Manchuria, China, and the Far Eastern Front

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I remember a quote from V1 which was carried over all the way to v2.2: " Entire divisions were vaporized in imagined pursuit..."

Destroying a division on the road takes many fewer nukes than destroying a division that has been properly prepared. You can do the job with a relatively small package of tactical nuclear weapons if the division is bunched up and in the open the way they would be on the march. The effects of tactical nuclear weapons delivered against combat formations in Manchuria and Inner Mongolia will be hard on the locals nearby. As always, though, the nation-killers are the 1Mt devices used against cities. Is there a strike list for China anywhere?

[kota1342000]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Is there a strike list for China anywhere?

If we dont find one, Im starting work on one now.

[kota1342000]

First draft. Sources from www.globalsecurity.org.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by kota1342000

First draft. Sources from www.globalsecurity.org.

Looks good...you might want to look at some of the other port facilties...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ports_in_China

(Granted some ports listed there may not have been large enough to warrant a nuke in 1997, but my understanding was also that China was hit harder than any other country, so I think even a moderately large port could well be a target).

Also, it's not on the wiki list, presumably because of its status as a Special Administrative Region rather than part of the PRC proper, but I'd expect Hong Kong to be targetted at some point, either in July or November / December, (handover from the UK to the PRC was slated for 30 June 97 - I think it's reasonable that in the Twilight War timeline that could have been delayed, and am inclined to think that if HK was still a Crown Colony the Soviets might avoid targetting it in July as doing so would be an escalation of the nuclear exchange. Obviously that becomes a moot point from November onwards...)

[kota1342000]

Thank you Six, going into the second draft.
I agree about Hong Kong too, I'm wondering if i should separate the list into several strike waves.
Other additional targets Im going to add include HQ locations for ground forces, PLAAF airfields, and refinery locations. Its looking like the refinery list is going to be short though.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by kota1342000

Thank you Six, going into the second draft.
I agree about Hong Kong too, I'm wondering if i should separate the list into several strike waves.
Other additional targets Im going to add include HQ locations for ground forces, PLAAF airfields, and refinery locations. Its looking like the refinery list is going to be short though.

I'm not sure about the refineries - wikipedia only seems to list one (Fushun) but a quick look around the web suggests there may be quite a few more - for example this article from 2002 refers to there being nearly 130, with a further 110 having been closed since 1998.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Mar/28254.htm

[kota1342000]

Yes, Fushun was the only refinery I had found as well. But working from the link you gave, I found this list from a new report;

Plant 2007 Runs 2006 Runs Refining
Capacity
=================================================
Zhenhai 18.5 17.5 22.0
Maoming 13.0 14.0 13.5
Qilu 10.3 10.4 10.0
Jinling 11.5 10.6 13.5
Gaoqiao 8.0 9.5 11.3
Guangzhou 10.0 7.5 13.5
Fujian 4.0 4.0 4.0
Yangzi 8.0 8.0 8.0
Yanshan 9.0 8.0 16.0
Lanzhou 10.0 9.5 10.0
Dalian 12.0 12.0 20.0
WEPEC 7.7 8.5 10.0
Jinzhou 6.1 6.1 6.3
Jinxi 6.5 6.5 6.5
Dongxing 3.6 3.6 5.0
Hainan 7.8 2.2 8.0
=================================================
TOTAL 146.0 137.9 177.6
in mln bpd 2.92 2.76 3.55
(tonne= 7.3 barrels)


Anyway, better than nothing LOL

[dragoon500ly]

And here are the Republic of the Philippines

Population: 50,800,000
Army: 60,000
5 infantry divisions
1 special warfare bde (consists of 2 ranger, 1 mountain bn and 5 scout coys)
2 engineer bdes
1 light armored regiment
4 artillery regiments

28 Scorpion light tanks
80 M-113 APCs
20 Chaimite APCs
200 105mm towed hows
12 155mm towed hows
108 81mm mortars
24 107mm mortars
150 75mm/90mm/106mm RCLs
(on order 12 UH-1H helos)
Reserves: 20,000 forming 18 infantry bns; another 70,000 with reserve commitments

Navy: 28,000 (including 9,600 marines and 2,000 Coast Guard)
7 ex-US frigates (4 Casco, 1 Savage, 1 Cannon)
10 corvettes
3 FAC(M)
16 large patrol craft
59 coastal patrol craft
3 support ships
24 LSTs, 4 LSMs, 61 LCMs, 3 LCUs, 7 LCVPs
1 SAR sqn with 9 Islander ac, 5 BO-105 helos
3 marine bdes (total 9 bns) with 30 LVTP-5, 55 LVTP-7 APCs, 46 105mm towed hows, 100 107mm mortars
Reserves: 12,000

