RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-04-2013, 05:51 PM
Wolf sword Wolf sword is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Brunsville MN
Posts: 41
Default Bike Infantry

Now forgive me if this was covered before, I did not find a thread on it.
Bicycle Infantry, why don't we see more of it in T2000? One would think that this would be an no brainer, your mechanized infantry regiment is all out of mechanized items, change them over to bikes. Yes they don't move as fast as they did, when they had the fuel but they will move faster then on foot.
It was used in Europe between WW1 and into early ww2 so why don't we see it? Is their something that I'm missing?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-04-2013, 06:12 PM
kato13's Avatar
kato13 kato13 is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chicago, Il USA
Posts: 3,337
Send a message via ICQ to kato13
Default

This thread

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2649

Starts out about Cavalry but moves onto bikes as well with probably about 40 posts regarding them. Probably our most in depth discussion of them.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-04-2013, 06:24 PM
Wolf sword Wolf sword is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Brunsville MN
Posts: 41
Default

Thanks, I missed that one.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-04-2013, 06:26 PM
kato13's Avatar
kato13 kato13 is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chicago, Il USA
Posts: 3,337
Send a message via ICQ to kato13
Default

It is easy to miss stuff. Glad to help.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-23-2018, 02:33 PM
Silent Hunter UK Silent Hunter UK is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 296
Default

I'd argue that one reason they don't get to be used is that they don't feel "right" for the setting. People's post-apocalypse media does not tend to involve heroes riding pedal bikes, it doesn't look gritty enough.

Seriously, can you imagine Tom Hardy riding a BMX to a battle?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-23-2018, 03:19 PM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 2,588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf sword View Post
Now forgive me if this was covered before, I did not find a thread on it.
Bicycle Infantry, why don't we see more of it in T2000? One would think that this would be an no brainer, your mechanized infantry regiment is all out of mechanized items, change them over to bikes. Yes they don't move as fast as they did, when they had the fuel but they will move faster then on foot.
It was used in Europe between WW1 and into early ww2 so why don't we see it? Is their something that I'm missing?
I don't think that the original writers thought of it. It's easy to overlook, if one's not heavily read on WWII military history. Another possibility is that thought that bicycle-mounted infantry would be too vulnerable on the modern battlefield, and ruled it out as not believable to the layman (basically, what Silent Hunter said) I don't really know.

Regarding the military use of bicycles in WWII, bicycle infantry was used right up to the end of the war. The Volksturm had tank hunter-killer units- consisting mostly of children- equipped with bicycles and Panzerfausten. As the Germans ran out of trucks and petrol, several formerly motorized units were issued bicycles. The British even had a folding bicycle for some of their Parachute reconnaissance units.

I'd have to take a look, but I don't think Free City of Krakow featured any bicycle-mounted infantry. As described in the module, Krakow would definitely be able to manufacture basic bicycles. In my Pirates of the Vistula PbP campaign, I had Krakow doing so and, although they never featured in the story, my version of the Krakow ORMO OOB included a battalion mounted on bicycles.

In the latest edition of my Rook's Gambit Module (available on DrivethruRPG for $2.99), one of the Polish 19th Cavalry Division's infantry companies is bicycle-mounted (see page 25).

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/...--Rooks-Gambit
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis. - Erasmus
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-23-2018, 11:44 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,191
Default

The Japanese also had bike infantry as well - from what I remember they used them in Malaya and other areas and they were used extensively in China.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-26-2018, 08:50 AM
unkated unkated is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Eastern Massachusetts
Posts: 404
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
The Japanese also had bike infantry as well - from what I remember they used them in Malaya and other areas and they were used extensively in China.
Bicycle infantry was mostly a between the wars concept, a mechanically mounted infantry before motorized infantry - and skips the stabling and finding fodder on the move parts of mounted. By WW2, the only military that used bicycle infantry in action (that i know of) were the Japanese in Malaya, where they had little ability to land vehciles (and had few vehicles available).

There was a case of the Australian 2/30 battalion pulling off a nasty ambush on a Japanese bicycle regiment at the Gemencheh River (14-Jan-42).

