Milgov&civgov

[rcaf_777]

Just wondering if anyone has ideas on how thses governments would look and function

Who in them? I know for the MILGOV is made up off the Joint Cheifs but who elese?

Since the nuclear attack happens on the US Thanksgiving Weekend, odds are a good number of senior government officals would surrive.

Also the US government could order key departments to have designated survivors and alternate HQ sucj as the FBI, CIA, or FEMA

[kato13]

I missed the point of your question in my original post.

As written Milgov would have a serious leg up on control of govt funcitons as CIVGOV was not formed for months.

Generally I think CIVGOV would only be able to pick up parts of even the functions that you might expect CIA/FBI/FEMA justice etc. Mostly local opportunistic leaders in areas where CIVGOV somehow has access to more local assets.


Edit Below is original post.

Because deputy secretaries and military branch chiefs (and even their deputies) have been approved by the senate and therefore can be considered in the line of succession, there is NO WAY the total lack of a president as presented could happen.

Even with the nukes and Spetnaz units going after parts of the tree, nearly 120 people would need to die.

Cheney spent weeks in a bunker after 9/11 and we are to believe 120 people could be targeted 4 months after nuclear use in Asia and Europe.

If I were writing the conflict now I would have ambiguity as to who should have been promoted. As I mentioned in another thread you could have SECDEF promoted to president with the DIA having full knowledge that SECSTATE is still alive but out of contact. As SECSTATE out ranks SECDEF they should be president, but honestly I can't see once someone is sworn in there being too big of a schism.

[dragoon500ly]

The US line of succession as per the Constitution and the Presidential Succession Act of 1947, the PSA was amended as new cabinet posts were created. However, those heads of departments who are ineligible to run for President are also ineligible to succeed the President. The most common reason being that they are not a natural-born U.S. citizen.

The main line is:

President
Vice President
Speaker of the House of Representatives
President pro tempore of the Senate
The heads of federal executive departments forming the Cabinet

Since 1947, many constitutional law experts have raised questions as the constitutionality of the provisions that the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempore of Senate succeed to the presidency. In 2003 the Continuity of Government Commission raised a number of other issues to the current line of succession.

The first PSA was passed in 1792 and states that the Vice President was the successor to the President. There were concerns at the time about the separation of powers, including if the Chief Justice of the U.S. was included in the succession. The compromise worked out include the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempore of the Senate. It also included the line "that these officers were to act as the President and Vice President until the disability be removed or a president elected."

The PSAs have two issues;
1) the term "Officer" is most plausibly interpreted to mean an "Officer of the United States", who must be a member of either the Executive or Judicial Branch. The Speaker and the President pro tempore are not officially officers in this sense.

2) The separation of powers in the Constitution specifically disallows legislative officials from also.ser ing in the Executive Branch. For either the Speaker or the President pro tempore to become President, them must resign their position, at which point, they are no longer in the line of succession! While this forms a paradox, the latest amendment to.the PSA specifies that the Speaker becomes President "upon his resignation as Speaker and as a member of Congress."

The current order as of 2017 is as follows:

President
Vice President
Speaker of the House of Representatives
President pro tempore of the Senate
Secretary of State
Secretary of the Treasury
Secretary of Defense
Attorney General of the United States
Secretary of the Interior
Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Labor
Secretary of Health & Human Services
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy
Secretary of Education
Secretary of Veteran Affairs
Secretary of Homeland Security

The Cabinet officers are listed according to the chronological order of their department.

The language of the PSA allows the President to appoint "officers by and with the advice and consent of Senate."

Section 3 of the 20th Amendment provides that if the President-elect dies before his term begins, then the vice president-elect becomes President on Inauguration Day and serves the full four year term. If both the President -elect and the vice president-elect die before taking the oath of office, Congress can pro use by law for the election of a new president-elect and vice-president-elect.

Article.2, Section 1 of the 25th Amendment, states that the Vice President is the designated successor if the President resigns, dies, or is removed from office or if the President is temporarily unable to perform his duties.due to medical condition or mentally unstable. It also requires the new President to fill of office of the Vice President (previously it was the practice to leave the VP position open until the next election).

The PSA does not allow for the situation that shows in T2K, the Joint Chiefs of Staff are not in the line of succession, as their function is to act as advisors to the President. For General Tanner to be able to assume the office of the President, he would have to be appointed, with the advice and consent of the Senate to either a cabinet post (Secretary of Defence for example), or as Vice President. If he is not appointed, then he is simply not able to assume the office of President.

Which makes MilGov the illegal government and CivGov the legitimate one......

[rcaf_777]

Ok great background info, but what I am for is what each government might have EI who would MILGOV have as

President
Vice President
Secretary of State
Secretary of the Treasury
Secretary of Defense
Attorney General of the United States
Secretary of the Interior
Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Labor
Secretary of Health & Human Services
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy
Secretary of Education
Secretary of Veteran Affairs

[kato13]

MILGOV never establishes a new president from what I recall. They continue to operate under martial law.

I suppose for structure you might want to look at how the US government handled the recovery in Europe after WWII as to what they might do for the equivalent of cabinet posts.

