A new idea for a cover for Prime Base

[tsofian]

A major problem with original canon Prime Base was the cover story. No one likes the published one and no one has come up with one that hasn't been shot to pieces. Let's go back to first principals and see what we need and if I have a solution that works.

The base needs several types of entrances. One needs to be the construction entrance, so that is what we will chat about here.

This needs to be
Concealed
Secure
Big enough to allow a lot of large machinery and a high volume of materials to pass into
Not arouse suspicion as the activities take place
Either be concealed or filled in after it is done serving its purpose and before the war.

How about this



Grain elevators are all over the USA. They are huge. They have internal railway spurs that allow cars to be loaded and unloaded in covered conditions.

Morrow Industries owns the grain elevator. Some of the cars that come in are carrying supplies, equipment or personnel for Prime Base. They are taken into the buildings and detached from the train and put on a small siding that is in a building and is on a large elevator. The car descends to a deep tunnel and is pulled to the base, which could be several miles away. The car is either returned to the surface or cannibalized for materials for the base.

Any issues?

[nuke11]

Are you planning on moving the location of Prime Base from the Nevada Black Desert to a location where grain elevators wouldn't look out of place?

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by nuke11

Are you planning on moving the location of Prime Base from the Nevada Black Desert to a location where grain elevators wouldn't look out of place?

Either Yes or no. The grain elevator could be just outside of Gerlach Nevada and the tunnel several miles long. I have been thinking about moving Prime Base anyway.

In my estimation, Prime should actually be under a big fallout plume. It won't hurt the base. It will help keep people away from it and by 3-5 years later most of it will be gone anyway.

[Sprocketteer]

Originally Posted by tsofian

In my estimation, Prime should actually be under a big fallout plume. It won't hurt the base. It will help keep people away from it and by 3-5 years later most of it will be gone anyway.

How about the Project setting off their own "safe"/low power nuke to hide itself?

[cosmicfish]

I am inclined to say that a grain elevator is probably not a good cover. First, the areas that have grain elevators are also areas that have a not-inconsiderable population. Second, these locations are probably going to be suspicious if they fall out of use without replacement. Third, you cannot disguise nearly enough stuff as grain.

I think an old mine or other such venture are probably a lot more desirable - no/minimal nearby population, easy explanation for a decade or two of heavy activity followed by abandonment, lots of use for a variety of heavy equipment.

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

I am inclined to say that a grain elevator is probably not a good cover. First, the areas that have grain elevators are also areas that have a not-inconsiderable population. Second, these locations are probably going to be suspicious if they fall out of use without replacement. Third, you cannot disguise nearly enough stuff as grain.

I think an old mine or other such venture are probably a lot more desirable - no/minimal nearby population, easy explanation for a decade or two of heavy activity followed by abandonment, lots of use for a variety of heavy equipment.

Have you been out West? There are plenty of grain elevators in the middle of nowhere. There are also plenty of abandoned grain elevators. Plus why do you need to shut it down? It can operate until the end of the world.


And about your third comment https://www.steelcar.com/sites/defau...d-hopper_0.jpg

What's in this covered hopper car? It could be anything!

"Operating at a gross rail load of 286,000 pounds, the above 5,431-cubic foot hopper car is equipped with a through centre sill, designed for transporting medium-density commodities covering a variety of agricultural products as well as chemicals and allied products."

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Sprocketteer

How about the Project setting off their own "safe"/low power nuke to hide itself?

Very dangerous and conspicuous. The major powers could note that they didn't target the area, so enemies might presume it is a test site or other valid target, while friendlies might wonder what is going on and send people out to investigate. Even those unaware might notice that a nuke went off out in the middle of nowhere with no apparent associated missile. Plus the possibility of damaging your own site or rendering it unusable for some longer length of time.

Plus, you need a nuke, a regular old-fashioned nuke, and TMP doesn't need that exposure.