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C175811
https://www.230battalion.org.au/hist...wm67_3_111.htm

Uncle Ted
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-26-2018, 10:47 AM
Adm.Lee Adm.Lee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 1,212
Default

From various wargames, I know the Belgians had a bicycle brigade in 1940, and as late as the 1944 Normandy campaign, the Germans had separate brigades and battalions on bikes. ISTR some German infantry divisions about the same time mounted their reserve battalions, or at least some elements of them.
__________________
My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-27-2018, 07:28 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,191
Default

Actually the Japanese bicycle infantry were a prime reason they won in Malaysia -and they managed to find all the bikes they needed once they got ashore - a prime example of living off the land.

And with fuel becoming short after 1998 I could see a lot of soldiers, on both sides, switching to bikes as an alternative to walking everywhere or having to wait for weeks to brew enough fuel to be able to fill the fuel tanks of their vehicles - and there would be huge numbers of bicycles available in Europe for sure.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-27-2018, 07:34 AM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,321
Default

I see bikes as being useful in safer areas, but stupidly dangerous when contact with the enemy is likely.
A cyclist is moving too fast to keep proper awareness of their surrounds along a fairly restricted and obvious route. The risk of rolling into an ambush with devastating results is extreme as can be seen in the links unkated posted.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-27-2018, 09:33 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,191
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
I see bikes as being useful in safer areas, but stupidly dangerous when contact with the enemy is likely.
A cyclist is moving too fast to keep proper awareness of their surrounds along a fairly restricted and obvious route. The risk of rolling into an ambush with devastating results is extreme as can be seen in the links unkated posted.
I agree - bike infantry is a great way to give you better mobility but it has the same issues that motorcycle infantry had - but without the greater speed to get out of dodge if you get ambushed - on the other hand they are much quieter than powered vehicles so they do make for good scout vehicles

as for the routes - depends what types of bikes you have - i.e. a mountain bike is literally the "roads, where we are going we dont need roads" kind of vehicle - its not a jeep but its better than just walking

and considering the authors of the canon went out of their way to mention cities still making bicycles its pretty much implied they are being used a lot by 2001
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-27-2018, 03:20 PM
CDAT CDAT is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 280
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
I agree - bike infantry is a great way to give you better mobility but it has the same issues that motorcycle infantry had - but without the greater speed to get out of dodge if you get ambushed - on the other hand they are much quieter than powered vehicles so they do make for good scout vehicles

as for the routes - depends what types of bikes you have - i.e. a mountain bike is literally the "roads, where we are going we dont need roads" kind of vehicle - its not a jeep but its better than just walking

and considering the authors of the canon went out of their way to mention cities still making bicycles its pretty much implied they are being used a lot by 2001
My question is how much weight can a decent mountain bike hold before having issues with welds, bending of tires or what not? I have seen some large people on mountain bikes (not sure quality of bike) that the wheels are no longer round, and just using me as an example when I was in fighting shape I was between 230lbs and 250lbs and then add in the combat gear my vest in 2003 weighed in at about 75lbs, add ten more for rifle, pistol and helmet and we are looking at 315lbs to 335lbs (and I was not the largest by far in my unit, kind of on the smaller side of average). I know very little about bikes, but back to my question how well will the bikes hold up to that weight when going down trails and hitting bumps and such? I can see them working much better in WWII time when one the average person was lighter and the combat load was much lighter, but I am also willing to say I may be missing a major factor that I know nothing about.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-27-2018, 04:05 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,191
Default

One thing to keep in mind for loading on the bikes is that by 1999-2001 the food situation in Europe may be keeping people on the lean side no matter what - i.e. I dont see many people being well fed by then and that will reduce loading on the bikes

also bicycle born infantry may require that you be more lightly loaded - thus arent going to see someone with a full combat load on a bike unless they were small to begin with

Per the original rules - Bicycles: A bicycle has no load of its own; a character riding a bicycle can carry his personal load. He travels at half
speed if encumbered. If unable to ride (see Terrain below) a character may walk his bicycle at his off-road walking speed; its weight does not count against his load limit. it says that they cant go thru swamps or forest except along a dirt road - however I cant see what they are defining as a bike - i.e. a regular bike or a mountain bike

From the description in the game it sounds like a military version of a bicycle made for the military and not just a Schwinn -

i.e. Bicycle: A rugged, military model. Bicycles are among the few vehicles still being manufactured in any quantity.
Tr Mov: 60/20, Com Mov: 20/10, Wt: 15 kg, Price: $1000 (V/V)

Last edited by Olefin; 06-28-2018 at 08:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-28-2018, 01:27 AM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,633
Default

