any threat is going to have prop planes it is nice to have a jet trump card.

Actually I like the idea of the State of Texas controlling the CAF resources better, along with whatever was left of the US military air assets in Texas.

They have some interesting plans that can fly long ranges to say the KFS.

The P-47N-5RE they have is an extreme long range bomber escort (3200 km range). It is more than capable of flying to the KFS on photo recon and back, from the center of Texas to the center of Kentucky is only 1566 Km.

Interesting addition to any KFS campaign out there.

[nuke11]

I'm for the MP having air assets, but not that much of it.

Hiding stuff around the country at the smaller airfields is easy to do, currently working on an MP Airbase for release later, but there are dozens and dozens of small air fields around the country that MPI can purchase and use to store air assets.

I'm leaning myself to 1 / 2 engine prop and small helicopters . Since we have the CH-47 and C-130 from Prime Base, we have to include them as well, but in limited numbers and very limited locations.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by nuke11

I'm for the MP having air assets, but not that much of it.

Hiding stuff around the country at the smaller airfields is easy to do, currently working on an MP Airbase for release later, but there are dozens and dozens of small air fields around the country that MPI can purchase and use to store air assets.

I'm leaning myself to 1 / 2 engine prop and small helicopters . Since we have the CH-47 and C-130 from Prime Base, we have to include them as well, but in limited numbers and very limited locations.

I really think the air assets are going to operate solely out of Prime Base and Regional bases. Simply because that is where the most Morrow Project support structure.

Conceivably, Select Teams of MARS could be in Bolt Holes and equipped with Air Ambulance and Rescue versions of common helos. They would need to immediately link with their Combined Group for atleast maintenance support.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by nuke11

Actually I like the idea of the State of Texas controlling the CAF resources better, along with whatever was left of the US military air assets in Texas.

They have some interesting plans that can fly long ranges to say the KFS.

The P-47N-5RE they have is an extreme long range bomber escort (3200 km range). It is more than capable of flying to the KFS on photo recon and back, from the center of Texas to the center of Kentucky is only 1566 Km.

Interesting addition to any KFS campaign out there.

Read PF-06 Operation Lone Star for the state of U.S. forces in and around Ft. Hood, Texas. Incursion by Cuban/Central American Soviet allies, and the state of oil production......

Own and get a Morrow Project communications satellite too while you are at it as an added bonus!

[nuke11]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Read PF-06 Operation Lone Star for the state of U.S. forces in and around Ft. Hood, Texas. Incursion by Cuban/Central American Soviet allies, and the state of oil production......

Own and get a Morrow Project communications satellite too while you are at it as an added bonus!

Yes I have 6 or 7 of it.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by nuke11

Yes I have 6 or 7 of it.

Morrow sats? Wow......

[welsh]

Sorry, I am with Gamer on this. Sophisticated air assets on a large scale don't make a lot of sense in the Morrow world. Even an organization of a 10,000 people are not going to be able to field the capacity necessary to maintain that level of technology. If anything, the technology that you deal with might be superior to what you got frozen with, but its 150 years old and age wears stuff down.

Look, even rubber has a limited shelf life. The Morrow plan was to revive the project shortly after a nuclear war. On something as simple as tires, that would have significant damage. Even if you could make a rubber that could remain essentially inert for a few years or lift the weight off, the weight of the vehicle will likely cause the rubber to settle. 150 years and tires are flat. Even if you could "freeze" the tires in time, gravity will cause damage.

You rely on a technologically advanced system to sustain the project, it becomes illogical. It would consume too much resources when those resources need to go elsewhere. As mentioned by Gamer above- Morrow Project is not about local warlordism but about responding to a disaster and rebuilding society. The priorities or reconstruction would out weigh war fighting. In fact, the war fighting aspects are meant to serve only to protect the rebuilding effort- which is front and center.

I am not saying I don't see the "coolness" of it, but that's always been a problem with the Morrow project and, in a way, with the trend in doomsday prep in real life- a desire to "have stuff in an apocalyptic world." If that's your thing, go for it. It is your game.

But I would caution that the more the game bends realism for "coolness" it risks blundering away from good story telling and into some pretty significant silliness. All I am saying is that you have to keep it real. What kind of aircraft?

Balloons, ok, A World War 1 tech bi-plane that flies one ethanol "moonshine" fuel, ok (that's what twilight 2000 engines ran on).

I would add that budgets matter here, especially in what goes into the bolt holes- how much does an F-5 cost? I can understand putting the fusion reactor in the F-5, but then can you keep the supply chain for an F-5 as well as other types of vehicles that are more necessary to the mission? Its interesting that the only real air asset is a 2 man scout helicopter.

The temptation to include stuff because its cool needs to be avoided. One might consider, if one were so predisposed, either older and simpler designs that are dual-use (and which might be armed). Put a mini-gun on that aging Dakota cargo plane? One would also need simply aircraft that are sustainable under conditions of high scarcity.

