KFS Refit

[gamerguy]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

With any other faction, I would agree with you.

Not in the case of the Kentucky Free States, also known as the Rich Five.

Five Industrialist with a Robber Baron attitude went into cryosleep with two thousand loyal followers and preserved industrial capacity.

The KFS is the only functioning government above small town; and an actual Nation State. They have no problem using slaves and condemned criminals to salvage material out of radioactive hot spots or other lethal areas.

The KFS preserved the people with the knowledge and the skills to make or refine just about anything. It is the only other Tech level A group besides the Morrow Project, in game. While it is true they are scavengers, it is also true that they are manufacturers too. All very low rate and on a, as needed, schedule.

As far as the group it would have to be beyond Morrow Project in size and capacity. All the discussions we have had about keeping the MP off people's radar would be magnified by an order or more magnitude. PLUS it is all being put in a limited are as opposed to MP's dispersion. To pull this off they would be spending something on the order of a trillion dollars. So would TMP.

To manufacture what you are talking about you are talking a hundred thousand knowledgeable people plus all the dependants. You are building a new city somewhere which will quickly have an SSBN something pointed at it.

Two thousand loyal followers gets you the managers for your operation, not the people with the hands on skills. Can't get that from books.

I work in the manufacturing industry and know how many knowledgeable people it takes to do a little manufacturing. The scale you describe (M1s, unlimited ammo, planes) takes layers upon layers of interlocking skills and manufacturing infrastructure. Yes a handful of guys can probably cover all the steel hardening required (my area of knowledge). But you need groups of specialized maintenance personnel (who we just phone and wait a week or two to show up), guys making parts and supplies for our machines, a regular and reliable source of natural gas, propane, and all that entails (lots more people equipment companies, support companies), chemicals, steel, pipe, tooling, and on and on. All these people don't feed anyone but need to be fed as does their families, barbers, plumbers, ...

All this ain't hiding in some little hole in the ground. What you are describing is North America. Yes you are talking a dozen tanks not thousands but the infrastructure of that scale is needed for so much of it.

Unless it was my PMs interpretation I was under the impression Krell was running a large (multi-state) empire. Based on my interactions manufacture was limited to pre WWII tech from salvage.

Please note I was a player not a PM and had/have nothing but the original 1979? pre publication loose leaf binder manual. I made it a point not to ruin the fun of discovery.

My issue is keeping this from turning into high fantasy. You guys are getting so wrapped up in the tech gizmos to very high levels of detail but to my mind are missing "the big picture". I may be wrong, it happened once before, all I am trying to do is have you stop and think about the real world implications. TMP is frankly a science fantasy game. Everything BEM is supposed to have brought back is that so truthfully letting some other faction(s) have some degree of it in the game is fair I suppose. I can live with TMPs goodies just in my mind it was supposed to be the special ones. How long before NK had a buried clan of Kim group, etc..

If you also hold the assumption BEM knew the project was going on in 150 years and lied about the 6 month to 5 year time frame then another can of worms is both opened and closed.

The order of manufacturing support you envision is orders of magnitude beyond TMP. TMP made HAM suits, the Mars vehicles, sci one yes and had to hide those in plain site as "failed prototypes". We dumped them in the ocean/desert/buried them when they failed. BUT TMP wasn't making the steel, machine tools, optics, electronics, chemicals... these were bought from XYZ corp. Now you have to create XYZ corp as part of KFS because there is no XYZ to buy from anymore.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by gamerguy

The order of manufacturing support you envision is orders of magnitude beyond TMP. TMP made HAM suits, the Mars vehicles, sci one yes and had to hide those in plain site as "failed prototypes". We dumped them in the ocean/desert/buried them when they failed. BUT TMP wasn't making the steel, machine tools, optics, electronics, chemicals... these were bought from XYZ corp. Now you have to create XYZ corp as part of KFS because there is no XYZ to buy from anymore.

You hold a much different view of TMP than I think some here do. BEM approached various industrialist to form the Counsel of Tomorrow (CoT). TMP was just a small thing that CoT built using a fraction of their vast mining, manufacturing, research and development capacity. Some of the gear for TMP came from working examples and plans that BEM brought back back from a future and were duplicated by CoT skunkworks. As far as I can tell, TMP just selected and trained people to use cool gear made by the CoT. TMP really doesn't make things itself. So the CoT having members like US Steel or Nucor is not impossible. You can add Bethlehem Steel if you like the 3rd edition timeline. Given that and organizations that have a large manufacturing presence like Boeing, Lockheed, GM, Ford, Motorola, Raytheon, Bristol-Meyer, Pfizer, Dow Corning; steel pre-war and manufacturing capability is not much of an issue. Granted, CoT members knew that most of their employees were going to die, but thanks to their efforts the reconstruction had a chance.

[gamerguy]

Fair enough so TMP is even a smaller entity. More of a design house which outsources manufacturing. KFS has be all the above.