Aside from those bikes being manufactured for military purposes in the gameworld (which would necessarily be more rugged), I'm willing to argue that GDW's ideas about bikes were probably in some part, formed from Viet Cong/North Vietnamese use of bikes during the Vietnam War (given that a few of the contributing writers at the time were former US military and veterans of the Vietnam War).
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-28-2018, 09:54 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDAT View Post
My question is how much weight can a decent mountain bike hold before having issues with welds, bending of tires or what not? I have seen some large people on mountain bikes (not sure quality of bike) that the wheels are no longer round, and just using me as an example when I was in fighting shape I was between 230lbs and 250lbs and then add in the combat gear my vest in 2003 weighed in at about 75lbs, add ten more for rifle, pistol and helmet and we are looking at 315lbs to 335lbs (and I was not the largest by far in my unit, kind of on the smaller side of average). I know very little about bikes, but back to my question how well will the bikes hold up to that weight when going down trails and hitting bumps and such? I can see them working much better in WWII time when one the average person was lighter and the combat load was much lighter, but I am also willing to say I may be missing a major factor that I know nothing about.
I have some real experience here. Before I started riding dirt bikes, I rode BMX competitively (imagine ME enthralled by a machine, hard to believe isn't it ). I continued to ride mountain bikes regularly until I jumped into a big rig full time. I used mountain bikes to "rehab" from my leg injuries. I still have my 2000 Kona ManoMano and ride a 2015 Pivot Mach 6 today. Here's a little background on bikes in 2000.

Types of Bikes:

Cruisers: These bikes are what most non-riders think of when you say bicycle. These bikes are upright in Geometry with lightly built frames and wheels. Their tires aren't as narrow as Road Bikes but also not as wide as Mountain Bikes. The average tire pressure is 50lbs. The Cruiser is designed to be ridden on the road and can be MISERABLE riding offroad (a lot of time standing on the pedals to absorb bumps). They can be fitted with seat packs (small stowage under the seat), handlebar packs (in front and under the handlebars), D-Frame stowage (a pack inside the frame between the seat and handlebars) IF the frame is a D-Frame (many are "step-throughs" with a collapsed top tube). They can also fit saddle bags on racks that cover the wheels (they are "touring bikes" by design). The ride is UPRIGHT which can compromise handling in climbs. There are roughly three quality levels with overlap in price and capability occurring...

-"Basic Versions" ($100) often have Skid Brakes (where you pedal backwards to stop), a Single Speed drivetrain, and are mostly Rigid (no suspension front or back). They could support around 150kg to 200kg. The weights of these bikes will exceed 15kg.
-"Intermediate Versions" ($300 to $500) often have hand brakes (like motorcycles), a 3 or 5-speed drivetrain, and a Rigid rear end with a suspension front fork (this configuration is known as a "Hardtail"). These versions will support 200kg to 300kg and suspension models will NOT allow the use of either front saddlebags or handlebar bags (they interfere with the suspension fork). They will weight around 12kg to 15kg.
-"High-Performance Versions" will have 7-speed to 10-speed drivetrains, disc brakes, a suspension Seatpost and an AIR-RIDE fully tunable Fork. They will support more than 300kg and will weight around 10kg. They can top $1000 in cost.

The RECUMBENT Cruiser: This special type of Cruiser shows up at the turn of the Century and comes in all three price points. The Recumbent has the rider in a full RECLINING position as they ride. Some recumbents are two-wheeled while a select few are Trikes (with two wheels in front and a $2K price tag). They are more "aerodynamic" and thus faster than normal Cruisers on flat ground but very poor climbers.

The Trike Cruiser: These three-wheeled Cruisers are like the famous "Big Wheel." They have two wheels in back and one up front. They are poor climbers but are VERY stable and are often used to pull small carts. These are a STAPLE form of transport in Asia. Rickshaws are the ultimate expression of the Trike in my mind.

The BMX and Jump Bikes: These bikes are almost always D-Framed (for strength) "Hardtails" with oversized tubes and an upright Geometry. Their wheels are usually "Mag Wheels" for maximum resistance to deformation/bending (known euphemistically as "tacoing a rim") as these bikes are built for JUMPING. Their tires are WIDE like Mountain Bike tires but they run Skid Brakes as standard. They have NO kickstand and all bars are covered in "crash pads" (which really do not save your nuts). Peddals are large platforms. The basic models (starting at about $150) run into the 16kg range while the high-end models (around $1,000) will be around 10kg. All of these models can support around 350kg.

