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  #1  
Old 03-26-2014, 07:51 PM
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Default KFS Refit

So in 4th Edition the Morrow Project gets an equipment refit to go with the later start date of the War.

To that end, I feel the KFS should get the same treatment.

New tech for the Rich Five, their minions The 2000, then the secret police and armies of this police state.

From "Bullets & Bluegrass" we know the KFS fields the Thunderbolt fighter bomber, V-300 (and variants), M1 Abrams, M2 Bradleys (both minus fancy electronics or munitions), M102 howitzers for large caliber systems. The troops have Mini 14s for rifles, the CETME SAW, S&W M59 pistol. M2HBs and rifle grenades add punch and supporting fire power. The use M35 (2 1/2ton) trucks and M151 jeeps regularly plus extensive use of horse patrols. They can communicate via radio from the platoon level upward.

What is your take on making the KFS a credible threat to MP personnel except to the fact that there is hundreds of them, and loyal to the Rich Five too?
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Old 03-27-2014, 01:39 PM
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All that stuff sounds mighty credible still, unless the Morrow Project has turned a lot more heavily-armed in the 4th Edition.

The V300 always struck me as a "let's use this, since we have stats on the V150 already" solution. For a "let's stash an army in the early 21st Century" scenario, MRAP vehicles and HMMWV variants would probably be more "in-period" than V300s and M151 "mutts".

The production of M1 tanks, but with different armor, weapons, systems, engine and drive train always struck me as another "let's use an existing published description" problem. It's just "shaped" like an M1 tank at that point. In my opinion, an KFS tank would be the engine, transmission, drivetrain, tracks and suspension of whatever industrial tracked vehicle they use/produce, and simple armored hull and turret, mounting a main gun in a caliber that matches one of their artillery rounds. Building a fake 20th Century main battle tank for a century after they're needed seems a bit odd.

Of course, there might be some political, ceremonial need to make a tank that "looks" like an M1.

The KFS army is described in Bullets and Bluegrass as having seven 1300-man regiments, plus the air force, secret police, etc.. There've been long discussions about the "correct" size of the KFS military, how much manufacturing capacity they would have, etc. The Bullets and Bluegrass book suggests that the KFS is the only source for percussion primers in their trading zone.

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Old 03-27-2014, 03:15 PM
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If the Iowa tank plant and the Anniston Depot are under KFS control, the M1 makes sense as does the M2.

I figure the KFS and most anyone doing any fighting does so in the 18th to mid 19th century style. From the time after crops are planted up until crops need to be harvested. Agriculture being rather labor intensive. I would not doubt that any KFS units supplement their rations (in the corrupt KFS) by growing their own. KFS units might even place a premium on capturing pre-war farming equipment and healthy livestock.

Back to weapons. I think you're right on just using stock 1980's equipment without writing stats for something new. The M35 stats and the M151 stats are in "Liberation at Riverton".

I think that the KFS should be fielding M16s and M4s unless, those are worn out. If they are taking over M1 tanks, M2 IFVs, and M102 howitzers from former army and marine units then why don't they have the small arms too?

So yeah, KFS should have M16A2s. I think it was writers bias. Someone on staff really hates the M16. No reason that the Rich Five can't have the resources and machinery to produce more. If you can make a fusion plant, what is an M16?

I would have expected simpler vehicles even some WW2 and WW1 models, not even American ones at that. Those would be cheaper to make, cheaper to operate, simpler to repair, and easier to operate. The easier to operate would be a factor when you are intentionally limiting education to keep the masses controllable. To the point of fielding things like the Hetzer.
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:32 PM
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The Thunderbolt is a pretty good airplane, especially for what the KFS uses it for. I think there is a strong argument for spotter aircraft like the piper cub and a transport like the DC-3 too. In that vein, rotary wing aircraft too. The KFS has a lot of territory and the pilots of the Thunderbolts are politically connected. I don't see why there isn't a helo standing by in case one of the T-birds gets shot down.

Then the argument for more luxurious or capable aircraft for moving family members of the Rich Five or executives of the 2000 around KFS territory.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:59 PM
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I think the M1 and Bradley seem unlikely, they're the product of a wealthy modern state with near limitless resources.
Where as in the dark future they're 30 and 70 tonnes of heavy metal taking lots of resources too build, gallons of petrol to move.
Like WW2 Tiger tanks they'd be sitting broken down or out fuel by the side of the road.

I'd think they'd be more likely to go along the route of Allied armour units.

Small fast, long range tanks like Shermans or T34s and a few heavily armed tank destroyers for heavier opponents.

It's probably easier to retool the factories that to carry on.