Air Force: 16,800
1 FGA sqn with 24 F-8H
1 interceptor sqn with 19 F-5A, 3 F-5B
1 fighter/training sqn with 10 T-34A
1 COIN sqn with 16 SD-260WP
2 COIN sqns with 20 T-28D
1 Helicopter wing with 50 UH-1H
1 Presidential tpt sqn with 1 Boeing 707, 1 BAC-111, 1 YS-11 ac, 1 S-62A, 2
UH-1N, 1 Puma helo
1 tpt sqn with 4 C-130H
1 tpt sqn with 5 C-47, 8 F-27, 3 F-27MR
1 tpt sqn with 12 Nomad
1 tpt sqn with 12 Islander
1 helo sqn with 12 BO-105
1 liaison sqn with 4 O-1E, 1 Cessna U-17A, 8 Beaver (being withdrawn)
1 weather sqn with 3 Cessna 210
(on order 16 Bell 412, 17 S-76, 2 S-70A5 helos)
Reserves: 16,000

Paramilitary Forces:
Philippine Constabulary: 43,500 forming 1 bde, 13 bns and 180 coys (by law part of armed forces)
Civil Home Defense Force: 65,000

Since its independence in 1946, the Philippines has relied almost exclusively upon the US for external security and used its armed forces essentially for internal security. Recently, the ROP has attempted to establish itself as an independent, nonaligned nation. It maintains its long standing relationship with the US, but it also emphasizes its ties with Japan and its fellow ASEAN nations (Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand). Since 1972, it has established diplomatic relations with twelve Communist countries (including the USSR and the PRC) and has also worked for friendly relations with the Arab nations.

Between 1946 and 1950, the Communist-inspired Hukbalahap insurgency came close to destroying the ROP. In between 1952 and 1954, this insurgency was almost eliminated by a combination of military force and clemency. In recent years, however, the insurgency has revived. It centers in the north of the Philippines on Luzon. Martial law was imposed in 1972 to deal with the problem and the estimated number of insurgents dropped from 3,000 to 1,000. However, in 1977 it reportedly rose again to 2,000. Government forces have successfully contained the rebels (now called the New People's Army).

A more serious problem for the ROP is the separatist Moslem rebellion in the southern Philippines, on Mindanao and in the Sulu Archipelago. This insurrection broke out in 1968 and intensified in 1972. More than 20,000 people have been killed since then and as many as 50,000 military personnel have deployed into the area every year. The rebels obtain arms from Libya, which also attempts to mediate. A ceasefire was arranged in 1976, but collapsed within a year. Both negotiations have recently been hampered by conflict with the rebel Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF).

Externally, the Philippines has a ongoing dispute with neighboring Malaysia over the ownership of the state of Sabah, in northeastern Borneo (it is through Sabah that weapons from Libya have been funneled to the MNLF). Malaysia now exercises sovereignty over Sabah, having inherited the 29,000 square mile region from Great Britain. The ROP claims that Britain never legally owned Sabah, which was part of the territory of the Sultan of Sulu, whose island domain is now part of the ROP. Neither side is believed likely to go to war over the dispute, and diplomatic relations, once severed, were resumed in 1969 with agreement that the Sabah dispute be held in abeyance for the time being.

Since 1946, the US has provided some $512.7 million in military assistance as well as substantial economic aid and some $700 million in war rehabilitation in grants and damage claims. A US Military Advisory Group provided extensive advice and assistance and was particularly useful during the Hukbalahap insurgency. To bolster the defense of the ROP, the US entered into three agreements: (1) the Military Bases Agreement which gave the US a ninety-nine year lease on certain military, air and naval bases (now defunct). (2) the Military Assistance Agreement wherein the US pledged to provide military assistance to the ROP (ongoing). (3) the Mutual Defense Treaty in which the ROP and the US pledged to defend each other in the case of foreign attack (ongoing)

The Philippines was an active member in the now-disbanded Southeast Asia Treaty Organization, was strongly opposed to the extension of Communist influence in the region and supported the US war in Vietnam, contributing a 2,000 man civil action group to aid community development efforts. Since the end of the Vietnam War, while maintaining its alliance with the US, it has established friendly ties with Communist and Arab countries and joined the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).