Road Bikes: These bikes are most associated with racing like the Tour De France and come in three basic price points (like Cruisers and Mountain Bikes) and are optimized for HIGH-SPEED ROAD performance. They are long in wheelbase (to aid in climbing) and the rider is forced into an "aerodynamic tuck" by their geometry. They are ALWAYS rigid (to prevent suspensions from absorbing pedaling inputs) and their VERY THIN wheels (26") were evolving into 700mm rims (because larger rims will carry momentum into climbs). Those rims would be inflated to 100PSI or more (to reduce rolling resistance) and have the equivalent of racing slicks on them. Brakes are Linear-Pull (two drag arms against the tire rubber) front and back and drive trains start at 24 speeds and move up to 27-speed versions. The Road Bike is specced for light weight and suffers in both load and durability accordingly. They are a NIGHTMARE to ride offroad but can achieve speeds in excess 40mph on level ground with a high-end bike and a good rider. Most of these bikes will support 100kg to 150kg without bending a rim. The three differing price points will vary in two areas, drivetrain quality and weight. These are some of the lightest bikes available.
-"Base Models" will have 3 sprockets on the cranks and 8 gears on the rear hub for 24 speeds. They will weight about 12kg to 14kg and have platform pedals. Those pedals will often be equipped with toe straps to allow a pedaling motion on the upstroke as well. The drivetrain will be a basic one like Shimano LX Deore. A base model will run around $500.
-"intermediate Models" will have 3 sprockets on the cranks and 9 gears on the rear hub for 27 speeds. They will weight between 10kg and 12kg and use "Clips" (Clipless Pedals) to gain power. Clips are a special pedal that "clips" to a special "cleat" installed in a special riding shoe. Clips allow power on all points of the pedal stroke and enable you to jump the wheels (because your feet are LITERALLY Clipped to the pedals). The drive train is of a superior type like the Shimano XT and these bikes are around $1000 in 2000 ($5k today).
-"High-End Models" will just be getting 30-speed drivetrains (3 X 10) but most will be precision 27-Speed drivetrains. These bikes will be 10kg OR LESS (14lbs is NOT uncommon) and run the highest specced parts (Shimano XTR). Some versions will be made in Scandium or Titanium. They will be $2000+ (for Aluminum).

Road Bikes can use all of the cargo types that rigid Cruisers can use. Road Bikes with forward and rear saddle bags touring on the highway are a common sight before the Twilight War.

Mountain Bikes: These are broken into three main and one subtype and come in both Full Suspension (fore and aft) and Hardtail (fork only) versions in the XC and Trail Bikes. The Four* types are Cross Country (XC), Trail Bikes, Downhill Bikes (DH) and Free Ride Bikes (a heavy-duty version of downhill bikes). Most cheap Mountain Bikes will use the same Linear-Pull brakes that road bikes use but higher end bikes will use Disc Brakes (either mechanical or hydraulic). Mountain bikes also come in three "price points" just like the other major classes.

-"XC Bikes" are the mountain bike "cousins" of the road bikes above. They are optimized for weight (giving their riders the nickname "weight weenies") and have the same Geometry as road bikes (to optimize climbing). Hardtails still dominate (because suspensions will "bob" with hard pedal inputs) and the suspension is around 3". Basic models will have 24-speed drivetrains while high-end versions will sport 27-speed drivetrains, clips, and titanium/scandium frames. Linear Pull Brakes are more common due to their lighter weight. Tire sizes are 26" (universal in Mountain Bikes) and 2" wide tires are usually the limit. Basic bikes ($500) will support around 150kg while high-end bikes ($2000+) can support 400kg or more and will use tuneable air forks. Weight will range from 12kg down to 10kg. The sub-20-pound mountain bike DOES NOT EXIST in 2000 (it's 2005 before carbon fiber makes this possible).
-"Trail Bikes" form the largest segment of mountain bikes. They feature a more upright stance/Geometry for jumping hazards and dual suspension with climbing lockouts (to prevent "bob"). Both the "Dually" and the "Hardtail" will use 2" tires with a weight in the 20lbs PSI range (for traction) and the average suspension travel is 4". 50% of Trail Bikes are still Hardtails as suspensions are still developing (high-end models will have air suspension and lockouts for climbing). Weights carried are comparable to XC bikes as are costs. One place where Trail Bikes vary from XC bikes in 2000 is that the MAJORITY of Trail Bikes will have Disc Brakes with lower end models having mechanical discs and high-end bikes having hydraulic disc brakes.
-"Downhill Bikes" these bikes are optimized for racing downhill. In 2000, they have dual disc brakes, dual suspension with 8" of travel, and heavy-duty frames for jumping heights of up to 20 feet. Tires will be 3" wide and air pressure will be 25lbs. Low-end bikes will weight 20kg+ and high-end bikes will go around 15kg and they will support 500kg easily. NOBODY rides a DH Bike uphill. Prices range from $1,000 to $4,000.
-"Freeride Bikes" these bikes are developments of DH bikes for stunt riding. They are 23kg and ONLY come as high-end custom builds (you DON'T buy a Freeride bike at WALMART). $5,000+ is not uncommon.