I think the M16 makes more sense, but how popular is a weapon that chews about hundreds of bullets in a sustained firefight. When industrial production is lessened and there isn't a resupply helicopter in the hanger. Perhaps a semi auto version with a smaller magazine.
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Old 03-28-2014, 06:13 PM
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The KFS is described as "not having had a war in a century"; I don't think they would feel the need for tank destroyers (for example) or even, perhaps, tanks.

An armored car should be more than enough to deal with the cap-and-ball musket neighbors; the Air Force can put the fear of death into Truckers and other visiting "trouble".

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Old 03-28-2014, 06:19 PM
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Some of the MRAP vehicles use the 5 or 10 ton "army truck" powertrain, wheels, and automotive systems. I would suspect the KFS might find the same plan to be attractive: pick some heavy truck in production within the KFS, and build an armored body to plonk down on the chassis. Sprinkle with machine guns to taste.

Armor thick enough to stop a .50 cal AP round is probably "tank" level armor in the 22nd Century, in any case (outside of Texas and northern Mexico).

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Old 03-28-2014, 06:41 PM
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I agree with most of what has been said, but I can see the KFS keeping a few Heavy vehicles ready to counter any Morrow Teams still out there.

Morrow Teams (and anyone they train in insurgency) will have many options for dealing with armored trucks, but far fewer to deal with Sherman/M48 level tanks.
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Old 03-28-2014, 07:11 PM
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It's not too clear from Bullets and Bluegrass how long the KFS has been grabbing MP teams and gear ... long enough to have copied fusion reactors, resistweave, and V150s (in the form of V300 armored cars). And of course they probably have known about the Project since before the Atomic War.

In the end, it's a call for the referee/PD to make.

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Old 03-28-2014, 07:22 PM
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There will have to be some sort of adjustment for the 2017 setting because the armor school moved from Fort Knox to Fort Benning in 2010. The M1 tanks and Bradleys that the KFS copied for use against the MP have moved to Georgia.
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Old 03-28-2014, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelrir View Post
It's not too clear from Bullets and Bluegrass how long the KFS has been grabbing MP teams and gear ... long enough to have copied fusion reactors, resistweave, and V150s (in the form of V300 armored cars). And of course they probably have known about the Project since before the Atomic War.

In the end, it's a call for the referee/PD to make.

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The KFS is founded by the Rich Five....... They are five families of industrialists that were part of the Council of Tomorrow.

They didn't steal those things and copy them. They were frozen in their own cryosleep capsules with that stuff and the "2000". Families (minions) loyal to the Rich Five.
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Old 03-28-2014, 07:49 PM
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There will have to be some sort of adjustment for the 2017 setting because the armor school moved from Fort Knox to Fort Benning in 2010. The M1 tanks and Bradleys that the KFS copied for use against the MP have moved to Georgia.
There is plenty at Ft. Campbell and local National Guard units.
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Old 03-29-2014, 06:04 PM
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KFS river monitors? Like the converted LCMs in Viet Nam....
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Old 03-29-2014, 09:29 PM
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The KFS does seem to rely on rivers and mountains for borders. The Tennessee and Ohio Rivers provide a substantial obstacle for any potential invader. The KFS probably monitors and maintains the few bridges and provides the ferries that cross both rivers. I think that the few monitors the KFS has on the rivers are going to be powered by steam. Steam power is sufficient for river travel, is easy to maintain at a lower technology level, and if it falls into 'enemy' hands it is not a technology that would provide said 'enemy' an advantage. Of course, having any significant river transport would require clearing the channel of snags and erecting some wing dams or dikes to coax the flow to a preferred, deeper water channel.
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Old 03-30-2014, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelrir View Post
Some of the MRAP vehicles use the 5 or 10 ton "army truck" powertrain, wheels, and automotive systems. I would suspect the KFS might find the same plan to be attractive: pick some heavy truck in production within the KFS, and build an armored body to plonk down on the chassis. Sprinkle with machine guns to taste.

Armor thick enough to stop a .50 cal AP round is probably "tank" level armor in the 22nd Century, in any case (outside of Texas and northern Mexico).

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Wasn't both the M113 and the V100 powered by the same basic engine as a school bus. So it wouldn't be implausible for KFS to bascially reskin the same basic vehicle.
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Old 03-30-2014, 02:49 PM
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I've been working on a River Commerce supplement to the MP. Totally un-official of course. I've included a two page sample as a pdf file. I work on it from time to time so I have no set deadline or specified completion date.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf MOC River Trade example.pdf (460.4 KB, 67 views)

Last edited by RandyT0001; 03-30-2014 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Not sayin' :P
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Old 03-31-2014, 06:56 PM
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The KFS is described as "not having had a war in a century"; I don't think they would feel the need for tank destroyers (for example) or even, perhaps, tanks.

An armored car should be more than enough to deal with the cap-and-ball musket neighbors; the Air Force can put the fear of death into Truckers and other visiting "trouble".