[Draq]

As far as who had what posts, I don't think that's anywhere in the books. And as far as milgov, it would be a Marshal law military council. Civgov would have a hodgepodge of pre-tdm office holders and newly appointed officials... And a hodgepodge of offices and positions given the massive chaos and change necessitating a restructuring.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Ok great background info, but what I am for is what each government might have EI who would MILGOV have as

President
Vice President
Secretary of State
Secretary of the Treasury
Secretary of Defense
Attorney General of the United States
Secretary of the Interior
Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Labor
Secretary of Health & Human Services
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy
Secretary of Education
Secretary of Veteran Affairs

General Cummings was head and would appoint personnel, most likely senior people whose job could overlap the civilian sector.

[pmulcahy11b]

I know it's heresy compared to most players, but I think that CIVGOV has a more legitimate claim to being the legal US government, having most of the remaining civilian US government in its ranks and not unsizable military forces (though little heavy equipment).

MILGOV, on the other hand, controls a lot of the commo networks and heavy equipment, oil in the Gulf, and large armed forces. They have become the de facto government to many, and probably have their own version of COG (even more illegitimate than CIVGOV's COG).

MILGOV is, essentially trying to replace the legitimate US Government with a military junta. And for a long time after the Twilight War, they will succeed, but the people, as the country recovers and becomes more organized, will want a return to democracy. And this is where CIVGOV steps in.

[Toxoplasmaman]

The Milgov/Civgov split is canon. After reading these posts, I realize that Milgov did a Coup d'état. It happens folks. Even to us.

Wow... sorta sucks since a lot of us are former military. I supported Milgov when I played.

You have to appreciate the excellent canon work done back then. No web, deadlines, etc.

Course some of the canon is interesting from string theories and such.

[James Langham]

Originally Posted by Toxoplasmaman

The Milgov/Civgov split is canon. After reading these posts, I realize that Milgov did a Coup d'état. It happens folks. Even to us.

Wow... sorta sucks since a lot of us are former military. I supported Milgov when I played.

You have to appreciate the excellent canon work done back then. No web, deadlines, etc.

Course some of the canon is interesting from string theories and such.

One of the clever bits of TW2000 is the amount of grey in the game, little is black and white.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Toxoplasmaman

The Milgov/Civgov split is canon. After reading these posts, I realize that Milgov did a Coup d'état. It happens folks. Even to us.

A coup suggests a violent overthrow of the previous government. I don't remember reading that in canon. What they were, was the last intact functioning piece of the pre-war government. You can question the legitimacy of Milgov's rule. Just like you can with Civgov's legitimacy, the election/seating of Reps and Senators comes to mind.

[rcaf_777]

I would call is coup per say. It comes down to who steps in to get things done the nukes fly and who on the ground giving orders?

Also who has controls over things like guns, food etc? In times like this soldiers and fall back on their training and leadership. Many civilians will go with the flow as long as the basic needs are met, food shelter and security.

Government Officials might find it hard to give orders from a bunker.

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Just wondering if anyone has ideas on how thses governments would look and function

Who in them? I know for the MILGOV is made up off the Joint Cheifs but who elese?

Since the nuclear attack happens on the US Thanksgiving Weekend, odds are a good number of senior government officals would surrive.

Also the US government could order key departments to have designated survivors and alternate HQ sucj as the FBI, CIA, or FEMA

Milgov.

1. I think Civil Affairs Officers and commands would become more important. In a cantonment, they would probably be the main liaison with civilian authorities in the areas. The relations would probably vary depending on what the situation was like. If there was relatively organized territory where mayors were still being elected or whatever local equivalent existed, if there was a governor or equivalent, then this would probably be a kind of partnership. The military would in some cases have seniority over production of important goods or products, in other cases they might be just defending the territory.

I also think that in some cases where there had been utter chaos, the military would have replaced the civilian governments locally. Perhaps they might be slowly built up. This would range from virtual proconsul like commanders in some areas to Milgov providing protection and support.

2. Generally Support command officers would have a totally different approach to providing support for the need to do a wide range of supplies that regular procurement contracts would not fill. They might have special units attached solely for maintaining a fuel refinery or ammunition production factory, water purification plant, etc.

3. Where possible, I picture Milgov having a Recovery Support (Unit) which would assess the viability of areas around contonments or field commands, establishing whether the area needs to be evacuated, if key infrastructure can be rebuilt and so on. This would also include future projections about a census and possibility of rebuilding the government.

4. Generally, for the near future, I imagine Milgov accepting the idea that there will be no presidency, and so the Chairman would be presented to those under Milgov as an ad hoc emergency government for the interim.

A possible alternative of course is some government agency--FEMA, the Director of an Agency on the National Security Council, etc--but the problem is that they might not have the legitimacy in the minds of military personnel unless they have shown a keen organizing ability and have won over the Joint Chiefs and other senior personnel.

5. Defense Agencies may still have installations or projects that are active. These may need direct assistance, rescuing and so on.

Civgov

1. CivGov might very well have appointed the regular cabinet, senior government agencies and so on. The staff would probably be a lot smaller. I picture the remaining agencies like a kind of Praetorian Guard for the Presidency.

- The CIA
- The FBI/ATF/DEA
- The NSA
- National Science Foundation
- NOAA (which has its own ships and facilities)

2. If you have seen the show "Borgia" the cardinals meeting are often a small group and I picture "Congress" being similar. As stated in canon some may not even properly represent their states. So I picture this being a hodgepodge of hangers on, courtiers, ne'er do wells and such. Or perhaps as in the last days of the Roman Republic, scattered, barely any authority save for those who represent states still relatively efective perhaps.