Notes on Bikes:

Carrying a load on a bike is tricky. It must be properly balanced or it will affect your handling. If you look at riding hydration packs like the Camelback Mule (my favorite), they are situated lower on the rider's back to keep the load to the rider's center of gravity. Weapons will also affect a Rider's ability to control the bike. I require that ALL RIDERS (bike and horse) wearing a weapon that is SLUNG must use a weapon who's Bulk is less than their STATURE (I still use this even in V2.2). I would say Bulk 5 is as large as a bike rider can go without the weapon hitting the bike frame or the Rider's leg.

The typical rider will be faster than a marching soldier. The typical soldier can manage around 6km per hour over terrain while a typical mountain biker could average 15km over terrain of the same type.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-29-2018, 05:44 AM
StainlessSteelCynic's Avatar
StainlessSteelCynic StainlessSteelCynic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,633
Default

Some really useful info in your post Swaghauler. It's at times like this we need a thumbs up (or other "like" option) button!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-29-2018, 07:44 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,191
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
Some really useful info in your post Swaghauler. It's at times like this we need a thumbs up (or other "like" option) button!
Completely agree with the need for the thumbs up button. Would make a great article for the fan magazine or to add to a new module release.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-29-2018, 11:07 AM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 2,588
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
I see bikes as being useful in safer areas, but stupidly dangerous when contact with the enemy is likely.
A cyclist is moving too fast to keep proper awareness of their surrounds along a fairly restricted and obvious route. The risk of rolling into an ambush with devastating results is extreme as can be seen in the links unkated posted.
Agreed. However, I think that bicycle infantry really come into their own as a mobile reserve/reaction force (in the context of T2K). Say a patrol or outpost comes under attack. Bicycle infantry can respond much faster that foot-bound infantry. They would operate like dragoons, riding to the battle area, but dismounting- out of effective small arms range of the enemy- to fight on foot. That's where BI can really shine.
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis. - Erasmus

Last edited by Raellus; 06-29-2018 at 01:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-29-2018, 01:00 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,191
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
Agreed. However, I think that bicycle infantry really come into there own as a mobile reserve/reaction force (in the context of T2K). Say a patrol or outpost comes under attack. Bicycle infantry can respond much faster that foot-bound infantry. They would operate like dragoons, riding to the battle area, but dismounting- out of effective small arms range of the enemy- to fight on foot. That's where BI can really shine.
Exactly!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-29-2018, 10:33 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,321
Default

Yes, as a method of moving reserve forces around they'd be pretty good, but dangerous at the front itself. Not as fast as vehicles (obviously) but certainly quicker and less fatiguing that marching.

My thoughts are that any bikes made from around mid 97 onwards are likely to be of the cruiser type. Simple, all round machines that can work on most terrain, although not optimised for any.
Prewar machines would still be in use of course when and where available.
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-30-2018, 09:28 AM
lordroel lordroel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: The Neterlands
Posts: 107
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olefin View Post
The Japanese also had bike infantry as well - from what I remember they used them in Malaya and other areas and they were used extensively in China.
The Netherlands also had bike infantry during World War II, can see them being used again during the Twilight War.