[RandyT0001]

Gamerguy, basically you are saying that the highest technology level in limited use would max out at mid-19th century. Most areas would be stuck in mid-18th century to early 19th century, correct?

Do you think that there would be small, isolated communities (less than 20sq miles controlled area) with very little trade or do you think that there would be bigger city-states (few thousands of sq miles of domain) with greater trade along rivers, maintained dirt/gravel roads and early railroads with early steam engines?

[gamerguy]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

Gamerguy, basically you are saying that the highest technology level in limited use would max out at mid-19th century. Most areas would be stuck in mid-18th century to early 19th century, correct?

Do you think that there would be small, isolated communities (less than 20sq miles controlled area) with very little trade or do you think that there would be bigger city-states (few hundred sq miles of domain) with greater trade along rivers, maintained dirt/gravel roads and early railroads with early steam engines?

Good questions. I think the "background" tech level would be mid 19th C. Think of the steam engines which travelled around providing the mechanical muscle in the mid 19th to early 20th C. Smaller towns could have a steam driven power house providing electricity to the local few along with a basic water supply, for example.

As to trade I think that is based on law levels more than tech. As I see it "governments like KFS, Krell, Maxwell, etc. would allow freer trade within their borders. Transport using steam trains or steam road vehicles would be able to travel over areas. Slow though. Gypsy truckers? Steel road wheels, steam power plants and travel in convoys like the pioneers settling the west or convoys plying the north atlantic in WWI/II or the caravans of the silk road. Strength, and safety, in numbers with hired guns or better still military muscle as members of the gypsy tribe(s) themselves.

IIRC there are a number of city states based around universities. Also based around viable logical resource extraction and purification locations. Think the road warrior's gasoline clan. No pipelines for transport so tanker trucks, or lake freighters, gypsy sailors.

I think the small isolated communities could only exist with a resource to provide income for protection or in some kind of mutual support organization, a proto state perhaps? They would have to be pretty isolated with not much around them so few people would be willing to spend the resources to get to them. This assumes bands of roving thugs with no resources except extraction of resources from those they raid.

Then do those thugs provide a reason for the communities to band together into prototype mini states providing mutual self defense to form, or do the thugs themselves become the organ of the state and control these isolated communities building themselves into the next Krell, KFS, etc.? To me the first groups would be most likely to form something akin to democratic or feudal government over time. The later feudal or dictatorships.

Makes you think about how the larger groups started and allowed or were forced into some form of government.

[RandyT0001]

Gamerguy, going beyond mid-19th century tech runs into a significant 'brick wall' of advancement. Want to know what it is? Natural rubber. Natural rubber only comes from a large tropical tree which the great powers of the mid 19th century - British, French, German, Japanese, and American set up plantations to meet supply demands for growing and development nations. Any rubber like object that did not include natural rubber generally did not last for long, breaking down by use or deterioration within a year or less of time. No rubber hoses, no tires, etc. for greater advancement.

If you have significant states in North America - Maxwell's Militia, the confederacy of the Rich Five states (I reject the KFS module because the author based it on a unrealistic, fascist society from a book he had read), Texas Republic, and Frozen Chosen you have trade, between them and with overseas nations that have rebuilt or established themselves after 150 years. To me the MP teams do not wake up in uncivilized lands but in an unknown and unfamiliar civilization of the post war world reality.

[Matt W]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

Gamerguy, going beyond mid-19th century tech runs into a significant 'brick wall' of advancement. Want to know what it is? Natural rubber. Natural rubber only comes from a large tropical tree which the great powers of the mid 19th century - British, French, German, Japanese, and American set up plantations to meet supply demands for growing and development nations. Any rubber like object that did not include natural rubber generally did not last for long, breaking down by use or deterioration within a year or less of time. No rubber hoses, no tires, etc. for greater advancement.

True, but artificial rubber was manufactured on an industrial scale in about 1910 (Say...TL D to TLC. This is the Tech Level of the New Confederacy) You can also get rubber from several different plants. This includes dandelions, "prickly lettuce", and guayule (which grows in Texas). Maybe the New Confederacy plantations grow rubber? That may be more plausible than cotton

The KFS would use the technique developed by Lebedev in the 1930's
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Lebedev_(chemist))

Ethanol to Rubber! That should be useful in Kentucky

If you have significant states in North America - Maxwell's Militia, the confederacy of the Rich Five states (I reject the KFS module because the author based it on a unrealistic, fascist society from a book he had read), Texas Republic, and Frozen Chosen you have trade, between them and with overseas nations that have rebuilt or established themselves after 150 years. To me the MP teams do not wake up in uncivilized lands but in an unknown and unfamiliar civilization of the post war world reality.