[dragoon500ly]

and in the ongoing look at the Far East, here is Malaysia on the eve of the Twilight War

Population: 14,500,000
Army: 80,000
4 division HQ (according to Military Balance, these control variable number of bdes)
9 infantry bdes (total of 36 infantry battalions)
3 cavalry regiments
4 field artillery regiments
1 APC regiment
2 AA Arty bns
1 special warfare regiment
5 engineer regiments

140 AML-series armd cars
60 Ferret scout cars
200 V-100/-150 Commando APCs
40 Condor APCs
12 5.5-inch guns
92 105mm pack hows
120 81mm mortars
40 89mm RL
100 Carl Gustav RCLs
5 120mm RCL
36 SS-11 ATGM
35 40mm AA guns
(on order, 51 Scorpion light tanks; 162 Sibmas APCs; 20 Stormer APCs, 459 Condor APCs)
Reserves:
Malaysian Territorial Army: 45,000
Local Defense Corps: 15,000

Navy: 8,700
2 frigates (1 Yarrow, 1 Type 41)
8 FAC(M)
8 FAC(G)
22 large patrol craft
2 Ton-class coastal minesweepers
2 LST
1 support ship
(on order 4 FAC(M); 4 minehunters, 1 ammunition ship)
Reserves: 1,000

Air Force: 11,000
2 FGA sqns with 14 F-5E, 4 F-5F
2 COIN-training sqns with 11 CL-41G (being replaced by A-4)
1 MR sqn with 3 PC-130H
1 tpt sqn with 6 C-130H
1 tpt sqn with 2 HS-125, 2 F-28, 12 Cessna 402B
2 tpt sqns with 15 DHC-4A
2 helo sqns with 38 S-61A
2 helo sqns with 27 Alouette III
1 training sqn with 10 Bulldog 102, 6 PC-7
1 training sqn with 7 Bell 47, 3 UH-1H helos
(on order 34 A-4S, 6 TA-4, 12 MB-339, 38 PC-7)

Paramilitary Forces:
Police Field Force: 19,000 forming 21 bns equipped with Shorland armd cars, SB-301 APCs, 40 small patrol boats, 4 Cessna 206, 1 C-130H, 1 HS-125M.
People's Volunteer Corps: 350,000

Strategic problems facing Malaysia are (1) the ethnic division of the population, especially between ethnic Chinese and Malays; (2) dangers of a revival of insurgency particularly by ethnic Chinese; (3) the long air-sea lines of communications (roughly 400 miles by air) between peninsular West Malaysia and insular East Malaysia (the states of Sarawak and Sabah in Borneo).

Political power in Malaysia traditionally has been in Malay hands, while economic power has been held by others, chiefly the Chinese, who nearly equal in numbers to the Malay in West Malaysia. From time to time, ethnic violence between the two groups threatens to erupt over imagined or real grievances. The largest outbreak occurred in 1969 leading to a state of emergency that lasted until 1971 and the danger of renewed violence always lurks close to the surface. The ethnic split extends into the military, where the Royal Malay Regiment recruits exclusively among Malay.

During the 1947-1960 Communist insurgency, most of the insurgents where ethnic Chinese. The remnants of the insurgents retreated north of the Thai border in 1959-60 and they have been recruiting, training and conducting propaganda efforts since. The terrorist groups now contain large numbers of ethnic Malay and Chinese recruited and based in Thailand. Cooperation between Malaysian military and police and various Thai authorities has been less than satisfactory from Malaysia's perspective, although combined operations in 1977-78 did succeed in penetrating long-time insurgent base areas. The People's Republic of China continues to support the Communist Party of Malaya, mostly through propaganda, although the PRC's government has declared the Malaysian insurgency an internal problem of the Malaysian government.

East Malaysia has generally presented no major problems since the end of the confrontation with Indonesia in 1966. Small, isolated bands of terrorists near the Sarawak-Kalimantan boundary have limited mischief value. The issue of Sabah has caused diplomatic problems with the Philippines but is not likely to lead to open conflict.

Currently, Malaysia is fully responsible for its own security, although Australia and New Zealand maintains a small military advisory group.

Malaysia is a member of the Five-Power Defense Pact. It is also a member of ASEAN.

[dragoon500ly]

Just for grins, here is what the Military Balance and World Military Powers has to say about Australia at the start of the Twilight War (please! be gentle!!!)