[Madbomber Mike]

Yeah, Agree with Nuke... a Grain elevator just about anywhere in Nevada is gonna stick out like a turd in a punch bowl!

Now, for a "Prime Alternate"... say somewhere in the heartland, it's doable.... but only just. Remember, these sites attract a lot of attention from the EPA, OSHA and the States Fire Marshalls (Grain Elevators blow up all on their own all the time due to static induced grain dust explosions)… might be a little more scrutiny than TMP would like.


Can I interest you in this defunct K-Mart Distribution facility that's been abandoned and in receivership for the past 2 decades instead?

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by Madbomber Mike

Yeah, Agree with Nuke... a Grain elevator just about anywhere in Nevada is gonna stick out like a turd in a punch bowl!

Except for the ones that are there. Do a Google search and you will come up with a number of them This one is the perfect model, although a bit small.

Neff Mill
5.0
3 Google reviews
Grain Elevator
Address: HC 60 Box 587, Ruby Valley, NV 89833

[gamerguy]

Ya wanna stick it in Nevada, then put it down in Perfection Valley (formerly Rejection). There is already a small underground bunker. Perhaps TMP could work with the present owner on expanding his facility. Probably acquire an enlarged weapons cache that way.

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by gamerguy

Ya wanna stick it in Nevada, then put it down in Perfection Valley (formerly Rejection). There is already a small underground bunker. Perhaps TMP could work with the present owner on expanding his facility. Probably acquire an enlarged weapons cache that way.

I'm wearing my "Everything I needed to Know I learned from Burt Gummer" T-shirt right now!

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by Madbomber Mike

. Remember, these sites attract a lot of attention from the EPA, OSHA and the States Fire Marshalls (Grain Elevators blow up all on their own all the time due to static induced grain dust explosions)… might be a little more scrutiny than TMP would like.

If the War starts in 1989 construction of the base should be completed well before that point, especially if Bruce has an idea when the balloon will go up. Let's say everything has to be finished by 1985. In 1985 let's look at various Federal agencies and see who would really be looking at things the Project doesn't want revealed.

OSHA-Established in 1970 by Nixon. It would have the right to inspect any work site. However, Nevada is an OSHA State Plan State, which means the Federal OSHA has limited jurisdiction and worker safety laws are enforced at the State Level. The State program was certified in 1981. OSHA, in general, is far less intrusive than most people think. They have a very weak fine structure. If you wish to get a clear idea of the strength and aggressiveness of Nevada OSHA take a look at this report https://www.osha.gov/dcsp/final-nevada-report.pdf. Of particular interest is "Nevada OSHA agreed to conduct 2900 inspections as part of its budgeting process, which translates to 95 to 115 inspections per year per investigator, far too many per investigator to do a thorough job. The Nevada legislature utilizes this information to determine if the program is meeting its goals. (See IV-2, VII-5) "

There are 45,000 or so small businesses in Nevada, so let's say a total of 55,000 in the state. That means, on average, a single company can expect a visit once every 18 years. Now that doesn't take into account the number of workplaces, which are what is inspected. The 2900 will also include things like Fatality inspections, repeat inspections, inspections triggered by irate employees and such. Randoms will be only a part of the total.


EPA has very limited jurisdiction over a grain elevator. They do have some level of jurisdiction over mining. They didn't really get any teeth until CERCLA comes out in 1980 and really it takes several years for the programs to get rolling

"The EPA published the first Hazard Ranking System (HRS) in 1981, and the first National Priorities List (NPL) in 1983.[4] Implementation during early years, the two terms of the Reagan administration was ineffective, as only 16 of the 799 Superfund sites were cleaned up, and only $40 million of $700 million in recoverable funds from responsible parties were collected. Reagan's policies were described as laissez-faire.[5]:5"

Abandoned mines tend to attract a lot of EPA attention. They have tailing piles rich in heavy metals. Often they have large ponds or lakes filled with contaminated water. If the mine happened to be a uranium mine then not only will EPA be all over it, but also DOE. DOE has had a number of expansive programs in place since the late 1970s and up to the current day to locate and clean up these facilities. Also, as has been pointed out so many times mines have an irresistible attraction to the curious.


