The Psychology of Prime Base

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by tsofian

Why do you assume that BEM was working in a single timeline?

Because it gives everything meaning. If there is one timeline, fighting for it is important. If there a million, it doesn't matter - it's just statistics.

Originally Posted by tsofian

If he knew everything about the future how did everything get so FUBAR?

He is a time traveler, not a god. He is neither omniscient nor omnipotent, and the nature of his time travel almost certainly imposed limitation. You can do everything right and still fail.

Originally Posted by tsofian

Is this the best Bruce could put together?

It isn't a performance review. He built something amazing. That it failed due to unforeseeable factors outside his control is NOT his fault.

Originally Posted by tsofian

If Bruce has too much specific information about the future there end up being a lot of questions.

He is a mortal man. Limitations on his knowledge are natural, especially about post-war when he can't grab a newspaper or check the internet.

Originally Posted by tsofian

Did he know how the war started? If so could he not have prevented it?

Probably not, but even if he did it is a whole different matter to day he could have prevented it even with the CoT. Wars don't start from single events, they happen due to the history of millions and millions of people, and derailing that is all but impossible. Again, he's not a god.

Originally Posted by tsofian

How did he let Prime get knocked out? Could he have stopped Krell?

By being a mere imperfect human being. And... no? Define exactly what Krell is and I'll give a better answer.

Originally Posted by tsofian

Instead, I have always felt that is an ever-branching river. Ever decision point leads to a new path. Infinite numbers of BEMs move through infinite iterations of the multiverse. In some, the War comes far earlier than in others. In some, it NEVER happens. In some, the Project hops right out of bed and gets to it. Two other versions are the versions in print, classic and current.

As previously mentioned, I dislike this because it makes it just another round of a video game. A million BEMs try to save their worlds. Some WILL succeed. Some WILL fail. Why should a being able to know that care about any one of those worlds? I prefer the tension of knowing that there is one world and the consequences are therefore total.

Originally Posted by tsofian

This also means that every PD is playing in their own version of the realities BEM was trying to prepare for the future.

This... is irrelevant. Every game in existence has multiple groups playing in as many variations. I don't need a multi-universe theory to be okay with that.

[.45cultist]

TMP meets the "12 Monkeys".

[tsofian]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Because it gives everything meaning. If there is one timeline, fighting for it is important. If there a million, it doesn't matter - it's just statistics.

Really, how do the people in the universe know its one in a million? To the people in it (except for time travelers) there is only one so to them, it is worth fighting for.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by tsofian

Really, how do the people in the universe know its one in a million? To the people in it (except for time travelers) there is only one so to them, it is worth fighting for.

But BEM is a time traveller. Either he knows that there are multiple universes (in which case he has to know that he is merely moving his personal consciousness between them without really changing anything and that therefore his efforts are meaningless) or he doesn't (in which case the whole "multiple universes" idea becomes completely and totally irrelevant).

Note that it is possible to be working in a single, mutable timeline... it just means that certain paradoxes and issues become problems and others don't. If there are multiple timelines then nothing matters, because jumping back immediately mandates that you move onto a wholly new timeline. The original timeline was predicated on you doing certain things, and there is 0% chance that you jump into the future and back again and continue your life 100% exactly as you would have had you not made those jumps. You go back and make some changes, no matter how small, and that means you are in a new universe.

But what about the old universe? It has to exist, to avoid paradoxes, and therefore it must presumably continue. This means that the apocalypse is still happening in that universe, you have just entered a new universe where it is ameliorated somewhat.

But doesn't that mean you at least saved the new universe? No. Because unless you invested a universe's worth of energy, you didn't create that universe, you just moved into it. Indeed, there are a lot of theories that suggest that time travel is impossible for these reasons without either there being infinite universes or a single mutable universe that allows for "sideways time" or some other method that describes how you can change a universe without changing it.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by tsofian

Really, how do the people in the universe know its one in a million? To the people in it (except for time travelers) there is only one so to them, it is worth fighting for.

They may understand that one way or the other, that this is their universe because they cannot personally time travel out of it. But it still has a potentially huge moral, philosophical, and theological impact that could undermine morale, and I would expect this to be an area where the members of the Project were both impressively well educated and very passionate. The fact of the apocalypse, demonstrated through the artifacts of time travel, are at the core of recruiting for the Project. They are not trying to lessen a potential apocalypse, they are trying to lessen a definite and proven apocalypse. I cannot imagine that there are many teams of educated, passionate people, sacrificing everything they have based on the word of a time traveler, who would not intensely debate the implications of time travel.

Heck, I don't know how you get them in the tubes without them having an answer. Maybe the Project was only able to recruit the ones who would accept without questioning? If so, I cannot imagine they have many real scientists.

Wait... new idea for Krell: He was a Morrow team member who understood the terrible implications of time travel, understood that there were infinite universes and that therefore had nothing had any meaning. So he said "to heck with it!" and became a nihilist. Or decided that he needed to eliminate time travel (aka BEM) and potentially everyone who knew that it was a real thing. That's why he hates the Project, he is trying to return the Earth to an innocent time when people thought their lives had any uniqueness or meaning.

[gamerguy]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Wait... new idea for Krell: He was a Morrow team member who understood the terrible implications of time travel, understood that there were infinite universes and that therefore had nothing had any meaning. So he said "to heck with it!" and became a nihilist. Or decided that he needed to eliminate time travel (aka BEM) and potentially everyone who knew that it was a real thing. That's why he hates the Project, he is trying to return the Earth to an innocent time when people thought their lives had any uniqueness or meaning.

In the universe I played in Krell was a Morrow Industries or COT underling who had some special ability (deal with local authorities) so limited use. He found out too much about TMP for his security level and not being accepted as a team member knew his fate.

He punched out with enough on the project to be dangerous but made himself important and known enough in political circles he couldn't have an accident. He was just a worker, not a team member so he never disappeared.

He raided a bolt hole, spaced the team and set himself up for the big sleep. In his case he woke up on time and proceeded to build an empire from the ashes. He compromised many teams and used their bolt holes to keep re-freezing himself for 10 year jumps. Came awake for a year directing his empire then back to bed. His paranoia combined with the repeated freeze thaw cycles twisted him into what he became. Plus those he left in charge during his down time had their own agendas further warping the empire. By the time I was out he was the god like leader who never died, just long sleeps. I tried to help him along to THE BIG SLEEP but no joy and the Amerindian Nations suffered his wrath as they were receiving my help in those days. He also stopped sleeping after my attack as he personally wanted revenge.

BTW BEM did not die, although I felt he wanted to. I have met him twice since I was activated. Having worked for Morrow Industries pre war on a few adaptations of vehicles for TMP use I had met him a few times in the before.