Population: 15,438,000
Army: 32,850
1 infantry divisions (of 3 bdes of 2 inf bns ea)
1 armored regt
2 cavalry regts
4 artillery regiments (1 med, 2 field, 1 AD)
1 field engineer regt
1 construction regt
1 Special Air Services regiment
1 aviation regt
1 transport regiment
1 transport air support regt

103 Leopard 1A3 MBT
790 M-113 APC (includes 63 fitted with 76mm guns [48 w/Scorpion; 15
w/Saladin turrets])
34 5.5-inch guns
227 105mm hows
51 106mm RCLs
20 Rapier SAMs
16 Porter ac
11 Nomad ac
47 Bell 206B-1 helos
87 LARC-5 amph vehicles
(on order 36 M-198 155mm hows)
Reserves: 30,306

Navy: 17,146 (including Fleet Air Arm)
6 Oberon-class d-e subs
3 Perth-class destroyers
2 Adelaide-class frigates
6 River-class frigates
20 large patrol craft
2 Ton-class MCM
6 LCT
1 transport
1 destroyer tender
1 fleet tanker

Fleet Air Arm: 1,650
1 composite sqn with 7 S-2G, 2 HS-748 (ECM)
1 ASW sqn with 6 Sea King Mk 50
1 utility/SAR sqn with 16 Wessex 31B, 4 UH-1B, 4 Bell 206B helos
1 training sqn with 5 MB-326H, 2 TA-4G, 4 A-4G
In storage: 10 S-2G, 3 MB-326ac, 3 Wessex helo
(on order 2 Adelaide-class frigates, 6 large patrol craft, 2 MCM catamarans, 6 AS-530 helos, 2 Sea King helos)

Reserves: 1,200 with 5 small patrol craft, 1 LCT

Air Force: 22,477
2 FGA/recon sqns with 16 F-111C, 4 F-111A, 4 RF-111C
3 interceptor sqns with 56 Mirage IIIO
2 MR sqns with 10 P-3B, 10 P-3C
1 OCU sqn with 15 Mirage IIIO/D, 10 MB-326H
1 forward air controller flight with 6 CA-25 Winjeel
2 tpt sqns with 24 C-130E/H
1 tpt flight with 4 Boeing 707-338 (converting to tankers)
1 tpt sqn with 4 DHC-4 ac, 4 UH-1B helo
1 tpt sqn 15 DHC-4
1 tpt sqn with 2 BAC-111, 2 HS-748, 3 Mystere 20
1 med tpt helo sqn with 8 CH-47 Chinook
2 utility helo sqns with 35 UH-1B/H
Trainers include 64 MB-326H, 8 HS-748T2, 51 CT-4/4A
In storage: 4 CH-47 Chinook helos
(on order 75 F/A-18A FGA/interceptors, 10 P-3C MR/ASW, 12 AS-530 helos)
Reserves: 1,200


In 1957, Australia made a fundamental decision to relate the organization and the equipping of its armed forces to United States patterns, which was a major shift from Australia's traditional military relationship with the United Kingdom. While this did not mean any loosening of Australia's Commonwealth ties, it did mean that Australia was realistically conforming to the changed pattern of power in the Pacific and Southwest Asia, where Britain was deliberately reducing its military commitments and responsibilities.

Australia supported the now disbanded Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO) and its commitment to the defense of South Vietnam against Communist aggression. It sent troops to fight beside the Americans and South Vietnamese, while at the same time undertaking a civil program in SOuth Vietnam coordinated with those of the Vietnamese and American governments. In 1971, the Australian troop contingent was withdrawn. A new Labor Party government stopped all participation in the Indochina War in 1972.

The announced withdrawl of most United Kingdom forces from Southeast Asia in 1972 posed a difficult problem for Australia, with its limited population. However, the Five-Power Pact of 1971 has provided a solution that appears satisfactory to all concerned: Australia, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore and the United Kingdom. Australia's contribution to the Australia-New Zealand-U.K. (ANZUK) Force consists of units of the three nations, some on permanent station and some on rotation. With headquarters in Singapore, units also serve in Malaysia. In emergency, the bulk of the five-power forces would come from Malaysia and Singapore.

Several years after World War II, Australia abandoned wartime conscription and returned to a policy of voluntary enlistment. This failed to provide adequate manpower and in 1965 Australia returned to a limited selective service system, in which young men served for 18 months followed by 3 years in the reserve. Conscription was abolished again in 1972.

In general, due to Australia's remoteness from the conflicts of Europe and Asia and its insular geography, strategic problems have been relatively minor. However, with the British decision to withdraw from Southeast Asia and the Indian Ocean, and the impact of modern weapons and transportation technologies, Australia has become more directly concerned with affairs in Asia, particularly Southeast Asia.

Australians are worried about the attraction that their large, rich and sparsely populated country has for the overpopulated nations of East and Southeast Asia. They are particularly concerned that Indonesia, having obtained West Irian (western New Guinea) from the Netherlands, may wish to extend farther eastward to threaten formerly Australian Papua New Guinea. Australia opposed Indonesian incorporation of formerly Portuguese East Timor in 1976.

There are also possibly long term strategic implications in the growing dependence of the Australian economy on trade with Japan. In 1976, a Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation was signed with Japan.