I agree, and this explains the existence of nomadic groups like Gypsy Truckers, Bikers and Wanderers (possibly others). But don't knock the "defend a village from bandits". That sort of storyline is a useful beginning to a campaign

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Matt W

I agree and this explains the existence of Gypsy Truckers, Bikers and Wanderers (possibly others). But the "defend a village from bandits" storyline is a useful beginning to a campaign

Liberation at Riverton!

Anyone, anyone?

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

Gamerguy, basically you are saying that the highest technology level in limited use would max out at mid-19th century. Most areas would be stuck in mid-18th century to early 19th century, correct?

Do you think that there would be small, isolated communities (less than 20sq miles controlled area) with very little trade or do you think that there would be bigger city-states (few thousands of sq miles of domain) with greater trade along rivers, maintained dirt/gravel roads and early railroads with early steam engines?

For most survivors about 1850's-60's. But Rich Five plus survivors, and salvage and fusion produced petroleum equals the resources to copy or make a tank more simple than a monkey M! or an M60A3. The Rich 5 might have been defense contractors who made the snake eater cryo tubes and had other extensive defense industries that could replace Watervliet Arsenal. The M68 is a late 1950's design The R% should have reference books and engineers who can mutter this in their sleep( I knew one from Lake City, cancer took him early this year).

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

For most survivors about 1850's-60's. But Rich Five plus survivors, and salvage and fusion produced petroleum equals the resources to copy or make a tank more simple than a monkey M! or an M60A3. The Rich 5 might have been defense contractors who made the snake eater cryo tubes and had other extensive defense industries that could replace Watervliet Arsenal. The M68 is a late 1950's design The R% should have reference books and engineers who can mutter this in their sleep( I knew one from Lake City, cancer took him early this year).

First. Sorry for your friend. That is no way to go.

The only thing that make Watervliet Arsenal special is the permission to make guns of those calibers. The power hammers, electric arc forges, mandrels, and lathes large enough to do that job exist in other heavy industry. Building locomotives, for example.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

First. Sorry for your friend. That is no way to go.

The only thing that make Watervliet Arsenal special is the permission to make guns of those calibers. The power hammers, electric arc forges, mandrels, and lathes large enough to do that job exist in other heavy industry. Building locomotives, for example.

If companies can work D2 tool steel and other durable metals, they can work ordnance steel.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by gamerguy

The order of manufacturing support you envision is orders of magnitude beyond TMP. TMP made HAM suits, the Mars vehicles, sci one yes and had to hide those in plain site as "failed prototypes". We dumped them in the ocean/desert/buried them when they failed. BUT TMP wasn't making the steel, machine tools, optics, electronics, chemicals... these were bought from XYZ corp. Now you have to create XYZ corp as part of KFS because there is no XYZ to buy from anymore.

The Morrow Project isn't a manufacturer before the WAR. That is why they need significant stockpile of goods for the 3-5 year plan.

Bruce persuaded a group of industrialists to pool the money and resources to make the Morrow Project. Massive multinational corporations that had the means to divert or "lose" resources with little notice.

Krell is a Warlord. A version of Genghis Khan. His "Empire" is wherever his people happen to be.

The Kentucky Free States (aka The Rich Five) IS some of the former industrialists from the council of Tomorrow. They had the cryosleep technology and other systems, and the probably War date (19 November 1989) per 3rd edition. The "Two Thousand" is two thousand families with nothing more defining how large those families were. They awoke 10 years after the War and through force assumed control of the territory surrounding their hidden fortress/bunker/enclave. That may possibly be more than one (one for each family) and more dividing the Two Thousand up around different industries. The R5 like the TMP buried and preserved their merchant empire awaiting a day when they can run things (government) the way the benefits themselves.

Yes, the R5 are running the University at Bowling Green, Ky and have for more than 100 years. Loyal KFS citizens attend and very select few career paths.

The KFS is wholesale dismantling and salvaging anything pre-War in their area and taking this to Louisville, KY. That is the heart of their manufacturing empire with thousands of people doing thousands of things.

The KFS is a mean, dangerous, fascist State and probably the only one with the ability to affect things beyond their borders.

The KFS is XYZ corp, GHJ, YJK, ADE, VBN, and more.

Think of say, General Dynamics, hid 1% of its personnel and build capability per year for 20 years. Now and Kraft foods, Dow chemical, Monsanto, Shell Oil, IBM, and others.

KFS is THE big boogey man. Krell is really a minor distraction. A threat to keep the players moving and make for some drama. The KFS is a threat to the Project and will not be persuaded to go back to the "Good Ole Days" of the American Republic.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by gamerguy

Please note I was a player not a PM and had/have nothing but the original 1979? pre publication loose leaf binder manual. I made it a point not to ruin the fun of discovery.

Ah. Well then.

You are missing a lot of information. 3rd editions 1983 publication; also the modules "Bullets & Bluegrass" and "Fall Back" that host most of the game canon material for the Kentucky Free States.