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Probably not War in the traditional sense of two armies lining up on opposite sides. However, the KFS does have to contend with incursions by Krell, internal rebellions, and probably raids.

So something like the highly mobile indian wars of the late 19th centrury would be appropriate to think about.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:34 PM
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Bullets and Bluegrass, pg. 8

"... it has been well over a hundred years since [the army] has had to fight anything even remotely resembling a war. Fighting starving bands of border raiders and river pirates or suppressing the odd slave revolt has given it an exaggerated view of its own prowess."

Five regiments guard the borders, and two (the 'praetorians') act as rapid reserve, capital defense, and insurance against military mutinies in the other regiments. The Secret Police do the special operations sneaky-pete stuff, and monitor the praetorians especially (at a guess).

The KFS is pretty well equipped to fend off border raiders, river pirates and revolting slaves. And the module recognizes the fact that the greatest threat of "internal rebellion" comes from the armed forces. They deliberately restrict the size and capabilities of the Army for that reason.

The 1st-3rd Editions of the rules, and the scenarios, didn't (if I recall) present any continent-spanning view of what Krell's followers are up to. Their listed "region" in the 3rd Edition covers Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Missouri -- so there's a short border area in common with the KFS. Maybe they're got things in common: the Morrow Project, at least.

Thus: while it's not mentioned in canon, any KFS - Krell conflict seems very likely. Both sides have spent 150 years building up their fighting forces. The Warriors of Krell aren't described as being supported by a large industrial base; they might covet the KFS's "stuff", and would hence be the most potent "border raiders".

Border raiders with the occasional anti-tank mine, LAW rocket, 20mm autocannon, or TOW missile launcher (all from Morrow sources) could do a lot to blunt the KFS technical advantages.

Plus: the Project's members get a mild philosophical twinge when they realize that the River War (between Krell and the KFS) wouldn't even have happened if the Project had never existed.

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Last edited by Gelrir; 03-31-2014 at 10:38 PM. Reason: spelling, boo-boos
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:15 PM
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Might be interesting for a Morrow Team to get stuck between the Krell and the KFS, or to attempt to start a shooting war between the two in an effort to weaken both sides. Useful if the Team wanted to put a kibosh into the KFS's expansion plans.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:29 AM
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Start a war ... to rebuild America!

Maybe something a bit more precise would be better for all the Americans involved.

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Old 04-01-2014, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
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Bullets and Bluegrass, pg. 8

"... it has been well over a hundred years since [the army] has had to fight anything even remotely resembling a war. Fighting starving bands of border raiders and river pirates or suppressing the odd slave revolt has given it an exaggerated view of its own prowess."

Five regiments guard the borders, and two (the 'praetorians') act as rapid reserve, capital defense, and insurance against military mutinies in the other regiments. The Secret Police do the special operations sneaky-pete stuff, and monitor the praetorians especially (at a guess).

The KFS is pretty well equipped to fend off border raiders, river pirates and revolting slaves. And the module recognizes the fact that the greatest threat of "internal rebellion" comes from the armed forces. They deliberately restrict the size and capabilities of the Army for that reason.

The 1st-3rd Editions of the rules, and the scenarios, didn't (if I recall) present any continent-spanning view of what Krell's followers are up to. Their listed "region" in the 3rd Edition covers Minnesota, Iowa, Illinois, and Missouri -- so there's a short border area in common with the KFS. Maybe they're got things in common: the Morrow Project, at least.

Thus: while it's not mentioned in canon, any KFS - Krell conflict seems very likely. Both sides have spent 150 years building up their fighting forces. The Warriors of Krell aren't described as being supported by a large industrial base; they might covet the KFS's "stuff", and would hence be the most potent "border raiders".

Border raiders with the occasional anti-tank mine, LAW rocket, 20mm autocannon, or TOW missile launcher (all from Morrow sources) could do a lot to blunt the KFS technical advantages.

Plus: the Project's members get a mild philosophical twinge when they realize that the River War (between Krell and the KFS) wouldn't even have happened if the Project had never existed.

--
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Krell appears to be like the Mongolian Horde. The move from region to region plundering then return to their home base. Krell are in Washington State, (Operation Final Watch) with a ship and quite a few men. The Krell are on the periphery in Operation Lonestar but, play an insignificant role. Possibly planning a move on the Lonestar Republic if the Brotherhood wins or if the Army at Ft. Hood is weak. Everyone covets the oil and the ability to refine it. Of course, the Krell are also in Idaho (150 years in the past) for Prime Base.