Australia has recently become concerned about Soviet expansion into the Indian Ocean. In 1976 the new Liberal-National government began a five-year $15 billion program to enlarge and update the armed services.

On a wholly cooperative basis, Australia exchanges students at military schools with the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Canada and the United States and exchanges information with these nations within existing alliances. Otherwise, Australia is not the recipient of any formal military assistance.

Australia provided $40.6 million in military assistance to both Malaysia and Singapore between 1964 and 1969. This was accomplished through training missions, either by training in Australia or by transfer of equipment.

Australia is a member of four major overlapping alliances. First, as a member of the Commonwealth, Australia maintains close military ties with the United Kingdom, New Zealand, and to a lesser extent with Canada and the other Commonwealth nations, and it is a member of the Five-Power Pact.

Second, Australia has had a bilateral mutual assistance treaty with the US since 1951. Third, there have been formal and informal cooperative bilateral defense arrangements between Australia and New Zealand, aside from their Commonwealth relationship, since World War II. Fourth, these two bilateral relationships were linked together formally in the Australia-New Zealand-United States (ANZUS) Treaty in 1952.

[Legbreaker]

That unit list for Australia only deals with the regular army and has completely skipped over the reserve forces (which form another Division and round out the first).

[dragoon500ly]

Went digging through some back issues of Military Balance and here is what Mongolia brought to the table in 1985.

Population: 1,750,000
Army: 25,000
2 Infantry Divisions (these are formed along Soviet Motor Rifle lines, but have one battalion per regiment "mothballed")
1 Infantry Brigade (in process of expanding to division)
140 MBT (mix of T-34/85, T-54, T-55)
20 BMP-1
10 SU-100 assault guns
70 BTR-60
40 BTR-152
60 Snapper/Sagger ATGM
mix of 76mm, 100mm, 122mm, 130mm and 152mm artillery pieces (park is est at about 180)
12 SA-2 SAM
40 37mm AA guns
30 57mm AA guns

Reserves: 40,000, will form one infantry division equipped with older weapons and bring active divisions up to full strength.

Air Force: 100 pilots; Soviet technicians form ground crews and support staff, est at 2,100.
1 Fighter Squadron with 12 MiG-21
2 Transport Squadrons with 20 An-2; 19 An-24; 1 An-26
1 Helicopter Squadron with 10 Mi-4

Para-Military Forces:
4 battalions of security police and 2-5 battalions of frontier guards: 18,000
Mongolian Society for the Promotion of the Army: 100,000, this is a pre-military training organization similar to the Soviet Union's DOSAAF.

Mongolia has a unique strategic situation in that it gives defensive depth to the Soviet Union's central Siberia against China. China still claims suzerainty over Mongolia (dating back to the Manchu Dynasty), this claim is rejected by Mongolia. Should China expand into Mongolia, the Soviets would find their major communications link (the Trans-Siberian Railway) within 100 miles of a very unfriendly frontier.

Mongolia guards a bit over 2,500 miles of border with China as well as provides forces to ensure the internal control and security of a large area with the lowest population density in the world. These tasks can only be conducted with massive Soviet support. Soviet Air Defense troops guard the key communications hub of Choibalsan in eastern Mongolia and Soviet MRBM units are based further east, near the Chinese border where they can cover large ares of China as well as US bases in South Korea and Okinawa. Soviet Forces, Mongolia consists of one combined arms army with three motor rifle and one tank division as well as extensive engineer support (10,000 engineers alone).

Mongolia has an alliance of friendship and mutual defense with the Soviet Union (dating back to 1936). This treaty provides for assistance in the event of an attack by a third party. Under its provisions, Mongolia military personnel served in North Korean during the Korean War and provided advisers to North Vietnam during the Vietnam War. Mongolia provided horses, food and winter clothing to the Soviet Union during World War II. Mongolia also has mutual defense treaties with other Communist countries in the Soviet orbit. While Mongolia is not a member of the Warsaw Pact, it is a member of COMECON (Council for Mutual Economic Assistance, this consists of the members of the Warsaw Pact, Mongolia and Cuba).

[pmulcahy11b]

As far as airfields are concerned, Google Maps' satellite view can yield some interesting results. I tried that once on North Korea and was able to pick out lots of big and small airfields, including aircraft type in many cases.

[pmulcahy11b]

Just to give you something while you wait for me to pick apart that book, here's a partial list of PLAAF inventory going back to 1985 and projected to 2025:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...laaf-equip.htm

And here's an OOB on this page. It's current-day, but might give you something to extrapolate from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%...Army_Air_Force