State Fire Marshals-Until the Westwego Grain Elevator Explosion of 1977 these risks were not really on anyone's radar "In 1977, a grain elevator in Westwego exploded due to a spark igniting grain dust. The explosion killed 36 people. The explosion prompted new safety developments in grain elevators.[citation needed]" After 1977 all grain elevators were probably inspected, those in urban settings getting a tighter look over. I'm fairly comfortable such a fire inspection would not catch the Morrow Project parts of the elevator.


And the one that everyone forgets MSHA. These guys are one of the most intrusive and aggressive of all federal agencies. Since 1977 each underground mine is REQUIRED to be inspected 4 times each year. That means any Morrow Project related mining operations are absolutely going to get 4 inspections from MSHA every year after 1977. If the mine is no longer in use by 1977 EPA will have jurisdiction if the mine has left any waste behind (which it almost certainly will have). See EPA above

FDA may inspect grain elevators, but probably not often and they won't be looking for secret doors and such.

From this, we can see that mining will be the most inspected type of operation. If the mine is operational posy 1977 it will get four inspections every year. MSHA inspectors have a well-deserved reputation of thoroughness. They will often look through the entire mine. If the mine is closed after 1980 it may end up on the Superfund NPL. Even if it isn't being actively cleaned up it might still get subjected to an in-depth environmental assessment, which can include drilling for soil samples.

Of these agencies (and I have worked with OSHA, EPA, DOE, MSHA, FDA and several others) I respected MSHA the most. Their inspectors were generally the best educated in their fields and were really on the ball. Fed OSHA folks were good in their small areas, but not as well rounded, and State OSHA inspectors have been noted as having inspected facilities and passed them just prior to serious disasters.

If avoiding inspections is a goal mines drop to the bottom of the list.

[Madbomber Mike]

tsofian - Only had to deal with MSHA once (mine demolition contract) and yes, they were a HUGE pain, but very thorough and professional. The rest, I work with and get inspected by regularly, so I think it's more of an industry specific thing.

I think what everyone is saying is that theres no grain industry anywhere near North-West Nevada... not that your idea isn't a valid one, it's just bad camouflage for the area. I've been to the black rock, theres not much of anything up there.
It'd be sorta like wearing a Ghillie Suit in the middle of a city... it's great camouflage... just not for THAT environment.

For that area, two choices, a mine, or a ranch, that's about it.


Now, if I was going to put it in the Midwest, a grain elevator makes sense. But personally, I can plop down a big assed distribution warehouse and have it go bankrupt/defunct after it burns down real quick and NOBODY will ever inspect it or really care about it once that happens. Tie it's status up in the courts for a couple decades and there ya go. Nobody on our side gives a damn about the site... just whats underneath it!

[tsofian]

Both mines and ranches have serious problems.

A mine has a small entrance which doesn't allow a whole lot of traffic. It is very dangerous in and of itself. MSHA will be hard to fool. Unless its something like a strip mine you don't have a lot of volume going out at any given time and you never have volume going in. Empty haul trucks aren't covered, which means they will be hard to have filled with anything.

It's difficult to develop a cover story for a ranch that needs all the crap hauled to it that Prime Base does. It has to be thousands of truckloads of material, not to mention all the people. Food for however many people for 10 years or more is 2 kg/day/person so 2X3650X500 is over 3.5 million kilograms alone. That is 3500 truckloads all by itself.

The three or four "towers" each probably weigh ten thousand tons or so, meaning another 30 to 40 THOUSAND truckloads (if using a 1 tonne truck)

Even bigger trucks will still yield tens of thousands of truckloads of material. Let's be conservative and say that over the period of base construction 100,000 tons of materials must be brought into the site. So we can say that is 25,000 truckloads (if using a 4 ton truck). Check my math but that is around 7 trucks a day.