Think of the before and after- Before- Morrow is operating in secrecy- so a company buys advanced fighter aircraft would draw attention. Billions spent on buying advanced warfare systems- would draw attention. Attention is not a good thing. Post-war- military scarcity and the break down of civilization- national industrial capacity was destroyed, neglected, irradiated or has simply rusted away. Things we take for granted are just not there. Most of your technological capacity ranges from stone age to mid 20th century at best. Higher levels require organization of social, technical and economic power that would be hard to imagine. Remember, this is a world that has broken down.

That material scarcity is not a bad thing for story telling. It means that game directors have to keep it real.

Consider the plot possibilities- Who has those air assets. The Ballooners, a small group of dare devil pilots flying alcohol fueled airplanes across the country- a form of air pirates? What kind of network and resources do they use? Are they owned by a government or independent?

If there is high tech in the world, where did it come from? And 150 years later, that tech is likely to be nothing like we have today. If a Kentucky Free State has more advanced aircraft- where did it get that tech from? Did high technology survive in other parts of the world and are selling it American warlords, perhaps to put the Americans against each other so they can exploit or weaken the Americans for their own purposes? Who are these outsiders? Brazil, Singapore, a Japan that survived the war better than the Americans, a Mormon colony? Did all parts of the world suffer the cataclysm the same? Have some recovered faster than we have?

All I am saying is the fetish for "cool stuff" risks undermining the stories you tell, and the strength of Morrow isn't the stuff but the story.

[ArmySGT.]

My point is

There what the Project was supposed to be on start, not what it is with Prime Base off line and faulty computer code sending random wake up codes 150 years to late.

The Project is of course about reconstruction. The reality is that it is a WAR that caused all the chaos that needs to be repaired and rebuilt from. There is no guarantee that the war is over five years after 19 November 1989. There isn't a guarantee that hostile forces are not occupying American soil at year five (there is and in more than one location). Further there isn't any indication that the Soviets are completely done with and cannot retaliate further.

That is why I continue to believe that the Project would have acquired F-5s for air superiority mission over Prime Base and critical Project assets like the (censored) in OP Desert Search.

Now, Are those going to be operable in year 150+ ? Well, I am not handing Prime Base or a Regional base over to the players, so I am not giving them F-5s. That is an asset for the PD to bring into play if the players have really messed up the B&B or Lonestar campaigns. Are they going to fly? Well, V-150s do, all the ordnance in the bolt holes and caches does. F-5s cannot be more complex than HAAM suits, Science One, or a MARS one....... Hell that can't be more complex than a cryosleep chamber. If hand waving works for those I am going to allow it for F-5s and spare parts.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by kato13

, I still find ArmySgt's posts interesting and potentially useful.

[ArmySGT.]

Another thought........

How much heat does a target aircraft have to give off for a heat seeker like the Stinger or Chapparal to actually lock on?

Would KFS P-47Ds even be targetable?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Another thought........

How much heat does a target aircraft have to give off for a heat seeker like the Stinger or Chapparal to actually lock on?

Would KFS P-47Ds even be targetable?

I would think the newer missiles which are all-aspect would have a chance. If they can target heated guard towers (ala "Cardinal and the Kremlin") and smaller helicopters I think the heat output from a P-47 would be sufficient.

Also don't newer missiles look look for both heat and an absence or UV. This keeps them from targeting the sun IIRC.

[Jeff9650]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Another thought........

How much heat does a target aircraft have to give off for a heat seeker like the Stinger or Chapparal to actually lock on?

Would KFS P-47Ds even be targetable?

Oh heck yeah it would. Back when I was taking aviation maintenance at a 2 year college back in 1988, I talked with someone who had just left the navy and his last post was the USS Midway. Knowing that the Carrier was all Hornets, I asked about how sensitive the Sidewinders heat seeking warheads were. He told me that he was walking by a Hornet that was fitted out one day and he heard some strange noises coming from there. When he walked back, he heard the same noises again. On the third time back, he looked over and noticed the warhead seeker was following him, and with that, the vanes on the missile was adjusting themselves to target him. So if the sensor on a Sidewinder (which is a Chapparal, just renamed) can track a human, then it can track a P-47.

[stormlion1]

Originally Posted by Jeff9650

Oh heck yeah it would. Back when I was taking aviation maintenance at a 2 year college back in 1988, I talked with someone who had just left the navy and his last post was the USS Midway. Knowing that the Carrier was all Hornets, I asked about how sensitive the Sidewinders heat seeking warheads were. He told me that he was walking by a Hornet that was fitted out one day and he heard some strange noises coming from there. When he walked back, he heard the same noises again. On the third time back, he looked over and noticed the warhead seeker was following him, and with that, the vanes on the missile was adjusting themselves to target him. So if the sensor on a Sidewinder (which is a Chapparal, just renamed) can track a human, then it can track a P-47.

Which means it was armed and sitting on a grounded planes launch rack. Which is kind of scary when you think about it.