With a shift in the extraction of natural resources in the U.S. since third edition was published; coupled with the loss of major manufacturing in the Great Lakes region, encounter groups locations need a major re-write.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:09 PM
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Might be interesting for a Morrow Team to get stuck between the Krell and the KFS, or to attempt to start a shooting war between the two in an effort to weaken both sides. Useful if the Team wanted to put a kibosh into the KFS's expansion plans.
There is a chance to start a fight between Krell and Maxwell's Militia in "Operation at Riverton" as well as in "Operation Lucifer".

No Krell in "Operation Damocles" but there is ample reason to draw them in when Damocles begins broadcasting MP wakeup signals really loudly. Then there is ample recruits for the Krell in all the encampments of "Cons" throughout the Upper Peninsula that have every reason to hate the Finns and WANT to join Krell.
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Old 04-01-2014, 10:55 PM
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Start a war ... to rebuild America!

Maybe something a bit more precise would be better for all the Americans involved.

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150 years after a nuclear war the various factions aren't really the American ideal anymore. They probably don't even call themselves American anymore. There something different and will need to be broken so something better can be built up to replace it. Starting a war between the Krell and the KFS would get there attention on each other, wasting rescources and even keeping them contained from expansion into more free areas. Hopefully it will be a long war and attrition will bring the victor down low enough the Project or better yet internal problems can bring down the victor from within.
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Old 04-02-2014, 11:50 AM
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150 years after a nuclear war the various factions aren't really the American ideal anymore. They probably don't even call themselves American anymore. There something different and will need to be broken so something better can be built up to replace it. Starting a war between the Krell and the KFS would get there attention on each other, wasting rescources and even keeping them contained from expansion into more free areas. Hopefully it will be a long war and attrition will bring the victor down low enough the Project or better yet internal problems can bring down the victor from within.
I see your point, however.

Such a war would be bad for the KFS and strengthen the Krell. The Krell don't have a country or a capital to take over. They are akin to the Mongolian Horde. The Krell sweep over an area and eat it clean, then move on.

There is the potential to lose more of civilization and something that could be built up and turned to more barbarism and loss.
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Old 04-02-2014, 02:43 PM
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And, ya know, kill a lot of people. "The Rich Five tyrannize 98% of their society; how many ordinary citizens can we kill before we're worse than the Rich Five?".

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Old 04-02-2014, 02:47 PM
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150 years after a nuclear war the various factions aren't really the American ideal anymore. They probably don't even call themselves American anymore. There something different and will need to be broken so something better can be built up to replace it.
That's another big philosophical point for teams to ponder: if there aren't any people calling themselves Americans, should they inhabitants of North American be swept clear with fire and sword so that you can "Rebuild America"? I dunno that "breaking" everyone in North America to fit your goal is very nice.

Yes, maybe instigating a civil war among the Warriors of Krell or the subjects of the KFS would be a good thing -- they deserve better governments, most Morrow folks would agree. Destroying them en masse isn't the same as a beneficial revolution.

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Old 04-02-2014, 05:26 PM
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And, ya know, kill a lot of people. "The Rich Five tyrannize 98% of their society; how many ordinary citizens can we kill before we're worse than the Rich Five?".

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Look. Sarcasm and snarky replies are not going to be appreciated by the community. If you don't like what we have to say, try to frame it in some constructive criticism.
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Old 04-10-2014, 04:54 PM
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I think as I've said before Krell and Kansas etc don't need to reinvent the wheel in so much as discover it. So they may be able to come up with short cuts technologically that will give quite a shock.

Take for example whatever sort of light tank, apc etc they decide to go for.

If they fit it with anti spalling pads inside, a very basic fire extinguishing system, lockers for ammo and some of those anti rocket bar systems that are all the rage in downtown Basra. Then now their v300 is not impregnable, but certainly able to survive a good few LAW hits.
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Old 04-11-2014, 09:59 AM
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I think as I've said before Krell and Kansas etc don't need to reinvent the wheel in so much as discover it. So they may be able to come up with short cuts technologically that will give quite a shock.

Take for example whatever sort of light tank, apc etc they decide to go for.

If they fit it with anti spalling pads inside, a very basic fire extinguishing system, lockers for ammo and some of those anti rocket bar systems that are all the rage in downtown Basra. Then now their v300 is not impregnable, but certainly able to survive a good few LAW hits.
Krell? Probably not so much. Thought and innovation are discouraged. Molotovs and satchel bag bombs and some captured MP gear.

The KFS on the other hand, Yes. Especially the "Praetorians" and the Secret Police force. The regular army? Possibly not.

The KFS V-300s with the 90mm gun would just need the slat armor system and possibly a fire system to get there.
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Old 05-20-2014, 07:26 PM
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Since the Rich Five is the tech equal of the Project.

Where and in what way do you suppose they use cryosleep beds, fusion reactors, and megawatt lasers?

Do they freeze squads of the best and loyal warriors for time of war?

Do they withhold fusion power from even the Two Thousand?
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