__________________
| Alternate Timelines | home of a small but active alternate history community |
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-02-2018, 12:46 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 2,191
Default

I agree with you there Roel - again used as dragoons - i.e. you get to where you have to fight with the bicycles and then fight on foot - or you use them to patrol in relatively safe areas to conserve your alcohol fuel for vehicles that can go into harms way in the areas that arent safe at all
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-03-2018, 09:14 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 860
Default Movement in Twilight V2.2

One thing this Thread highlights for me is the very general way Twilight2000 handles movement. I use movement as a plot device in my campaigns so I tie it to the Character's physical Characteristic scores.

A Character can march a number of Kilometers per HOUR (X4 for period movement) equal to THE AVERAGE (rounding down) of that Character's STR, CON and AGL (ie STR+CON+AGL/3). So a perfectly average Character can move 5km per hour (20km per period).

A Riding Animal (4 legged) can move THE AVERAGE of their STR, CON, and AGL (I assign these to horses, mules, camels etc...) BUT a rider can push his mount (with a skill roll AND a risk of injuring the mount) to move up to THE TOTAL of STR, CON, and AGL. So an average animal being pushed COULD average 15km per HOUR (60km per 4 hour Period).

A Character can ride a bike a total number of Kilometers equal to the TOTAL of STR, CON, and AGL per HOUR (X4 per Period). Thus a perfectly average Character could do 15km per hour (60km per Period).

This gets really fun when you have elderly civilians and young children (who have scores of 1 or 2) whom you are trying to evacuate in the face of an advancing enemy force.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-03-2018, 11:46 PM
Legbreaker's Avatar
Legbreaker Legbreaker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Posts: 4,321
Default

5 kph is pretty slow really - patrol speed which is slow enough to allow proper awareness of your surroundings.
Faster than that is quite possible (I've done around 10 kph fully loaded), but awareness drops dramatically and fatigue becomes much more of an issue. You REALLY don't want to be doing that sort of speed for more than a couple of hours.
Slower and you tend to get bored (again with a drop in awareness) EXCEPT in close terrain such as urban or jungle. In REALLY close terrain (can't see more than a two or three dozen metres at best) you might be lucky to do 5 km in a whole day though!
And then you add in the effect of hills, swamps and other obstacles....
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives.

Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect"

Mors ante pudorem
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-07-2018, 01:41 PM
Trooper's Avatar
Trooper Trooper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 92
Default

Finnish Jaeger infantry used bicycles to increase their marching speed during Continuation war. In early stages of continuation war, it was found that bicycle infantry could easily keep pace with Vickers and T-26 tanks that army used in first months of war.

Yes you could drive to ambush with your bicycle, but even then man driving a bike wasn’t easy target, after all bicycle marching speed (10-12 km/h) is good running speed and if you’re not very close to target, it’s likely that you miss. You don’t drive thru ambush with bicycle, you should immediately dismount and open fire . After that it was normal infantry action move, shoot and communicate.

In home front security units used bicycles to hunt parachute or long range patrol desantniki. There was not simply enough fuel, trucks or even horses for home guard units. Idea was simple, usually local security platoon tried to make educated guess in which direction desantniki unit tried to escape. After that security unit raced ahead desantniki unit. Usually only observation post could be established in open areas like rivers, fields or meadows. Idea was to ambush enemy patrol on open ground and usually other platoons and squads joined in combat after their heard sound of gunfire.

Today Finnish Defence Forces units are of course motorized. Only small tip of spear is mechanized and if you are not member of tank crew or panzer grenadier, you will do a lot of marching. Every member of armed forces should able to do 100 km a day bicycle march, even in air force or navy. Troops on bicycle wear their helmet, flak vest and combat vest. Backpack is on carrier and mortar crews have to even haul their mortars and ammo with them! Yes you can transport 81 mm tube if you use leather straps and attach it to bikes top tube.