That is hard to explain going INTO a relatively small mine and basically impossible for a ranch.

Now the big ass railcars can each hold 50 or more tons, so only 2,000 railway cars.

[mmartin798]

Using grain elevators as cover would move Prime Base close to the Nevada-California border, the Nevada-Utah border or close to Las Vegas where they are close to agriculture. The only areas that have rail service would be Las Vegas and the Utah border. The area around McGill NV would seem a decent fit. Rail service, small population, about 3000 hectare of cultivated fields nearby and mountain peaks 7-20km away. It would be a small elevator to be sure, but it may still fit the bill.

One possible negative is the proximity to Nevada Ely State Prison. It is a maximum security prison with current inmate population of about 1125 and a staff of 406.

[mcruff]

what about using an old missle silo? front company buys one to turn into a trendy hotel type project hence the reason all the trucks moving in and out and then has financial issues slowing down work etc... . I have no idea about the logistics so probably wouldn't be feasible. Just throwing in my 2 cents.

Greg

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by tsofian

Both mines and ranches have serious problems.

Agreed!

Originally Posted by tsofian

A mine has a small entrance which doesn't allow a whole lot of traffic. It is very dangerous in and of itself. MSHA will be hard to fool. Unless its something like a strip mine you don't have a lot of volume going out at any given time and you never have volume going in. Empty haul trucks aren't covered, which means they will be hard to have filled with anything.

The mine entrance is no bigger problem than it is for any other venture; it isn't like grain elevators are famous for giant doors or anything. And the haul trucks or other traffic are less of an issue when you are out in the middle of nowhere instead of right in the middle of farmlands.

MSHA is a valid issue and may be the single best reason why a mine might not work, but grain elevators also get inspected, if less vigorously. Any Project site is likely to require some method of avoiding honest inspection, whether that is bribing the inspectors or having the inspections performed by Project personnel or some other method.

Originally Posted by tsofian

It's difficult to develop a cover story for a ranch that needs all the crap hauled to it that Prime Base does. It has to be thousands of truckloads of material, not to mention all the people. Food for however many people for 10 years or more is 2 kg/day/person so 2X3650X500 is over 3.5 million kilograms alone. That is 3500 truckloads all by itself.

The three or four "towers" each probably weigh ten thousand tons or so, meaning another 30 to 40 THOUSAND truckloads (if using a 1 tonne truck)

Even bigger trucks will still yield tens of thousands of truckloads of material. Let's be conservative and say that over the period of base construction 100,000 tons of materials must be brought into the site. So we can say that is 25,000 truckloads (if using a 4 ton truck). Check my math but that is around 7 trucks a day.

That is hard to explain going INTO a relatively small mine and basically impossible for a ranch.

Now the big ass railcars can each hold 50 or more tons, so only 2,000 railway cars.

Let's go with 100,000 tons, and consider 3 delivery options and three time periods:

1 ton truck load*: 100,000 loads, or 80/day for 5 years, 40/day**or 10 years, or 20/day for 20 years

15 ton semi truck load: 6700 loads, or 5/day for 5 years, 3/day for 10 years, or 1 per day for 20 years.

50 ton railcar load: 2000 loads, or 1.6/day for 5 years, 0.8/day for 10 years, or 0.4/day for 20 years. Assuming a 50 car train, that would be 1 train per month for years, 1 per 2 months for 10 years, or 1 per 4 months for 20 years.

I think what this demonstrates more than anything else that a large base is going to be hard to conceal with a small business. It really sells me on the idea that a minimally-regulated business that expects high total traffic with little or no "civilian" traffic or exposure would be ideal... and that sounds like a shipping or distribution hub, not a mine or ranch or grain elevator.

It also drives home the challenges in concealing a large base, and gives more incentive for distributing those assets as much as possible.


*: Terrible choice, too many things are too large or heavy for this option.
**: Assuming 250 days per year (i.e., weekens off)