It’s nice to see all those shiny trucks and APC:s when you return to your barracks while trying not to faint due exhaustion. Finnish officers firmly believe a motto “the more you sweat and suffer in training - the less you bleed in battle”.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-07-2018, 08:13 PM
WallShadow's Avatar
WallShadow WallShadow is offline
Ephemera of the Big Ka-Boom
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: near TMI
Posts: 560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raellus View Post
<SNIP>
Say a patrol or outpost comes under attack. Bicycle infantry can respond much faster that foot-bound infantry. They would operate like dragoons, riding to the battle area, but dismounting- out of effective small arms range of the enemy- to fight on foot. That's where BI can really shine.
And no "every 4th man is a horse-holder" nonsense.
__________________
"Let's roll." Todd Beamer, aboard United Flight 93 over western Pennsylvania, September 11, 2001.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-09-2018, 05:42 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
5 kph is pretty slow really - patrol speed which is slow enough to allow proper awareness of your surroundings.
Faster than that is quite possible (I've done around 10 kph fully loaded), but awareness drops dramatically and fatigue becomes much more of an issue. You REALLY don't want to be doing that sort of speed for more than a couple of hours.
Slower and you tend to get bored (again with a drop in awareness) EXCEPT in close terrain such as urban or jungle. In REALLY close terrain (can't see more than a two or three dozen metres at best) you might be lucky to do 5 km in a whole day though!
And then you add in the effect of hills, swamps and other obstacles....
Yes, it is. It is a standard movement rate (which also matches the game's base rates) that will allow you to arrive in a proper fighting condition. The players COULD move much faster (up to double the listed speed) if they succeed at a task;

To Move Faster Than Base Rate:

Roll under [the Average of STR & CON] + AGL on 1D20. The Difficulty is modified by the terrain (as well as distance traveled).

I also allow Drivers to either stretch their fuel OR "make time" by performing a Driving check.

If they are "Driving for Time," a successful roll under the needed number will reduce the time it takes to travel a given distance by 1% +2% per number rolled UNDER the required Target Number for the task. Outstanding Success (rolling 10 under) will reduce Time Required by 20% (or more at the GM's discretion).

if they are "Hypermiling" (driving for economy or range), they get 1% + 2% per point rolled under the required Target Number for the task. Outstanding Success (rolling 10 under the Target Number) will net an increase in Mileage of 20% or a reduction in Fuel Used of 20%.

Example: Joe is trying to conserve Fuel and needs to roll a 13 or Less on his Skill Check. He rolls a 9 scoring 4 points (13 - 9) on his Success. This translates into Joe saving 9% of the Fuel the vehicle would normally consume.

So that's a look at movement in my Twilight2000. Your Twilight may vary (of course).

Swag.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-09-2018, 06:50 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper View Post
Finnish Jaeger infantry used bicycles to increase their marching speed during Continuation war. In early stages of continuation war, it was found that bicycle infantry could easily keep pace with Vickers and T-26 tanks that army used in first months of war.

Yes you could drive to ambush with your bicycle, but even then man driving a bike wasn’t easy target, after all bicycle marching speed (10-12 km/h) is good running speed and if you’re not very close to target, it’s likely that you miss. You don’t drive thru ambush with bicycle, you should immediately dismount and open fire . After that it was normal infantry action move, shoot and communicate.

In home front security units used bicycles to hunt parachute or long range patrol desantniki. There was not simply enough fuel, trucks or even horses for home guard units. Idea was simple, usually local security platoon tried to make educated guess in which direction desantniki unit tried to escape. After that security unit raced ahead desantniki unit. Usually only observation post could be established in open areas like rivers, fields or meadows. Idea was to ambush enemy patrol on open ground and usually other platoons and squads joined in combat after their heard sound of gunfire.

Today Finnish Defence Forces units are of course motorized. Only small tip of spear is mechanized and if you are not member of tank crew or panzer grenadier, you will do a lot of marching. Every member of armed forces should able to do 100 km a day bicycle march, even in air force or navy. Troops on bicycle wear their helmet, flak vest and combat vest. Backpack is on carrier and mortar crews have to even haul their mortars and ammo with them! Yes you can transport 81 mm tube if you use leather straps and attach it to bikes top tube.

It’s nice to see all those shiny trucks and APC:s when you return to your barracks while trying not to faint due exhaustion. Finnish officers firmly believe a motto “the more you sweat and suffer in training - the less you bleed in battle”.
Are these the same guys who can SKI the enemy into the ground during the winter months? I know the Scandinavian countries are unmatched for Arctic and Mountain troops, I trained with those guys.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-23-2018, 05:35 PM
Raellus's Avatar
Raellus Raellus is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 2,588
Default

We've all known about the NVA's use of bicycles to move supplies down the Ho Chi Minh trail, but I was unaware that the ARVN was looking at "battle bikes" to move troops around.

http://warisboring.com/south-vietnam...ttle-bicycles/
__________________
Dulce bellum inexpertis. - Erasmus
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.